Superfantabulous Dave Pack claims that the ministers who leave his cult take all the thorns and thistle members with them, thus leaving Dave with the delightful fruit. Of the tens of thousands COG members Dave has been a pastor to over the decades he learned to discern who the "prickly" rebellious members were.
Dave then proceeds to tell everyone that he is a false minister, just like James Malm and Bob Thiel. Look at the people who followed Dave, Bob and James. They have attracted the bottom of the barrel from the COG.One of the interesting things I have learned down through the years…When I watch ministers leave…It could have been Worldwide; sometimes, it was Global, and certainly, in the Restored Church of God. Mr. Armstrong saw hundreds of ministers leave. To some newer brethren it might be surprising if they hear ministers leave. They have been leaving for 2,000 years. Hundreds left while Mr. Armstrong was alive—need we even talk about what they did after he died? It’s a big subject. I have noticed that when ministers leave, invariably, there are a couple of things about them. They never served much. That’s number one—they never served much, and the people who follow them always had, virtually, no fruit. They were thorns and thistles…In the Church, there are always thorns and thistles. They practically poke you at socials and different activities, at times. Down through the decades, I have seen it. I have pastored thousands and thousands and thousands of people, and there are people who are wonderful—warm, loving, spirit-led people—and other people, who God just reduces and says they are thorns and thistles. They are, literally, prickly in some cases. You don’t want to be known as somebody who is prickly. But ministers who leave, take those kinds of people with them.
One of the ways you know a false minister is look at who follows him. Now, Christ’s sheep know His voice, and they don’t follow strangers. What has been exciting to me…I’ve gone back and looked, over the last three-and-a-half years, at the ministers who have left us. Almost all of them—almost all of them—took nobody. We looked back and realized they were terrible ministers. They weren’t serving. They couldn’t take anybody with them. I watched in the earlier years under Mr. Armstrong, sometimes, men would rise up and they would take large numbers. Most of our ministers take no one but their wife and children. A few take a few, and they were always thorns and thistles…problems. Now that might seem strange to you.
Dave is right about the existence of 'thorns and thistles.' Or church crazies as some call them. In my experience, about half of church singles outings were ruined by these loonies. Typically, they played a savage game of king of the hill.
ReplyDeleteDave mixes truth with error (like every good deceiver), so not everything he says should be discarded.
Dave BS-ed: "I’ve gone back and looked, over the last three-and-a-half years, at the ministers who have left us. Almost all of them—almost all of them—took nobody. We looked back and realized they were terrible ministers. They weren’t serving. They couldn’t take anybody with them."
ReplyDeleteNumbers and "taking people with me" have always been Dave's game. Dave is a terrible minister and demonizing people who don't agree with him is the typical route to go to explain to the remaining RCG zombies why they left. Of course they left because they woke up and took nobody because that was not what they were interested in doing and probably rightly concluded they could just get on with their own lives and forget about such delusional concepts as "True minister", "True Church" "Apostles, Prophets and assorted Old Testament Titles and Types" Once burned and all that...
HWA didn't see "hundred" leave. He saw tens of thousands leave. Every church attracts the overly zealous, lonely, troubled and simply strange of personality. So does ministry.
The vast majority of folks , including in WCG and even in the splinters are simply fine and sincere people seeing things as they do and stuck in the misconception that one must find the exact right church with the exact right beliefs that match their own confirmation biases or not be "true Christians" which they want to be.
I do admit to noticing that the fun , normal and easy going guys I knew in their youth that went into the ministry, often changed so much when they did so and took on a persona rather than their personality. Church administration under RCM could do that to you and that occasional visit from HQ could mess you up good lol. It was my life's greatest mistake , so far, to go into the ministry of WCG. I meant well but it could turn a man into an inauthentic actor and was a very unrealistic position to put a man and wife in. While I will always mourn not having pursued a career in paleontology or geology, I am so glad to be free from all of it. Too soon old...
Delusional Dave is a pox on religion. He is clever at times but not intelligent really or he'd not think or say the things he does. His pompous and shallow series on Creationism vs Evolution proved that in spades as well as his current theological delusional rants.
To understand the situation better, read "The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Go Bad" and watch the video The Stanford Prison Experiment.
ReplyDeleteIf you cast David Pack in the role of Dr. Philip Zimbardo, you'll understand the Restored Church of God clearly: Prisoners and guards.
Although the experiment seems so much more benign than what goes on at the RCG.
It's all very chilling.
Afterward, you can take a break by watching season 2 of the Man in the High Castle. It too, is about David Pack, cast in the venue of the German Nazis winning World War II in a science fiction alternative world history timeline. You know, sort of like British Israelism.
The business model for an Armstrong franchise indicates that a franchisee can be relatively successful with as few as 50 tithe payers earning $50,000 per year. That would gross a franchisee into the lower executive level in earning power. Dave is ahead of that curve, but certainly nowhere nearly as successful as your average mega-church pastor in a major city. For that, you would require a personality and message that resonates with a broader cross-section of the general population. That is what would take you out of the realm of minister to the misfits, and empower you amongst the solid ones who form the bedrock of modern civilization. Not to say that fringe types are bad people. But the typical WCG glass ceiling seems to restrict the message to the thistles and thorns. These groups all look for some sort of miracle that would propel them into the mainstream, and it can't possibly happen. Even if it did, the effect would be very temporary. They haven't even convinced sufficient people of the possibility of an emergency, let alone that it is permanent, from God, with the only way out being to join up with them. Their message requires total capitulation. The cost-benefits ratio supporting that is just not on their side, so they indulge in useless flame-fanning. It's all an illusion.
ReplyDeleteBB
SING ALONG TIME! ...
ReplyDelete(Sing along to the tune "Nowhere Man" by the Beatles)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_fb8bVQ98w
"Nowhere Man"
Pack's a real nowhere man
Sitting in his nowhere land
Making all his nowhere plans for nobody
Pack has a twisted point of view
Knows not where he's going to
Glad he's not a bit like you and me!
Nowhere Pack, please listen
You don't know what you're missing
Nowhere Pack, you've lo...sst your mental command!
Pack's as blind as he can be
Just sees what he wants to see
Nowhere Pack can you see truth at all?
Nowhere Pack, don't worry
Take your time, don't hurry
Leave it all... till somebody else... takes away your LA-LA land
Even though megachurch pastors may garner more tithes and offerings than Dave pack, doesn't make any of them less of scumbag(s) than Dave Pack is.
ReplyDeleteIt's odd that anyone would equate numbers of followers or money collected with whether or not any decent God would actually give a crap about those organizations.
Just sees what he wants to see
ReplyDeleteThat one line says it all.
I love sing along time, Connie! I sang along along when I read your post! It was the perfect song for the perfect Pack!
ReplyDeleteRichard
12.20 PM
ReplyDeleteChrist said that his brothers and sisters are those who do Gods will. So even in these mega churches, there are some legit Christians whose prayers God answers.
Here's one I beleive Connie could transpose superbly
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG_wA8RxKOQ
"Master Pack"
The controversies of just who are "legit Christians" is huge!
ReplyDeleteIf we boil it down to people who do good works, and sincerely believe in their hearts in helping others, that would include most of humanity, including those involved in both secular and non-secular institutions. This would include almost everybody from Boy Scouts to Planned Parenthood, adherents of Islam to members of Jim Jones' The Peoples Temple, and everything in between- who have all been involved in excellent good works programs and driven by the sincere belief in helping our world and helping those around them who are in need.
People who choose the "legit criteria" for who "legit Christians" are, or what "living properly" is, are doing simply that- choosing what they believe to be right and coming to a conclusion about it.
And, very often those criteria is very different from others' criteria.
Everyone likes to think they've come to the right conclusions.
When their conclusions are challenged, their egos can take it as a personal attack.
(Especially for those who have a need to define "legit criteria" most specifically. Such people lean more toward a psychology of separateness/exclusion than one of inclusion.)
So, when Dave Pack says, "One of the ways you know a false minister is look at who follows him. Now, Christ’s sheep know His voice, and they don’t follow strangers.", he's being very clever!
In other words, he's stroking egos.
He's manipulating.
He's trying to get members to double-down on their belief in what he and his misters preach.
He's saying (in not so many words) that if your conclusions remain the same as what he and his ministers preach, that YOU can pat yourself on the back because YOU have chosen wisely and have become part of the CHOSEN FEW in God's ONE and ONLY TRUE CHURCH.
After reading some of what Pack has written, I find something rather "Trumpian" in his style of self-aggrandizement, demonizing detractors, and just making up crazy shit to enhance his self-perceived fantabulousness.
Dave Martin:
ReplyDeleteThat song would be great to parody, but Im afraid that too few people on the forum are familiar with the tune.
Although I could imagine the line... "Its a strange strange world you live in ...Mr. Pack" LOL!
Rod was medical, studied his prophetical
ReplyDeleteScience in the home
Late nights all alone with a Bible ohh oh oh oh
David Pack, we see, majoring in quackery
Calls him on the phone
Can I take you out from the splinters, Rod, odd, odd odd?
But as he's getting ready to go
A knock comes on the door
Bang, bang, Davey's silver hammer
Came down upon his head
Bang, bang, Davey's silver hammer
Made sure that he was dead
Back in charge again Davey's livin' large again
Gerald gets annoyed
Wishing to avoid an unpleasant scene
He tells Dave to stay when the class has gone away
So he waits behind
Writing 50 times "I must not be so" oh oh oh
But when he turns his back on that prophet
He creeps up from behind
Bang, bang, Davey's silver hammer
Came down upon his head
Bang, bang, Davey's silver hammer
Made sure that he was dead
Precinct 31 said, "We caught a dirty one"
Davey stands alone
Painting 30 reasons pictures ohh oh oh oh
Each member of his COE, screaming from the gallery
Say he must go free (Davey must go free)
The judge does not agree and he tells them so oh oh oh
But as the words are leaving his lips
A noise comes from behind
Bang, bang, Davey's silver hammer
Came down upon his head
Bang, Bang, Davey's silver hammer
Made sure that he was dead
Wow wow wow oh!
Silver Jonestown man...
Silver hammer Max
ReplyDelete“When Dave Pack Apostatized From The Mother Church He Took All The Thorns and Thistles With Him”
David Prick is a real thorn in the side. He keeps his followers on pins and needles. He is more prickly than a porcupine. Don't be surprised when he stabs you in the back.