Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
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Friday, November 25, 2016
People Get Sick, People are Swindled, People Die...So What?
A reader here responds:
Anonymous said...
Why don't you just change the name of this website to Bitter Atheists, Agnostics Anonymous, or Tyched In The Head Tares? At least that would be a bit more honest than, "Banned by HWA! Books, News and Observations About Armstrongism and the Churches of God." I feel sorry for you all, but life is not supposed to be perfect. People get sick, people are sometimes swindled, people die, but it is not all always someone else's fault. This is, after all, Satan's world, we have evil fallen human nature, and we are to overcome and grow, with God's help, not wallow in sorrow and anger. Leave the wallowing in sorrow and anger to the demons.
I realized long ago that the laws of probability mean that good and bad often happen randomly, and sometimes when we least expect them. I get that. You just deal with it. In some cases, we feel the hand of God in our lives, meaning that in some cases, we are blessed by being made exceptions to the laws of probability.
A rational thinker is going to make adjustments for random good or bad, because in the case of bad, not sucking it up or rolling with it can actually multiply the badness. In the case of good, wrong or negative (Armsrongist) thinking can negate the goodness we'd otherwise just simply receive and accept.
The problem becomes that when we've allowed an influencer into our lives who has a pattern of causing badness for us, or in the lives of others, there is a delicate line to be walked. You don't want to blame all of your problems on that person, as that would render you incapable of rectifying the problems that they did not cause. However, you want to exclude the influencers so that the damage will no longer continue for you personally, and to then warn others, to bring out into the open the specific instances of badness which they clearly did cause and are still causing. You want others to have the opportunity to remove themselves from exposure to toxicity. For all but a very few, Armsrongism has been a veritable Rappaccini's Garden. In fact, the tale of Rappaccini and his daughter is a succinct allegory or metaphor for Herbert W. Armstrong (Rappaccini) and his church members (the daughter). As we know today, HWA was even a poisonous figure in the life of his own daughter, Dorothy.
I wonder if you aren't dealing with an internal struggle of your own? You seem to be angry with the very people who are exposing the problem, and not the people whose continued false prophecies spend, waste, and ruin peoples' lives needlessly. But, you've got to make your own decision. We've made ours.
God's hand also corrects those he is working with.
My experience was that Mr. Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God were blessed by God, good works were done, the little flock was fed, people grew in grace and knowledge, the gospel of the Kingdom of God was preached worldwide, reaching all nations. Then, as the Apostle Paul was inspired to say:
"I know that false teachers, like vicious wolves, will come in among you after I leave, not sparing the flock."-Acts 20:29, Holy Bible, New Living Translation (NLT)
This business concerning HWA and Dorothy are, at best, second and third hand accounts mentioned in a third rate local newspaper, in connection with claims made in a divorce proceeding. (As most people know, wild, often untrue, accusations are made against people in divorce proceedings.) That amounts to nothing but gossip. If such a thing ever happened, HWA may very well have repented long, long before. That is between him and God. Remember what happened with King David and Bathsheba, Uriah, the Hittite, King David's repentance, and God subsequently calling him a man after His own heart.
How would anyone reading from this site know if the claims made against these ministers and their organized churches are true? There would have to be spies within those church organizations (tares, grievous wolves, etc.). Also, the manner of the commentary on alleged sermon snippets from such ministers as Mr. David Pack are vicious and hardly made in Christian love on this site, from what I have read.
Dear Anon in the post; Not all of us who comment and read this blog are "Bitter Atheists, Agnostics Anonymous, or Tyched (sic) In The Head Tares". Many are. But some of us still believe in God and the bible. Yes Herb turned to SHIT. Perhaps because of blackmail about the incest, or other things. I think Stan Rader, Dr. hoeh, and the mysterious Robert L Kuhn, had allot to do with this fiddling about. Some have suggested that the CIA was also a party to these things.(i.e. A private citizen talking to world leaders). This would get the attention of the state department for sure. Dr. Kuhn is now involved in Chinese diplomacy. interesting! Do we know every thing that happened? I think we'll all be surprised at the depth of all these things. So don't feel alone in your observations about some of the commenters who post on this blog.
lol, why are you here? Choosing to seek what has been banned by God's most loyal spokesman! Do you now think that maybe HWA didn't have your best intentions in his heart when he had other things going through his mind? Maybe some stones are better left unturned. Or would you prefer to just stone the victims to win the approval of a self-professed Man of God? Scapegoatism is NOT salvation!
I've said from the day that I read "Tangled Web" that I wished that the information about the incest had never come out. Why? Because it has acted as a lightning rod, drawing away attention that should have been better devoted to getting into the Bible and disproving the false doctrines, the extrabiblical theories, and the false prophecies which were Herbert W. Armstrong's hook, the scary stuff he used on gullible, theologically ungrounded people, building a church and empire.
Let's face it, though. If all of the ministers and administrators who knew better were able to present a united front to conceal GTA's moral failures for years, (which they indeed did!) the possibility most certainly exists that they would have even made a stronger effort to conceal HWA's. There was some mighty powerful legal wrangling both over "Tangled Web", and over Herbert and Ramona's divorce. Both focussed on the incest issues, and there was strong effort applied to gagging both. Why do we suppose that was done? We've even got the testimony of some of HWA's family members at this point.
Plus, we were left with a profound mystery. If HWA were God's end time apostle, guided and mentored by Father God, then we are forced to accept that God guided HWA to annoint Joseph Tkach as his successor, fully knowing things that HWA may or may not have been aware of himself, like what reforms Mr. Tkach was going to make to the church. Yet there are numerous individuals who insist that either a horrible mistake was made, or that Satan has been allowed to render the end time work totally ineffective and impotent. What if God fully intended the church to be brought to a better understanding of the New Covenant, and to be led to reject all of the cultic extrabiblical theories that HWA had embraced? If that was God's goal, then many people have failed an important test. And if it was not, and HWA actually had made a very critical mistake, then he was capable of making other mistakes, a fact that makes it necessary to reexamine every decision he ever made in the history of his ministry. Truly, there is a real dilemma here! Either way, HWA ends up being in the wrong! And this is only made worse with the passing of time, thirty + years beyond HWA's death, and 40 + years beyond the earlier time frame of 1972-75 for the Armstrong prophecy mold to kick in. That's 30-40 years of Armstrongite ministers gripping their members in abject fear, totally unnecessarily.
This is all a ridiculously complex mess, one which requires years, much thought, and much prayer to sort out! We may not always appear to be dealing with the splinters in a Christian manner, but every odd ball with every crackpot theory has attempted to emerge as the heir apparent to something that God may well have wanted to be changed in the first place. Years ago, someone posted a comment that makes more sense than just about any other explanation for the current state of the Armstrong empire: "It appears as if all the splinters have been spewed from the mouth of God"
The is nothing new under the sun. From such sin turn away. But turn back to God. Biblical truths do not belong to HWA or TKATCH they are mere men. God is God He is the IAM. Who bend their knee to God and keep HIS commandments is more important than being tangled with dead mens sins.
HWA as a talented person was used in a powerfull way by powers beyond his grasp. He was surrounded by connected men who to this day exert powerful influence by the sponsoring of the very same causes WCG was directed to after 1969.
After hwa death there was no use for WCG as the funding base of operations.
I posted part of an artice (black ops mickey knows the source) where it was stated that during the cold war the cia influenced 400 American journalist through direct operations.
HWA referred to himself as a newsreporter a hundred more times than an apostle and even said that word meant "one sent to deliver a message."
The PT was one of the biggest magazines in the world in terms of circulation. And it was filled with Americanisms, United Europe articles and support for American, Canadian or British Nationals like the Kings of Thailand, Jordan, Iran and various Northern European countries.
That is your perspective, nck! Try seeing it from the new guy's point of view, or that of someone who is still deeply into their splinter group. They've got a dilemma in which HWA's fallibility must be suppressed or limited in order to make sense of it all.
Making HWA a secular figure, a pawn to the intelligence community or the globalists isn't something that the broad majority of people who are or were part of the Armstrong movement would wrap their minds around.
But you must admit that those like you who wouldnt wrap their minds around it did not know that the King that highly decorated HWA with distinction was an American citizen.
Now if only that fact would be recognized "by those that would not wrap their minds around it" then the first crack would appear in the understanding into what WCG actually was and what the world was in which hwa operated as a "mailman."
For those interested I would direct them to the persona of "Mercury" "the Messenger" and God of "trade". (Trade which is the definition of the "unseen hand" re: Adam Smith as taught in every high school of the land.)
I am really sorry for those that stepped into the "religion trick" that is perpetuated upon the commoners since Constantine the Great and perfected by Edward Bernays in the age of mass communication and mass democracy.
That's great, nck, except that the overt to which we or our parents were attracted was that advance knowledge and practice of correct religious beliefs would save us from the punishment which was going to come upon English-speaking white people for forgetting their identity, their culture, and their God. Participation in an international global conspiracy never entered into that equation except as second-guessing after the fact. Methinks that someone is adding 7+7 and coming up with 13.
People here mention God and the bible all the time. Have any of you thought that if there be a "God" that this being would be so much more than the bible god? I cannot conceive that "God" would use a cretin like herbie armstrong to reach the world. To do so is like having Subway Sandwiches having a pedophile continuing to promote their products. They would lose all their credibility.
So if the bible god is a promoter of evil I suspect he/she/it would use such an evil man as herbie armstrong to promote his ideology/commands/religion.
And yet the armstrongites will double down on stupid and blaspheme and continue to pursue hwa's theology.
Do they love God? No. They love the errors of their ways.
Who would have thought at the time in Germany that the democratically chosen law and order man building infrastructure and creating jobs for the middle classes, making Germany great again would turn into the overt demon. Only a few, I agree.
Or at the height of the British Empire. Would there be anyone even attempting to question Rhodes or the advancement of progress at the behest of supression.
I agree fully. Who at the height of the Cold War and the American Empire in their right mind would have questioned US foreign aid and direct investment through Rotary Clubs to feeble allies.
It is common for historians to interpret events of the past. But who can see what is happening now, let alone predict the future.
There is raging debate currently on the consumption of news from Facebook and conclusions that seem to have been drawn from fake news.
My hope is that participating citizens will always take a critical look at their current perceptions of reality as Zeitgeist demands of them, or seems to be common belief in their current place and timeframe. It also means not to embrace "conspiracy theories" but to study, work hard, pay the price, pay ones mortgage and beware of the "deliverers" that promise instant solutions.
The name is just fine.
ReplyDeleteAlthough the one should change their name to swindler or psychopath as the case might be.
What about the names that these pretenders use?
ReplyDeleteFor example. I am God's minister! Many that have done this, have abused that privilege, by abusing and making poor the flocks.
Why don't they really name themselves what they truly are.
Hi. Whitey the Christian here!
ReplyDeleteI realized long ago that the laws of probability mean that good and bad often happen randomly, and sometimes when we least expect them. I get that. You just deal with it. In some cases, we feel the hand of God in our lives, meaning that in some cases, we are blessed by being made exceptions to the laws of probability.
A rational thinker is going to make adjustments for random good or bad, because in the case of bad, not sucking it up or rolling with it can actually multiply the badness. In the case of good, wrong or negative (Armsrongist) thinking can negate the goodness we'd otherwise just simply receive and accept.
The problem becomes that when we've allowed an influencer into our lives who has a pattern of causing badness for us, or in the lives of others, there is a delicate line to be walked. You don't want to blame all of your problems on that person, as that would render you incapable of rectifying the problems that they did not cause. However, you want to exclude the influencers so that the damage will no longer continue for you personally, and to then warn others, to bring out into the open the specific instances of badness which they clearly did cause and are still causing. You want others to have the opportunity to remove themselves from exposure to toxicity. For all but a very few, Armsrongism has been a veritable Rappaccini's Garden. In fact, the tale of Rappaccini and his daughter is a succinct allegory or metaphor for Herbert W. Armstrong (Rappaccini) and his church members (the daughter). As we know today, HWA was even a poisonous figure in the life of his own daughter, Dorothy.
I wonder if you aren't dealing with an internal struggle of your own? You seem to be angry with the very people who are exposing the problem, and not the people whose continued false prophecies spend, waste, and ruin peoples' lives needlessly. But, you've got to make your own decision. We've made ours.
BB
God's hand also corrects those he is working with.
ReplyDeleteMy experience was that Mr. Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God were blessed by God, good works were done, the little flock was fed, people grew in grace and knowledge, the gospel of the Kingdom of God was preached worldwide, reaching all nations. Then, as the Apostle Paul was inspired to say:
"I know that false teachers, like vicious wolves, will come in among you after I leave, not sparing the flock."-Acts 20:29, Holy Bible, New Living Translation (NLT)
This business concerning HWA and Dorothy are, at best, second and third hand accounts mentioned in a third rate local newspaper, in connection with claims made in a divorce proceeding. (As most people know, wild, often untrue, accusations are made against people in divorce proceedings.) That amounts to nothing but gossip. If such a thing ever happened, HWA may very well have repented long, long before. That is between him and God. Remember what happened with King David and Bathsheba, Uriah, the Hittite, King David's repentance, and God subsequently calling him a man after His own heart.
How would anyone reading from this site know if the claims made against these ministers and their organized churches are true? There would have to be spies within those church organizations (tares, grievous wolves, etc.). Also, the manner of the commentary on alleged sermon snippets from such ministers as Mr. David Pack are vicious and hardly made in Christian love on this site, from what I have read.
Bitter Atheists, Agnostics Anonymous, or Tyched In The Head Tares?
ReplyDeleteBanned is an open forum. A name like you suggest is very restrictive and does not reflect the broad cross-section of contributors.
Dear Anon in the post;
ReplyDeleteNot all of us who comment and read this blog are "Bitter Atheists, Agnostics Anonymous, or Tyched (sic) In The Head Tares". Many are. But some of us still believe in God and the bible. Yes Herb turned to SHIT. Perhaps because of blackmail about the incest, or other things. I think Stan Rader, Dr. hoeh, and the mysterious Robert L Kuhn, had allot to do with this fiddling about. Some have suggested that the CIA was also a party to these things.(i.e. A private citizen talking to world leaders). This would get the attention of the state department for sure. Dr. Kuhn is now involved in Chinese diplomacy. interesting! Do we know every thing that happened? I think we'll all be surprised at the depth of all these things. So don't feel alone in your observations about some of the commenters who post on this blog.
"Banned by HWA!"
ReplyDeletelol, why are you here? Choosing to seek what has been banned by God's most loyal spokesman!
Do you now think that maybe HWA didn't have your best intentions in his heart when he had other things going through his mind? Maybe some stones are better left unturned. Or would you prefer to just stone the victims to win the approval of a self-professed Man of God?
Scapegoatism is NOT salvation!
DBP
I've said from the day that I read "Tangled Web" that I wished that the information about the incest had never come out. Why? Because it has acted as a lightning rod, drawing away attention that should have been better devoted to getting into the Bible and disproving the false doctrines, the extrabiblical theories, and the false prophecies which were Herbert W. Armstrong's hook, the scary stuff he used on gullible, theologically ungrounded people, building a church and empire.
ReplyDeleteLet's face it, though. If all of the ministers and administrators who knew better were able to present a united front to conceal GTA's moral failures for years, (which they indeed did!) the possibility most certainly exists that they would have even made a stronger effort to conceal HWA's. There was some mighty powerful legal wrangling both over "Tangled Web", and over Herbert and Ramona's divorce. Both focussed on the incest issues, and there was strong effort applied to gagging both. Why do we suppose that was done? We've even got the testimony of some of HWA's family members at this point.
Plus, we were left with a profound mystery. If HWA were God's end time apostle, guided and mentored by Father God, then we are forced to accept that God guided HWA to annoint Joseph Tkach as his successor, fully knowing things that HWA may or may not have been aware of himself, like what reforms Mr. Tkach was going to make to the church. Yet there are numerous individuals who insist that either a horrible mistake was made, or that Satan has been allowed to render the end time work totally ineffective and impotent. What if God fully intended the church to be brought to a better understanding of the New Covenant, and to be led to reject all of the cultic extrabiblical theories that HWA had embraced? If that was God's goal, then many people have failed an important test. And if it was not, and HWA actually had made a very critical mistake, then he was capable of making other mistakes, a fact that makes it necessary to reexamine every decision he ever made in the history of his ministry. Truly, there is a real dilemma here! Either way, HWA ends up being in the wrong! And this is only made worse with the passing of time, thirty + years beyond HWA's death, and 40 + years beyond the earlier time frame of 1972-75 for the Armstrong prophecy mold to kick in. That's 30-40 years of Armstrongite ministers gripping their members in abject fear, totally unnecessarily.
This is all a ridiculously complex mess, one which requires years, much thought, and much prayer to sort out! We may not always appear to be dealing with the splinters in a Christian manner, but every odd ball with every crackpot theory has attempted to emerge as the heir apparent to something that God may well have wanted to be changed in the first place. Years ago, someone posted a comment that makes more sense than just about any other explanation for the current state of the Armstrong empire: "It appears as if all the splinters have been spewed from the mouth of God"
BB
The is nothing new under the sun. From such sin turn away. But turn back to God. Biblical truths do not belong to HWA or TKATCH they are mere men. God is God He is the IAM. Who bend their knee to God and keep HIS commandments is more important than being tangled with dead mens sins.
DeleteBB,
ReplyDeleteIt is not complex at all.
HWA as a talented person was used in a powerfull way by powers beyond his grasp.
He was surrounded by connected men who to this day exert powerful influence by the sponsoring of the very same causes WCG was directed to after 1969.
After hwa death there was no use for WCG as the funding base of operations.
nck
In the case my original posting may not surface.
ReplyDeleteI posted part of an artice (black ops mickey knows the source) where it was stated that during the cold war the cia influenced 400 American journalist through direct operations.
HWA referred to himself as a newsreporter a hundred more times than an apostle and even said that word meant "one sent to deliver a message."
The PT was one of the biggest magazines in the world in terms of circulation.
And it was filled with Americanisms, United Europe articles and support for American, Canadian or British Nationals like the Kings of Thailand, Jordan, Iran and various Northern European countries.
nck
nck
That is your perspective, nck! Try seeing it from the new guy's point of view, or that of someone who is still deeply into their splinter group. They've got a dilemma in which HWA's fallibility must be suppressed or limited in order to make sense of it all.
ReplyDeleteMaking HWA a secular figure, a pawn to the intelligence community or the globalists isn't something that the broad majority of people who are or were part of the Armstrong movement would wrap their minds around.
BB
Thank you BB,
ReplyDeleteYour comment makes sense to me.
But you must admit that those like you who wouldnt wrap their minds around it did not know that the King that highly decorated HWA with distinction was an American citizen.
Now if only that fact would be recognized "by those that would not wrap their minds around it" then the first crack would appear in the understanding into what WCG actually was and what the world was in which hwa operated as a "mailman."
For those interested I would direct them to the persona of "Mercury" "the Messenger" and God of "trade". (Trade which is the definition of the "unseen hand" re: Adam Smith as taught in every high school of the land.)
I am really sorry for those that stepped into the "religion trick" that is perpetuated upon the commoners since Constantine the Great and perfected by Edward Bernays in the age of mass communication and mass democracy.
nck
That's great, nck, except that the overt to which we or our parents were attracted was that advance knowledge and practice of correct religious beliefs would save us from the punishment which was going to come upon English-speaking white people for forgetting their identity, their culture, and their God. Participation in an international global conspiracy never entered into that equation except as second-guessing after the fact. Methinks that someone is adding 7+7 and coming up with 13.
ReplyDeleteBB
People here mention God and the bible all the time. Have any of you thought that if there be a "God" that this being would be so much more than the bible god? I cannot conceive that "God" would use a cretin like herbie armstrong to reach the world. To do so is like having Subway Sandwiches having a pedophile continuing to promote their products. They would lose all their credibility.
ReplyDeleteSo if the bible god is a promoter of evil I suspect he/she/it would use such an evil man as herbie armstrong to promote his ideology/commands/religion.
And yet the armstrongites will double down on stupid and blaspheme and continue to pursue hwa's theology.
Do they love God?
No. They love the errors of their ways.
You forgot the gospel of boners, nck.
ReplyDeleteBB,
ReplyDeleteThat is an extremely insightful comment you made.
Who would have thought at the time in Germany that the democratically chosen law and order man building infrastructure and creating jobs for the middle classes, making Germany great again would turn into the overt demon. Only a few, I agree.
Or at the height of the British Empire. Would there be anyone even attempting to question Rhodes or the advancement of progress at the behest of supression.
I agree fully.
Who at the height of the Cold War and the American Empire in their right mind would have questioned US foreign aid and direct investment through Rotary Clubs to feeble allies.
It is common for historians to interpret events of the past. But who can see what is happening now, let alone predict the future.
There is raging debate currently on the consumption of news from Facebook and conclusions that seem to have been drawn from fake news.
My hope is that participating citizens will always take a critical look at their current perceptions of reality as Zeitgeist demands of them, or seems to be common belief in their current place and timeframe. It also means not to embrace "conspiracy theories" but to study, work hard, pay the price, pay ones mortgage and beware of the "deliverers" that promise instant solutions.