The Gestapo at the Philadelphia Church of God extends its reach further into the lives of families. This time it concerns the period of time BEFORE, DURING and AFTER church services. Lil'Joel Hilliker is highly offended that little boys roll little cars around on the floor while he is speaking.Lil'Joel then drags up a letter by Richard Armstrong, who early on was proving himself to be even more legalistic than his daddy was, where he railed on bad children in church.
Emphasizing that the Sabbath commandment includes “thy son” and “thy daughter” (Exodus 20:10), Dick Armstrong wrote, “The Sabbath is holy time, sacred to God, and as such our children should not be allowed to run loose like so many wild animals. … Your children must be in Church, and they must keep the Sabbath holy the same as you do.”
That is the overarching principle we must remember when we monitor and regulate our children’s behavior before and after services. This is still holy time. Isaiah 58:13 commands that we all—including our children—refrain from doing our own pleasure to ensure the Sabbath is “holy of the Lord, honorable.”
That means no running or horseplay. The children should not be throwing things, or noisily rolling cars around, or being overly loud. Boys seem especially prone to such behavior. We must direct them toward appropriate alternatives.
At the same time, that verse in Isaiah shows that God wants the Sabbath to be a “delight” for the whole family. We must train our children to uphold the standard—while we provide suitable activities and opportunities that they will enjoy.Little kids, bored to death by idiotic 2 hour services, MUST learn what "holy time" is. In other words, any time a PCG minister opens its mouth, that MUST be regarded as "holy" time. Even when it's the likes of Lil'Joel Hilliker speaking.
“Of course your children can play with the other children when services are over,” said the August 1965 Good News. “They should look forward to and enjoy the Sabbath when they see all their friends again. But this is not license to sail airplanes out of restroom windows, wrestle on the floor, or bang chairs around ….”
Our children should be quiet and orderly throughout the Sabbath. They should respect the property at services—including songbooks and other children’s toys—and have a sense of decorum befitting the occasion.
By upholding God’s standards, we are teaching them what holy means.After sitting there for two hours listening to Gerald Flurry slur his words and ramble aimlessly and mindlessly about, little kids, especially boys, need to let off some pent up energy. But NO, that is not permissible!
We all want to fully enjoy fellowship with the other brethren before and after services. But we must not succumb to the temptation to turn our children loose and forget about them until it’s time to “round them up” for the trip home. The congregation is not a giant day-care staff that will look after them so we can take a break from being parents. As Proverbs 29:15 warns, “[A] child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.”Armstrongism has always been about shame. There unworthy and unloved they could make members feel the more control the church had over them.
The best thing parents in the Philadelphia Church of God could do for their kids is the leave the church and find freedom!
Dick, not Dwight.
ReplyDeleteBut yes, I remember some uptight WCG pastors doing the same thing.
Thanks. Changed it.
ReplyDeleteAs one tongue-in-cheek writer once phrased it, "if children sat still and behaved like proper blank-eyed automatons, Dad must be a Godly man."
ReplyDelete"...mothers, don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys"
ReplyDeleteDave Pack informed my Sister that her little girl had a demon because she was interrupting his sermon, which is just what Satan would want to do. Upon closer examination, our family determined she was just being a normal kid and most likely just bored with Dave's sermon
ReplyDeleteBy all means, let's make church and the Sabbath as unpleasant for children as we can possibly make it. Maybe that's why so many of them don't stay in the church?
ReplyDeleteStudies recently conducted found that MOMS who stayed home from weekly Sabbath Services and Holy Days in the various Churches of God:
ReplyDeleteEnjoyed much improved and positive outlook on actual daily living
Were less prone to depression and ruminating over past injustices
Suffered far less from delusional and magical thinking
Had much healthier self image
Had much healthier impression of men
Suffered far less from the discomfort of hemorrhoids, sciatic and low back pain due to improper posture and sitting
Suffered less depression from repressed anger that was the result of feeling she had no right to express herself or the price of doing so was much too high
Suffered far less anxiety about the unknowable future
Laughed much more frequently
Was much more spontaneous, playful and loving to her partner
Was far less prone to the shoulds and musts of others
Took far more things "under advisement" rather than blindly going along because she was told to do so
Had deeper and a much greater variety of friends
Had more money to spend on essentials
and a whole lot more...
Symptoms returned within a week when the child was old enough to sit even if they didn't understand or didn't need to and returned to church.
The good news is that it is a curable problem with actual rest on weekends and during time off along with a good healthy dose of "That's none of your business thank you" , "That's crazy", "That man is nuts", "It doesn't mean that" and "What the Hell have I gotten myself into and why am I here?" works wonders.
ReplyDeleteDennisCDiehl said...
“Dave Pack informed my Sister that her little girl had a demon because she was interrupting his sermon, which is just what Satan would want to do. Upon closer examination, our family determined she was just being a normal kid and most likely just bored with Dave's sermon”
David Pack might have just got it backwards. Dave might have been accusing others of having the very problem that he has. Nowadays, it sounds like Dave's sermons are inspired by demons. Dave is saying and doing just the sort of things that Satan would want him to.
The 2016 reality for moms in church are far worse than many even on here could imagine. Moms getting grief for breastfeeding their babies, even when done outside of the service venue.
ReplyDeleteFlying Paper Airplanes out of bathroom windows at Church??
ReplyDeleteWow, that sounds like super fun, and I would LOVE to join in on such an activity, even now as an adult!
Anything that serves as a distraction from the lies and delusions of these shameless false prophets steeped in fantasy and myths should be not just supported but applauded.
ReplyDeleteAnd just think: If the boys are playing with cars in services, it may mean that they have inherited structural visualization (from their mothers) and that they have the potential to have a rewarding career in any number of a variety of profitable structural fields, such as brain surgery, rocket science and invention of advanced weaponry.
Of course, people like Pack, being totally clueless and talentless would have no appreciation of God given talents and would seek to be an adversary to anyone who may be able to develop what he can never understand -- you know, things like the truth.
I believe we should take up a collection to purchase a good supply of stink bombs from the spy store for PCG teenagers. I'm sure they could be very creative in the usage of these in the various campus buildings, especially on their version of the sabbath.
ReplyDeleteDennisCDiehl said...
ReplyDelete'Studies recently conducted found that MOMS who stayed home from weekly Sabbath Services and Holy Days in the various Churches of God:'
Interesting list of results of these studies - however, could you tell us please Dennis - just who carried out these surveys, and who did they ask?
Or is it just Dennis giving us your views on the results of an imaginary survey?
Nobody wants overbearing, overgrown little boys like Joel preaching nonsense at their kids while they're trying to play with their toy cars either.
ReplyDeleteQ. Ummm, it's meaningful humor
ReplyDeletePerhaps the little juvenile delinquents could fly drones equipped with cameras. You might even catch a apostle,prophet, one or two witness doing a questionable activity.
ReplyDelete‘Q. Ummm, it's meaningful humor’
ReplyDeleteWell, maybe Dennis, to someone as familiar with COG ways of the past as you and me. (And maybe not so past for some groups).
But someone not so familiar could suppose that surveys were actually taken, seeing that does happen in lots of areas of life outside of COGS.
I wonder if they would also think the following quote from that same 1965 article was ‘meaningful humor?’:-
“Many parents expect their child to automatically go to sleep on the pallet. When they don’t, mother or father has to walk out of church as many as three or four times to spank the child before he finally goes to sleep.
There is certainly nothing wrong with spanking a child to make him go to sleep….”
But the world was a different place fifty years ago in the 1960’s, as were the COGS. The world has changed, and so have many (but not all) of the COGs.
Would that it were true that the WCG had simply mirrored the behavioral patterns of past decades. They did not. WCG childrearing exceeded the worst that "the world" had to offer. WCG racial segregation persisted long after "the world" began attempting to make amends and repairs. These examples of horrible badness? Why they were taught as being "God's way". "The truth", etc.
ReplyDeleteRevisionists always seem to need to whitewash.
Well, my lighter point was that any woman or anyone is probably going to have a better quality of life, mentally and emotionally, if they avoid sermons and services conducted by the likes of Flurry, Pack and Meredith etc. It was meant in the same vein as "Stay home from church and save 10, 20 or even 30%"
ReplyDeleteOf course there are many practices inflicted by many different minister types interpreting the Bible as they go and making it mean what it never meant or believing that ancient practices have modern applications, that are ludicrous and very harmful if followed. I was not speaking of these.
Personally , with my boys when young, I was more the "come let us reason together " with them rather than "spare the rod" dad. I didn't grow up with much corporal punishment my folks opting for the kinder and more gentle approach of explaining what the problem was and how to avoid it . I always thought GTA's "Plain Truth About Childrearing" was less than a stellar publication and paid little attention to it as if it was authoritative or anything more than just his opinion, which would be something to do or not do if one agreed or didn't.
The Bible is horrible book on child rearing unless you are into stoning, beating the occasional "I"m going to sacrifice you if the voices in my head tell me to" approach.
Like the sign outside a town I lived in said, "Love Jesus or burn forever in Hell." That's another way of saying, "Love Daddy or I'll kill you." Poor parenting at its worst.
Dennis, I understand where you are coming from with your original comment, and I was maybe being ‘over sensitive’ on it.
ReplyDeleteInteresting your approach to child rearing – I would go along with that – pity you weren’t my minister at the time! We had several very tense years with our minister because we were using your style with our kids. It was only resolved when the ministers were moved around, and we had a more ‘hands off’ minister, and we could actually relax at church.
But we are talking some years ago – in my experience things have improved a very large amount – but not in all groups.
As regards the Bible being a horrible book on childrearing – have you ever read Samuel Martin’s book ‘Thy Rod and Thy Staff They Comfort Me’. (He is the son of ex WCG’s Ernest Martin). He makes the point that the Bible nowhere advocates the use of corporal punishment on children. That the only references to any form of corporal punishment is for older kids of at least teenage years.
My comment on Jepthah, showing that a fair and unbiased reading of the scriptures shows that his daughter was not sacrificed, unfortunately fell victim to your recent purge of some of your recent articles and their comments.
Perhaps the PCG ministry has a big problem with, "Flying Paper Airplanes out of bathroom windows at Church", because kids were writing things on those paper airplanes' wings, like, "HELP US, WE'RE HOSTAGES IN A CRAZY CHURCH AND ABOUT TO BE 'BATHROOM BEATEN' !!!"
ReplyDeleteYou know things are really bad in the splintered WCG when one of its splinters has to resurrect a 1950s letter from the lesser known first born son and heir apparent of the Apostle Herbert Armstrong. Sheesh!
ReplyDeleteRichard
ReplyDeleteDennisCDiehl said...
“I always thought GTA's 'Plain Truth About Childrearing' was less than a stellar publication and paid little attention to it as if it was authoritative or anything more than just his opinion, which would be something to do or not do if one agreed or didn't.”
It is interesting that GTA wrote The Plain Truth About Child Beating when, in fact, GTA was always one of the most spoiled-rotten brats around and needed a severe spanking more than any little children did.
ReplyDeleteLittle PCG boys need to learn to keep as quiet as possible and to hide out as best they can so no filthy old PCG Deaconesses come around to handle them.
Questeruk, you mention Samuel Martins book about childrearing. I haven't read it, but I know he is against corporal punishment of young chidren. I believe he himself has 2 daughters who are still "young". I find it interesting that you say something about Biblical references of corporal punishment are for older and teenage children.
ReplyDeleteUmmmm, actually I would have to disagree on that one. Once a child is old enough to reason and understand I really don't think there is any excuse to hit them. Ever try hitting a teenage boy who is bigger and stronger than you? Talk about provoking your children to wrath. And a teenage girl, that sort of gets a bit kinky if a father is doing it to a girl over say 13. If Samuel thinks corporal punishment is ok for teenagers, then that is because he hasn't got there yet (not sure what he thinks about it).
Really there is no way to excuse or defend the Bible in this matter, it is paternalistic and cruel towards both children and women, and men too. If nothing else works you get stoned or thrown in a burning lake.
And thankfully GTA didn't have any daughters (that we know of).
During one service our minister proposed a Sabbath School which was intended to give children something to do during sermons. The idea was never mentioned again.
ReplyDeleteHa! I'm afraid 12:55 nailed it on that one.
ReplyDeleteDennis Leap is a pervert and male chauvinist pig! Before he was kicked out of the PCG ministry he would use his sermon time to rail against women! He was extremely degrading!
ReplyDeleteHe's an anomaly at PCG HQs. He's no longer minister, but still writes for the church, teaches and has his own church radio program. He wears a leather jacket to services and now berates women and girls in the Auditorium. He verbally attacked a lady one sabbath and she was crying in front of everyone and Dennis wouldn't let up! He's very abusive and Flurry and the other minister goons allow it.
HQs is a strange place! You should take a tour if you're ever in Edmond. It's quite a bit like Willy Wonkas Chocolate Factory, except that you get punishment without the treats!
ReplyDeleteI think I didn’t state what Samuel Martin was saying in his book as well as I might have.
I said “He makes the point that the Bible nowhere advocates the use of corporal punishment on children.”
However, I then said “That the only references to any form of corporal punishment is for older kids of at least teenage years.”
I didn’t state that very well. As I recall, Sam Martin was not saying this in relation to the Bible, but rather he was studying into what traditional Jewish sources over the centuries have stated on this matter.
I understand his position is that corporal punishment should not be needed at all. I was not meaning to suggest that you should start spanking kids once they get to be teenagers!
His book is freely available on internet, so maybe check it out yourself.
After your kids have been bar mitzvahed, you should be able to reason with them, not spank them. The problem was that in Armstrongism, kids did not study with the rabbis, prepare, and then go through the bar mitzvah ceremony. As a poor substitute, they were simply beaten and degraded.
ReplyDeleteI am glad my wife and I did not have children until after we stopped attending wcg church services. I can't imagine trying to keep my two young children quiet on a blanket for two hours.
ReplyDeleteI just wonder what Hitlerker would do if some young boy brought both his cars and Legos to church, and had police Lego characters surround a car, and shoot the black Lego character who had supposedly been the driver of that car. And then had all of the Lego characters organize a protest, which turned into a riot when the police Lego characters fired teargas at them. Now, that would be something to see at the ol' PCG!
ReplyDelete@Miguel,
ReplyDeleteSaid boy will receive a full scholarship from K-12 and 4yrs college at PCG's schools and college and a guaranteed job "if we have not left for the place of safety yet." Why? For demonstrating clear understanding of the "race riots" that are about to engulf this country and cast us into utter division thus giving the Germans a chance to come in under the guise of a UN peace-keeping mission. This fits in with PCG's preachings (except that the Germans will come in via the resurrected Nazis.)
- A former black member of PCG.
Flurry's school of prophets.
ReplyDeleteAnd it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Acts 2:17
K4 to the Grave.