"I have prayed for Gavin Rumney over the years and hope he did not commit the unpardonable sin "
Bob Thiel
Matthew 12; 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Luke 12:10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven
In 26 years of ministry I never thought or met anyone I personally could label as having "committed the unpardonable sin." All "sin" (and this may have reflected my less judgmental Presbyterian upbringing) was forgivable and pretty understandable. There are things people can't come to believe and there are things , with time, good folk no longer believe.
No one I knew would think to deliberately speak against Jesus or blaspheme intentionally just for sport or being foolishly filled with carnal bravado. In my previous life, leaving the church or not going along with this or that decree of the Magisterium might be construed as "unpardonable" since it was God's True Church one was defying, but I even doubted that because all the scandal, flip flops, questionable proof texting, theories, ideas and goofy personalities didn't seem unpardonable for getting tired of. This would be true of all organized churches.
No one I knew would think to deliberately speak against Jesus or blaspheme intentionally just for sport or being foolishly filled with carnal bravado. In my previous life, leaving the church or not going along with this or that decree of the Magisterium might be construed as "unpardonable" since it was God's True Church one was defying, but I even doubted that because all the scandal, flip flops, questionable proof texting, theories, ideas and goofy personalities didn't seem unpardonable for getting tired of. This would be true of all organized churches.
Just as I never ever ever met anyone who boldly claim to be in the false church or knowing they were deceived by Satan or some other organization, I never met anyone who thought anything they did was unpardonable if they ever changed their minds on what was real and true. No one goes to the false church. NO ONE. Just ask them.
I'm sure Dave Pack and his ilk, such as Bob Thiel believe we all have committed unpardonable sin because we notice problems of thought and teaching and problem personalities in the leadership of the splits, splinters and slivers . I have been accused of that and thrown into the future Lake of Fire for coming to see , for me, the truth of evolution and embracing errancy and origin issues found in the scriptures as well as some historical realities . I have never lost any sleep over personal concerns for my theological future. Beliefs are not the same as what is actually true.
So.... Rather than post someone's theological view on this topic , of which there are many, Just What Do You Mean Unpardonable Sin? Who do you know committed it? What did they do to commit it? Are the Gospels playing control and fear games with the audience?
Why can't such things, whatever they are just be forgiven and come under the New Testament formula of :
Matthew 11:28-30 “… Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
So.... Rather than post someone's theological view on this topic , of which there are many, Just What Do You Mean Unpardonable Sin? Who do you know committed it? What did they do to commit it? Are the Gospels playing control and fear games with the audience?
Why can't such things, whatever they are just be forgiven and come under the New Testament formula of :
Matthew 11:28-30 “… Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
Ephesians 1:7-10 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Talk to me...
Matthew 11:28-30 “ Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
ReplyDeleteThis is one NT scripture the COG's NEVER got right. Those sitting in Dave's RCG wondering what the hell he is going to theorize about next need to consider it.
And in the same chapter as we find Mary, who should have remembered his miraculous birth in Matthew and Luke, and his brothers came down to Jerusalem to ..
ReplyDeleteMark 3:21 When his family[b] heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”
...which I would also imagine counted as unpardonable in the context of the chapter and rendering the Virgin Mary in quite a bit of theological trouble?
I hope Bob Thiel hasn't committed the Unpardonable Sin by appointing and ordaining himself a prophet and a dreamer of dreams that mean nothing
ReplyDeletebob thiel's spiel and everything about the wus is unpardonable; period.
ReplyDeletebob thiel doubly blessed?
ReplyDeleteNO!
Better make that doubly unpardonable!
This is something that "they" seized upon, co-opted, and applied to themselves in a way that would shore up their own power. HWA had written a 1960s PT or GN article in which he stated that disagreeing with him was tantamount to blasphemy of the HS.
ReplyDeleteIt goes along with the rest of the mentality. Claiming that under Jesus' Melchizedek priesthood, they are the modern equivalent of the Levites and entitled to the tithes. They inherit the keys (primacy) of Peter, and get to loose and bind rules. The new book of Acts is now being written in heaven, and covers all of their activities. They have restored and teach the proper doctrines, the understanding of which opens to them alone the understanding of end times prophecy. They are apostles and prophets and the two witnesses.
How would you prove that such extravagant statements and claims are true? It should be self-obvious that stating and restating them neither constitutes proof, nor makes them true. Fruits and miracles would go a long way towards validation, as would accuracy of prophecy. However, these are neither significant, nor are they present. HWA often cited open doors, gun laps, and 30% growth. What ACOG splinter can do more than conjure up fake statistics or outright fabrications to imitate HWA in this fashion?
No, this is a pattern of usurpation. It is what Deuteronomy calls presumptuousness. Bob Thiel or any other small footnotes to the Armstrong movement are not the arbiters of what constitutes blasphemy, rebellion, or even simple disobedience. They make it all about themselves. Properly discerning and holding accountable the false prophets and false teachers, ie the usurpers, the grievers, the presumptuous, as an activity, is limited to precisely that. That is wholesome activity in which we ought to participate as part of spiritual cleanliness. It doesn't somehow magically or mystically expand into blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Proving that someone has a degree which does not meet the basic standards of established academia does not constitute blasphemy. Neither does having deep inner questions about St. Paul or the canon.
On the other hand, false prophets are invited to a future barbecue of sorts. Where's the beef? The beef is them! One thing HWA stated is often true. He said he'd found that the accuser is usually the doer. I'm thinking that the recent passing of Gavin Rumney should cause introspection amongst those to whom Gavin applied accountability. Bob Thiel should not be worried about Gavin. He should be worried about himself!
BB
"I hope Bob Thiel hasn't committed the Unpardonable Sin by appointing and ordaining himself a prophet and a dreamer of dreams that mean nothing"
ReplyDeleteOh, he probably has -- and so have all the rest of the 1% Armstrongists -- and not because Gavin and the rest of us haven't warned them.
But we can't worry about that right now....
Me thinks bitter Bob is an atheist and is this religious huskerism just for the money $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
ReplyDeleteAs we've recently been reminded, Armstrongism is partially based on bias-confirmation prayer. Need to know if you have a special purpose or mission? Don't look for actual fruits or tangible success. Wait for a warm fuzzy feeling as your answer, a feeling that is most likely caused by your own desire in certain directions. That's where all of these resultless false prophets and teachers come from. They imagine during prayer that they have some great purpose or mission, make a big splash telling everyone about it, and then we watch them fail because the warm fuzzy feeling wasn't God's answer. It was only something that came from inside of themselves.
ReplyDeleteWhen they set themselves up as judges, and begin condemning Gavin, or football, they're only demonstrating that their message is from Babble-On, and that's after they've already crossed de Nile!
BB
When I started to attend services in the former WCG, I met people who had been baptized 10 to 20 years, and it was obvious that they hadn't changed and grown the slightest since baptism. They were lawless.
ReplyDeleteNot growing as a Christian, that is the REAL unpardonable sin.
One of GTA’s catchphrases was Sincere, but sincerely wrong. Of the COGleaders, I don’t know who is sincerely wrong on who is insincerely wrong. And I’m not certain which of those two is the more dangerous.
ReplyDeleteOf course Gavin hasn't committed "the unpardonable sin." Nobody has. There's no such thing as "sin." "Sin" is merely an invention of men, men not different from Bob Thiel, with the exception that those hucksters lived in antiquity. Bob is simply one of ~42,000 people who have decided to open a franchise of the world's oldest Ponzi scheme.
ReplyDeleteReligion is like Amway, except the soap is invisible and a LOT more expensive.
It's a puzzlement really. I don't know that much and perhaps someone here can answer the question. I've thought about it and thought about it, but I just can't see how it could ever be. So if any of you out there can help....
ReplyDeleteThe thing is... well... do these people actually expect anyone to take them seriously?
Really?
Why?
It is very difficult to measure spiritual growth in the first place. We as humans tend to control and modify or remove ourselves from certain environments in an effort to minimize the negatives which trigger bad reactions and emotions.
ReplyDeleteAs an example, suppose you were married to a flagrant button pusher. It made you angry, vindictive, and retaliatory. Not very Christlike, correctimundo? So you got a divorce and 90% of the anger issues faded away. Does that fade consitute spiritual growth? No. Spiritual growth would be if you had to live with that person again, and his or her button pushing were now incapable of prompting rage within you.
Basically, if you have grown spiritually, you should be able to be placed in a set of circumstances where you previously had reacted poorly, and be able to achieve more optimal results the second time around. (This of course does NOT include being sent back into a bogus and toxic ACOG!!!) That's a tough one. There are not that many people who could pass that kind of test.
BB
Questions asked were: "...Just What Do You Mean Unpardonable Sin? Who do you know committed it? What did they do to commit it? Are the Gospels playing control and fear games with the audience?..."
ReplyDeleteDiscussing this "Unpardonable Sin" is like talking about Christ's "Second Coming."
One cannot even find those 2 phrases contained within quotation marks anywhere in the Bible, so why discuss them?
For example, people want to get all excited about Christ's "Second Coming" while they turn a blind eye to Jesus returning to earth a second time, a "Second Coming," and hanging around for about 40 days before returning to His Father in Heaven.
It all sounds rather stupid...stupid making up phrases and building theories and doctrines around those made-up phrases.
And the Unpardonable Sin? Well, comment was made saying: "...Why can't such things, whatever they are just be forgiven and come under the New Testament formula of:..." and several verses are quoted.
I personally like that 2 Corinthians 5:19, which says:
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, NOT IMPUTING their TRESPASSES unto them..."
Pretty nice deal it that works out as stated, but it something most cogs won't mention.
Another verse I like that was not included in the first listing regarding the Unpardonable Sin is:
"Verily I say unto you, ALL SINS SHALL BE FORGIVEN UNTO the sons of MEN, AND BLASPHEMIES wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:" Mark 3:28
For any not believing that 2 Corinthians 5:19 and Mark 3:28 are not true:
Well, time will tell...
John
I have a theory, bare with me: What if, instead of taking the Bible out of context (speaking to the ministry) to further an agenda usually directed at some poor lay member, we look at Mark 3:29 in "context".
ReplyDeleteDoes the Bible not tell us over and over, that God the father, and his son are one? Is not "unity" a focal point of the writers in the New Testament? If this is true, then let us look at Mark 3:29 again, but this time, we will go back to verse 22, and read the story as it progresses to verse 29.
Mark 3:22-29 (KJV)
22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Is division, not the context leading up to this "unpardonable sin"? I submit, that division, which is of Satan, and not Unity, which is of God, might be the unpardonable sin, and if so, the main culprits are the ministry. They continue to divide brethren, they continue to hang milstones and uproot children of God. God says in Jeremiah, that it is his ministry that has scattered his flock, and he will have to gather them back together.
I don't know, you be the judges.
flagrant button pusher
ReplyDeleteAnd there are those button-pushers, inside and outside COGs, who can cause the pushee to mask any sign of real spiritual growth.
I was considering copying RCMs old letter to Bitter Bob just so we can see how much Bob hasnt changed in his egotism and obnoxiousness, but decided that would be too much for thread viewers to scroll through as the thread expanded. Let's just say that as obnoxious as RCM is, even he saw Bob's unhealthy self-centeredness.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of the day ,Gavin has not committed the "unpardonable sin".
ReplyDeleteThiel ,do you realise that the tongue is such a small object ,yet from it comes so much .....
No,it is not about Gavin at all.
It's about Thiel.
Thiel is obsessed about himself.
That's why he started up HIS OWN church,to get what he would never get at LCG or elsewhere.So he could be the centre of attention.
He disliked Gavin because Gav saw him as he was and spoke the truth about Thiel.
Taking pot shots at Gavin,how that he is gone is typical of this type of individual.
It is called taking revenge.And we know what God said about that.
You should be afraid Thiel for your untimely comments.
I cannot edit people's comments. What you can do is repost the comment with the corrections and delete your original..or I can once your edited version is up.
ReplyDelete5.29 PM
ReplyDeleteUnity is a commie/tyranny theme. They use it as a pretence to silence and jail critics and dissidents. So it is hardly surprising that Herbie and friends latched onto this theme. Christ mentioned justice, mercy, love of God, but not unity in criticising the religious leaders. In fact He said He brought division, setting father against son, mother in law against daughter in law etc.
Oh, well, let the Rumney critics have their time in the sun to violate the Third Commandment and take God's Name in vain.
ReplyDeleteThat way, later on, they can take their time in the nice warm glow of the flames....
ReplyDeleteHoss on December 17, 2016 at 2:02 PM said...“One of GTA’s catchphrases was Sincere, but sincerely wrong. Of the COGleaders, I don’t know who is sincerely wrong on who is insincerely wrong. And I’m not certain which of those two is the more dangerous.”
The answer is that WRONG is WRONG. You could literally waste your entire life wondering whether someone is sincerely WRONG or insincerely WRONG. They could even start out sincerely WRONG, but over time, as they learn better but do not reform, they could become insincerely WRONG. Whatever the case, the WRONG are truly WRONG. The fact is that, either way, their WRONG will be a disaster for you.
For example, if a false prophet like Gerald Flurry wants to break up your family, it does not matter whether he has been so deceived by Satan that he sincerely believes that is what God wants him to do, or whether he is just a malicious pervert who gets his thrills by cruelly tormenting other people and insincerely pretending that it is from God. Either way, the dirty, little dunghead will be nothing but trouble for you.
ReplyDelete“And NO Bob, Gavin did not commit any Unpardonable Sin.”
Bob Thiel needs to worry about himself and whether he is committing an unpardonable sin by implying that the Holy Spirit is inadequate and unsatisfying, and that people need to look to the demons and their pagan prophecies for enlightenment.
Personally, I would not worry too much about Bob, as it appears that he was never truly converted in the first place. Neither would I listen to him.
ReplyDeleteHoss on December 17, 2016 at 2:02 PM said...“One of GTA’s catchphrases was Sincere, but sincerely wrong. Of the COGleaders, I don’t know who is sincerely wrong on who is insincerely wrong. And I’m not certain which of those two is the more dangerous.”
Again, WRONG is WRONG. You do NOT have to go along with someone just because you think he might be, or you think he is, or maybe he even really is, sincerely WRONG.
If someone is WRONG, beware!
If you know better, and yet you go along with someone who is sincerely/insincerely WRONG, that will make you insincerely WRONG, which is in one sense worse for you than if you were insincerely wrong.
FIXED
ReplyDeleteHoss on December 17, 2016 at 2:02 PM said...“One of GTA’s catchphrases was Sincere, but sincerely wrong. Of the COGleaders, I don’t know who is sincerely wrong on who is insincerely wrong. And I’m not certain which of those two is the more dangerous.”
Again, WRONG is WRONG. You do NOT have to go along with someone just because you think he might be, or you think he is, or maybe he even really is, sincerely WRONG.
If someone is WRONG, beware!
If you know better, and yet you go along with someone who is sincerely/insincerely WRONG, that will make you insincerely WRONG, which is in one sense worse for you than if you were sincerely WRONG.
The unpardonable sin has to be a person ending up in the lake of fire. The weeping and gnashing of teeth thingy. So having a unrepentant heart of a demon is the worst sin.
ReplyDeleteSincerely wrong? That's hardly ever the case on major issues. There is too much feedback in todays society for major mistakes to go unchallenged. When rebuked, most sincerely wrong beliefs, become insincerely wrong beliefs.