"moral turpitude"
"act of baseness, vileness, or depravity in the private and social duties which a man owes to his fellowmen, or to society in general, contrary to the accepted and customary rule of right and duty between man and man."[3]
The following came from a confidential Living Church of God source. I hesitated to post this since it was "old" news, but after reading the letter below you will quickly see that some the leadership of the Living Church of God is debased in so many areas. The shocking thing is, knowing as you read this, that these are ministers saying and doing these things. Men who SHOULD know better and SHOULD be setting the example. and who SHOULD NOT be lying.
I was somewhat hesitant to share this letter publicly because these people have been through so much and it's kind of old news but I decided ultimately that shinning a light on the evil behavior occurring in LCG was more important. LCG members need to know what kind of people they are supporting with their tithe money and blind obedience. If reading about LCG ministerial abuses helps just one person find the courage to stand up for what's right, then my goal will have been achieved. Rod McNair and men like him have gotten away with bullying, lying and abusing church members without accountability for far too long. I've already begun to read through McNair's deposition and it is glaringly obvious that he attempted to crush these people without cause.
The ministry of the church has never been trained in ethics. Ethics were not taught in the colleges of the past nor is ethics a part of the culture of the "universities" present in a few splinter groups. Men who have been taught how to make ethical decisions will make moral decisions based upon what is right and what is wrong. Even with the gray areas in life, good moral and ethical training will lead a leader to make the right decision in most cases.
This has not been the case in the Living Church of God since its inception. From the corrupt actions that led to the founding of the Global Church of God to the highly immoral activities when Living split off of it, the LCG has been in an ethical crisis mode ever since. Men of good moral character have been routinely throttled and eventually driven out.
What follows is a letter regarding the Scarborough lawsuit and their interaction with certain Living Church of God leadership.
Living Church of God
Council of Elders
2301 Crown Center Drive
Charlotte, NC28227
December 9, 2016
Dear Gentlemen,
Patrick and I recently learned that writing to the COE was an option for getting our case heard and so we are writing you today in hopes that the enclosed information will facilitate an enlightening of the facts surrounding the events that led to our marking and the subsequent filing of our lawsuit. Even if you collectively decide to continue to ignore us and continue to refuse to meet with us to work through our problems, as true Christians are commanded, we feel it’s important for you to see actual evidence regarding the facts. Not opinions. Not rumors. No spin. Just facts.
After great amounts of energy, time, prayer and expense we ultimately discovered that Rod McNair and Bob League marked us for 3 trivial events (this was confirmed in the depositions which were given under oath/affirmation): 1. we had a Greek-themed party in 2009 and were asked to take the pictures off of Facebook because Mr. McNair and Mr. League felt they made the church look bad and we declined because NOTHING inappropriate happened at that party (ministers were present), 2. I sang the Andrew’s Sisters song ‘Rum & Coca Cola’ in 2011 upon request, with pre-authorization from Mr. McNair and Mr. League but was then asked to take the videos off of Facebook because they alleged that it made the church look bad and I had a “bad attitude” about this accusation and, 3. we had the Rothenbachers and the Colon’s over for a bbq on Labor Day 2014 and spoke negatively about the men/events that led up to their (Pete & Reynaldo) suspensions. After years of wondering why were disfellowshiped, these were the reasons you will see outlined in the attached depositions. The depositions will further reveal that we were marked because it was assumed that we provide Bob Thiel information that he posted on COGwriter.com that was unflattering to LCG. An accusation that we have been fully recused of at this point, yet we are still marked for it. An accusation for which I (Elizabeth) was never blamed for, but yet I was still marked for it. Further, it was revealed in the depositions that the information we were marked for on COGwriter WAS ACTUALLY ACCURATE AND TRUTHFUL information. So we were marked for TRUE information that we didn’t provide Bob Thiel which is difficult to fathom.
We were also accused of “causing church division” but there is not one person that can be pointed to when asked, “who did we divide” because we never attempted to divide anyone from LCG. We didn’t want to leave ourselves so why would we convince others to leave? It doesn’t even make sense that we would try to get others to leave and then fight so hard to stay ourselves. If every LCG member who has ever voiced criticism of a minister is guilty of causing church division and worthy of being kicked out of church, then a lot more people need to be kicked out. Further, Bob Thiel and Charles Bryce ACTUALLY DID CAUSE CHURCH DIVISION and yet they aren’t marked, but we are. It seems we were treated much more harshly than many others ever have been. It appeared in Mr. Meredith’s deposition that Rod McNair had given him the impression that there were actually members who left LCG because of use (100% untrue).The one thing that LCG leaders can not stand is to have anyone criticize them in any manner whatsoever. To do so is to place one's eternal salvation at risk, at least in the angry ministry's eyes. It is also interesting to note that many in LCG knew Bob Thiel was creating division in the LCG
In the months following our marking several LCG members were told by Rod McNair that we were “starting our own church”. This is an accusation for which Mr. McNair does not have one shred of evidence. He will try to somehow link it to a comment that I allegedly made to Catherine Ogwyn in 2011 but Charles Ogwyn himself supports my rendition of this event, not Mr. McNair’s (please read Mr. Ogwyn’s deposition and listen to the audio recording of one of his phone calls with Patrick). I NEVER asked Charles Ogwyn to leave LCG and start a church with me and Patrick. Perhaps Catherine Ogwyn had too much to drink that night and has created a false memory in her mind but it simply isn’t true. Furthermore, how do you mark someone in 2014 for a comment they allegedly made in 2011 for which you never talked to the accused about? That doesn’t seem the least bit logical or fair.
We were “counselled” two times. Once in 2011 and once the week we were disfellowshipped and marked. Mr Meredith testified that he had been told that we were counselled “over and over again and were at an impasse” before he agreed to Rod McNair’s suggestion to mark us. That simply is not true. I’m not sure if Mr. Meredith was lied to or if he just had his facts wrong but we met with Bob League and Rod McNair only twice over a 5 year time span. We were never warned or suspended. We had no idea that we were in any sort of trouble at all. In fact, when we left the meeting the week we were disfellowshipped, we were all hugging and talking about our plans for the upcoming Feast. We were completely blind-sided by the news that we were suddenly “enemies of God’s church”.Counseling in the Church of God has never ever been about "counselling." It has always been a lecture where the "guilty" party never had the right to respond to allegations and accusations. Even if one attempted to, the were branded as "in a bad attitude" and were in need of "correction." True counselling is always done with empathy. All training classes in counselling always include long discussions on empathy. Empathy is NOT something taught to the ministry nor do many of them actually know what it is.
Being marked and shunned from the Living Church of God has been the single most painful, horrible, traumatic experience of my entire life. It will leave its effect on me until the day I die.Marking and shunning in the Church fo God has always been a weapon to publicly humiliate the accused. It is never done in "love" or "compassion" no matter how much they say it is. It is always done in anger and revenge. Grace and mercy are never components in the equation.
I have written gut-wrentching letters over and over again, begging for forgiveness; begging to just sit down and talk through our problems (this letter marks the 45th letter I have written LCG). Making peace and talking things through is all we have ever LCG to talk to us before we ever dreamed of initiating a lawsuit but they all went unanswered (except Doug Winnail who did reply on several occasions). Our lawyer sent a letter (attached) further stating that we had NO DESIRE to litigate but just wanted the opportunity to talk things out as Christians but again, no reply. The lawsuit would have never happened if Rod McNair and Mr. Meredith would have made ANY effort to pastor us, lead us or talk to us. Instead they “cast us to Satan”.
Thankfully, we have been chosen by the Almighty. He is our Father and we are His. No man has the power to change that. No man is the gatekeeper to His Kingdom. We live our lives to the best of our ability in hopes of finishing the race and receiving that crown. Do you really think God is going to put people who cannot make peace in such a small matter in positions of rulership over cities? I don’t think so! Let’s take this opportunity to show Him that we want to obey His word! Once again, we beg you to meet with us and work toward reconciliation.
Can the Great Creator, who gives you life and breath, trust you to obey His word? Do you want to do what’s right in the sight of God no matter what? Or dig in your heals in pride? I can point to a dozen scriptures that support our desire to make peace, swallow pride, forgive and walk as brothers and not one that says to ignore people and stay as stiff-necked as possible. We need to do what is pleasing to God and make peace.
We have only sent this letter and it’s attachments to LCG COE. We weren’t 100% sure who is currently sitting on the COE so we made our best guess.
We are well liked and active members of our new church (just like we were in LCG) and it is hard for them to imagine why we have been treated as we have by LCG. We are the same people we have always been. We are dedicated to God’s way of life and enjoy serving God’s people. Please understand that it makes LCG look bad when people in other branches of the COG
We will continue to pray that you men will hear our plea and reach out to us to work toward peace. You know how to get in touch with us. We would love to hear from you.
Sincerely,
Patrick & Elizabeth Scarborough
SUGGESTED POINTS TO NOTE WITHIN THE DEPOSITIONS
· Meredith depo pg 17 line 16 - Q. Can the Council of Elders, if they voted to un-mark somebody overturn your decision? A. Yes.
· Meredith depo pg 18 – Meredith states that people have started to leave LCG because of us which simply isn’t true. A. [they were] continually making put down remarks and divisive remarks around the congregation and more and more people were being upset and some were starting to leave.
RCM is unable to state a single specific thing we said to warrant being marked.
· Meredith depo Pg 23 line 22 Q.· ·Again, I asked you this earlier. Can you give me a specific example of something they did to deserve or warrant marking, a specific instance? A.· ·No.
RCM states that McNair had (lied to him) told him that he and Mr. League and been working with us for months to no avail (we met once the week we were marked and once in 2011)
· Meredith depo pg 33 line 11 A. We warned them for months to stop that type of atmosphere they had been creating against the church, divisive atmosphere at some of their get-togethers and so on.
· Meredith depo pg 53 line 15 Q.How do you help someone change but not allowing your ministers to counsel with them? A.· ·Our ministers counseled with them over and over for quite a number of months, but they didn't change. They would pretend to change and not change.
The above statement by Rod Meredith is 100% untrue
Starting on pg 46 it is detailed how far from the Ministerial Handbook Rod McNair and Bob League strayed in handling this case. McNair also facilitated the Release of Claims (authored by Dexter Wakefield asking us to waive our legal rights in this matter) which RCM states he knew nothing about.
· Meredith depo pg 73 line 10 THE WITNESS:· Well, I told you again and again, we heard many dozens of reports that they were spreading negative things about the church, and they were causing division and people would spend time with them and leave.
Mr. Meredith states that “dozens” of people reported this. I contend that your only “witnesses” were the Rothenbachers and the Colons who were guilty of far worse than Patrick and I ever were. The assertion that there were “dozens” of witnesses is a flat out lie.
· Meredith depo Pg 87 line 23 Q.You stated earlier that you had members of the church leaving the church because of Patrick and Elizabeth Scarborough.· Do you know who any of those members are? A. No.
Mr. McNair’s depo is filled with just as many untruths.
McNair depo pg 20 line 23 (regarding the Rum & Coca Cola incident) A. Elizabeth had on social media expressed her displeasure with the ministry's actions, expressed by name, Mr. League, and that she would not comply with the actions with his decision
McNair depo pg23 line 4 (states I spoke of League online about the toga party and then again about rum and coke) A. she online was expressing talk about people who have perverted minds, and mentioned Mr. League by name
This is 100% untrue. While it is true that I wrote Mr. League a personal letter voicing my frustration over the situation I absolutely never made any Facebook post naming Mr. League. There is no way Mr. McNair can prove this lie because there is no post to produce as evidence. He is confusing a personal, private letter with public Facebook posts. Even if it were true (and it’s not) why wait 3 years to disfellowship and mark me for it?
The following is Rod McNair’s summarization of why he decided to ruin our lives and reputations and cast us out of a church we loved and take away all of our friends…
McNair depo pg 23 line 13 Q.· ·Okay.· So I have the Labor Day weekend event, the Charles Ogwyn event, the toga party and the Rum And Coke. Do you have any other reasons why they sowed discord? A. That was what I was aware of.
Mr. McNair acknowledges that we wouldn’t be marked were it not for the post of COGwriter which we have now been cleared of.
McNair depo pg 32 line 20 Q. Would you agree with me then if I said that had it not been for Bob Thiel's website post, that Mr. Scarborough and Mrs. Scarborough may not have been marked? A. Absolutely, that may be a very real possibility
Yet upon learning that we were not responsible for the post and that the information on the post was actually accurate, Mr. McNair made no attempt to clear us of the charge, remove the marking or reconcile for months and months prior to us filing the lawsuit.
When Mr. McNair was questioned about following the procedures outlined in the Ministerial Handbook (giving the benefit of the doubt with brethren) he answers as follows…
McNair depo pg 69 line 1 Q. (a minister is supposed to err) on the side of assuming the best. Did I read that correctly? A.· ·Yes. Q. This talks about how members might not realize the problem they are causing, is that correct? A.· ·Correct. Q.· ·You never gave the Scarboroughs a warning before their disfellowshipment, isn't that true? A.· ·Correct. Q.· ·And when confronted with the information about Bob Thiel's website, would you agree that the church administration assumed that Patrick was the one responsible without any hard proof? THE WITNESS:· Direct proof, yes, yes.
Both Mr. Meredith and Mr. McNair repeatedly stated that they couldn’t trust anything Patrick said in his own defense because he (Patrick) is a liar. Yet when question, neither Mr. McNair nor Mr. Meredith were able to vocalize A SINGLE example of Patrick lying.
McNair depo pg 76 line 4 Q.· ·So you have an opinion that Mr. Scarborough was dishonest when he worked for the church, but you can't even remember one instance of why you think that way? A.· ·I don't have -- right.· I don't have that information readily available. Q.· ·So you have an opinion that Mr. Scarborough was dishonest when he worked for the church, but you can't even remember one instance of why you think that way? A.· ·I don't have -- right.· I don't have that information readily available.
Patrick was a good employee and both Mr. Davis and Dr. Winnail wrote him glowing letters of recommendations after his employ with LCG. Why would they do such a thing if Patrick were a liar? This is further evidence that this entire incident was a result of a personal vendetta and character assassination.
McNair depo pg 81 line 7 Q.· ·Just a few months before the Scarboroughs disfellowshipment and marking, there was a party at their house, right, a 4th of July party? A.· ·Maybe, I don't know. Q.· ·Were you present? A.· ·Huh-uh -- maybe I was.· I didn't recall, but, yes, I think I was. Q.· ·And no, nothing out of the ordinary or wrong happened at that party, right? A.· ·Correct. Q.· ·A lot of the church administration was there, right? A.· ·There were others, yes. Q.· ·I guess my question is, how do you go from everyone hanging out at their house having a good time to two months later them being kicked out of the church?
LCG’s lawyer objects to the question and Mr. McNair never answers but we still think its odd that Mr. McNair and other leading LCG (Mr. Ames, Jim Meredith and Wyatt Ciesielka to name a few) were at our home as our brothers in July and we were marked as enemies in Sept for reasons that were either entirely fabricated or occurred in 2009 and 2011 (outside of the bbq with the Rothenbachers and Colons who were not punished for the exact same offense we committed – speaking negatively).
Our lawyer goes on to confirm that the ONLY two witnesses against us (Dawn Rothenbacher and Jennifer Colon) suspiciously gave their reports to Mr. McNair and Mr. League and then amaziningly their husband’s suspensions were shortened from 6 weeks to 3 weeks. As a side note, Patrick and I were NEVER involved in any of the private Bible studies and heresies that the Colon’s and Rothenbachers were involved in yet we were cast out and they remained unscathed. This reeks of corruption and favoritism.
McNair depo pg 98 line 6 Q.· ·So just the people whose wives talked to you about the Scarboroughs had their suspensions shortened? A.· ·Right, right.
I attached one of the heartfelt letters I wrote Mr. McNair begging to meet with him and repenting for my mistakes. Please read it. When Mr. McNair is questioned about why he/LCG has refused to counsel us or answer our letters for nearly 2 years he says…
McNair depo pg 110 line 7 Q.You keep saying that you want them to repent in order to come back to the church, right? A.· ·Right. Q.· ·Do you know that Elizabeth Scarborough has written over 40 emails and letters trying to repent and reconcile with you? A.· ·Right, yes.
I wonder how God feels about a minister who has a member pouring out her heart, begging for forgiveness and peace, yet that minister repeatedly and continually ignores her. Is that what a shepherd does?
In summary, the evidence shows that we didn’t give any info to Bob Thiel. We never tried to start our own church and we never attempted to divide LCG members from LCG. We were guilty of having a bad attitude when we were falsely accused of impropriety in 2009 and 2011 and I was guilty of being involve in a negative conversation with Dawn and Jennifer on Labor Day 2014. You will read in the depositions that both Dawn and Reynaldo testified that Patrick had no part in the negativity that night and that he, in fact, made several attempts to defend LCG ministry and get people to stop talking about it.
We pray you will weigh the evidence, see that we are not the evil people that Rod McNair would have you to believe we are, and meet with us to work toward reconciliation. Please ask yourself if we were handled fairly and justly. It’s not too late to make this right. We have all fallen short. Let’s put pride aside and correct the situation!
Rod McNair is a two-faced, piece of shit bastard. His sermons were always made for mind-numbing boredom. If he were to tell me to take something off of my Facebook wall, I'd break his jaw!
ReplyDeleteWow! It is always shocking and sad when a "spiritual guide" provokes the Christian frame of mind to become overwhelmed to this extent. Should be yet another red flag, people! Better to vote with your feet!
DeleteBB
I've heard from others that ministers troll their Facebook accounts. Talk about an invasion of privacy.
DeleteWhich is yet another good reason to mark everything "friends only".
DeleteRod McNair learned one thing well, how to bamboozle his Uncle Rod Meredith. Unfortunately, Rod McNair has character much more like his Uncle Dave Pack.
ReplyDeleteIf Rod McNair were not somebody's nephew, he would be selling used cars or washing windows. You see, he's not just a liar. He is a stupid and gullible liar. His lies have driven innocent people out of the Charlotte congregation while giving favored status to immoral and deceitful people who have learned how to kiss McNair's buttocks.
Watch to see how Gerald Weston handles Rod McNair. There are several younger ministers at LCG HQ who must make a public show of cooperation and unity but who in private tear each other down, since they know there isn't room for all of them to advance in the hierarchy as high as they would like. Will McNair be the first of these men to be ordained as an Evangelist? Or will that honor go to Wile E. Ciesielka? If Weston wonders why more people aren't moving from co-worker status to member status, he should probably look at the fruits of his HQ ministers. People who are already committed to LCG have no choice but to put up with the carnal behavior, but people who are not yet members can see it for what it is and go elsewhere.
Someone Please Tell Rod McNair He Is NOT A Christian!
ReplyDeleteDid the Scarboroughs move on to COGWA or some other group? Or are they still petitioning to get back into LCG?
ReplyDeleteAnd what were those COGaWA figures, anyway? 3/4 of the strictest hardliner Herbie loyalist ministers left UCG to start it up, but only 1/4 of the UCG members followed them?
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McNair depo pg 110 line 7 Q.You keep saying that you want them to repent in order to come back to the church, right? A.· ·Right. Q.· ·Do you know that Elizabeth Scarborough has written over 40 emails and letters trying to repent and reconcile with you? A.· ·Right, yes.
ReplyDeleteSeriously? What does it take asshat?!
The comments here that McNair is not a Christian are spot on. Never have I encountered a more despicable man in the COG than him. He is only in a position because of who he was related to. He certainly has no qualifications or understanding to be interfering in members lives like he does. Nepotism is the name of the game in the LCG. It is revolting. If you want to talk about a man with no empathy, he is the shining example. He is right up there next to Bob Thiel. Both of these guys have no idea what empathy means.
ReplyDeleteThe Scarborough's are also right that Thiel was causing division in the LCG. Thiel thought he could take scores of members with him when he self-ordained himself and started his won group. The joke was on him though. No one followed him.
Thiel thought he could take scores of members with him when he self-ordained himself and started his won group. The joke was on him though. No one followed him.
ReplyDeleteThe big joke is that Thiel had such a high opinion of his prospects because Rod Meredith flattered him so much. Let us remember that Rod McNair was similarly flattered by Meredith, who went so far as to ask McNair to "check up" on Doug Winnail. Instead of exhorting McNair to be Winnail's loyal subordinate, Meredith played to McNair's ego and encouraged him to rat out Winnail and others for insufficient loyalty.
It is so sad to see young people grow up in LCG, never knowing what it is like to be in a genuinely loving environment. WCG/LCG is all they have ever known, so they assume that the Gestapo culture is normal, or they feel guilty for leading a "double life" when their conscience compels them to do other than what LCG demands. Elizabeth Scarborough did not grow up in WCG like her husband Patrick did, so she has some idea of what normal loving relationships look like. She never fell victim to the same deep programming that most in WCG/LCG receive. That's why it is so baffling to me that she still seems to want to be accepted by LCG. I guess she must genuinely love some of her old brainwashed friends. I can imagine how terrified McNair must be, though, that Elizabeth's genuine expressions of friendship would make the conditional LCG "love" seem hollow by comparison, so she must be kept away at all costs.
The "Moral Turpitude" is certainly a question worth asking.
ReplyDeleteHowever in Bob Thiel's case it is "MORAL TWERPITUDE" !!!
I miss good ol' Spanky already...
ReplyDeleteIt looks like folks in N Korea are grieving too (and they know how it's done).
https://youtu.be/TTbdQ6PkN8A?t=18
Why would anyone want to return to the LCG Gulag? Mr. & Mrs. Scarborough, why don't you thank God for bringing you out of that false religion business cult that pretends to be a Church? These LCG clowns did you a favor.
ReplyDeleteRichard
The Scarboroughs should thank their lucky stars they don't have to fellowship with that false church. Rod McNair is the epitome of evil.
ReplyDeleteIt looks like Mrs. Scarborough sent this to LCG COE over 6 months ago. There has been no reconciliation so it appears that the Counsel of Elders told them to piss off. How very Christian of them. Sure it's easy to lay the lions share of blame on Mr. McNair, but it appears that the COE had an opprtunity to make things right. Obviously they cared more about a pay check and ass kissing than obeying our Lord's instructions on matters such as this.
ReplyDeleteDid anyone really expect more from this group of men?
McNair depo pg 81 line 7 Q.· ·Just a few months before the Scarboroughs disfellowshipment and marking, there was a party at their house, right, a 4th of July party? A.· ·Maybe, I don't know. Q.· ·Were you present? A.· ·Huh-uh -- maybe I was.· I didn't recall, but, yes, I think I was. Q.· ·And no, nothing out of the ordinary or wrong happened at that party, right? A.· ·Correct. Q.· ·A lot of the church administration was there, right? A.· ·There were others, yes. Q.· ·I guess my question is, how do you go from everyone hanging out at their house having a good time to two months later them being kicked out of the church?
ReplyDeleteMy comment: With friends like this, who needs enemies?
Can anyone, especially the readers who attend with LCG, imagine Jesus Christ acting like these LCG ministers???
ReplyDeleteI'm Elizabeth's friend on Facebook and I can tell how much this ordeal has effected her. I hope ALL the totally un-Christian jerks who have shunned them on the lying words of Rod McNair and Rod Meredith read this and feel deeply ASHAMED.
ReplyDeleteIn your blind obedience to LCG ministry you have shown you DISOBEDIENCE to God the Father.
How can you let a man tell you not to be friends with someone you know to be good?
Being a blind, spineless sheep will get you nowhere!
Oh, I know, you're praying about the situation and know that God will sort it out in the end, right? Not acceptable! By going along with this type of abuse you are complicit!
You saw something bad happen to good people and you became a part of it when you engaged in the group shunning. Be assured, you will ultimately reap what you have sown.
The sad thing is that LCG tithe sheep are so brainwashed that they will just make excuses and keep supporting this corrupt organization
ReplyDelete45 letters weren't enough. It takes 47. Duh!
ReplyDelete"Charles Ogwyn himself supports my rendition of this event, not Mr. McNair’s (please read Mr. Ogwyn’s deposition and listen to the audio recording of one of his phone calls with Patrick)"
ReplyDeleteRecorded phone calls? I wonder if Charles knows about this.
Dawn Rothenbacher and Jennifer Colon are pieces of shit for what they did. Hopefully they know it.
ReplyDeleteConnie wrote:
ReplyDeleteThe "Moral Turpitude" is certainly a question worth asking.
However in Bob Thiel's case it is "MORAL TWERPITUDE" !!!
Absolutely hilarious! I snorted beer out my nose when I read this. Twerpitude Thiel. A new name we can add to the list.
I found this post hard to read since it brought back memories of minister mis treatment. I've been verbally attacked by ministers without explanation. They wanted to protect their snitches, so they attacked without explanation. How constructive is that? It's just a childish vindictive lashing out at people.
ReplyDeleteOne moral of this story is not to over invest in human relationships. God and nature can't rob you, so if you exercise or read a book, you keep all the benefits. People by contrast, can rob you blind. Personal interests and hobbles are far more productive than friendships. The exploitative ministers teach the opposite.
Why in God's name would anyone subject themselves to the bull shit that these Armstrong cults do to innocent people? The Scarboroughs don't need LCG!!! If they want to continue to be brainwashed & policed then there are other Armstrong cults out there.
ReplyDeleteI heard that Gerald Weston was going to invite the entire Scarborough family back to LCG. The entire family meaning - the 70 or so in Kansas City and the 4 that live in Charlotte.
ReplyDeleteWord on the street is that he was just waiting for RCM to die before he did it.
I doubted it because it would take courage, compassion and a spirit of reconciliation on the part of LCG ministry and as we can all plainly see... that is completely absent.
You know what puzzles me most? That people would beg and plead to be reinstated into a church that treated them so badly and was so obviously run by control freaks.
ReplyDeleteWhen people tried similar tactics with me at an independent congregation, I just thumbed my nose at them and left. Best decision I could have made. Freed me up to read and study and learn a lot more than I ever would have under the COG system.
People who are deeply indoctrinated in this system are in a state of mind in which their belief in the corporate group as the "one true", and their commitment to its doctrinal approach overwhelm their personal feelings and sense of fairness as to how they as individuals are treated by its representatives. For the most part, this is in keeping with the ascetic's creed. If you add the power of the "buddy" system (long term friends), and in this case a large family who are members, it is easy to appreciate how difficult it is to break free from all of the draconian shackles in place.
DeleteThe lesson in life is to be very careful with what you allow to "own" you. And the problem is that when you first enter such a system, while in your early impressionable and vulnerable state, they convince you that it is unGodly, or unChristlike not to form deep bonds with your new group. They know that once these bonds are forged, and your bonds with outsiders and family have been minimized or broken, basically they have you for life. At that point, they can do just about anything they wish, you having assumed that they will be ethical, humane, and always looking out for your best interests. It is a very flawed social or spiritual contract. The doctrines uniformly produce savage dictators as their leaders. The system automatically elliminates those who would be kinder or gentler guides.
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"No man is the gatekeeper to His Kingdom."
ReplyDeletethat belief is probably what got them put out...to the Scarboroughs I say BRAVO!
The letter mentioned McNair's deposition and an attachment.
ReplyDeleteDo we have a link to these?
RED ALERT!!!
ReplyDeleteCode red at LCG headquarters!!!
The sky is falling and the powers that be are trying to figure out damage control. There are quite a few pieces of information that were attached to this letter originally and LCG does not want them released because it doesn't exactly show them in a favorable light.
Hearsay is easy for them to spin but black and white is a little more challenging!
7.42 AM
ReplyDeleteRegarding your 'control freak' comment, I got the impression while attending services, that the ministers left some people alone. This parallels the bully in the school yard picking victims based on risk-reward. Perhaps the Scarboroughs were basically left alone by the ministers.
This parallels the bully in the school yard picking victims based on risk-reward. Perhaps the Scarboroughs were basically left alone by the ministers.
ReplyDeletePatrick Scarborough's first wife died in tragic circumstances and he received an eight-digit settlement from the company whose negligence caused her death. This got Rod Meredith's attention, and he brought Patrick and Elizabeth to Charlotte with the plan that Patrick would break his trust fund and give lots of money to LCG. As soon as it became clear that the lawyers wouldn't let that happen, Meredith lost interest in Patrick and looked for ways to push him aside without offending his dozens of relatives who were also in LCG. I'm sure Patrick and Elizabeth were shocked when they began to be treated the way ordinary members have always been treated in WCG/LCG.
I am so thankful we finally woke up and left LCG last year. Our family has never had so much peace in years. No more petty backbiting, backstabbing and abuse from ministers and members. More than half of the current men in ministerial positions do NOT belong there. It got tiring being treated like dirt by most of the ministry, including those from HQ. They act like we are dumb ignorant sheep all the time and they are the only ones who know right from wrong. It should be apparent to members now that the leadership does not know right from wrong. More need to walk our the door or to STOP sending them money.
ReplyDeleteIt's nauseating to read Doug Winnail's most recent weekly update and then read this story.
ReplyDeleteLCG ministry can write about and talk about "love" and bearing the fruits of the spirit but their ACTIONS prove otherwise.
LCG is corrupt and ruled by evil men. Actions speak louder than words people.
WEEKLY UPDATE:
What the World Needs Now! The Bible reveals that “in the last days perilous times will come” because people will be selfish, materialistic, proud, unthankful, unloving and brutal (2 Timothy 3:1-5). The world we see around us today is angry and increasingly violent, which only engenders more suffering and hurt. What the world needs now—as a song title goes—is love! Love is an unselfish, outgoing concern for others. Real love does not envy or hate, but is patient, forgiving, kind and caring (see 1 Corinthians 13). This kind of love is one of the fruits of God’s Holy Spirit that promotes peace of mind and peace between human beings (Galatians 5:22-23). Christians today who learn how to exercise this kind of Godly love will be used by God in the coming Kingdom of God to show others the benefits that come from learning how to be peacemakers (Matthew 5:9). The Scriptures remind us that “the whole creation” is anxiously awaiting the arrival of the sons and daughters of God, “who have the firstfruits of the Spirit” (Romans 8:19-24; 2 Corinthians 6:18). They will rule with Jesus Christ and show the world how loving our neighbor as ourselves will finally bring real peace to this troubled world (Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:39; Isaiah 9:6-7).
Have a profitable Sabbath,
Douglas S. Winnail
The comments here show the narrow minded thinking of people that do not understand the rules of being a member of God's church. The ministry has every right to disfellowship members who show insubordination towards the church and potentially causing disagreement among the flock. I will not apologize for doing my job.
ReplyDeleteIt's not your fault, Rod. Your church's doctrines made you what you are today. These same doctrines have been tried over and over and over by various people in numerous splinters. Every time, they produce the same type of leader as you. However, now that I've pointed this out to you, it is your responsibility to do something about it and change so that you don't continue to hurt people!
DeleteBB
Thats a troll.
DeleteCab someone please provide the link to access the complete deposition of this lawsuit? I would like to really see what is said under oath .. thank you very much!!!
ReplyDeleteNot a bad idea, 8:11! When members of the Weinland cult read the transcript of Ron's tax evasion trial, many of them were convinced to leave. It made the evidence they had been denying for attitude sake just as plain as the nose on their faces. I understand that they had been forbidden to read it, but somehow a number of them mustered up the moxie to override their programming, and to investigate for themselves.
DeleteIf they were capable of waking up, so should LCG members be with the same patented Armstrongite programming.
BB
5.31 PM
ReplyDeleteThe right of free association does give groups the right to shun individuals that harm that group. But individuals also have a right to be treated justly. If a individual has invested substantial time, effort and money in a group, it would be fraud to shun that person without due process or just cause.
That's what the court case was all about.
5.31 PM
ReplyDeleteThere was your Hitler comment, now this.
I cannot express how valuable this blog is to many LCG members. We see the corruption of many in the ministry and the damage they are doing and then watch it get covered up, week after week. The leadership of the church, the Council fo Elders and many of the ministers feel they are above the law and are not accountable to us in any thing. They use "government" as a tool to keep us all in line like dumb sheep waiting to be slaughtered. To dare to question the leaders is to question God himself, or so I was told by my minister. I hope headquarters is suffering great humiliation in what has been reported here. Will they humble themselves and repent before the entire church? Real Christians would. Will we see the church call a fast specifically for the ministry, Council fo Elders, Evangelists and headquarters staff? They should set the example instead of telling church members to fast for their unChristian behavior. If Mr. Weston really was the leader of the church now he would do that, but he won't.
ReplyDeleteFalse ministers will never do these 3 things...admit they are wrong, apologize when they are and admit they don't have all the answers. In my nearly 50 years around and in the COG, I've yet to meet one who meet all 3 of these criteria.
ReplyDeleteGerald Weston certainly isn't one, as are most I know of in LCG. Another one is Warren Zehrung...
Was Rod Meredith lying in his deposition, or did Meredith accidentally reveal that Rod McNair had lied to him?
ReplyDeleteEither way, we now have conclusive proof of major commandment-breaking at the highest levels at LCG HQ.
If Weston keeps Rod McNair around, this will be evidence that he believes Rod Meredith was the liar. But this would in turn undermine Weston's leadership, if the man on whom his authority rests has been determined a liar.
If Weston strips Rod McNair of his eldership and sends him away, he will be confirming that Rod McNair was the one who lied. Of course, we know that Rod McNair's membership files have dirt on not just ordinary members but also ministers. Would Weston be willing to risk a departing Rod McNair "spilling the beans" about the sins of other top LCG leaders and their families?
This puts Weston in a bind. He can't afford to keep Rod McNair around, but can't afford to get rid of him.
I cannot express how valuable this blog is to many LCG members.
ReplyDeleteNot just to current members, but also to potential future members. In the old days, people would watch The World Tomorrow and assume that the church behind it was all sweetness and light. If you saw problems in your local congregation, you could put your trust in distant Headquarters.
Today, thanks to the Internet, people who are thinking about joining LCG (or other similar groups) have the Internet, so they can know what to expect before they join. Many will start off assuming that the stories online are false, because so many are so outrageous. However, once they start to see the bad character and the abuses for themselves, they will find it easier to trust their God-given discernment and flee from the evildoers.
Weston wrote in his latest co-worker letter that he doesn't understand why more co-workers don't get fully involved in his church. If he were honest with himself, and if he read his Bible, he would realize that God's sheep hear His voice and go where they hear Him. If they don't hear Him in LCG, or if in LCG the wolves' howling drowns out the voice of the shepherd, they'll go elsewhere. Of course, in typical WCG/LCG fashion, Weston blames the co-workers for not becoming more involved.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteI heard that Gerald Weston was going to invite the entire Scarborough family back to LCG. The entire family meaning - the 70 or so in Kansas City and the 4 that live in Charlotte. '
That would be an interesting change of heart for GW. I replaced him in SC and immediately had word get out to those bounced for petty problems , by GW, to give "the new minister a call" if you wanted to return. I brought back many fine folk who simply had problems and habits that one would need a community to work thru them with for support, kindness, compassion and love. GW's deacons and elders , who were very loyal to him, gave me nothing but trouble and back stabbing ultimately such as I had never experienced in any church before going there. I am sure they were reporting to him who I was inviting back and they resented it evidently.
Gerald may bring these folk back because he has learned something along the way or perhaps just for damage control, who knows. But it's ironic to me he would do this .
Gerald may bring these folk back because he has learned something along the way or perhaps just for damage control, who knows. But it's ironic to me he would do this .
ReplyDeleteDon't expect it to happen. The Scarboroughs know firsthand about the lies told by Mr. Meredith and Mr. McNair. They have seen members they thought of as friends turn on them. One minister's wife (who attended the toga party and sang the awful song that so offended Mr. McNair) backstabbed Patrick and Elizabeth, as did several other friends. The Kansas City Scarboroughs know of several promises made by Mr. Meredith and then reneged upon. If the Scarboroughs came back and talked honestly when asked about their situation, it would provoke a crisis. The ministers involved would need to apologize publicly or put the Scarboroughs right back out of the church. Since there's no chance of public ministerial apology, don't expect the Scarboroughs to return to LCG. From what I understand, some are now attending with COGWA and have seen for themselves that you can have most of the harshness of ACOG theology without the harshness of lying, cruel, nepotistic ministerial overlording of the brethren. Why bother with LCG?
12.15 PM
ReplyDeleteOf course Weston can't understand why co workers won't join his church. He expects relationships on his selfish terms, and if people refuse, the problem is theirs and not his. Ministers live in ivory tower, so the real world and how it works is foreign to them.
I would so love for these ministers to get a real job, and have to deal with real people who fight back, and speak their minds. And no outrageous perks.
And these ministers who live in a fairyland called churchworld, think they will get high positions in Gods kingdom. Ha ha ha ha.
To Rod McNair. We see that you have made a comment on this blog,..... your reputation follows you, even from the early days that you were the REgional Dir of the Phillipines, when Daddy came over to save you!!!! We heard from far and wide how the Phillipino's did not take to you at all, well we know they may have their own problems!! But now you are in Charlotte and guess what "SAME THING" and an unbalanced attitude with regard to the old people's home incident, where you disfellowshipped a "member" for working there, you felt there were demons in the air, and lies to your uncle roddy about the Scarborough family to protect your own back. We have listened to your sermons and with regret has little Biblical content, maybe something is missing here Rod. Ahhh but I guess you are doing your job...... please feel free comment further.
ReplyDeleteWas Gerald Weston in contact with the RUSSIANS and establishing back channel links before he took over for RCM??
ReplyDeleteThe country needs to know!
Parallelism. The commie aggressors in the wacky world of Armstrongism would be the imperialists amongst the ACOG splinters. Via his Joshua and Haggai "prophecies" during the Elul of 2013, his prophecy of the imminent spontaneous human combustion of 3 ACOG leaders, and all the members beating feet to the RCG, the most virulent imperialist would appear to be Mr. David Pack.
DeleteWe know that Uncle Roddie had back channel links with UCG and the COGaWA, but if Uncle Roddie was the figurative Obama in this allegory, then Gerald Weston would be Trump, and Pack analogous to Putin.
Who even knows? Back when the splintering began, there was even speculation that all of the franchisees were in bed with one another, regularly communicating and complicit in a new model for the spreading of Armstrongism. Of course, they didn't consider the churches that GTA started to be valid splinters (he rebelled against HWA), nor did they consider Joe Tkach to be a splinter (he corrected the doctrines).
Somehow, we always get back to Gamaliel......
BB
The lawsuit would have never happened if Rod McNair and Mr. Meredith would have made ANY effort to pastor us, lead us or talk to us. Instead they “cast us to Satan”.
ReplyDeleteAnd there you have it kids!
In the months following our marking several LCG members were told by Rod McNair that we were “starting our own church”. This is an accusation for which Mr. McNair does not have one shred of evidence."
ReplyDeleteMcNair told this lie directly to me to my face several months after the Scarboroughs were put out. He also told others (the gossips) to ensure that this lie would spread like wildfire thereby justifying what he did.
If this was sent to the LCG counsel of elders 6 months ago, that means Gerald Weston got it and made the decision to do nothing instead of standing up for what was right.
ReplyDeleteThat makes me sad. I had high hopes that he wouldn't be "corrupt" like the others are but obviously he's more into going with the crowd of HQs bullies than follow the Word of God as it relates to peacemaking, love and forgiveness.
"Thankfully, we have been chosen by the Almighty. He is our Father and we are His. No man has the power to change that. No man is the gatekeeper to His Kingdom. We live our lives to the best of our ability in hopes of finishing the race and receiving that crown. Do you really think God is going to put people who cannot make peace in such a small matter in positions of rulership over cities?"
ReplyDeleteThe answer is a resounding "NO".
LCG is not the COG and many in LCG will not get those positions of power they dream of because of a total and complete lack of Christian character. You can not eat pork your entire life and keep Saturday Sabbath each week but if you don't keep the Greatest Commandment because of your obedience to a man... you lose.
As another poster commented above, Elizabeth having the gumption to openly state that men are not gatekeepers to the kingdom is likely in part what did her in. LCG preaches that they are to be followed and obeyed as if they are Christ Himself. They can't afford to keep people who don't fall in line with that viewpoint around! You can't get to the kingdom without LCG afterall (according to LCG).
As a side note, Patrick and I were NEVER involved in any of the private Bible studies and heresies that the Colon’s and Rothenbachers were involved in yet we were cast out and they remained unscathed. This reeks of corruption and favoritism.
ReplyDeleteMY COMMENT:
It's sad that Elizabeth thinks private Bible studies and the Book of Enoch are akin to "heresy"
Only in LCG-land are these things heresy. Maybe she's more brainwashed that we think.
"two witnesses against us (Dawn Rothenbacher and Jennifer Colon) suspiciously gave their reports to Mr. McNair and Mr. League and then amazingly their husband’s suspensions were shortened from 6 weeks to 3 weeks.
ReplyDeleteAMAZINGLY LOL
More like the Rothenbachers wrote a huge check and the Colons both have LCG ministers for fathers
I wonder how God feels about a minister who has a member pouring out her heart, begging for forgiveness and peace, yet that minister repeatedly and continually ignores her. Is that what a shepherd does?
ReplyDeleteUmmm No, that's not what a shepherd does. Just sayin.
@7:39AM:
ReplyDeleteIn the months following our marking several LCG members were told by Rod McNair that we were “starting our own church”. This is an accusation for which Mr. McNair does not have one shred of evidence."
McNair told this lie directly to me to my face several months after the Scarboroughs were put out. He also told others (the gossips) to ensure that this lie would spread like wildfire thereby justifying what he did.
McNair told me the same. It seems that he is a habitual liar. I also understand that McNair lied to Mr. Meredith about John Robinson. How many decisions have Meredith and Weston made on the basis of lies they have been told by lying underlings like McNair and Ciesielka?
If Pete Rothenbacher and Reynaldo Colon hadn't studied the Book of Enoch and hadn't had private Bible studies they wouldn't have been suspended. If they had never been suspended the Labor Day "event" wouldn't have occurred and/or Dawn Rothenbacher and Jennifer Colon would have had no incentive to throw Patrick and Elizabeth under the bus to get Pete and Reynaldo off the Rod McNair imposed suspension.
ReplyDeleteErgo we can blame all of this on the Book of Enoch and the Holy Bible. Both of which cause trouble in the LCG.
In my experiences with Gerald Weston he seemed to have a pretty good bullshit detector. I was really hoping that he would oust men like Rod McNair, Wyatt Ceiseilka, Jim Meredith and Dave Meredith once he was in power.
ReplyDeleteSadly, it looks like he lacks the courage to make these changes.
He praised McNair in the most recent weekly update and he continues to have McNair and Ceiseilka on the uber lame Facebook TW presentation live feed which would indicate that they aren't going anywhere anytime soon.
Many of us had hopes that Gerald Weston would clean up the corruption and get rid of the men who exemplify the opposite of fruits of the spirit.
Further evidence that LCG is not God's church.
Not surprised at LCG at this point. I'm posting this anonymously but I imagine some people lurking on here will know who I am once I post this. Back when LCG was first started in 1998, I let the cat out of the bag that my stepfather was molesting and psychologically abusing me and what did the illustrious LCG do? They marked my mother and me, a 17 year old girl after it was shown what he had done to me as well as later on threatened to kill me. The minister kicked him out very quickly but he wound up coming back into another organization and was soundly kicked out but after my husband and I fled for our safety.
ReplyDeleteSince this was posted on Banned I have asked 2 LCG ministers (at headquarters) about it.
ReplyDeleteThey claim it's all a lie and instructed me to stay away from anti-cog websites.
I pride myself on being able to tell when someone is being truthful and I looked these ministers directly in the eyes when I approached the topic. My BS detector was going off full steam.
As I write this, I am deeply disheartened. Not only that my ministers did this to these people, but that they feel okay bald-faced lying about it to the members. It's a scary thing. They are so invested in protecting the machine (lcg) that they are willing to break God's laws to do it.
How can we respect men like this?
Cut off shall liars be.
Anon 11:17 IDK who you are but I am sorry you went through such a horrible ordeal. Sending a prayer for your healing.
ReplyDeleteAre you in another ACOG now or did you break free completely?
I'm surprised from a strategic standpoint that LCG hasn't made peace with Patrick and Elizabeth just to make all this bad PR go away.
ReplyDeleteI'm in LCG and I can honestly say that members would view peace-making positively. It would show strength, not weakness. It would show obedience to God's instruction instead of works of the flesh.
As a chess player, it's the best move available to LCG. Maybe the powers that be are just not as intelligent as we give them credit for.
I have gotten to know the Scarborough's in their new church (COGWA) and I can't imagine why they were treated this way by LCG.
ReplyDeleteIt has definitely given me and others a poor impression of LCG.
@ 7:08 AM
ReplyDeleteAny minister who stayed with Rod Meredith for 20 years has seen so many lies told and justified that there's no way I would trust such a person to tell me the truth about a sensitive matter. They might as well rename their group the Lying Church of Gossips.
@ 7:08
ReplyDeleteSince this was posted on Banned I have asked 2 LCG ministers (at headquarters) about it.
They claim it's all a lie and instructed me to stay away from anti-cog websites.
LCG by its fruits has shown itself to be anti-God's Church. So, those ministers gave you good advice. Stay away from LCG websites. As others have said, LCG ministers will lie in order to protect their idol, the corporation. Don't be their victim.