Justified lying is a trick that Jehovah's Witnesses employ when they feel that non believers do not deserve the truth. Has the Living Church of God sunk this low that they have to lie in order to get their message of "good news" across? In LCG's eyes World Vision is not Christian, just as Bob Elijah Elisha Amos believes. Since they are not "real" Christians like LCG, was it ok to lie to them?
Living Church of God Saying They No Longer Have Any Ties to Armstrong:
April 15, 2016
(Regarding LCOG "hiding" behind World Vision for their seminar [see March 28 & March 29 letters]), I sent the president of World Vision a detailed email of concern with quotes from Roderick Meredith, and some of his denials of the Christian faith. I have not heard [back] from him. At least I gave David Cerullo CEO of INSP Networks some credit. He had Tomorrow's World cancelled from his network in 2007. I sent him and John Roos, Senior Vice President Marketing, a five page letter showing Roderick Meredith's ties to Herbert W. Armstrong, his smear on Christianity, and many of his unbiblical-unorthodox teachings. The LCOG tried to persuade him that they no longer really have any ties to Armstrong, and abandoned many of his teachings. Of course, that is not what his "Official Statement Of Fundamental Beliefs" states. Mr. Cerullo also had The Church of God International's program "Armor of God"" cancelled as well. So did "World Harvest Television"
Many other Armstrong offshoots have been cancelled from Christian radio/TV as well. These stations include Salem (even though they are airing Ron Dart again on their OnePlace.Com), Wilkins. Wilkins lost $150,000.00 cancelling Dart, American Family Radio, Former Trevecca Nazarene University's WENO, and a host of others. I have been warning Christians, and Christian radio and TV concerning Armstrong, The Way International (that's another story) and others.
It's very clear that Dr. Roderick C. Meredith still considers Herbert W. Armstrong a great Bible teacher, and continues to teach and believe in many of his doctrines. Dr. Meredith's official statement of fundamental beliefs states "Our doctrines, practices, policies, and traditions have their roots in the Worldwide Church of God under the leadership of Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong" (P.1.) My email to Mr. John Roos, beyond any question of doubt shows the Living Church of God/Tomorrow's World teachings are contrary to that taught in the Word of God. Their doctrines are wrong on salvation, the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ, their denial of the Trinity, the physical resurrection, Hell, and many other Christian teachings. --Anonymous
Nothing to see here! Tweeking the truth for the sake of "the truth" has always been ok. :)
ReplyDeleteIgnatius Loyola (1491-1556), the tireless zealot for papal authority – he was the founder of the Society of Jesus (the Jesuits) – even wrote:
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides"
Bishop Eusebius, the official propagandist for Constantine, entitles the 32nd Chapter of his 12th Book of Evangelical Preparation:
"How it may be Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine, and for the Benefit of those who Want to be Deceived."
Eusebius is notoriously the author of a great many falsehoods – but then he does warn us in his infamous history:
"We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."
– Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2.
Clement of Alexandria was one of the earliest of the Church Fathers to draw a distinction between "mere human truth" and the higher truth of faith:
"Not all true things are the truth, nor should that truth which merely seems true according to human opinions be preferred to the true truth, that according to the faith."
– Clement (quoted by M. Smith, Clement of Alexandria, p446)
John Chrysostom, 5th century theologian and erstwhile bishop of Constantinople, is another:
"Do you see the advantage of deceit? ...
For great is the value of deceit, provided it be not introduced with a mischievous intention. In fact action of this kind ought not to be called deceit, but rather a kind of good management, cleverness and skill, capable of finding out ways where resources fail, and making up for the defects of the mind ...
And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived."
– Chrysostom, Treatise On The Priesthood, Book 1
Martin Luther, in private correspondence, argued:
"What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church ... a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."
– Martin Luther (Cited by his secretary, in a letter in Max Lenz, ed., Briefwechsel Landgraf Phillips des Grossmüthigen von Hessen mit Bucer, vol. I.)
A difficult topic, considering the story of Rahab:
ReplyDelete"Jos 2:3 And the king of Jericho sent unto Rahab, saying, Bring forth the men that are come to thee, which are entered into thine house: for they be come to search out all the country.
Jos 2:4 And the woman took the two men, and hid them, and said thus, There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were (are):"
"Heb_11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
Jas_2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"
cheers
ralph.f
ReplyDeleteRalph said
"A difficult topic, considering the story of Rahab:"
Interesting as I am having a debate on this at present. I'm of the opinion that those commentaries who say that Rahab lied here are mistaken, based on the fact that she was praised for what she did both in the OT. and twice in the NT. I believe she just misdirected them as Jesus did on several occasions, i.e. Mark 5:39 where he said "the damsel is not dead" when she obviously was, Mark 4:11 spoke in parables so people would not understand what he was really saying.
What think you?
toby
The commandment actually proscribes bearing false witness against your neighbor, witness for which he would suffer unjust punishment, or harm. It does not appear to be a blanket prohibition against lying. However, there are New Testament scriptures expanding upon truthfulness.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, LCG lied to WV, in an attempt to mask the toxicity of their cult, so that WV would rent them the hall. It was fraud, and if WV had not euphemistically proclaimed the date as "cleaning day" the lies might have brought great and public disgrace upon LCG. And, in a philosophical manner, it was indeed cleaning day, much like putting the leaven of the Pharisees out of a Christian's life! WV, in my opinion, passed a test with flying colors.
BB
"Lied," "misdirected," what's your point? Isn't this just apologetic spin-doctoring for Jesus?
ReplyDeleteIf Ralph and Toby say this is acceptable, then isn't what you're really trying to say here is, so can Rod Meredith? When he deceives World Vision or David Cerullo, and they become understandably upset with Meredith, and charge him with having "lied" to them, are you not here defending Meredith, saying, no, that he just "misdirected" them, and that it's okay, and biblically justifiable and pointing to Rahab?
How does this comport with the "golden rule" in Matt 7:12 and Luke 6:21 (not original to christianity, btw, but then again, what is?) Or Isaiah 5:20 "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter."
If you're going to equivocate on whether lying is really lying, and whether deceit is really deceit, what's the difference between that and equivocating between your conception of god and your conception of satan? Are you not thereby theologically amalgamating them together?
I hope you guys don't think by taking this low road you have any claim to moral high ground. You're morally bankrupt. Shameful stuff guys.
Well, Ralph, Rahab lied, yes. She also had sex for money. So there's that.
ReplyDeleteIf you're suggesting that lying, having sex for money, and hiding spies is a ticket to eternity, then I think a lot of folks will take you up on that. Unless, of course, one might surmise that Rahab had a change of heart (and ways) over time. More likely, no?
Also, there is no suggestion she was called by God to be his chosen messenger. So, you know, the story kind of loses its oomph in this context.
on April 19, 2016 at 1:20 AM
ReplyDeleteAnonymous wrote:-
"What think you?"
I haven't spent any time in study of this topic and ask if you have a 'Keil and Delitzsch commentary'? It provides an interesting run down on "Joshua 2:2-6". If you don't have the commentary I would be happy to copy & paste the segment to this blog if the owner would consent.
cheers
ralph.f
Is anyone really that surprised? Rod Meredith has historically and repeatedly proven himself to be a compulsive liar. He lies with no guilt or reservation.
ReplyDeleteRod Meredith's reputation as a liar is beyond redemption. With that kind of leadership, I have no doubt that he sanctioned his minions to bend the truth to Worldvision because the Meredith's truly believe that the ends justify the means.
Ralf, your "A difficult topic, considering the story of Rahab, is in fact easy to understand if you had read my posts. This is what happens, people get brain washed by their church and culture. So when they hear the truth, it basically bounces off. And another example of decades of sermon listening, yet moral confusion abounds.
ReplyDeleteCheers TradingGuy
Good post, but you left an "i" out-
ReplyDelete"Everyone knows they have defied the man..."
(should be "deified")
definition of defy: "to openly resist or refuse to obey"
definition of deify: "worship, regard, or treat (someone or something) as a god."
Matthew includes Ruth (Gentile Moabite), Tamar (Genesis 38..disguised herself as a prostitute for the better good), Bathsheba and Rahab in the Genealogy of Jesus. All women of questionable repute. These are not Sarah, Deborah, Leah and Rachel of Israel. So they are all off the "fallen woman or questionable woman in Israel" list no matter.
ReplyDeleteMatthew included them just before mentioning "Mary the mother of Jesus" to send the message that God works through even these behaviors or circumstances to the good so leave Mary and her "we were not born of fornication " son Jesus alone. It's God's doing. Jesus birth credentials were an issue in the day (John 8-9)which is also why the miraculous birth of Jesus narrative was inserted in "Matthew" to counter the charge.
Great points, Dennis!
ReplyDeleteIt's certainly true that Christian Gods have set examples that show that "sins" like lying, plagiarizing, deceiving, witchcraft, rape, stealing, murder of individuals and/or committing genocide, etc etc etc, are A-Okay- as long as they're done for the furtherment of the cause.
LOL.... However, that's how cults work.
But don't worry, the Christian Gods are on the case, and will make everything right in 'The Kingdom'....BAZINGA!
hahahaha
"Mary Mother of Jesus"
ReplyDeleteThis reminds me of the 5 part documentary I saw last "Christmas".
Dunno if and where it is available in a sophisticated language.
http://www.arte.tv/magazine/jesusundderislam/de/jesus-und-der-islam-jesusetlislam
26 scolars debate the origins of Islam.
Mary is the only woman mentioned in the Quran.
The Quaran makes a huge point mentioning "Mary mother of Jesus" many times.
.........to emphasize his humanity.........
There seemed to be contact between the Syriac Christians in Damascus and Medina. Also of course there were the many jews in Arabia and the remnants of (cog people, ebionites etc).
All at odds on the nature of the prophet. So of course Muhammed got confused with all the others disagreeing. :-)
nck
Was this remotely relevant?
DeleteWhen this topic of lying is brought up, the following question is often asked. "Would you tell the Nazis where the Jews are hiding?"
ReplyDeleteCheers TradingGuy
Whatever else we might think of WorldVision, I do not buy that they are remotely comparable to Nazis, nor that LCG is in the Jews' position circa 1940.
DeleteWould this count as a major sin or minor sin Rod Meredith committed since he was baptized???
ReplyDeleteSteve
Clearly, the Bible does not prohibit lying. Rahab the harlot is supposed to have lied to protect the spies and was regarded as a hero. The command is against perjury. Like Winston Churchill said, the truth has to be hidden behind carefully crafted lies sometimes. I freely admit that I lie once in awhile to protect myself of someone else.
ReplyDeleteWhat does scripture really say?
ReplyDeleteThis is what I find over a few translations:-
"Exodus 20:16
(AMP) You shall not witness falsely against your neighbor. [Exod. 23:1; Prov. 19:9; 24:28.]
(Brenton) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
(KJV) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
(KJV+) Thou shalt not(H3808) bear(H6030) false(H8267) witness(H5707) against thy neighbour.(H7453)"
Against your neighour..
I always thought that referred to 'setting up' your neighbour, perhaps in a court of law.
cheers
ralph.f
ps. Interesting that e-Sword's 'Word Study' module says the following about 'false (H8267) viz:
"H8267
ֶשֶׁקר
šeqer: A noun meaning a lie, vanity, without cause. This word is used of a lying witness (Deu_19:18); of false prophets...."
Emphasis mine. rf.
Ralph said
ReplyDelete"do you have a 'Keil and Delitzsch commentary?"
Yes I have thanks.
anon 4:25
what you say fits with even the 10 commandments the scriptures show that god hates deceit. I beieve it is always wrong to LIE.
are you suggesting that Jesus lied
toby
I'd like to play a little bit of the devil's advocate with you... You all say that Meredith lied in this case, but first Meredith is not involved in the booking of venues for meetings. Second, most likely World Vision saw that Tomorrow's World (LCG program) is on major TV and did not investigate what their beliefs are and they just took the money!! World Vision also like MONEY!!
ReplyDeleteTo date, I have only seen indirect evidence of RCM/LCG actually telling WV they were in the same boat as GCI. It is entirely possible WV just made an uneducated assumption. Could go either way based on what's been made public.
Delete"Was this remotely relevant?"
ReplyDeleteIn this entire LCG vs WV argument I feel Meredith has heaped this protesting of the Bereans upon himself by his lifelong recorded arrogance toward the "Cristians."
-You reap what you sow.
-There is being done as he has done unto others.
Because this issue is highly symbolic and only pertains a space to meet in an ocean of office space I am just mildly protesting the "perceived" arrogance of some of the "Christian" arguments.
Indeed the big words like "freedom of speech", witchhunt are totally out of place.
I am only cautioning to go mildly on those that hold beliefs on which Christians seem to be very sure but have been debated during the course of time.
Trading guy is rightly corrected for using the big word comparison of nazi persecution. Although he has a point that it was only until 1944 that pres Roosevelt admitted more jews to the USA and many ships were turned back because of rampant anti semitism among the general constituency.
So I am enjoying the spectacle from a "you reap what you sow" perspective especially since it is initiated by people who suffered abuse. But one should be careful not to gloat in fighting sabbath keepers or feel in any way superior as a "Christian" having embraced doctrine that is good and pleasant for you. The entire issue is something of a practical joke and can symbollicaly be made into a matter of principle because of the choice of the office space. Perhaps not brothers because of Meredith's record but at least "(nasty) distant cousins."
nck
Lying if it protects the life of a human being or his reputation with-out harming anyone else I think can be justified. However in the case of the LCG it is used to perpetuate a destructive cult and is hyprocracy.
ReplyDeleteNothing is honorable about Rod Meredith's lies. He's not protecting the innocent or lying for some honorable reason. He lies to exalt himself and to demean others. He lies to get and not to give. He lies to tear down not to build up. He lies to gain more power and control to protect himself and his bloated ego and diminishing power. His lies are self serving. His lies are often abuses of authority against his members and employees.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, The Living Church of God was entirely founded on a RCM lie.
Leopards don't change their spots.
Cut off shall liars be....
on April 20, 2016 at 3:22 AM
ReplyDeleteEd. wrote:
"Lying if it protects the life of a human being or his reputation with-out harming anyone else I think can be justified."
and I have to agree with that, except for the word 'justified'. A lie is a lie and I believe against the 'spirit' of the 9th commandment. In saying that however, I believe that Yehovah is a merciful God and will forgive those who find themselves in such circumstances, as He did with Rahab.
cheers
ralph.f
I'd say Revelation Jesus lied about "Behold i come quickly"
ReplyDeleteon April 20, 2016 at 8:42 AM
ReplyDeleteDennisCDiehl wrote:-
"I'd say Revelation Jesus lied about "Behold i come quickly"
I'd say it may depend on your perspective eg:-
"Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night."
cheers
ralph.f
I thought my comment self evident (I hope people aren't doing a straw man on me), but I will spell it out.
ReplyDeleteIf you tell the Nazis where the Jews are hiding, they will kill the Jews.
If you lie and say you do not know where the Jews are hiding, the Jews live.
Tell the truth and innocent people are murdered, lie and innocent peoples lives are spared.
You can make a similar argument about someone trying to kidnap a victim. Do you tell them where their intended victim is, or try to protect the victim by lying.
Cheers TradingGuy
on April 20, 2016 at 1:57 PM
ReplyDeleteTradingGuy wrote:-
"I thought my comment self evident"
I thought it was, also.
cheers
ralph.f
Ralph apologized for Jesus saying "I'd say it may depend on your perspective eg:-
ReplyDelete"Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night."
Then the author of Revelation, to be fair to mere mortals, should have said "Behold I come quickly as I count quickly not as you count quickly. Actually my quickly is quite long but quite quick in the whole scheme of things but don't wait up..."
on April 20, 2016 at 9:48 PM
ReplyDeleteDennisCDiehl wrote:-
"Then the author of Revelation, to be fair to mere mortals, should have said "Behold I come quickly as I count quickly not as you count quickly. Actually my quickly is quite long but quite quick in the whole scheme of things but don't wait up..."
Ahh Dennis, I like you! You make me to larff.(from a different perspective)
cheers
ralph.f
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI suspect people are 'crazy making,' or doing a straw man on my comment. I feel generous, so I'II give out some more info.
ReplyDelete"All Warfare Is Based Upon Deception" from 'The Art of War' by Sun Tzu
When Sun Tzu elaborates on deception, he begins:
“Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable;
When using our forces, we must seem inactive;
When we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away;
When far away, we must make him believe we are near.”
Cheers TradingGuy
I think you're doing a very fine job of "crazy making" on your own.
DeleteIn LCG, the ends justify the means, no matter what that entails.
ReplyDeleteIntegrity is seldom valued and cut-throat initiative is typically rewarded.
on April 20, 2016 at 9:48 PM
ReplyDeleteDennisCDiehl wrote:-
"Then the author of Revelation, to be fair to mere mortals, etc..."
From another viewpoint, obviously the author was not referring to the time frame 'UNTIL' but to the time frame 'WHEN'. At the time of His literal return it will be over a very short, or quick, period of time; even within a 24 hour time frame or less. Many would consider that to be 'quickly'.
cheers
ralph.f
Ralph, It seems you believe everything written in the Bible is true.
ReplyDeleteHave I understood this correctly?
on April 21, 2016 at 9:39 AM
ReplyDeleteAnonymous wrote:-
"Ralph, It seems you believe everything written in the Bible is true.
Have I understood this correctly?"
Pretty close. I accept, rightly or wrongly, this passage;-
"2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"
If I have any doubt I will compare translations and take on board the various commentaries that can be found. In the end it is up to me to accept or reject anything that comes my way.
cheers
ralph.f
Being 'inspired' (as in being relevant mythology- as is that of many different holy books), and being factually accurate, are two very different things.
ReplyDeleteA crazy part is when God says a woman should marry her rapist. Yeshua Ha Mashiac's got some great ideas there, LOL!
ReplyDeleteObviously, he'd be better known as, Yeshua Hahaha Mashiac the Royal Schmuck!
"When a man lies he murders some part of the world. These are the pale deaths which men miscall their lives" CB
ReplyDeleteThe absolute "truth" will always remain outside of us. Understanding this, we should be able to minimize our errors as we continually update our beliefs.
"My religion is to seek for truth in life and for life in truth, even knowing that I shall not find them while I live." Unamuno
DBP