James Malm thinks so:
Just so many in the COG Groups think that they can stand before God and shirk the responsibility for their own actions by blaming the si9ns on others and saying: ”I was just obeying church leaders”.
The Nazi’s made the same excuse and so does Victor Kubik about his enforcing of the Tkach agenda on the WCG elders: “I had to obey my boss” Vic claims. NO you didn’t! You could have resigned rather than sin! Saul and Kubik and thousands of Brethren; prove that they will willingly commit sin if they regard it as in their personal advantage! and Almighty God will reject their excuses just like he rejected the same excuse from Saul the king!
Malm is partially right in claiming Kubik did not have the balls to stand up to his boss. Kubik left a trail of destruction in his wake as he played "yes-man" to Tkach while plotting and scheming behind the scenes to form United Church of God. He kicked out members and ministers because they did not want to follow the new direction the church was headed, even though he himself disagreed with it all.
Why people still pander to this devious little man remains a mystery.
Victor Kubik was very much influenced by Dennis Luker. He participated in a lot of evil, perhaps naively (or perhaps not).
ReplyDeleteNO2HWA and Malm are correct: It is the ethical stance in Corporations that you have enough saved up for yourself as a Corporate manager that when you come to the point that you are asked to do something immoral and unethical, you object and if the Corporation doesn't change, you leave -- you just don't go quietly nuts and form an underground. You know, if you were a minister whose wife had been date raped before you were married by Garner Ted Armstrong, just exactly why would you remain for years being subject to him, simmering with hatred and depression: It's time to leave, not remain part of the whole corrupt organization. The Pierce County Jail Chaplain made that choice. It's a mystery to me why the CoHAM (Cult of Herbert Armstrong Mafia) knowingly not just stay but actively engage in what they perceive to be evil, wringing their hands and saying, "Shoot, what do we do now?!". They must not be listening to the Holy Spirit, I guess.
A woman in the WCG was fighting to retain her children (her husband was a psychopath) and the WCG had arranged P.C. Pearson Attorneys in Tacoma to represent her in court. The night before the court, Dennis Luker calls up Victor Kubik. The next morning, the woman has no representation in court because Victor Kubik has had the WCG withdraw money for the lawyers. The woman loses her children. Fast forward several years where the psychopath with the children has married a schizophrenic and my daughter and the woman's daughter stand outside the door knocking: The schizophrenic woman says on the other side of the door, "You're here to kill me... no, that's not reality" and lets her stepdaughter in.
I think that Victor Kubik is just plain weak. The ministry from the WCG had lots of hubris when things were going their way, but wimped out when the chips were down and had to actually risk something. Christian ministers should be the shining example of courage willing to be martyred for the Name of Jesus, but I see no such example in any of the CoHAM. They are a terrible disappointment. It's ironic they would set themselves up as leaders. As hirelings, watch them disappear when there is something of a real threat that comes their way.
Cowards.
They're all cowards.
But as cowards, they are often bullies, when they can get away with it.
Let us hope that Victor Kubik does not carry on the vision of Dennis Luker, not that United is a viable Christian organization in the first place.
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ReplyDeleteThe first time I met Victor Kubik, we had combined services with another UCG congregation so he could speak to more members at one time. It turned out to be an almost 2-hour infomercial for LifeNets. I spent most of the time wondering when the sermon was going to begin. My biggest complaint was that he promised that no tithe money was going to be used and that LifeNets would sustain itself with donations & other funding. Just three months later, UCG's financial statement came out and sure enough, thousands of dollars of tithe money was being funneled into LifeNets. With other problems coming out of their home office, it wasn't long and we left!
ReplyDeleteIn response to "Seeking Truth" above, the United Church of God has its own separate entity for funding projects and it is known as "Good Works".
ReplyDeletehttp://goodworks.ucg.org/projects
Of all the things that money can be spent on that churches do, I find it surprising for anyone to be upset about ANY money being spent on behalf of these third world people who are in the most dire of straits. Regardless of source, helping these people is the highest form of Christ like service.
Vic Kubik does not receive any compensation for Lifenets (nor ever has) , and is currently only a board member for the organization, whose current chairman is Tom Peine.
Joe Moeller
Cody, WY
I agree, Dennis, Vic is mostly a charming and personable fellow.
ReplyDeleteHe's not quite as charismatic as you might expect an actor to be, but almost. But LifeNets notwithstanding, which is, among other things, a vehicle that gives him an excuse to network and hobnob with people in the upper classes like HWA was prone to do, I think underneath the surface of that charm Vic is a man who is ruthless and unprincipled, and will do whatever he deems expedient toward his own interests. But he'll at least speak soothing words while he puts the knife between your ribs...
But yeah, he's a good guy, Vic.
Dennis hits an important point... these kind of situations are indeed very messy.
ReplyDeleteI remember my own conflicts and "cognitive dissonance" during the time. Here were the two great conundrums...
1) The Church is led by Jesus Christ, and your obedience to its "Apostle leader" is vital, and a test. If things are going wrong, you must trust Christ to correct it. Since HWA was the Apostle, and Tkach was his appointee, then Tkach was to be submitted to, and endured "until Jesus fixes it".
2) You must obey God and his ways no matter what. The WCG taught Sabbath and other doctrinal distinctions as primary, no exceptions.
So when the leadership and the doctrine, both of which were esteemed as essential, bifurcated and conflicted themselves , then what do you do?
Many people, self included, found themselves in a situation similar to that of Ernst Janning , who was tried in the movie "Judgement at Nuremberg".
Janning, a judge, was put in the uncomfortable spot of having to execute the law ..."following orders" and yet being able to at times , help some people escape the Nazi regime with lighter sentences or even a finding of innocence. However, many times, Janning carried out the letter of the law in order to maintain his office.
Nazi officers attempted to kill Hitler in 1944. Fiends or Friends? Arguable points can be made.
I have a client, who is in his 90s now, who served as a Lieutenant in WW2 for the Nazis. Before the war he was a young man who was flakey, who just wanted women, wine and song. After being drafted, and being on the Eastern Front, he was discovered to be of high intelligence and leadership. Through the quick attrition of the war, he was promoted rapidly and eventually became a field Lieutenant.
He discovered leadership and courage, and later became a very successful businessman, using the things he learned from his Nazi training, military experience and discipline.
The old man confessed to me a strange dichotomy, and his personal conundrum. He told me that the best thing that ever happened to him was being a Nazi. That it reformed him as a human being and taught him much life skills. He also said that the WORST thing he had ever done in his life was to be a Nazi. Although he was not aware of the Jewish Holocaust, he still had to weigh the fact that he battled to defend a system that was horrific and terrible. Yet , his life lessons had been honed by this terrible Nazi beast.
I too confess to having been taught incredible life lessons by Armstrongism, how to speak, how to dress, how to be a quality person in many aspects. Much leadership I learned from the WCG. I came into the church at age 17, coming from a ghetto situation, on my very own, without, up to that time, the valuable life training that in many areas the church offered.
Yet the WCG was rotten in its interior, and in error and evil in many, many ways. I was not aware of it at the time, too young and too innocent. I too find myself in the same dilemma as my friend, the former Nazi. Best and Worst of times.
I suggest mercy, no matter how or where you have ended up after all these years.. These are very difficult questions and answered by each of us in our own personal ways. This forum is a fascinating look into Dante's inferno on how all of us are coping with it.
Your Friend,
Joe Moeller
Cody, WY
Perspective and memory shape present perception. Dennis said, “He's a bit of a brusk Russian”. Although I was a mere child when his shadow crossed my path, I’m rather confident that Victor Kubik fancies himself to be Ukrainian, not Russian. That’s an important distinction for Ukrainians and Russians alike, as well as we, their neighbors.
ReplyDeleteI don’t want to appear to support the Tkaches (Russian) but, I think their actions were phrased as attempts to free the people of WCG, doctrinally. In reality, that did happen for the majority of the church – they moved off the Armstrong plantation and on to healthier lives –very good, and evaluate-able thing.
To suggest that the Tkaches should have left WCG because their thinking evolved seems like taking a stand in support of the old WCG continuing to deceive and abuse their people just as it had under Armstrong rule.
If there could be good Nazis, CGI is far cleaner than any of the COGS. But, I have no doubt that old cult elements and tactics remain entrenched within the CGI.
Although Dennis prefers not to judge how ministers handle transitions, I think it’s imperative to evaluate the Tkach transition and come out on the right side of history. There may have been evil motives or practices behind what Tkach and his henchmen did, but that messy transition was necessary and freed a multitude. Many members could not have entertained any inkling of the church not being infallible if they did not first hear about the errors from the top of the pulpit.
As far as judging the transition from the reign of Dennis to Oleh Kubik, I thought they were both so good I wouldn't want to call either of them good Nazis. I just can’t imagine Oleh recognizing poor accounting skills or mocking another person – however, I was a child at the time and the COG made all good people do bizarre things.
The problem is this. Many people did many things not so much for paychecks, but because they feared the tribulation and Lake of Fire. That's all it took!
ReplyDeleteVic was a classmate of mine at Embarrassing College. While I didn't party with him, jam on guitar with him, drink beer with him, or participate in bull sessions with him, his comments in class generally reflected intelligence, and an even temperament. He's also not one of the ones you would have pegged as being a future leader, but often, that came later on, with maturity and experience. There were some of our classmates who later became monstrous tyrants, once given a little authority. The doctrines of Armstrongism radically corrupted some of those who knew no boundary or restraint, but I don't number Vic amongst them.
BB
It's a big mistake thinking that anything even remotely connected to the CoHAM (Cult of Herbert Armstrong Mafia) is Christian.
ReplyDeleteI've attended the CoG7 from time to time and been to independent CoGs who did not have the heresies of Herbert Armstrong: There are worlds of differences right down to the core beliefs -- they are nothing like the Armstrongists at all. They might keep the Sabbath and the Holydays even, but they are not part of the Bronze Age religion stuck in purely physical rituals -- you know, like eating and drinking and drinking and drinking and drinking.
My recent conversations with Paul Woods of the Seventh Day Church of God have been enlightening. You would be surprised how foolish you Armstrongists look when measured against New Testament Scriptures.
If you were to take an objective look at yourselves and be really honest, you would have a great deal to repent of.
And while we're on that subject, let me just add that the CoHAM is nothing more than a collection of very worldly corporations without any spiritual content. As having been a manager for a misfortune 50 company, I can assure you that except for the name on the door, you could not even begin to tell the Armstrongists from the Corporate leaders -- not from how they are dressed, right down to their day to day behavior -- NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL! They are all carnal.
Now then, when I speak of corporate ethics, let me put in terms you might be able to understand so it's not too complicated for you. The devolution of the WCG was like a cigarette company deciding that they weren't going to make cigarettes any more. They set out to manufacture cigars. About a fourth of the managers of the company got together secretly and while they were still on the payroll of the newly minted cigar company decided to go out and form their own cigarette company -- and did so with the funds they got from the cigar company. Meanwhile, since they still depended on the cigar company to make their living, they pretended to support the making of the cigar, all the while they wanted to make cigarettes. When they finally made the break publically and began selling their brand of cigarettes, they actually went back to the cigar company and demanded equity, because they were selling the "pure" cigarette product the cigar company had been abandoned.
As long as the managers still with the cigar company just privately or even publically didn't try to set up shop, maybe their ethics were more or less honorable, but not so for those who had gone off and manufactured their "cigarette original".
Of course, the whole thing is flawed by the fact that cigarettes are really bad for you and smoking one cigar is as bad as smoking a whole pack of cigarettes.
So there are no winners here, except those who got out of the entire industry entirely (cough, cough!).
"Kubik left a trail of destruction in his wake as he played "yes-man" to Tkach while plotting and scheming behind the scenes to form United Church of God. He kicked out members and ministers because they did not want to follow the new direction the church was headed, even though he himself disagreed with it all."
ReplyDeleteABSOLUTELY! That's a very clear and accurate description.
Of course, there will be brainwashed apologists for Vic and the UCG who will do their best to muddy the waters on this, when in fact, it's crystal clear.
In response to "Joe Moeller" -- I have no problem with helping others, you missed the point of my comment. I would not have had a problem with using tithe money to help others. But being lied to from church leadership should bother everyone. The financial statement at the time was clear where the initial funding came from. I would rather he had said that tithe money would be used and there would not have been a problem.
ReplyDeleteThis, along with many other angry responses from their home office when asking questions about doctrinal changes, showed us that we needed to leave and did so over 10 years ago.
Again, to be clear for you, it was the continuing dishonesty, not the helping of others, that I saw to be a problem!
ReplyDelete"Is Victor Kubik Just Like The Nazis?"
No, Victor Kubik is not just like the Nazis. Victor Kubik is much worse than the Nazis ever were.
From a COG perspective, the Nazis were cut off from God and had no access to the Holy Spirit. In contrast, Victor Kubik was supposedly a true Christian who supposedly had the Holy Spirit.
What Victor Kubik did was in some ways much worse than anything the Nazis ever did, potentially affecting people's eternal lives.
Victor Kubik's cruel and traitorous behavior in the past during a time of relatively mild testing is a frightening harbinger of what he will do to church members in the future during the much greater test of the Great Tribulation.
I recall how Dave Pack recently posted some wacky stuff on his site and then later, surreptitiously, changed the content to be less incriminating against him. That was the first thing that came to mind when I noticed Dennis deleted all his comments from this thread.
ReplyDeleteI also caught a glimpse of very similar comments Dennis posted on another blog; I wonder if he deleted those too? In both sets of comments, Dennis said that he wasn't in favor of judging how ministers, such as Victor Kubic, navigated messy transitions.
Dennis then mentioned that when Tkach first started to disagree with WCG, Tkach should have walked away from the church and let the people continue with the doctrines they were comfortable with.
I believe had Tkach done that, more members would have continued, for longer stretches of time, to be hideously abused by Armstrongism. Therefore, Dennis’ reasoning is anathema to an anti-Armstrong blog.
To err is human but, it’s better to recant than merely delete. Does anyone agree with me?
Western countries today are more controlling than Germany was under Hitler.
ReplyDelete"Western countries today are more controlling than Germany was under Hitler."
ReplyDeleteYes, the Third Reich was a gas!