From a reader on the UCG Budget Cuts thread:
We are being told HOW it is.
What do you think?
Gideon said...
Reading contributions herein reminds me of the ''good' old WCG days: gossip, backstabbing, slander, church politics, following men + hearing Armstrong over preached + Christ UNDERPREACHED! Wow! You blokes/girls really go at it! It's still as I remember it, paraphrased: "Are you for this minister or THAT minister, GTA or HA?" Law was taught, nothing wrong with that; WEIGHTIER MATTERS OF GOD'S law less preached. Folks, settle down, some deep breaths, have a 'cuppa'let me disseminate some facts to you.
Disclaimer: I'm NOT member of any church, was WCG + attended UCG about one year till 2002. History teaches us: ignoring history's lessons results in repeating errors. History of the sabbath keeping church[es] of God from Dugger down shows the same track record as WCG + others as described by you folk. Politics, slander, divisions, schisms, enmities are mentioned in the Bible: IN GOD'S Church at that time. Nothing new under the sun. It seems to me that what outwardly appears simple, following two great commandments:[1] Love God with all our spirit, mind, brain + body. ]2]Love neighbour as ourself. Proves in reality very hard for humans to live. My observation/experience in WCG was that brotherly love generally, was lacking; there were some folk living true brotherly love there. Post WCG I learnt that this was an area I was sadly lacking in. UCG, my experience, was a far more 'balanced' church.....
H.Armstrong + Dugger= friction=breakaway..H.A + GTA =friction = splinter..Tkach WCG + Meridith along with several others=LCG PCG/UCG/etc, etc adinfinitum. It's the history of the churches of God. Still it continues! Surely, we may ask this isn't a history of TRUE CHRISTIANITY! Ergo,is this a history of non true Christianity? Or is this a history of GOD'S TRUE CHURCH being divided, weakened, confused + often defeated by Satan + false ministers?
Politics, slander, gossip, adulating men + putting mammon before God Mt. 6:19 -21+ 24. Aren't God's way. Most folk of mature age, who've 'lived' in the 'real' world. Know from experience, as do I. That in NON churches of God as mentioned herein: friction exists, along with all the other baggage + foibles of human nature. Sporting clubs, lodges + charity groups experience the same garbage! True Christians however war against Satan + therefore against our own human nature within ourselves. How Christian, righteous + spiritually sound [or not] any church is depends on its members...Over to you folks!
And here we are, the WCG gone, 700+ splinters and the Church of God Seventh Day going strong after 150 years.
ReplyDeleteShouldn't it make anyone wonder what was wrong with Herbert Armstrong?
The ucg and the rest of the "viruses" should be stamped out for the sake of the worlds own good.
ReplyDeleteBut we need not do a thing. They will do it to themselves.
Amen.
I had to read this several times to get anything at all from it, but I think he just told us that dissension was a normal part of life and that the love in a Christian's life is supposed to overwhelm it. Somewhere buried in that chaotic grammatic structure and in those run on sentences, I think he just told us to get over it.
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First of all he needs to learn to be more concise in what he is saying.
ReplyDeleteHe seems to be minimizing the dysfunctional nature of many COGs, especially the major ones, by saying that other churches and other organizations also experience problems that the COGs have had.
That does not change the fact that Armstrongism is a cult. Many COGs use authoritarian and coersive means to force members to act in the way prescribed by its leaders. He has not proved that those of us who left Armstrongism are wrong. We are right to leave it.
I find it strange he chooses to be so defensive of Armstrongite COGs considering that he seems to say that he is no longer attending any church.
ReplyDelete"Or is this a history of GOD'S TRUE CHURCH being divided, weakened, confused + often defeated by Satan + false ministers?"
That is basically my guess.
The vast, overwhelming majority of the approximately 666 WCG splinters and slivers are obviously false scams designed by Satan and his demons to confuse people and waste their time, energy and money supporting frauds.
The "useful idiots" that Satan and his demons set up as the ministers/prophets/apostles/witnesses/etc. in these WCG splinters and slivers probably think they are just in it for the paycheck and the power to abuse people. They probably do not grasp the big picture of what is really going on and what Satan and his demons really have them there for.
One of the things we've discovered, Redfox, is that there are people who state that they have left the org, or don't attend any of the splinters, and then it comes out later in conversation that they became what we call nonaligned or independent. They keep all of the Armstrong doctrines privately at home because they found HWA style church government as practiced in some ACOGs, or some of the dishonesty and bad ethics in the the others to be oppressive. Ron Dart's ministry was dedicated to these folks, a kind of a "home schooled Armstrongism", if you would. If this is true of Gideon, It could partially explain where he is coming from.
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+ + + + + + = huh?
ReplyDeleteSorry you guys couldn't read it. It is rambling, but made sense to me anyway. Here is what I got out of it:
ReplyDeleteThis person has a WCG/UCG background, but quit attending 11 years ago because he/she concluded that since the followers of Armstrongism, by and large, demonstrated no more of the qualities of Jesus for all their "churchgoing" than if they had been members of some type of secular social club that met on Saturdays instead, these COG people had no bona fides to suspect that they are christians at all, let alone the only TRUE christians on the planet. Therefore, the COGs have no reason to suspect that they are true or christian or churches. This person realized that despite the "philadelphia" advertising, Armstrongism hadn't helped he/she to learn anything about brotherly love, like it had promised. Checking in 11 years later, these people still haven't learned a thing. Revisiting the decision, was it still justifiable? Absolutely! That's the "fact" really intended to be "disseminated."
I must concur. However, Armstrongites must learn this lesson the hard way. They're never going to learn it from someone else's experience. Herbert's magic spell is still far too strong. It's a shame, really, the way false religions interfere with people's ability to learn.
Byker Bob,
ReplyDeleteI suspected he is an Independent Armstrongite. When he talks of how other non-COG organizations have problem to me it sounds as though he is minimizing what happened in the COGs. They did it too, he seems to be saying in essence.
But it must be said that his comment is confusing and not concisely stated. It is no wonder confusion could arise from his comment.
What I found strange is that despite not attending a COG he still, it seems to me, chooses to defend the COGs from criticism.
BTW, keep up your good work. Many times I find your comments enlightening and sometimes I quote your words on my blog. Keep it up.
"Or is this a history of GOD'S TRUE CHURCH being divided, weakened, confused and often defeated by Satan + false ministers?"
ReplyDeleteUmm...that is to assume the WCG and its harlot daughter churches make up "GOD'S TRUE CHURCH" when the facts of the matter prove demonstrably otherwise! For instance, HWA repeatedly accused the RCC and Protestant churches of comprising Babylon the Great of Revelation 17 based on its history! And yet the history of the WCG (even starting with its parent the COG 7th Day) parallels the RCC and Protestant churches ie splinter and schism after splinter and schism! To add insult to injury HWA then compiled a hodge-podge of doctrines that on the surface seem to be Biblical and Christian truth (eg triple tithing, Wednesday crucifixion & Saturday resurrection, Sabbath, water baptism & laying on of hands ritual, petrine doctrine, FOT pilgrim feast, British-Israelism, etc) but when one studies the Bible without the biased and distorted lens of HWA literature you find that either HWA was teaching lies or else he was not giving you the complete picture! So you'd naively end up believing his view was correct & be totally ignorant of the arguments on the other side of the debate that'd prove what he taught was actually false and ironically unbiblical!
And HWA was trying to pass the WCG off as "GOD'S TRUE CHURCH"?!?!?! Surely you couldn't be serious?!?!?!
One of the most deliciously stupid defenses of HWA (and others near the top of the armstrongist pyramid) is the "David Defense"
ReplyDeleteSo, now a new one is the "Sporting clubs, lodges + charity groups Defense"?
Shouldn't a person expect more of the leaders of Christian organizations, who are ostensibly "spirit-filled"?
Oh, I know, I know. If Christian leaders behave badly, it's all Satan's fault, LOL!
What's really humorous is that with the UCG's split, with about half of the ministers leaving to join the COGaWA splinter, now EACH side (both the UCG and COGaWA) can claim it's the OTHER splinter that has all the ministers who succumbed to Satan's wiles, and that THEIR leaders are now 99.33% pure.
(But, both those in the UCG and the COGaWA will have to admit that they were once in a church that had 50% of it's ministers under Satan's control!)
Blah, blah, blah.
ReplyDeleteAnother insightful "bloke" trying to tell people how it is.
Thanks, but nobody's asking.
We're seeing more and more apologists as it all becomes more and more indefensible.
ReplyDelete"Fragmentation" pointed out that the Armstrongists are now claiming that Herbert Armstrong wasn't a false prophet because he wasn't a prophet. As each position becomes totally indefensible, the champions of the Cult of Herbert Armstrong march ever onward in their mission to do damage control.
And as for "well, it's the same as everybody else" it would be good to read "Moral Mazes" by Robert Jackall for the full effect where now the WCG and its legacy has adopted the worst of the corporate model and implemented it badly without one shred of what anyone could call "spiritual".
Excuses, excuses, excuses.
Man up.
That's just the way it is, so just get over it...Satan and his demons, you know?... And, since it's possible to have "a war in heaven", it might not be as good a place as it's advertised to be. Who wants to live in a war zone? And, is that the "third heaven"? When the angels are flying through the air with their scythes to gather the wheat and burn the chaff...place of safety...rapture...and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Live in a city 1500 miles in width, length and height (Rev. 21:16). Tall city...way above the Directv satellites...
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