A reader here asked the following question on a previous post. It is not the first time this question has ever been asked, nor will it be the last.
Hi all. This may be an odd question but do splinters like cogwa, ucg, pcg, lcg, do re me, consider themselves "sister" churches or something like that?? When something happens at a splinter...oh..sorry..sister church, it is refereed to as such. I don't get it. All seem to hold same beliefs(?) as far as Holy Days and even same publication style. I don't get it..I just don't get it.
Oh..and thank any readers who can shed some light...you know...the one we are not suppose to hide under a bushel like talents that never got developed because what's the use everything is ending..thing. What's the benefit in that folks?
The WandererMost of the COG's are hypocrites when they say they love their fellow brethren in other splinter groups. The only time you ever see them shaking hands, hugging, or smiling at each other is at a funeral. Then everyone sits there saying, "he/she died in the faith" while privately thinking, "his/her salvation may be at stake because they were not members of the true end time work."
Each and every group out there seems to think they and they alone are the rightful heirs to the "truth." Many of them claim to be practicing "first century Christianity" yet turn their backs on former brethren.
Far too many look back at the glory days of the Worldwide Church of God in the 50's and 60's where "love and community" supposedly reigned supreme. Never was a word mention in any magazine article, member letter or booklet that things were not the "Ozzie and Harriet" world as it has always been portrayed. Families were being broken up at that time, marriages ruined and lives lost.
The glaring problems of the church came to the forefront after Armstrong died and the splintering started. Some of the most vile and hate-filled things were said about church members that never went along with certain groups. The leaders and fellow ordained men were the instigators of that. It is the leadership of the hundreds and hundreds of COG's that have separated the brethren.
Just look at UCG and COGWA. One week they were all slapping each other on the back and the next week thousands left along with 3/4 of the ministry, with each side thinking they and they alone were right in yet another split.
Look at Gerald Flurry and his vile policy requiring PCG members to turned their backs on spouses, siblings, children, and friends who have left the church or had no desire to join up with Flurry and remained in a splinter group.
Dave Pack thinks he is going to unify the church with tens of thousands jumping ship to join his most superfantabulous work ever.
Many of them actually think the Church will soon be unified when everyone flees to Petra. Can you imagine the hell on earth Petra will be when all of the self-appointed splinter group leaders arrive and start fighting over who is in charge! If these members who do show up there do the right thing, they would throw every single splinter group leader out of the place!
Since all of these men claim to be Christian, then why do they act so spiteful with each other?
All of them short-shift Jesus to the back burner and place the emphasis on the law and preaching about "God's kingdom" whatever that is since it has hundreds of different meanings according to each of them. Love, grace, mercy, and justification are not found in the law. The law leads to death and offers no salvation:
Or, another take in the vernacular:Romans 4:15-16New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
15 For the law brings wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there violation.16 For this reason it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants, not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham (for he is the father of all of us,
Romans 4:15-16The Message (MSG)
13-15 That famous promise God gave Abraham—that he and his children would possess the earth—was not given because of something Abraham did or would do. It was based on God’s decision to put everything together for him, which Abraham then entered when he believed. If those who get what God gives them only get it by doing everything they are told to do and filling out all the right forms properly signed, that eliminates personal trust completely and turns the promise into an ironclad contract! That’s not a holy promise; that’s a business deal. A contract drawn up by a hard-nosed lawyer and with plenty of fine print only makes sure that you will never be able to collect. But if there is no contract in the first place, simply a promise—and God’s promise at that—you can’t break it.
16 This is why the fulfillment of God’s promise depends entirely on trusting God and his way, and then simply embracing him and what he does. God’s promise arrives as pure gift. That’s the only way everyone can be sure to get in on it, those who keep the religious traditions andthose who have never heard of them. For Abraham is father of us all. He is not our racial father—that’s reading the story backward. He is our faith father.Until the hundreds and hundreds of Churches of God start practicing grace, mercy, and justice, the Church of God will NEVER be unified. It is an impossibility.
Dave Pack thinks he is going to unify the church with tens of thousands
ReplyDeleteThe same Dave Pack's angry and arrogant outburst a few years ago when he read that Richard Ames made a cordial visit to COGWA HQ.
"Hi all. This may be an odd question but do splinters like cogwa, ucg, pcg, lcg, do re me, consider themselves "sister" churches or something like that??"
ReplyDeleteYes, they do...except for when they don't. OTOH, e.g. even liberal UCG where I attended will say when asked directly that they believe there are "true" christians elsewhere, but OTOH you'll often hear sermons that will contradict that. During the COGWA split, John Elliott even went so far as to make in writing the truly astounding, ridiculous, and patently false claim that the ministry of UCG were the inheritors of the mantle of authority of the old testament Levitical priesthood on earth. But if you pressed him on that today, he'd probably deny he ever claimed it.
What you have to understand is that sentiments like this aren't necessarily coherent. If you asked a random member how they feel about atheists, they'll probably tell you they're just completely lost and deceived. If you then ask them how they feel about evangelicals, they'll probably tell you that, well, at least they believe in God, right? Then if you ask them about Jews, they'll probably mention that they keep many of God's laws, and they believe in the sabbaths and holy days, so they have a lot of undefined "understanding" for which God is probably "blessing" them in undefined ways. Then if you ask them how they feel about people in a particular sister COG, they'll probably tell you that they're "brethren" of like mind. However, if you didn't stage things in this way, and you just started out by asking them how they felt about people in that particular sister COG, they might tell you that they're just completely lost and deceived.
But it also depends on the generation. Younger people are more likely to feel that all the people in all the Armstrongist splinters are all their brethren, and that they wished the ministers could stop squabbling. Older people are more likely to feel that other splinters are "losing it" and are veering off into gross error. Meanwhile, ministers are more likely to feel like their splinter is the "one true church" and the only place where God is working on earth today. These are just generalities though, and there will be many exceptions. Also, you'll see many exceptions made, such as for Don Ward, Larry Salyer, or Dr. Germano, to flip flop on the beliefs they profess and church hop when they find themselves out of a job, even among splinters that would be loathe to allow a regular member to do the same thing.
The best rule of thumb is never to take anything for granted, or to ever expect coherence or consistency from one day to the next, even from the same person, and never assume that the rules that were applied to one person or church will be applied to the next. And in the ministry it's all political, and unless you know the specific political situation, you'll never be able to predict things. Paul Kieffer was caught having an affair, and UCG covered it up. Not long after, Melvin Rhodes was caught in the same offense and they defrocked him. Go figure. Par for the course is x, where x is the random output of a chaotic system.
Well Gee. Where did all of this bad behavior suddenly come from? They act as if they had never been part of any kind of "true" church. That's rather telling!
ReplyDeleteThere's an old saying: If you want to know someone's true nature, step on them and see what comes out. From a lot of the posts I've read over the past 15 years, people seem to feel that Joe Tkach Sr. "stepped on" the WCG. But, look what came out! No wonder they liken him to the "light-bringer".
It's all Gamaliel.
BB
Question was asked: "...Since all of these men claim to be Christian, then why do they act so spiteful with each other?..."
ReplyDeleteJames, a servant of God and of Jesus Christ, told other fellow-Christians this:
"Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?" James 4:5
Those xcog leaders are not immune to this other spirit, which dwells within them, but what is lust and envy like for fruits/works in one's life?
Regarding envy, Romans 1 gives a hint:
:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; FULL OF ENVY, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Not very nice! Regarding envy again, Galatians 5 gives another hint:
:19 Now the WORKS OF THE FLESH are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 ENVYINGS, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
But lust? Regarding lust, Jesus Christ said this (& there are lots of other verses) to the professing leaders of His day when He walked this earth as a human being ( and not some "god in the flesh!):
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:44
Enuf said!
The original post ended with saying: "Until the hundreds and hundreds of Churches of God start practicing grace, mercy, and justice, the Church of God will NEVER be unified. It is an impossibility."
These xcog leaders are so blind that they cannot practice that grace, mercy and justice. Nor do they understand the following verse:
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them..." 2 Cor 5:19
They can't preach that at all. Perhaps all of these xcog leaders are just proving they have nothing to do with God's Church. They're just man-made organizations and associations doing their own things.
Yes, they "short-shift Jesus to the back burner" in order to, b/c they are driven by another spirit, preach another Jesus and another gospel.
Time will tell...
John
You shall know them by their fruits. Their fruits keep revealing anything but Godly love. Oh, they 'love the law' but what is that without justice, mercy, faith, brotherly love, forbearance, and humility?
ReplyDeleteNothing.
No, they do not love one another.
ReplyDeleteChrist said you would know His own by the love they have one for another. There is no love at all between these groups only animosity and feelings of " we are better than you".
Since these 'groups' don't like each other much, they are not Christ's. But they don't believe that.
They reject justice for Pharisaic law.
ReplyDeleteWhat permeates these churches is gang morality. They hide it with their endless bible (mis)quoting, but that's the reality.
Gary writes:
ReplyDelete“Love, grace, mercy, and justification are not found in the law.”
Love is not found in the law? Please explain. (While there is a ‘curse’ of the law there is also the ‘blessing’ of the law).
Here are some things that I have read this weekend as background:
Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
(Lev 19:18b but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD).
“The citation from Lev 19:18 clearly represents the essence of the law (though Paul regularly omits the command to love God mentioned in the Synoptic accounts (Mark 12:28-34; Matt 22:22:34-40; Luke 10:25-37). He seems, however, to go beyond summarization by saying that the free life of love in reality (and of course in Christ) does fulfil the law. To put it in the words of the Romans parallel, “He who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law” (Rom 13:8). This love puts the law in proper perspective.
“... love does not do away with the law but confirms it and provides its correct interpretation. Paul turns to the torah (Lev 19:18) itself to find the “one word” which describes its fulfillment. The torah is not then destroyed but set in a new perspective by the command to love” (Charles B. Cousar, Galatians, Interpretation, pp.131-32).
Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
“The word ‘therefore’ introduces the deduction which Jesus now draws for his disciples from the enduring validity of the law and his own attitude with respect to it. It reveals a vital connection between the law of God and the kingdom of God. Because he has come not to abolish but to fulfil, and because not an iota or dot will pass from the law until all has been fulfilled, therefore greatness in the kingdom of God will be measured by conformity to it. Nor is personal obedience enough; Christian disciples must also teach to others the permanently binding nature of the law’s commandments...
Ro 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
“It was a new heart-righteousness which the prophets foresaw as one of the blessings of the Messianic age, ‘I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts,’ God promised Jeremiah (31:33). How would he do it? He told Ezekiel: ‘I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes’ (36:27). Thus God’s two promises to put his law within us and to put his Spirit within us coincide. We must not image (as some do today) that when we have the Spirit we can dispense with the law, for what the Spirit does in our hearts, is precisely, to write God’s law there. So ‘Spirit’, ‘law’, ‘righteousness’ and ‘heart all belong together” (John R.W. Stott, The Message of the Sermon on the Mount, BST, pp.74-75).
Why are some of these folks so nasty, you ask? Gal 5 speak of the works of the flesh and the fruit of the spirit. There's a hint. Matt. 7:21, Didn't we lead a WCG splinter group congregation? Jesus replies, "Depart from me, I never knew you." What he is saying, in effect is, "Go to HELL." Oh, to be able to see the looks on their faces when that happens. Some smug, arrogant, self-righteous, hypercritical, poorly trained in Scripture, so-called "ministers" might be in for a huge surprise some day. I wonder if some of them would rather stand in from of Moses, the Law Giver, than Jesus, the Life Giver; a familiar judge rather than a stranger.
ReplyDeleteSince many COGS lack love even WITHIN their own group, its logical that love for others outside their own group would be found wanting.
ReplyDeleteThe human race is too deceitful and brainwashed to survive much longer.
ReplyDeleteBB
ReplyDeleteI heard the 'step on people to find out their true nature' many times in Herbs church. So to solve the problem of discerning a persons character, sin against that person. Nice. Real Christian stuff. Use immoral short cuts that give questionable results, and forget about the narrow gate thingy.
No wonder these ACOGs are going to the dogs.
Why would you automatically jump to sin, 10:50? In the corporate world, there are many ethical ways to apply pressure, simply in the usage of certain situations that naturally occur. I realize that a certain percentage of the devotees to Armstongism feel that the Tkaches epitomized sin because they restudied and attempted to correct HWA's doctrinal approach. Unfortunately, they were also corrupted by HWA's post-1939 management style, and attempted to force the changes rather than lead. They had also learned a certain amount of disingenuousness from HWA. I don't condone that element of their activities at all. In fact, over a period of two years, that behavior scared some of my own family members from the safety of the New Covenant right back into the old Armstrong heresies.
DeleteThe WCG circumstances of the '90s did cause a "stepped on" effect which revealed certain very deep character flaws amongst the prominent ones whom we had all formerly looked to as leaders during HWA's lifetime. What occurred was divisive and self-aggrandizing, and has resulted in unthinkable changes even in the groups which loudly proclaim that they are preserving the original teachings of HWA. All of these "leaders" hold themselves above accountability and refuse to be governed. Rod Meredith became the poster boy for this sort of behavior in the Global fiasco.
There really isn't anything of value that I can cite as the takeaways from my twenty years in Armstrongism, no baby in the bathwater. People use the cliche that "it helped shape you into the person that you are today", but I really feel that I could be a much better version of myself without having ever been exposed to the teachings of HWA, and I'd have fewer "dead spots". This thread is not only an indictment against the lack of love amongst current Armstrongites. I had come to realize decades ago that the legalism of Armstrongism had altered my own feelings for fellow human beings, even though I left in 1975. But, that's what Armstrongism does. It reprograms and kills some of the good parts of our human nature, and it is very difficult to get those back, especially in our attitudes towards the people who are still enslaved by the scam.
BB
If Pay Pal and the banks can shut down the funding for Alt-Right groups, it's a wonder they don't shut it down for the COGs. It is because the COGs have a powerless message or because they are playing into the hands of the controllers of the media?
ReplyDeleteRegarding BB @ 12:29 PM...
ReplyDeleteYou mention Rod Meredith. He was an interesting specimen. He would often lament, to his family or "inner circle," that he got the WCG's "losers" and "weirdos" while Hulme and UCG got the "good people" when the church split. Some Meredith loyalists were deeply wounded when they realized how much their leader identified with the upper-crust WCG members who ended up in other groups because they wanted no part of Meredith. Right up to his death, Meredith went out of his way to be warm and accepting and encouraging of people from Hulme's group when they expressed any interest in joining LCG. Some in LCG attributed this simply to Meredith seeing dollar signs when he looked at wealthy defectors from Hulme, but those closest to Meredith knew that it was more than that, that Meredith respected most members of Hulme's group far more than he respected the downtrodden ordinary folks who made up so much of LCG's membership.
In a sense, 2:18, in looking at the people he attracted, Rod was looking in a mirror. They were a reflection of himself, plain and simple, just as in looking at Hulme's people, he was seeing a reflection of David Hulme. Assuming he honestly thought that it was God who had called these people, I can see where it would be a great mystery to him why he got all the everyday working people, and Hulme got the elite. Rod's confirmation bias would have led him to believe that he, Rod, would have attracted the cream.
DeleteWe also have to remember HWA, who had no respect for the "dumb sheep", and turned to photo ops with dignitaries and world leaders for his self-validation. This is something that eventually happens to all bottom feeders as a result of their introspective moments.
BB
Anon 2:18 Meredith lamenting about other members in other cog groups I can believe. It goes on the other side of the fence, other churches of God too. Members are mere cartoon figures to these men. The others man's grass, is always greener to these lust filled envying men. They have zero respect for members and always underestimate them. They always want their group to only contain their kind of elite. To make them comfortable any deemed not of use to them are shipped out yo other groups. It would not surprise me at all how widespread this mentality is. It goes on in UCG LCG PCG and COGWA
DeleteWhy can't they just get along together?
ReplyDeleteIn one of HWA's letters talking about his world trips, he described hob-nobbing socially with world leaders at some function. Mixing with his supposed peers, he wrote that he asked, Why can't everyone get along like this?
In the splinter situation, I think it may be more like HWA living in Chicago in the 1920s, hearing about the prohibition gang wars, and asking Loma, Why can't they just get along together?
The Israelites sinned against God and wandered around the Sinai desert for 40 years, until the entire generation who sinned against Him died. It was the next generation that inherited the promised land. The original generation, the one that came out of Egypt, all died off before they reached it. Even Moses only saw it. He didn't get to live in it.
ReplyDeleteThere is an entire generation of ACOG who will have to pass away before there can be any love rekindled between the groups. All of the adults who attended the original WCOG are part of that generation, so it could conceivably be another 60 years before enough water will have passed under the bridge for ACOG's to make peace among themselves.
There are always some who aren't as affected by peer pressure, or those of us who have done enough "reprogramming" to have made peace in our lives after COG's. But those in leadership roles especially, are still infected by the sickness of WCOG and precious few have been willing to put aside a failed paradigm.
The definition of insanity has been said to be the act of doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results. HWA's method, ultimately, proved a failure. The splinters continue to follow the same method and seem surprised that they continue to fail.
I have come to believe that it will take a new generation of leaders to let go of the "glorious" past and consider a newer, more functional paradigm for the future. There are already some, small and independent, groups doing this. I think as more of the "infected" leadership and (sad to say) members age and pass away, there will be more room for new, healthy growth. The new growth will have some things in common with ACOG's but it will be something different too, without the diseased roots of the old regime. I don't think it will happen in my lifetime. I think the sickness and the disfunction simply run too deep.
Many "brethren" can barely tolerate each other within the same organization, nonetheless have much love for someone in another COG group. The love of many has waxed cold! There won't be any BIG, unified work on this Earth at this rate.
ReplyDeleteNo one can even be sure that the 2 witnesses actually come from any church. They belong to God, not a man or organization.
Anon 218, that reminds me of Cream of the crud.
ReplyDeleteBB and Hoss,
ReplyDeleteI noticed on many singles group outings, that the morally challenged members chose a toxic person as the informal group leader. Which is why so many 'losers' and 'weirdos' joined Rods outfit. They knew he was cruel and twisted. He got what he deserved. That he ranted against it is no surprise. Many XCOG members have a problem with basic reality, such as you reap what you sow. It's like people stealing but wanting to be thought of as honest. Weird indeed.
That's interesting, 7:13. I'm still digesting what you said about the toxic people being chosen as leaders by morally challenged individuals. It sounds almost masochistic, and by all accounts, being a glutton for punishment would seem to be part of the basic skill set necessary for existence and survival as a successful Church of God member.
DeleteIt's been a while since I've shared this, but I learned about ACOG "authority" at a very young age at SEP. Most of the campers just plain lusted after being even an assistant-assistant monitor. Somehow, second year, I got to be in charge of our booth. Life became hell. No support, respect or back-up either from above or below. After that experience, I rejected any overtures to be any sort of authority at subsequent SEP's, or at AC. At best, you were a puppet or a snitch. And, that's the way I felt for all of my WCG years. I deliberately shunned their kind of authority.
What I came to realize years later, in business, is that if you are in control, you get to set the standards for fairness and ethics, and you can exert a positive impact on the surrounding business community. If you set high standards, competitors must either match those standards, or at least make an attempt to fake them.
Now, here's the thing. From what has been shared by Dennis Diehl, Dennis attempted to have this same kind of positive impact in his position as a WCG minister. In many cases, he actually had to "sneak" to do the right things. And, the system chewed him up and spit him out, but they could not destroy him because he had a solid moral background from his pre-WCG church experience. There were a heck of a lot of "nice guys" at AC who somehow allowed themselves to be corrupted by the system into authoritarian tyrants (and, no, Dave Pack was never one of these nice guys).
Daniel 4:17 perfectly explains the type of authority we all experienced as Armstrongites. Armstrongism is a man-made religion, and God has truly allowed the basest of men to be its overseers.
BB
photo ops with dignitaries and world leaders for his self-validation
ReplyDeleteAnd this need for validation seems inherent in the system. Dave's RCG World Headquarters Complex - which itself sounds like an ailment - was touted as "a location to receive visiting dignitaries". While another of Rod's minions desperately sought recognition as a prophet.
It never ceases to amaze me that people still cling to the basic fantasies about the coming tribulation, two witnesses, rising beasts and all that other garbage mainly based on that stupid book called a revelation. It was some bad dream or someone's prolific imagination gone wild and it almost didn't make it into that catholic canon. But, I guess that it resembled that other prophetic and historical travesty, Daniel, enough to squeeze through. It also amazes me, and that includes the me of past times, that people can read over absurdity after absurdity and still cling to it as revealed truth. Grimm wasn't the only fairy tale inventor. Those books should begin, "Once upon a time some stupid guy had a stupid hallucination."
ReplyDeleteAllen C. Dexter
Somebody once asked Rod Meredith what Jesus was like. So Rod gave a description of Jesus' personality. Basically, Rod just described himself. I doubt if anyone really knows much about Jesus' personality. It was a case of Rod describing Jesus in his own image.
ReplyDeleteThe amount of love expressed varies considerably, in particular between the generations. The older members seem to feel a sort of pity towards those in other groups, in the vein of "Poor you, you're not one of us, so you'll have to go through the Tribulation." The younger ones, not so much. Generalities, of course, but that seems to be the overall trend.
ReplyDeleteBut there are a number who feel that the main differences come down to little more than ego on the part of the ministers.
What, specifically, do these groups believe will cause someone to go through the tribulation? "Mr. So and So says? Is it just a matter of having bias confirmation in their prayers leading them to the wrong group? Or is it that someone would be lax in applying the basic tenets of Armstrongism in whatever group they are in? For that matter, why would it even be a function of Armstrongism? Or even falling in our times, seeing as how this is Jewish year 5777?
DeleteThis is something that was thundered from the pulpit originally in the 1950s, and apparently has not diminished with the years, despite constant delays. Why is anyone even afraid of this any more?
BB
Anon wrote:
ReplyDelete"If Pay Pal and the banks can shut down the funding for Alt-Right groups, it's a wonder they don't shut it down for the COGs."
For the COGs, the only way to shut them down I'm afraid, is from the source. The paying members.
On Twitter there's currently a hashtag meme #EmptythePews where people state why they left particular congregations, generally with the encouragement for others to do so.
The megachurches, the COGs and similar ilk depend *entirely* on their members sending in funds.
COG members, do you have a problem with your church's policies? It's simple, you just withhold your tithes and offerings.
Do you want to see church policy change real, real fast? Get enough members boycotting sending in their tithes. Just for a specified period, if you like.
Don't worry, God and His Master Plan will be just fine without your money.
It's the deluded or overbearing leaders that will quiver in their boots.
BB
ReplyDeleteThese people choosing a toxic leader is not sadomasochism. They expect their leader to be partial to them. The old Pharisees 'loving' one another. But this love is shallow and fleeting. Contrary to what the followers expect, their leader does turn against them. This is consistent with their bad character.
Maggie August 20, 2017 at 3:48 PM said: "...The Israelites sinned against God and wandered around the Sinai desert for 40 years, until the entire generation who sinned against Him died. It was the next generation that inherited the promised land. The original generation, the one that came out of Egypt, all died off before they reached it. Even Moses only saw it. He didn't get to live in it..."
ReplyDeleteMaggie, FWIIW, Moses not only saw the promised land, but he was within the Promised land and died within the Promised land, which was on both sides of the Jordan River.
Really? Yes! Moses was told: "Get thee up into the top of Pisgah, and lift up thine eyes westward, and northward, and southward, and eastward, and behold it with thine eyes: for thou shalt not go over this Jordan." Deut 3:27
Moses was not allowed to go beyond the Jordan River into the western portion of the Promised land, but he was within the Promised land and able to see the land all around him from the top of Pisgah.
I believe it was 2 1/2 tribes remained within the Promised Land on the eastern side of the Jordan River.
You may also do your own research and see that cities of refuge were located on both sides of the Jordan River.
That generation of Israelites that were twenty years and upward did not go into the promised land. Those under age twenty, when the pronouncement was made, did enter the Promised land...including Korah's children.
Numbers 26:10 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died, what time the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men: and they became a sign.
:11 Notwithstanding the children of Korah died not.
You concluded your comment saying: "...The new growth will have some things in common with ACOG's but it will be something different too, without the diseased roots of the old regime. I don't think it will happen in my lifetime. I think the sickness and the disfunction simply run too deep..."
The New Testament if full of examples of "sickens and dysfunction," for one reason or another, within God's Church. Some of it is described in Revelation 2-3.
It will continue for awhile yet.
Time will tell.
John
BB, you asked a lot of interesting questions: "...What, specifically, do these groups believe will cause someone to go through the tribulation?
ReplyDelete"Mr. So and So says?
Is it just a matter of having bias confirmation in their prayers leading them to the wrong group?
Or is it that someone would be lax in applying the basic tenets of Armstrongism in whatever group they are in?
For that matter, why would it even be a function of Armstrongism?
Or even falling in our times, seeing as how this is Jewish year 5777?..."
It's enough to make one wonder what the Malm would say! Lack of zeal? etc.
The phrase "The Great Tribulation," as most of the modern-day prophets of Baal might say, cannot be found in the Bible. Nor is their Mickey Mouse Millennium found either.
However, over all, one might say that humanity has been under some "great tribulation" since the time Satan, the god of this present evil world, entered the Garden of Eden and infected/infested the minds of Adam and Eve. We're all still getting our noses, sort of speak, rubbed in the presence of evil and vanity to one degree or another.
If people are right, pure, clean in their own eyes, I imagine each person will think that the "great tribulation" was for someone else, anyone else but them.
Some tribulation does have benefits.
Jesus said: "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye SHALL have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33
"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God." Acts 14:22
"And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;" Romans 5:3
"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10
etc.
One way or another, BB, we will all experience great tribulation, as has all previous generations, but/and ...we shall endure until the end!
Time will tell...
John
Good explanation, John. And, that's the one that I've heard from some mainstream pastors who are not preoccupied with "unlocking" Revelation to fleece tithepayers.
DeleteFor a minute, yesterday, I thought I had my own tribulation going on. I was replacing my garbage disposer and discovered mid-project that Insinkerator had only provided a right-angle exit pipe, and I needed a straight one. When I went to fire up my primary vehicle to go to Home Depot, the battery was dead as a doornail. Fortunately, the tubing kit for the garbage disposer was only about $3.00, and the car battery was completely covered by warranty. Blessing! Just a little more work than I had envisioned on a hot summer afternoon.
BB
John
ReplyDeleteYour point of Moses entering/not entering the promised land has been debated here before. God said Moses wouldn't enter the promised land, while John says he did. I choose to believe God.
Keep in mind that Moses not entering the promised land is a warning to ministers not to push God to one side. Which they in fact do, by minimizing Christ, hiding that God leads members directly (no middleman ministers), and lording it over members lives, which nullifies the worshipping of God and following His lead. Like Satan, these minister lust the role of God the Father and Jesus Christ. They, true to Big Brother double speak, call this usurping of Gods responsibilities 'administering Gods government.'
There's gonna be a lot of ministers sizzling in the lake of fire.
1 Corinthians 13New International Version (NIV)
ReplyDelete13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
The Hammond Indiana church in WWG had John Ritenbaugh for a couple years or so. He never quoted from I Cor. 13 because his constant preaching of Faith and how we were all falling short would have spotlighted that Love was the most important attribute of a real Christian. WWG pretty much paid lip service to Love because it wasn’t very masculine, too Protestant and would contrast to the behavior of many of the ministers. It’s the same reason that WWG put Jesus in the back of the bus, because love was a central teaching of Christ and Jesus pointed to the religious leaders of the time as being wanting in Godly Love.
WWG had to be different by focusing on the Sabbath, Holy Days and other doctrines, but the love part was neglected just like the Pharisees of old.
John reassures Byker Bob, "One way or another, BB, we will all experience great tribulation, as has all previous generations, but/and ...we shall endure until the end!"
ReplyDeleteThat's true, John. Reminds me of a guy back in the Ozarks that worked in a stave mill. He would vacillate between the Bible and the bottle. Either way he was dangerous. Every two weeks or so he would go to church and spend the next few days testifying about the Lord and urging people to go to church. After a while he would fall off the wagon on a Friday night and drink right through Sunday. He would spend the next couple of weeks cussing and fighting.
One Monday noon after a weekend jag, he was sitting in the shed next to the water keg holding his head and moaning with a hangover. All morning he had been assaulted by the roar of the diesel engine in the mill, the broop! broop! of the barrel saw, and the sharp twang of the two edging saws. The worst were the equalizer saws, paired circular saws six feet in diameter and thirty-nine inches apart that cut off the ends of a split section of white oak tree trunk to trim it to length. They screamed mercilessly when the operator pushed the carriage between them that held the chunk of wood. This guy was the operator.
I went into the shed to pick up my lunch bucket and asked him, "You sufferin' today, man?"
"Aw, it's turrible. I seen my son born, and right after he come out, he bawled because he was miserable. I seen my daddy die of cancer, and he was moanin' and hollerin' for mercy because he was miserable. Now here I am, halfway between, and I'm miserable. That's all life is, buddy, nothin' but misery from one end to the other."
He thought about that for a few seconds. "Besides that, it's too goddamn short!"
I got a hilarious laugh out of that one, Prof. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteAllen C. Dexter
With all the web sites being thrown off the internet in the last few days (Google bans, Facebook deletions, youtube deletions, bank defunding, expensive nuisance lawsuits, etc) how long will the COGs last? How long will Banned last? How long will any free speech last. Shoot your mouth off while you can...soon you won't be able to.
ReplyDeleteI believe some in various splinter groups understand that others from different groups are their brethren and that they do genuinely care for them. Not the majority, however. This type of exclusive members only thinking, stems from the ministry drilling it over and over in the lay members heads. They do this with selective scriptures, all the while leaving some of the most important ones out that disprove their theory.
ReplyDeleteI came from a relatively small WWCG splinter group were primarily all of them held this belief of being exclusive. Oh sure, they would say how they cared for those out there wandering, but would relegate them to the lake of fire in the same sentence because they were not keeping every single teaching they did. Unfortunately, I thought that way for a number of years myself until I found myself outside of that group, and read a whole mess of scriptures that I never blew the dust off before. A sure way to know that no group out there is 100% correct regardless of what they say, is located in Revelation chapter 1:13
"And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle". Jesus stands in the middle of all the churches today not liking everything he sees. These leaders need to get a grip on their egos or its Ezekiel 34 for them.
Thanks for the correction John, I haven't read it recently and was going on an aging and imperfect memory. I do think that it will be many years yet, before things change, but I also believe that things can change. Change is one of the only constants in the universe. Where so many current splinters fail is rejecting that change and trying to hold onto the past. Like people whose lives peaked in high school or college and relive their glory days well into their twilight years.
ReplyDeleteMaggie,
ReplyDeleteThe church under Herb created a 'socially constructed' alternate reality that is worshipped to this day by the splinters. The reverence towards Herb is really a love of a man made fantasy. Part of this fantasy is that members are only permitted to grow along certain narrow corridors such as technical skills and public speaking. But forget about independence and self responsibility. The ministers own members lives, no freedoms are allowed, and 'government is everything' reigns supreme. It's a paradise for thugs and bullies.