Now that members and ministers in the Living Church of God have bern subpoenaed to testify in the Scarborough lawsuit, there is a quandary that members and ministers are having to face.
These members and ministers have to testify, under oath, the truth about what they saw happen. They are faced with a dilemma that none of them are comfortable with. If they tell the truth, they have to tell how despicable Rod McNair and Rod Meredith have been towards the Scarborough's, and in doing that they face the possible expulsion from the church and being kicked out of the ministry for betraying Meredith.
On the other hand, if they lie, then they will be wracked with guilt knowing that they are covering up for the abusers and that they have broken the law, both biblically and nationally. However, there are many in the Church of God who believe that "justified lying" is ok. Church members did this during the court receivership in Pasadena when the State of California smacked the church with a lawsuit on misuse of funds.
It's an even bigger dilemma for ministers. If you testify and tell the truth, then the chances are high you will be terminated when the Scarborough's win the lawsuit. Rod Meredith will never forget those that stabbed him in the back. The church will keep records on who testifies and it will be used as a weapon against them. WCG did this to members in the State of California lawsuit. Those who supported the claimants and those who testified with the truth, were terminated and disfellowshipped.
There will be a big purge after this is all over. Win or loose, those that testify will face repercussions.
The problem is that from a moral and ethical standpoint, lying is not just the blatant telling of untruth. It is also withholding, or failing to tell the truth when you know it, in an effort to stealthily deceive. Both fall into the general category of deception.
ReplyDeleteI suspect that some of the subpoenaesses will get real cagey with their words in an effort to protect themselves! Warning: beware of seared consciences just ahead!
BB
Since you put it this way, there isn't so much between this case, and the trial of a mobster when witnesses start dropping like flies in the street. And what's true of people in more extreme conditions is often true of them in more normal conditions. Which means that Doug Becker is right on the money when he calls these outfits "mafias."
ReplyDeleteAs I stated before this situation has placed much pressure on the ministers and members. People will have to choose whether to obey Yahweh come what may, or whether to twist the truth which is just a deceitful way of lying.
ReplyDeleteTruly one's character or lack thereof is going to be exposed for all to see.
Choose well, your very salvation (true this time around), will be decided, for no liar will be permitted to enter the Kingdom of Yahweh.
How can this be the true church, if one is purged for telling the truth in court.
ReplyDeleteAnother reminder that the 'true' church are those who follow Christ rather than Rod.
Must be a tough trial for the comfy, well paid ministry.
This is a shame what happened to these church members.
ReplyDeleteWithholding information that they know the Scarborough's are looking for is the equivalent of lying. Sadly that is what many of these people will do. LCG has told them to only share what is asked and nothing more. There will a lot of people dealing with guilt when this is all over.
ReplyDeleteThere's a simple solution to all this: Testify and tell the truth.
ReplyDeleteAnd then when Meredith and the LCG take action against you, sue for all they are worth.
This is a marvelous situation which can just feed on itself until all the resources of Meredith and the LCG are completely devoured.
And then some.
It shouldn't be an issue at all. Tell the truth at all times and if any organization expects one to lie for them, then obviously they're not of God and certainly not one to be followed.
ReplyDeleteGod is always testing the laity to determine who follows a man or who, without hesitance, will follow Him. If leaving that organization is what is required then so be it. Remember that Christ is standing on the outside, knocking on the door.
They just need to decide which side of that door they're on.
One's loyalty should never be in question.
Regards, itstimecog
Well...NOW they have the opportunity to behave like real Early Church Fathers... :)
ReplyDeleteLying for the Church is ok!
Jerome is not alone in his candour. Bishop Eusebius, the official propagandist for Constantine, entitles the 32nd Chapter of his 12th Book of Evangelical Preparation:
"How it may be Lawful and Fitting to use Falsehood as a Medicine, and for the Benefit of those who Want to be Deceived."
Eusebius is notoriously the author of a great many falsehoods – but then he does warn us in his infamous history:
"We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."
– Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2.
Clement of Alexandria was one of the earliest of the Church Fathers to draw a distinction between "mere human truth" and the higher truth of faith:
"Not all true things are the truth, nor should that truth which merely seems true according to human opinions be preferred to the true truth, that according to the faith."
– Clement (quoted by M. Smith, Clement of Alexandria, p446)
John Chrysostom, 5th century theologian and erstwhile bishop of Constantinople, is another:
"Do you see the advantage of deceit? ...
For great is the value of deceit, provided it be not introduced with a mischievous intention. In fact action of this kind ought not to be called deceit, but rather a kind of good management, cleverness and skill, capable of finding out ways where resources fail, and making up for the defects of the mind ...
And often it is necessary to deceive, and to do the greatest benefits by means of this device, whereas he who has gone by a straight course has done great mischief to the person whom he has not deceived."
– Chrysostom, Treatise On The Priesthood, Book 1.
Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556), the tireless zealot for papal authority – he was the founder of the Society of Jesus (the Jesuits) – even wrote:
"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
The Reformation may have swept away some abuses perpetrated by the priesthood but lying was not one of them. Martin Luther, in private correspondence, argued:
"What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church ... a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them."
– Martin Luther (Cited by his secretary, in a letter in Max Lenz, ed., Briefwechsel Landgraf Phillips des Grossmüthigen von Hessen mit Bucer, vol. I.)
I can imagine a new TV series coming out of all this...
ReplyDeleteLAW and ORDER: Church of God Special Victims Unit
A week or so ago I was reading the comments to an article at slate.com and I saw that one of the frequent commenters said that he or she was a lawyer and had to leave the conversation to go to a deposition which lawyers love because they are "easy billing". I wonder what this is going to cost the Church of Rod when (or if) they lose.
ReplyDeleteConnie said, "I can imagine a new TV series coming out of all this...
ReplyDeleteLAW and ORDER: Church of God Special Victims Unit"
MY COMMENT - That's good Connie! I love it! Tax cheat Ron Weinland could provide enough material for a full season with fellow Witness from the Book of Revelation wife Laura witnessing everything including his jail tribulation for 3 1/2 years while traveling throughout the world. Herbert's incest victimizing Dorothy is an episode. Of course, in bed with Garner Ted is a running mini series within the series sprinkled though out. Throw in almost arrested bitter Bob Thiel and his double dose (was it a double dose OR a double dip as in George Castanza?).
Then there is polygamous "Buffalo Bill" Yisrayl Hawkins and his proclivity toward young girls.
The possibilities are endless. I think you are on to something Connie!
Richard
When I was a student in Rod's class in Pasadena in 1967 I heard him say that it it OK to lie to protect the church or "the work". He suggested that one could make an untrue statement and then (in your head) add something to the statement or amend it in some way that would make it true. So, I would not believe anything that comes out of Rod's mouth on the witness stand because you don't know what he is blathering inside his own mind. He is simply not credible in any circumstances.
ReplyDeleteJustified lying. It covers a multitude of sins. So sayeth the religious folks.
ReplyDeleteA couple of Sabbaths have passed after the subpoenas were sent, but until now, LCG hasn't announced to its members about the Scarborough lawsuit. Why is the ministry hiding this vital issue? It's not fair to all. If there's someone here who works at Charlotte HQ, will you secure a list of brethren and their home address and send them an anonymous letter stating and explaining about the Scarborough lawsuit? Also, if you have access as how much these top ministers are paid annually? Is it really true that they get 6 figures? Members deserve to know all these!!!
ReplyDeleteGods word is very plain on where he stands as far as lying and liars go, he leaves no room to justify lying for any reason at all. There are many plain scriptures pointing this out and anyone who tries to lie to defend RCM or anyone else is rejecting God and his word.
ReplyDelete10.42 PM the churches mailing list is their precious intellectual property, and should be respected, however unjust the organization. Your suggestion could land a person in jail. Yours is another example of the church hiding rights from members, since ministers have all rights, and members have non.
ReplyDeleteTo our brethren in Charlotte about to go to court --- We are truly sorry this is happening to you all,,,,
ReplyDeleteIt should not be!!!!!!!
We are praying for you that you will be strong and very courageous.
Do not fear man,,,,,,rather,, fear God.
The local press should be informed of this lawsuit. This should be on the front page of the Charlotte newspaper and the local Charlotte news shows. When the light is turned on the cockroaches shall scatter.
ReplyDeleteRahab, midwives for Moses, Samuel, David, etc. all lied. Jews teach that you don't have to tell the truth or the whole truth IF someone is going to use the truth to do evil. The GREATEST commandments include: Love your neighbor. Sometimes the most loving thing to do is to lie to someone. If the father of the bride asks you, "Isn't my daughter the most beautiful bride you've ever seen?" The correct and moral answer is always "YES"! The most right thing to do is sometimes to lie, to save lives, protect people, etc. Of course, RCM might want people to lie to do cover up evil. Not good. May I suggest a book, A Code of Jewish Ethics You Shall be Holy by Rabbi Joseph Telushkin Page 422, When Lying is Permissible.
ReplyDeleteSteve D. Rehab and David lied to protect lives. Samuel misled Saul to protect his life. Murderers have no right to expect their intended victims to be truthful and hence aid them in their destruction. The 'correct and moral answer' to the bride comment is something like 'yes, she looks gorgeous.' The father of the bride shouldn't be asking such a 'nosey' question, and if pressed, I would keep repeating some compliment. This is called diplomacy, no white lies necessary.
ReplyDeleteI do not have the problem of people telling me white lies, since I do not ask nosey, personal questions.
Your poor answer is another example of listening to sermons for decades, yet still being morally confused. People hand over 10% of their incomes to these churches, yet only get useless Kenneth Copeland type sermon slop from the ministers.
1.33 AM 'God leaves no room for justified lying for any reason.'
ReplyDeletePlease supply a scriptures/s to support your claim.
The Scarbourough attorneys would do well to bring up that little incident in Milwaukee where all those people were murdered 10 years ago
ReplyDeleteRod could have made this go away before it got out of hand. Most successful business people do attempt to resolve issues before they become so time consuming and financially draining.
ReplyDeleteHe must consider the issue of his authority to be of paramount importance.
If would be a shame if some of his members did end up committing perjury, thinking they were doing the right thing, and ended up in jail, with their families on welfare or their kids in the system. This is something that could have many unintended consequences. It is way too late for a simple apology and the righting of a wrong. Just as the ACOGs think they are seeing an acceleration in world events, this is really going to cripple LCG's ability to participate in what they see as their great commission. What a shame for their members!
BB
Anon 8:34 says it's ok to tell "white lies" but not to lie to safe someone's life? So, when the Nazis came to the apartments seeking hidden Jews, would you tell the Nazi soldiers the truth or lie to protect innocent Jews? When Jews asked Jesus What is the GREATEST commandment, He said to Love your neighbor. In other words, we do the most loving thing. Do we lie to save a life or do we tell the truth and watch an innocent person be executed?
ReplyDeleteLying to protect an evil religious organization is not the loving thing to do. Lying to protect an innocent person from an evil person, is acceptable. Midwives lied to Egyptian officials; Rahab lied to protect the Israeli spies. We are not morally obligated to give the truth to someone who is going to use the truth to do evil. Look at Telushkin's thoughts from Scripture and tell me if you would give the truth to someone who is going to use it to commit an evil act. To do so makes you am accomplice.
Steve D you mis read my post. I said the exact opposite regarding white lies. You are the one who said in 3.49AM to tell white lies at weddings.
ReplyDeleteLies and lies, white or any other color. But, some things are more important than telling the truth. I would lie to save a life. I would like to protects someone's feelings (like when I wife asks if her new outfit is pretty). I would not lie to cover up for a corrupt minister. The greatest commandment is to do the most loving thing. I hope members of the LCG will tell the truth and FINALLY nail RCM's ass to the wall. Hiding in his bubble at HQ, like HWA did in Pasadena, protects him from the outside. The courts, I hope, will show him to be what he really is. Since my few years at AC in the early 70's, and sitting through his "First Year Bible" course, we all knew what a mean SOB he was, and probably still is.
ReplyDelete