Some in the Living Church of God are all excited over a story about the Jewish High Holy days and how some Christians have appropriated their days for their own unique use.
Forward.com had the following mention of LCG: Christians Celebrate The High Holidays, Too — But Are They Welcome At Synagogue?
Yom Kippur, the holiday during which Jews atone for sins through prayer and repentance, is popular in some Christian circles, where it meshes with their belief that Jesus Christ died for the sins of man. Some are so moved by idea that during the High Holidays they venture beyond their communities into Jewish spaces. Jews have a range of reactions. Some view Christian guests as unwelcome interlopers, while others sound downright happy to have them.
Most Christian observances of the High Holidays are clearly grounded in a separate theology and typically take place in their own distinct, Christian world.
Members of the Living Church of God, an American denomination of some 10,000 members, headquartered in North Carolina, will gather in churches across the country, for example. Like White, they will fast, reflecting on “the awesome sacrifice of the Lamb of God.”The source that sent me this from LCG had to chuckle about the story asking whether Christians were welcome at the synagogue. He said LCG would not be welcome because LCG thinks it is better than the Jews and knows more about the holy days than they do.
Today in the COG's it is more about not eating and drinking than anything else. With Jesus out of the picture 99% of the time, it is hard for members to even know what to think about the day and what it symbolizes in Jewish history.
It's a moot point. After paying a first and third tithe to imposters who aren't eligible to collect tithes meant for the Levitical priesthood and Temple service, and after saving another tithe to spend hour after hour listening to sermons at an annual "church convention" that bears few of the marks of God's genuine Sukkot holy days, very few LCG members have enough disposable income to afford a seat at a Jewish synagogue's High Holy Day services.
ReplyDeleteYou really don't know what we at LCG teach. I only look at your site to see how wrong you are.
ReplyDeleteSorry to say but many in Lcg don't know what they teach ,for example it is strongly advised in LCG not to visit sites such as this one that are critical of the Church and it's doctrines. I heard some lcg members making mockery of a certain pastor that believed in going to heaven they were doing a number on him until I mentioned to them that lcg now believes we will go to heaven with their new marriage supper or wedding doctrine(whatever it is). One longtime member got the sarcasm in my tone and laughed.
DeleteWhatever the holy days once meant to the Jews in Old Testament times, the meaning has changed. The Talmud is very different than the Old Testament. Nowadays on atonement, Jews request--and expect to receive--forgiveness for sins they are YET TO COMMIT in the year ahead. As long as they do vile things to the soul-less gentiles, whose sole function in life is to serve the Jews (just like cattle, sheep, and other livestock) this is perfectly okay. But they can't do those things to other Jews.
ReplyDeleteOne of the benefits of the Day of Atonement was that the very gregarious and talkative gentleman who normally chewed garlic at regular sabbath services was more enjoyable for fellowship on the D.O.A.
ReplyDeleteBB
So , would Jews be welcome at a COG Atonement service?
ReplyDeleteOur WCG minister once said one of the WCG congregations met in part of a rented building also occupied by a fringe Jewish sect. He commented that the Jewish group was surprised to see the WCG group, and see them happy and joking on what they, the Jewish group, considered a solemn day.
ReplyDeleteSince we're discussing Atonement, Bob Thiel uses Hebrews 10:4 - For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins... as his 'proof' that 'sacrifices' (offerings) are no longer required, not mentioning that it's a reference to the Day of Atonement (as is Heb 9:13).
"With Jesus out of the picture 99% of the time"
ReplyDeleteReally!!! Is that what this site believes LCG teaches?
Showing love and respect to your fellow human beings is soooo much more important then what "days" you keep holy. The fact is "no" day is holy. What is holy is the love and respect we show each other 365 days a year!
ReplyDeleteAmen
DeleteWhat, no mention of the harping on "At one" that occurs only among English speakers? Ha.
ReplyDeleteHilarious Byker!
ReplyDelete"Showing love and respect to your fellow human beings is soooo much more important then what "days" you keep holy. The fact is "no" day is holy. What is holy is the love and respect we show each other 365 days a year!"
ReplyDeletewhat about God? how do you show love and respect for Him when you ignore His instructions?
"Ignore His instructions"
DeleteUsually the meaning posters are intending to convey by this buzz phrase is that you must adhere to the Herbert W. Armstrong version of the New Covenant. Armstrongites also cite their adherence as being the reason why God would choose them specifically as His vessel or conduit for the correct interpretation of end time prophecy. The Armstrong prophecy mold has consistently failed, although they have persisted in explaining this away (while genetic science reveals that Anglo-Saxons could not be the biological descendents of Manasseh and Ephraim) by "postponements".
HWA's prophetic insights into World War II did not even reflect the knowledge from the Book of Revelation that the physical nation of Israel would need to exist at the time of the apocalypse. Didn't happen until '48. His warnings that WW II would culminate in Armageddon were way off base! Post WW II, he continued to preach that Hitler had survived and was in hiding, soon to return to lead a revived Holy Roman Empire in punishing "modern day Israel" Again, bad insights from an alleged conduit for God. 1975 which we all grew up believing would be the end also never happened. HWA's doctrines and dos and don'ts are not any sort of key to understanding. He and they have consistently failed, and that has continued with his alleged successors.
In their circular reasoning, the doctrines are cited in establishing the credibility of the prophecy, and the prophecy is cited as the punishment for all who don't keep the doctrines. Empirical evidence over the past 40+ years proves that neither can be true.
Love for God is shown by love for fellow man, and good stewardship for God's creation. Armstrongism always preached the first of the Two Great Commandments of the Lord while diminishing the second. The truth is, they both end up being one and the same. There is no basis in scripture for all of the false gnosticism and legalism of Armstrongism. Desperate people are now even attempting to base members' salvation on their response to greater extortion, and taking prophecy even way beyond what HWA preached. Such prophecies will continue to be shown wrong and will fail.
BB
what about God? how do you show love and respect for Him when you ignore His instructions?
ReplyDeleteGood question. If God tells me that He has cancelled a prior instruction, I certainly can't be showing Him my love and respect if I continue to follow that prior instruction. It's as if I'm ignoring His loving action that made the prior instruction cancellable.
following 'rules' for days and the ways to observe them and then ignoring the instruction to care for and treat your fellow man the way you want to be treated is NOT keeping God's instructions.
ReplyDeletei'm so sick and tired of all our (acog's, blogs, neighbors, world) bickering and fighting and sniping at one another. i often wonder if the word/s that are going to be first heard when Christ returns won't be, "THAT'S ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!! STOP IT!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't really say about LCG, as that's outside my experience, but I do have to agree with Anonymous @ 6:32 pm.
ReplyDeleteJesus is definitely in the picture in the majority of the sermons I hear.
That view may have been accurate several decades ago in WCG days, but I don't think such a broad generalization paints a true picture of what is taught in all of the splinters.
how easily does something 'get your goat'? that's what's going on most of the time. something is always 'getting OUR goat'. whether it's our pain, our pride, our need for consideration, attention, or caring from a fellow human being.
ReplyDeletehow does one 'forbear one another'? forbear= to PUT UP WITH. we don't have a need to 'put up with' a perfectly loving, righteous person....do we?
I'm only hear to read the dumb ass comments by Armstrong worshippers.
ReplyDeleteDespite the admonitions of their apostles, evangelists, prophets and other little grubby men in charge, they do a lot of reading here. :)
DeleteAnon6:51PM
ReplyDelete"Showing love and respect to your fellow human beings is soooo much more important then what "days" you keep holy. The fact is "no" day is holy. What is holy is the love and respect we show each other 365 days a year!"
Anon7:49AM
"what about God? how do you show love and respect for Him when you ignore His instructions?"
Anon8:18 AM
"Good question. If God tells me that He has cancelled a prior instruction, I certainly can't be showing Him my love and respect if I continue to follow that prior instruction. It's as if I'm ignoring His loving action that made the prior instruction cancellable."
Anon8:42 AM
"following 'rules' for days and the ways to observe them and then ignoring the instruction to care for and treat your fellow man the way you want to be treated is NOT keeping God's instructions."
This disagreement isn't just among Armstrongists, or just among christians. It's the product of a fundamental incoherence in the bible itself. Legalists like us Armstrongists were taught to be, who prioritize ritual acts of direct devotion to their god are reading the commandments parts of the bible and assuming that trumps love. Those who are more progressive are reading the parts about love toward your neighbor constituting practical, indirect acts of devotion to their god and assuming that trumps the commandments.
The truth is, you cannot do both simultaneously. You have to pick one, or the other. Resources spent in direct ritual devotion are resources that are not available for the fatherless and the widows.
I was raised in Armstrongism to prioritize the direct relationship with the christian god over the indirect one via your neighbor. Eventually it dawned on me that it makes you crazy to try to do both, because you're always a bad person because you can't help "neglecting" either one or the other.
So then I realized that being a legalist can't be right because it makes you into a self-righteous, judgmental asshole, and being a progressive christian can't be right either because you have to disobey all these direct commandments. This had the effect of drawing my attention to the fact that christianity, in practice, is an unworkable construct, unless the point is to trap well-meaning people into a no-win situation in which there is no course of action that can't be second-guessed and demonized, meanwhile relieving us sheeple of our cash.
It's almost as if...as if maybe the whole thing was made up? Nah, couldn't be.
Basically, your post does a real nice paraphrase of what Paul taught to the Galatians. Sadly, the decorative gilding is still holding the pages together in that section of most Armstrongites' KJV Bibles.
DeleteBB
"The truth is, you cannot do both simultaneously. You have to pick one, or the other. Resources spent in direct ritual devotion are resources that are not available for the fatherless and the widows."
ReplyDeleteI think you are opening a can of worms here! LOL
I find it inspiring still that family members are praying for my well being.
I will not complain that this time should have been spent cleaning my windows if they had really loved me!
I find rituals comforting. Especially at 6 o clock in the morning when the cities in Nepal are waking up and the wives of market vendors light candles in their little temples to implore the gods for a succesful day. I do find the catholic solution for having a light lit for 50 cts in a cathedral disturbing though. I'd go with old school wax, if consulted by a pennyless widow. But they better not try to persuade me to "mend my ways"or I would whip them with the Armstrongite, "it doesn't matter anyway you superstitious heathens." Either response could be triggered by the manner of interaction with my person.
nck
I believe you have to balance the two out, and depend on grace for the rest. Any strength, practiced to excess, becomes a weakness. Armstrongism (especially Philadelphian) is fanaticism. You also have to take a hard look at who administrates each side. Your ACOG minister might take umbrage with you changing a little old non-Armstrongite lady's flat tire in a bad neighborhood on the way to sabbath services, but God could be saying to Himself "Now that child of mine actually get's it!"
ReplyDeleteBB
Christ's instruction to not lord it over members in Matthew, Mark and John is rejected by the ministers. The moral reference point used is 'the minister said' or 'Herb teaches.' Only lip service is paid to Christ. It's the commands of men that's in the drivers seat of these Pharisaic churches.
ReplyDeletethe sons of adam and eve made sacrifice unto the Lord, not because they were jewish, but because, literally from the beginning of the existence of mankind, this was the Commandment...
ReplyDeletejust because humanity as a whole ultimately got away from keeping such Commandments, and God compelled the jews to keep those same Commandments doesnt mean those Commands were meant exclusively for the jews...
many thanks Helen, and the rest, for showing that total confusion reigns at this site.
ReplyDeleteConfusion? If you want to talk about confusion look at the 500 or so splinter Churches of God all preaching something different than the next. There is no unified body of believers, no matter how hard some attempt to claim there is. Every single COG is not even unified in their own groups! Look at the constant upheaval in LCG, PCG, RCG, UCG, COGWA, etc. Look at the crazy self-appointed preachers like James Malm and Bob Thiel. Who in their right mind would follow these two buffoons? The infighting is disgusting. They all learned it from the master deceiver himself, Herbert Armstrong. He was in constant rebellion against everyone around him, from COG7 to other Sabbatarian groups. The COG's are far more confused than anyone here is!
ReplyDeleteArmstrongism very clearly experienced their own tower of Babel event. You remember the Tower of Babel, right? That was an example of God being the author of confusion. It's one of the tools that He uses against His enemies.
DeleteDebate is not the same as confusion. There was debate among the church leaders in Acts about circumcision. The debate resulted in truth becoming obvious to those seeking what was right. By contrast, the 'unity' in those united churches is only a pretence. Genuine beliefs and doubts are supressed/hidden away. This eventually results in church splits.
ReplyDeleteYou keep your 'unity' and we'II gladly stick with our 'confusion.'
There is no way that LCG has 10,000 members. Where did they come up with that number?
ReplyDeleteMost of the ministers there are pastoring 3 or 4 churches with about (20-25 brethren). Most
of the members are 55+.
LCG doesn't have very many ministers left. Several have left or died over the past 10-15
years. And countless brethren have left LCG during that time. It's doubtful that LCG has
more that 7-8K with them. That would be worldwide...every man, woman, child, & dog.
I would like to add to BB’s comment:
ReplyDelete“the physical nation of Israel would need to exist at the time of the apocalypse”.
The “great image” of Daniel 2 is a ‘telescopic’ image; and the “fourth beast” of Daniel 7 is also a ‘telescopic’ beast. That is, in regard to the former there is a “time gap” between the kingdom of iron and the kingdom of iron-and-clay; which corresponds to the “time gap” between the end of the fourth beast kingdom proper and the kingdom of the ten horns. Revelation reveals that the “time gap” between the kingdoms comprise seven successive heads - suggested by Rev 17:10 - though not easy to define.
Looking at the kingdoms of gold, silver, bronze and iron, they share four characteristics:
(1) they were the leading gentile empire of the 'world';
(2) the people of Judah were a vassal people of that empire;
(3) they had possession of the city of Jerusalem; and
(4) the Jewish sacrificial system was in operation, with a temple, during part of each gentile overlordship.
This suggest that the fifth kingdom of iron-and-clay will also display these characteristics.
One person refers to the “The ‘Peace Deal’ of Daniel 9:27", but there is no mention of a peace deal in this verse, though that may be an implication of the covenant. (Over three after the Munich Agreement American was at war).
The prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 does refer to the restoring and rebuilding of Jerusalem, which may also be a part of the Antichrist’s covenant; and the sixth infinitive of Daniel 9:24 does refer to the anointing of a holy of holies (qodesh qadashim, without the article, cp, Eze 45:12).
Daniel 9:24-27 is a type/antitype telescopic prophecy involving Christ and the Antichrist. This suggests if you want to know what the Antichrist does during his prophetic week see what Christ does, and if you want to know what Christ does during his prophetic week see what the Antichrist does.
Both get assassinated halfway through their prophetic weeks - Rev 5:6 a Lamb standing, as [hos] having been slain [esphagmenen]/Rev 13:3 one of its heads, as [hos] having been slain [esphagmenen] to death (IHEGB). (From verses 12 and 14 it is the whole beast that is wounded).
When Christ returns to complete the last half of His prophetic week the restoring and building of Jerusalem and the Temple will occur; which suggests that this will also occur, but in the first half of the Antichrist’s week - compare Christ rasing up the Church/Temple in His first half week.
Perhaps the Temple is built prior to the beginning of the Antichrist’s week and he confirms the continuing operation of Temple at the beginning of the covenant.
While this is many years away, a future earthquake, perhaps similar to “the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah” (Zechariah 14:5) may destroys the Islamic structures on the Mount Temple and pave the way for the building of a future Temple. If so, the kingdom of iron-and-clay will share in this characteristic of a Temple with its predecessors.