A rerun of Dave Pack's expectations of his ministers:
Get out your pen and paper guys, you have some work to do before you jump ship to Joshua Packland. Those of you ordained in the old WCG are guilty of dereliction of duty and will be held accountable!
Important Questionnaire
A crucial series of questions present themselves before every shepherd of any rank. As you read, think hard—very, very hard!—about your original calling to serve in one or more offices under the sure guidance and direction of Christ as Head of His Church. Ask yourself each difficult question today’s circumstances require you to answer. Do not permit yourself to look away from hard realities now confronting all of God’s people.
In every age of His Church, Christ’s sheep have needed shepherds. Those with special leadership training and experience from the past will be held accountable in a greater way than all others (Jms. 3:1-2). Dereliction of duty by those “to whom much was given” will mean that “much will be required” of them some day (Luke 12:48). Take a deep breath and think of yourself standing before the “judgment seat” of Christ (II Cor. 5:10). You will be forced to give answers to HIM then if you are unwilling to demand them of YOURSELF now.
The millions constituting the physical remnant of modern Israel returning from captivity are foretold to come “weeping and loathing themselves” for having rejected God’s Way (Jer. 50:4-5; Ezek. 6:8-9). What about the spiritual remnant, who once knew that Way, but largely left it? Will/does this describe you? Read the above verses, and then read the following questions slowly, carefully and prayerfully. They are the biggest way that the ministry should “consider their ways.” Consider writing out the answers:
Did some of you lazy ass ministers retire? God is going to hold you accountable for that! Bad boy! Bad, bad, bad boy!
(1) Retirement—Mr. Armstrong taught that retirement is not an option for a true minister.Did you leave the career ministry and get another job? Your ass is grass too!
- Did you retire? If so, when, and why did you think yourself an exception?
(2) Non-Career—Mr. Armstrong taught that “going non-career” is not an option for a true minister.Did you ever dare to question doctrine or the right of HWA to set doctrine? If you did you ass is grass again!
- Did you do this? If so, why did you think yourself an exception?
(3) Established Doctrine and TraditionWere you a liberal pussy boy in the 80's and 90's?
- In what doctrines or traditions do you believe Mr. Armstrong “got it wrong”? (Include all areas—be specific.)
(4) Did you actively resist false doctrine in your ministry?—or give safe sermons where you disagreed? (Be specific.)
Did you agree with some of the changes Tkach Sr. brought about? If you did your ass is grass again!
- During the liberal years of the 1970s?
- In the WCG in the late 1980s and early 90s?
- In your splinter or splinters?
(5) On each doctrine where you came to agree with God’s enemies—either Joe Tkach, those who assisted his destruction or your splinter leader—why did you agree?Why would you even assume that I want you back in the church under me? You pathetic worthless scum!
(6) Why should you still be considered for the ministry in God’s Church?
- Why should God’s flock ever again be entrusted to your care?
- Are you prepared to re-win brethren’s trust, including brethren now here whom you will likely also pastor? What about re-winning the trust of Headquarters?
Have you been diligently searching for the one true church that is building buildings and using cable TV? These are important indications on who has the worlds most superfantabulous COG EVER!
(7) Did you actively pursue where God’s Truth, Church, Work, College and Government were found?Have you ever read any of MY propaganda on how I formed this church and studied at HWA's feet?
- If not, why not? Be specific.
- If so, how hard? Be specific.
(8) Have you read or viewed any of our Splinter Explanation Packet material?Do you believe that I, Dave, am THE man who now heads up the worlds most superfantabulous COG EVER???????
- What items? Ÿ Did you at any time hear my “30 Reasons” sermons of 1993 and 1994? (Parts 1, 2 or 3?)
(9) Do you now believe again that Christ works solely through one unified organization?Are you submissive to church government? Are you too stupid to not see that my church is the only church that has it??????
(10) In light of government(s) you followed, how do you see God’s government today?Are you still worshiping at the altar of Herbert Armstrong? In order for me to be Joshua, Herb had to be Zerub, get that through your thick heads!
(11) Have you returned to believing that Mr. Armstrong was the final “Elijah”?—and Zerubbabel?Have you forgotten that only the Dear Leader can make decisions in the church? No council of elders, no board of directors, NO ONE but MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
(12) Have you returned to believing that truth only enters the Church through apostles as Mr. Armstrong said so often?
(13) Do you believe I Corinthians 12:18 applies to you with no qualifications added?
(14) Do you believe there can be exceptions to I Corinthians 1:10 and 13—regarding members or ministers in the Church?Are you willing to let me humiliate you into submission?
(15) Are you willing to temporarily or permanently become an associate pastor?Are you willing to let me publicly humiliate you in front of the church until you kneel at my feet begging forgiveness?
(16) Are you willing to be excluded from the ministry until you requalify?Are you ready to acknowledge that I have the capacity to add new doctrine to the church and to not be questioned about it?
(17) Are you familiar with the new teachings that God has added to His Church on top of what Mr. Armstrong taught?Are you willing to go top my reeducation camp where you will be trained to discard anything you think you know and learn MY way?
- Which ones?—and do you agree?
(18) If your ordination(s) is(are) invalid, are you interested in being re-trained for Christ’s true ministry?Are you stupid enough to believe that you have a voice in ANYTHING or that I even care what you think?
(19) Do you believe ministers should be able to voice opinions to others about:Are you a weak effeminate pussy-boy who has betrayed his calling?
- Where Headquarters is “wrong”?
- What Mr. Armstrong taught/said/did “wrong”?
- What Mr. Pack teaches/says/does “wrong”?
- Where your boss is “wrong” or harsh, etc.?
- Where you disagree doctrinally?
(20) Do you consider yourself as having been (rate yourself from 5 being best to 0 being worst):Why are you so stupid?
- Weak
- Cowardly
- Slothful
- Covetous
- Confused
- Compromising
- Foolish
- Political (And did you ever “run for office” in a splinter?)
- Heretical
- Deceitful
- Easily deceived
- Betrayed your calling
(21) Why did you lose the ability to “discern good from evil” (Heb. 5:13-14)?—and for so long?You really are stupid if you think I am going to give you back your ranking once you join my church.
(22) What do you consider to be your ministerial rank?Are you prepared to spend the rest of your life begging forgiveness for the messes you have created? Since I am Mr. Perfect and have no sin in my life, I will be here to guide you down that path.
Ÿ Evangelist Ÿ Pastor Ÿ Preaching Elder Ÿ Local Elder Ÿ Local Church Elder Ÿ “Elder” Ÿ Ministerial Assistant
(23) Are you prepared to dedicate the rest of your life to serving God’s flock and fixing completely the horrific mess you helped cause in so many lives?Are you intelligent enough to recognize that I AM an apostle of God? If Herb could be one, I want to be one too!
(24) In light of how you once saw Mr. Armstrong, do you still recognize the fruits of a true apostle when you see one?
- If you say yes, why did you follow Joe Tkach until he destroyed everything?
(25) Describe your spiritual condition today. (Also, rate your temperature from 0-10, with 10 the highest.)
(26) What 5 biggest lessons did you learn from and since the apostasy? (In order of importance.)Did you fast before you answered all of these vitally important questions?
(27) How many times did you fast for 24 hours (or more) before answering these questions?How many times did you pray to me for one hour or more?
(28) How many times have you prayed over Psalm 51 on your knees?Since you are all weak impotent little men who could not take a stand on doctrine, how are you going to prove to me that you will accept ALL of my teachings without question?
(29) Having now long abandoned many doctrines you said you would never leave, how would you convince Headquarters that this time you “mean it” if you intend to now “hold fast” (Rev. 3:11)?
(30) What have been your pastoral actions during the troubles of recent weeks and months?Are you prepared to be reeducated for one year or more, just like Dale Schurter was?
(31) Are you prepared to spend a full year (or more) catching up with all you must unlearn, relearn, and learn new?Do you feel any responsibility for being a minister of a splinter group that has been cut off from my god? It is all YOUR fault that the members were disfellowshipped.
(32) What personal responsibility do you feel for the deplorable condition into which God’s people have sunk?How are you going to prove to ME that you are spirit led?
(33) How would you prove that you are still Spirit-led?—or were ever Spirit-led?
(34) What date did you leave the WCG, and why did you remain beyond May 1995, if this is the case?
(35) What did you do after reading the article “God’s People Back Together—SOON!”?All of you weak impotent little men who pretend to ministers in the splinter groups you need to be aware that you will be REQUIRED to fill out a similar questionnaire in September when you try to join up with me. Your wives are required to answer these questions too, as long as it pertains to submissive women's rules.
FINALLY: You are NOT to discuss this or share it in anyway with ANYONE (expect with me, of course)
In due course, you will be asked to fill out a questionnaire that looks very similar to this list.
*No answers that are blank, “I’m not sure” or short responses will then be permitted.
*All wives should answer the questions, including every point applicable. (Some are obviously to be skipped.)
*Aware of recent history, and the lies and deceit of so many men and leaders, DO NOT LIE TO YOURSELF!
*You are encouraged not to discuss or in any way share your answers with anyone other than God and your spouse.
This is self- defeating. He's just limited his pool of ministers to zero. I'm sure he will provide a path around the obvious for any high profile ministers from the past who could bring additional status to his organization.
ReplyDeleteI hope he keeps right on talking, because every word he types secure him firmly within the asshole profile.
BB
You ever have one of those moments when there are just... NO WORDS?
ReplyDeleteYeah, this is one of them.
Actually, this list is more telling then anything if you really look closely at it and examine it!
Wow!
ReplyDeleteI dont think the German Gesatapo ask questions this hard when they invaded a country. Good thing they have laws in this country against torture chambers and forced confessions.
Joe Moeller
Cody, WY
Clearly the work of a man who knows how to win friends and influence people.
ReplyDelete(33) How would you prove that you are still Spirit-led?—or were ever Spirit-led?
ReplyDeleteThis is one that even Dave Pack himself cannot answer correctly.
EPIC FAIL for Dave Joshua Pack!
I agree with you BB. No real man would ever submit to such a simplistic black and white accounting of his experience with WCG and all the foolishness and chaos associated with it. Dave would not be able to answer his own questions and come out smelling like a rose. Well he would in his mind but he tends to remember himself differently than others do.
ReplyDeleteWith these questions Dave has helped me solidify why I would never want to ever be associated with any COG . Aside from having grown up in both better science versus the Bronze Age Bible and the actual orgins and problems with the scriptures that many simply refuse to address or have some twisted apologetic for, working around, much less for Dave Pack would be hell. Ask those many who have already quit him.
The common themes are:
Temper
Financial games with tithe accounts
Pitting one against the other, husband against wife etc
Spying
Sowing discord
Lying
and all the stuff TeleJoshuas do.
I would like the names and phone numbers of any man who submits to this little exam. I'd like to meet a man who could share all their inner thoughts that no doubt they would be making up to appease the High Priest to get a job.
This really does limit Dave's ministerial options because now we all know what any man, falsely so called would have had to do to get back into David C Christ's good graces.
What a mockery of reality.
Dave has created a TERRIBLE Dilemma for any suck up fake minister that wants in. Now we know the process. He could have at least kept it to himself and in house but this will prove to be his biggest blunder of all. Well except from thinking he is spoken of in the Bible or Haggai had him in mind in the 500's BCE.
ReplyDeleteDave wants the glory days back. This means that anyone that wants back also wants those days of pay, cars, respect not earned (there were many very sincere and respectable men and wives in WCG in my experience. You just never heard of them and they have since disappeard in disgust and lessons learned) and such.
I love "Are you willing to be an Associate Pastor?"
Dave was made an associate pastor under Steve Botha in NYC because of Dave's antics and offenses to people in Buffalo. Finally WCG had had enough of DCP. Ask Steve how well Dave was willing to be an Associate Pastor. Read Dave's won autobiography where he moans and bitches about his unfair reduction in RANK to an associate Pastor.
DAVE NEVER DID WHAT HE DEMANDS NOW OF OTHERS. I think his sub conscious mind wants revenge.
Steve told me when I asked how Dave was doing. He said, "Oh..fine...and he'll go back to his old ways when he gets free of this."
Prophecy comes alive.
Talk about mental castration! Dave is a sadist. How any mature male could submit to something like this is beyond my comprehension.
ReplyDeleteWell, Dennis, to see what is in store for any of Dave's recertified ministers, all we need to do is take apart that word "associate". The first part is "ass". It's what they will become, and what they will be kissing. The second is "O". That is what they will repeat to themselves mentally many times in the future as they are rebuffed and are biting the insides of their lips to manage their anger at Dave. The last is "iate", or literally "I ate!", which is what they will be thinking sometime in the future after they come up on the wrong side of some minor or obscure point with Dave and are cast aside.
ReplyDeleteIn a sense, and I hate to say it, many of these ministers he is trying to attract are already just plain wolves anyway. If they go with Dave, they will just be switching packs (pun intentional). Perhaps God will use this to sort out and punish the worst ones by turning them over to Dave.
BB
(36) How much is your splinter paying you? Are you willing to live on half as much while continuously praising Mr. Pack for being the generous and beneficent apostle that he is?
ReplyDeleteDave Pack is lying about the first two questions in his questionnaire.
ReplyDelete"1) Retirement—Mr. Armstrong taught that retirement is not an option for a true minister.
"Did you retire? If so, when, and why did you think yourself an exception?
"(2) Non-Career—Mr. Armstrong taught that “going non-career” is not an option for a true minister.
"Did you do this? If so, why did you think yourself an exception?"
Dave Pack is lying.
I was reading some issues of the Pastor's Report in early 1979 and I read HWA and Meredith discussing this very issue.
They did NOT say that any minister who retired was no longer a true minister.
They simply said any minister who retired could no longer claim the benefits or authority of being a minister.
They did NOT say any minister who went "non-career" is not a true minister.
They simply announced that that particular option was abolished and that (after a transition period) this option could no longer be used by ministers.
Dave Pack is lying about HWA.
These questions have the effect of beating down the applicant, and hence increasing Daves power level and superiority. The overbearing standard has the result of exalting himself to god status in the eyes of the applicant. My minister use to play similar games with me.
ReplyDeleteAs Christ said, why doesn't Dave look at the log (make that a forest) in his own eye, and why doesn't he apply the same standards to himself, rather than shunning them like a good Pharisee.
Another example of an idiot minister who doesn't want to be a counsellor, but a master,
Actually I'd still like to know what happened to Dale Schurter when he entered Dave's atmosphere. Did he just pass close and go out the other side? Did he burn up upon re-entry? Did he scatter himself across Dave's landscape in pieces never to be found? Where in the world is Dale Schurter?????
ReplyDeleteAs for Dave's ministry, and it could just be me, I can't name one minister that works for him on salary in a church area. Are there such men. Dave never seems to mention them by name in his writings. Of course he'd have to be talking about someone else besides himself I realize, but who are these men?
2.21 PM you've lost me. Of course a retired minister is no longer a minister. So what's with the qualifications. Any one who retires, no longer has that position. I have come across former work colleagues, and had to firmly tell them that they are no longer a boss or similar. Retired bosses carrying on as if they are still bosses, is common in my experience. Once bosses retire, they are just another commoner. Their old perks like playing king of the mountain, or pecking on people are gone. They are no longer more equal than others, they are now just a peasant.
ReplyDeleteLooks like Banned is recycling posts from a number of years ago. Thats ok, even television networks have "Summer Re-Runs" too! LOL!
ReplyDeleteAbout the retirement issue: one of the perks of an academic professorship is that the person gets to keep the title after retirement. After we retire, though, we add the word "Emeritus" (for a man) or "Emerita" (for a woman), as in "Professor Emeritus of English," which is my title now.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the COGs could adopt the same designation to indicate ministers who draw a retirement check instead of a salary and who have become just another commoner, as Anon 6:50 AM puts it. As a matter of fact, the qualifier "Emerita/us" reminds everyone how lame the current status is. The prefix "e-" is a form of "ex-", meaning "out of" or "formerly." You recognize the root "merit," of course. The whole meaning, then, is obviously *used to be worth something."
On second thought, the COGs need some other word to designate retirement status. "Emeritus" would be stretching things.
3.43 PM So the big people still hang on to their fancy titles (with the qualifier Emerita/as) even after they retire. Another example of the big boys rigging the rules of the game. The people who live in the real world of private enterprise, get no such perk. A company director of CEO after he/she retires, is a nobody.
ReplyDeleteTo me, only the president of the United States should still have the same title after retirement.
ReplyDeleteWhat about those who have engaged in blogging & Pack-bashing?
How will they fare in the "Great Regathering"?
When they will be hauled on the carpet.
(after a ride in the Gold & Mahogany elevator to the top floor)
Question 37:
Have you ever looked up the Apostle's residence on Zillow?
If so, what do you think? (give details in space provided)
3:43, I've never heard professors called "the big people" before. Usually people throw brickbats at academia, not roses.
ReplyDeleteYou may be surprised to learn that some of the first presidents didn't want to keep the title after their term in office. George Washington asked to be called "General Washington" and Thomas Jefferson requested "Mr. Jefferson".
No, I'm not surprised that Washington and Jefferson were adverse to the British system of privilege and titles. It's why America was established in the first place. They would also have known that 'equality' and private judgment were the two defining traits of early America. It's all there in Alexis de Tocquevilles 'Democracy in America.' I thought volume 2 was better than volume 1. Fancy titles is not an American trait. In terms of power (brainwashing the next generation, and their power over students lives) and status, professors are part of the 'big people.'
ReplyDelete"Fancy titles is not an American trait."
ReplyDeleteOne might conclude otherwise after observing Donald Trump and the accolades he showers upon himself. He's currently being sued for calling one of his ripoff ventures, "Trump University"
Heck, he even named one of his kids, "Barron"!