Poor Gerald. Would someone please buy him a shovel so he can dig his way out of the crap?
This is just in from an LCG source. Weston has lashed out at this blog and others that LCG members are closely following for news on LCG's problems.
From latest sermon posted by LCG, recorded Nov. 18, 2017. Obviously your site seriously bothers LCG leadership. He's trying to shame the membership into stop reading it. Notice that he says he doesn't read "hate blogs", but somehow knows all about what is written there.
57:00 When the Church gets off track - I say “when” - IF the Church were to get off track, it’d be obvious, as it was before. When you start doing away with the Sabbath, and the Holy Days, and laws of clean and unclean meats, and the purpose of life, and go back into keeping Christmas, and Easter, and Halloween, and all the rest, that’s pretty obvious isn’t it? In fact, you didn’t have to go that far before it became obvious where the Church was going.
(Discusses people who find fault with him and other ministers)
59:00 We have a lot of hate blogs out here, we have gossip columns in the newspapers. And I just have a question - I wanna present it to all of you: Is following, looking for information about the Church, following hate blogs, is that “thinking no evil” or expecting evil? I’ve never understood - I understand why sometimes people do find some of the hate blogs to find out what’s going on, what they’re saying about us and that sort of thing - I don’t, I really honestly don’t. Why don’t I? Because I know some of these people, and when a man is violating the 10 Commandments and doesn’t even believe in God, WHY would I think that he’s going to give me the truth of what’s happening here? If his WIFE cannot trust him then why should we? But people look to this stuff and they think, “this is where I’m going to find out what’s really happening.” What’s REALLY happening in the Church, not what they’re saying, but what’s really happening in the Church. Well, is that 1 Corinthians 13:5 or is that more Satan’s way, the ACCUSER of the brethren? We need to think about those things
Hey Rocky, watch me pull a Bible verse out of my hat...that'll scare them!
Gerald should consider how Joe T and his followers kept insisting that nothing was changing in the church, when it obviously was. The church leadership has a history of lying and misleading its members (eg 1975), so going to alternate sources is understandable.
ReplyDeleteLike all tyrannical governments, Gerald wants a monopolistic Orwellian 'ministry of truth' telling members what to believe.
In the old testament times, they didn't have a free press, but consider how over and over the OT and NT describes people having intimate knowledge of those around them and recent happenings.
Gerald is fighting human nature.
Gerald, the Sabbath is one of the Ten Commandments, but Christ said that all ten go together. If you break one, you break them all. This means that when a Church breaks the Sabbath (which LCG has done enough times, we know), it is the moral equivalent of:
ReplyDelete• A church that idolizes a man over God, and takes that man's rulings to be the equivalent of God's rulings, whether that man is HWA, RCM, or GEW.
• A church that "murders" brethren with hatred, as Patrick and Elizabeth Scarborough were "murdered" in LCG by a jealous minister who wished he could be as loved as they were. A church whose leaders "snicker" at a blog that may be sending brethren to the Lake of Fire, instead of compassionately demonstrating to its members by their fruits that the blog's accusations are false.
• A church that covets its members' estates, even publishing articles in its Living Church News encouraging brethren to violate the inheritance statutes and give money to the church instead of to children and grandchildren.
• A church that lies about former members to maintain control over current members. A church that lies about HWA's old date-setting and assignment of modern names (e.g. Mussolini) to end-time Bible figures. A church that lies about its growth (or shrinkage).
Gerald Weston seems to be implying that as long as LCG keeps the Sabbath, the other nine commandments don't matter. Unfortunately, that isn't what the Bible teaches.
I wondered where the recent common use of the term "hate blog" was coming from. Now we know.
ReplyDeleteWeston, IF you want us to not read or post on this site, all you and yours have to do is follow the 10 commandments and do unto others as we would like to be treated.
ReplyDeleteJesus said whatever you do to us, you have done to me(Jesus). So beware Gosse and Sutton change your way's as Passover is coming.
Weston said:
ReplyDeleteIf his WIFE cannot trust him then why should we?
Was that a subconscious swipe against Doug Winnail, who has had ongoing conflict with his Protestant wife? Winnail has aided and abetted LCG HQ abuses for more than a decade, while trying to be as much of a positive influence as he can, even while his time at HQ makes him more like the other awful men there. Maybe he has stayed because he thinks his replacement would be worse. Maybe for a long time he stayed because he thought he might become the next Presiding Evangelist or might become a respected and trusted influence on the next Presiding Evangelist? Maybe he thought that he could use his accredited Ph.D. to help Living University give a genuine educational experience to the brethren through Living University?
Well, what does Winnail now find?
- Not only is LU shutting down, Weston has put Jonathan McNair in charge of LCG's educational programs, rather than any of the men with Ph.D. degrees or with real-world experience in the field of education.
- Weston is doubling down on RCM's hardline approach, the main difference being that RCM talked strict but let a lot of stuff slide, while Weston holds in contempt everyone except those who are exactly as conservative (and not more conservative) than he is.
Doug, I believe, is well aware of one scripture that you rarely hear LCG leaders quote:
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. (John 10:27)
Weston belongs to the RCM school of shepherding, in which you beat the sheep until they run away, then blame the sheep for running. Winnail, by contrast, has observed LCG HQ from the inside for more than a decade, and can see for himself that the key scripture for the current LCG HQ is Matthew 23:15: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. People at LCG HQ display fewer fruits of the Holy Spirit, not more, the longer they work there. That is one reason (the other is his wife) why he spends much more time away from HQ, traveling to congregations around the world, than any of his predecessors.
If Doug and Scott Winnail started a COGWA congregation in Charlotte, I expect that they would have one of COGWA's largest congregations within a month.
@ Anon 4:58 AM
ReplyDeleteYes, the scribes and Pharisees were Sabbath-keepers (weekly and annual), who kept the dietary laws, yet Jesus Christ held them to a very strict judgement.
What do you think it is like for a new employee, or Living University student, to come to work at LCG HQ only to find out that his boss expects him to lie about certain things? What do you think it is like for a "babe" at HQ to find out that some of his peers are running to Rod McNair with false stories about people they don't like, and that Rod McNair encourages this behavior? What should someone new to HQ think when Gerald Weston not only doesn't stop this conduct, but actually rewards it? People who stay in this environment are likely to become corrupted by it. I suspect that, for some, sharing with Banned and other "hate blogs" is their way of trying to preserve their moral center even if they feel they must stay at a corrupt HQ.
I suppose it is possible that Weston will "wake up" and "put LCG back on track." However, to do so he would need to admit that he had been badly deceived, which might damage his ego and even his credibility. It would also mean firing several ministers, each of whom knows enough "insider" secrets to damage LCG's credibility very seriously. So, I don't expect much to change. Sadly, it is the most corrupt ministers who are least likely to run off and start their own new group, and who wouldn't be wanted by the other big groups. If there is a major defection, it will likely be led by the less corrupt ministers, leaving LCG even worse off than before.
If his WIFE cannot trust him then why should we?
ReplyDeleteA swipe at our evangelist-of-reason DD
Gerald W said. "I understand why sometimes people do find some of the hate blogs to find out what’s going on, what they’re saying about us and that sort of thing - I don’t, I really honestly don’t. Why don’t I? Because I know some of these people, and when a man is violating the 10 Commandments and doesn’t even believe in God, WHY would I think that he’s going to give me the truth of what’s happening here? If his WIFE cannot trust him then why should we?"
ReplyDeleteAnon speculated: "Was that a subconscious swipe against Doug Winnail, who has had ongoing conflict with his Protestant wife?"
The idea that because a person does this or that "proves" they forever more give up the ability to come to more correct conclusions is weak of course but , and I could be mistaken, Gerald is not speaking about Doug Winnail .
From what I understand Doug's wife left him a few years back and married a Presbyterian minister. In time, and I honestly have never heard of such a turn around, she returned to Doug. I guess we'd call that a love story of some kind. Doug doesn't fit the criteria Gerald lists as to why the members don't need to listen. "I know some of THESE people" means people on the blog.
However, since he is railing about blogs, and which one is probably the most annoying and popular but Banned, and since I doubt he knows Gary, I would suspect he is referring to myself here on Banned.
I replaced Gerald in Greenville, SC during all the fireworks of the Tkaches. Greenville was full of Gerald Weston loyalists and weren't about to cooperate with me since I was not exactly like him in ministry. I did not include them all in the sins, foibles, attitudes and problems of their member friends. Gerald did from what I was told. I kept them out of the loop of people's issues, church or personal, they had been accustomed to knowing. I always felt those things were not the business of those who would be around long after I was gone etc.
They often spoke with him and met with him behind my back etc. I fit his criteria pretty well. Write on the Blog he hates. "does not believe in God," at least his version, and would define me as one whose "WIFE cannot trust him."
In the messy emotional times in SC where my depression (internalized anger?) and anxiety hit hard, I was divorced and spent a number of the ensuing years living with someone I dearly loved but lost due to my own instability and outside pressures of the transition. That added to my depression and anxiety. And yes, we met at church. Gerald would revel in the whole thing.
Every minister knows many members and other ministers who have such life challenges. It is partly why I wrote "Everyone Wears Masks". That is my real life experience with everyone I know practically. I know current ministers in splinters who qualify for Gerald's not listening criteria as well.
https://hwarmstrong.com/church-of-god-info/Diehl/Everyone-Wears-Masks.htm
Gerald would know all this easily and while Gerald would dismiss anyone's input if they were "a sinner" He is the spitting personality image of RCM for sure.
I could be mistaken and just sensitive to the entire topic in ministry and life, but emotional freedom is grounded in being honest and therapeutic.
Again, I'd encourage a good read of : https://hwarmstrong.com/church-of-god-info/Diehl/Everyone-Wears-Masks.htm , for some boots on the ground insights into our humanity
Perhaps I am mistaken but to me, the most credible have always been those who openly share the good, the bad and the stupid. Removing masks can rip parts of your face off but it's worth it. You'll heal.
I'm not an atheist but I would rather talk to you on a man to man basis about life in general than Gerald Weston,he comes across as cold, judgemenal, stuck up, arrogant, self righteous while even though I may disagree with you on the existence of God you come across as more real, more humble and human than your accuser's.
DeleteAnd I did endeavor to address all the turmoil in my own life/ministry while in South Carolina. I spent a week at Charter , supposedly shielded from those that did me the least good at that time, but they let WCG head of Church Admin in and he was not on my list of people I gave permission to see me. The problem was that if I kept them out, they'd fire me and I wasn't ready for that yet. If I let them in, what happened would happen.
ReplyDeleteI was embarrassed by him when he didn't like my answer to his first question, "What have you learned here?" (IT was actually none of his business). I was angered by his evaluation that "We think you are just hiding here." (We being all of church administration I imagine) and recall my quiet mental response...
"Fuck you, please leave."
"Encouragement given to the discouraged should actually be encouraging to the one that needs it..." is my view. It's how I treated those in my churches and naively expected it in return when needed.
Tell me... what church, anywhere, has all of the money sent to one centralized "control center" and all of the decisions are made by just one guy?
ReplyDeleteHuge money given over the years to all kinds of COGs, who attend services in craphole locations. Other Churches that tithe, like the Adventists, Mormons etc, all have their own beautiful church buildings , and lots of supporting infrastructure too, like schools and hospitals.
It is quite apparent, that this centralized, communist dictatorship, form of economy DOES NOT WORK! It produces tyranny, and poverty for the masses. The COGS are the "North Korea" of Christian Churches.
Nothing will change until the brethren demand their right to properly elect their ministers, and keep their monies local for use, with just perhaps 10% of that revenue being used for a common centralized effort. Create some accountability, in the ministry, and have an ability for the lazy ones, or the abusive ones to be weeded out.
What legitimate free market organization never experiences turnover, or people being fired for bad job performance. Yet in the COGS , once you are on the breast, you are always on it!
There must be mechanism that causes "creative destruction" and cleansing, and proper "pain feedback" in order to reform and TO GROW!
Why do blogs like this exist??... because there is no legitimate form of market feedback allowed in the COGS, and just "smiling" and taking whatever slop that is dished out is considered to being "a wonderful church member". Again , just like North Korea.
Please Weston, enough of this nonsense! LET MY PEOPLE GO!
The bottom line is that Jerry Weston has spent the majority of his life in a whacked out church, believing it to be “God’s True Church”. Reality is, why would anyone trust any of the time warp parrot-cliches which he repeats, apparently believing that he can give them new life? Because nothing that Armstrongism was based upon ever happens (unless you’ve got a vivid imagination), the movement is passe. It is time for the people who are holding their noses out of loyalty to a philosophy to realize that, and for even the last of the holdouts to begin to look for other solutions in their lives. It doesn’t matter who takes the reigns in a scam, and you don’t need to listen to what they say. Start with Deut. 18:22, read Galatians without your Armstrong filters, and then embark on a new journey.
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing hateful about anything which I’ve just stated. It could not be considered to be persecution, either. Humans are unique amongst God’s creatures in that most have the ability to change their circumstances. If you find yourself in psychological entrapment, don’t make excuses for it or the people whom you are empowering to entrap you. Free yourselves. The submissive, in reality, has all the power. Use it!
BB
The one thing I like about Dennis Diehl is that much like how Albert Speer became what was known as the "Good Nazi" and was able to relate a lot of the inner workings of the Nazi regime, Dennis is able to relate much inside information of the "process" of the COGs and how much of the internal politics function.
ReplyDeleteDennis and I may disagree greatly about the validity of God, and the Bible, however, his insights into some of the cast of characters is indeed valuable and helpful.
Cliche of Armstrongism: “How can we trust anything he has to say??? Why he doesn’t even keep the sabbath!”
ReplyDeleteThat passes as valid criteria in the information age?
BB
A big reason I visit sites like this is to find out what is really going on. I knew I wasn't going to get the truth from Rod Meredith. LCG should be ashamed that this site contains more truth than LCG.
ReplyDeleteWasn't everyone here a "Good Nazi" when we first we believed? Did we just not have different ranks? You know..."There is God the Father, Christ, Herbert W Fuhrermeister, Garner Ted Waffendoodle, Generalfeldmarshal Roderick C Gestapo, a few leading Waffen-SS, Sturm-member Leuten. und viela kindercorp? Until we weren't?
ReplyDeleteDennis, did they use your divorce and live-in on you as a pretext for no severance and no retirement?
DeleteBB
Funny I heard more lies in LCG than I have outside of it. You don't need to play Church in order to be an honest/moral person. If the only reason why you're being honest/moral/"good" is because you want a spot in "the kingdom" or to look good to other people are you really that honest/moral???
ReplyDeleteDennis I also think Gerald was taking a swipe at you. You are one of the most honest people I have ever talked to. I am sure it shocks some people to know you were not perfect—back then or even now. To bad you or me cannot be righteous like Gerald or RCM. Very few on here know the narrow road a minister in WCG had to walk. There is no one you can open up to or discuss your own personal problems. Like you said you have to wear a mask. When you were going through your deep depression did anyone from HQ try to help you? I know the answer already. I know it is a lonely road at times. But you are at peace with yourself. Let the ministers at LCG keep wearing their masks. I know it irks LCG to know many members read this blog. Good on Gary, BB, you and all the others who write and tell it like it is. I told you I don’t always agree with your point of view—-but I do read what you say and often find you are right. I used to be a bible reader now I am learning to study what I read. Hope you have a great weekend.
ReplyDeleteJim—Az
Not everybody on this blog is a hater or full of BS. Just some of them. But you get that everywhere, even in the church. Remember the Tkaches?
ReplyDeleteThe term "hate speech" is usually used to discredit information that someone just doesn't want you to read because it exposes them. It is a weak argument. In fact it is not an argument at all. It's what people say when they have no valid argument.
ReplyDeleteTo a point, 1:32, to a point. I would agree with you that the phrase is overused, but hate speech does exist, as well as evil systems and philosophies. There are actually some people who should be marginalized, quarantined, or ignominiously defeated, so that the majority of peaceful, benign people can survive, prosper, and raise good families.
DeleteAs for Banned, we often confine ourselves to the intelligent repudiation of doctrines, theories, paradigms, ideals, and the evil that men do, but sometimes, prominent people in the Armstrong movement are just such ridiculous or evil caricatures of a human that an ad hominem is bound to squeak through. But, it is never as excessive as some of the “markings” we’ve all heard from the pulpit.
BB
If his WIFE cannot trust him then why should we?
ReplyDeleteIf the judgment of women is infallible why don't they ordain some women?
Gerald Weston should be the last one saying that someone's wife does not trust him as criticism as his marriage to Carolyn looks like a business arrangement from those who did not view the ministry of the Lucifer Camp of Gehenna (LCG) as Jesus lite. His time spent up here in Canada and mainly at the Mississauga congregation was as far as I am concern, disgusting in how he treated people and micromanage their lives (he did it selectively too). Those who are loyal to the "church," their improper conducts were overlook while those who questioned things were clamp down upon by the "leadership." More like dictators.
ReplyDeleteThis is the guy who never cared about poor brethren eating only a few fruits for lunch during the feast of tabernacles in Quebec Magog and when asked by a brethren about it, his only response was "this is terrible, someone should do something about it." Interesting since he and the other evangelists makes more then enough to help with someone's lunch but he expects other to help. This is the guy who knew that a brethren, Steve, was mentally unstable but was more concern about getting information from him about a former brethren who left (Noah) because Noah was posting bad stuff about LCG on facebook and he was a youth as well who had connections with other youth. He never cared about Steve who had mental health issues and who eventually ended up in the hospital.
This is the guy, the mighty blessed minister of God who needed to call the cop on me because he felt like I threatened him by e-mail. I basically laughed at the police. I knew he was just doing his job but I told him in no uncertain terms that Gerald got nothing on me. If he did, he would have taken me to court already given how much of a scumbag he is. He continued to sent me literatures even though I requested him to stop and so, I ended up calling that same police (got his name and badge number) to tell the Canadian headquarters to stop sending me literatures (Which they did stop after I called the police on them). Big bad secure Vladimir Weston unable to deal with a twenty four year old (at that time) young man. What a joke and this guy is now the presiding evangelist? Interfering with two young adults relationship because they were of different race/skin colour and even went through the parent. Talk about having no guts.
This is the guy who needed to go to the Toronto congregation to criticize someone from the pulpit who attended the Mississauga congregation. Those brethren did not know because they were not there to hear it. Cursing the deaf comes to mind. Also, to criticize from the pulpit when there is no opportunities for people to defend themselves is underhanded and cowardly.
I wrote some of this before but I have not been around for a while. I am honestly glad and happy to be out of LCG and to have move on.
Even if people believe in keeping all of the stuff that LCG teaches, I honestly cannot understand why they take any of these guys seriously. They are nothing but thugs. Their entire organization is like a form of the mafia. Its gives you a false sense of family and connection and purpose but in reality, they are nothing more then criminals. One that rob people of their very precious lives (time, relationships, emotional well being, etc.)
Apologize for some rough edges in my post and strong verbal condemnation. I usually try to restrain from that kind of talk as I do not find it productive but for someone like Gerald, my blood boil. Honestly, if LCG treated people better and if their group was more transparent, no one would try to get information from a blog. He has no one to blame but himself, his predecessor and his co-workers/fellow dictators.
No BB. My termination says " without cause"
ReplyDeleteGood. In my employment history, I’ve been written up twice that I know of, and fortunately neither had any more than a temporary effect. These sorts of things can be blown all out of proportion by people looking to do us harm.
DeleteBB
I ended up coming to Oregon , to get out of South Carolina where my Upstate NY self had always been uncomfortable having been sent there against my wishes. I am no southern boy and did not wish to die there. I also came here for a chance at a relationship but "alone again naturally" and feeing a bit stranded lol. I often think of the opening of Little Big Man, I think..."Grandfather...is this some kind of joke..." when the thought to be dead chief on the scaffold awoke and fell off, , rolled into a cave only to land on a bear! lol
ReplyDeleteOh, man! I just don’t understand this. Those Southern Rock guys, like Skynyrd, the Allman Brothers, the Outlaws, and Blackfoot had an affinity for and great followings in upstate New York, central Pennsylvania, and the rural areas of the Garden State (NJ) because those areas were similar in so many ways to the South, so there was always much identity in common!
DeleteHow could a Yankee boy from upstate New York not fit in down in South Carolina? In a way, though, I can almost understand. Self-identification vs the ways in which others define us can often become very complicated. For one thing, we tend to dislike the things we see in others that bother us about ourselves. And, some folks usually didn’t realize that they were rednecks or hippies until someone else hung those labels on ‘em. It blew me away years ago when a Pakistani millionnaire for whom I worked referred to me as his redneck. And I was quite surprised when one of my long-term customers recently told me she had always thought of me as an old California Hippie-Biker. Some stuff seems to shine through no matter how we attempt to refine and present ourselves to our public. And, of course there’s the stuff we aid and abet about ourselves. All of us are three in one: the way others see us, the way we see ourselves, and the way we really are. Disconnects are to be expected.
My youngest son has always been somewhat of an artist. When he was in kindergarten, I’d walked into his room to a horrid, pungent odor. He had put two 9 Volt batteries together in some way, and they had started to smoke. The next day in school, he had captured my reaction (I was in my atheist stage at that time). He drew a huge rough looking dude looking down towards a tiny nearly insignificant boy holding some batteries, cartoonist’s bubble by the big guy saying “Jesus Christ, Bobby!” His teacher explained that the distortion in our sizes indicated that he felt absolutely powerless. Fortunately, he has come into his own in stature, and has carried himself well in recent years. We should all be so fortunate in our personal growth.
BB
Is LCG presided over by Gerald Weston the church you want to be a member of? Is the true church only Sabbath keeping, holy day observation and tithing? A healthy church is sustained by shared interests and experiences, mutual concern, respect and love. If these strong natural bonds are lacking then the group held together by force, fear, insecurity or any combination. Without these natural bonds, a group or in this case the church turns its feelings on some imagined enemy, perhaps a members who disagrees with traditional teachings or the enemy outside—socialism, sexual immorality or any number of shortcomings of those outside the church. A healthy church is not threatened by honest differences. It can withstand honest differences. It can withstand the shock of a different opinion. In a neurotic church the balance is so delicate than any open disagreement may or will cause anger and resentment to anyone with opposing views. There is a desperate attempt with a preoccupation for a phasudo harmony. Inevitably a member comes to distrust his own feelings and perceptions. Either he hides his feelings or he believes he doesn’t see and feel what he thinks he sees and feels. He learns not to send out distress signals, or to recognize such signals from others. The church is happy happy, HAPPY! The church should be where a member learns true happiness, peace, and love. A member should learn from the leaders how to treat others. A members should learn how to be a light to others.
ReplyDeleteGerald should be thankful for this blog. He should reach out to those members who come here. Those members who feel abused, hurt, unappreciated. These people are expressing the feelings of their family. The family is dysfunctional. Instead of criticizing members for reading and commenting, Gerald needs to be a healing salve for his family. A healthy, loving, family does not worry about what others say. The church will never be healthy as long as the ministers and their buddies take the best of everything and leave the crumbs for the members.
Jim-Az
Dennis, you have to be lonely. I know what that's like, and I wish I could give you some secret to enable you to find a partner with common interests, etc. I found two mates through square dancing, and my current one is as perfect as I can imagine. Surely there is some interest you have with groups associated with it.. Keep checking and be determined. There are lots of other lonely people of the opposite sex. The tricky part is compatibility. I count myself fortunate.
ReplyDelete"When the Church gets off track - I say 'when' - IF the Church were to get off track, it’d be obvious, as it was before. When you start doing away with the Sabbath, and the Holy Days, and laws of clean and unclean meats, and the purpose of life, and go back into keeping Christmas, and Easter, and Halloween, and all the rest, that’s pretty obvious isn’t it? In fact, you didn’t have to go that far before it became obvious where the Church was going."
ReplyDeleteWeston obviously doesn't remember the first time "the church" got "off-track," back when HWA was sequestered away in Tucson. At the time, I never could figure out what he was doing back there, or why on earth he would let himself get mixed up with Ramona, who was so obviously there for the money. Now, of course, there's a hundred explanations.
The thing is, when he came back to Pasadena and started talking about how "the church" was so "off-track" and how he had to now get it back "on-track," I could never quite figure out what he was talking about. What "track" was this, that "the church," had ever been on to get off of? Had "the church" ever been on a track in the first place? If so, how did it get off of it? In retrospect, did it ever get back on it? If there was one thing about HWA's whole "track" business that it most certainly wasn't, obvious would be that thing.
And I'm not saying that immediately after this, when Tkach was handed the reigns, that he didn't immediately begin begin trying to mainstream it using dishonest and underhanded tactics, but I'm not sure if that was getting it off of a "track" or if that was getting it onto a "track." It's not like the mainstream christianities are any more or less of a con than the Armstrongist christianities.
If we think of WCG in terms of a get-rich-quick scheme, the Tkaches certainly did get it "off-track" for a spell. But over the last 20 years, Jr's gotten it back "on-track" because it's certainly made him rich, though perhaps not quite as quick as he'd hoped. If we think of the Armstrongist churches in terms of their published mission statements, not one has ever been "on-track," not even for a single day.
Dennis
ReplyDeleteIn George Orwells 1984, those that didn't hide and wear masks (based on Stalins purges) didn't live long. It's bad and dangerous advice to tell people to take off their masks in a toxic environment. In nature animals survive by hiding. Christ hid many of his beliefs from those around him. For example, He refused to answer the Pharisees question as to whether he was the Messiah before his time.
People have a right to hide.
Not forgetting, it's the Pharisees who were masters at mask wearing.
Telling people to take off their masks is the fox talking to the chickens.
Not to change the subject, but have any of the ACOGs noticed that Billy Graham has passed on?
ReplyDeleteBB
BB
ReplyDeleteReading the odd online article about Billy Graham, he seemed to have had a positive influence on society. Because of differences in theology, it's difficult for the ACOG leaders to comment. I don't expect to hear from them.
Byker Bob asked have any of the ACOGs noticed that Billy Graham has passed on?
ReplyDeleteThe only COG comment I noticed was from Bob Thiel, whose criticism was that he didn't preach or understand the Gospel, and that he had compromised with Rome.
I noticed a non-COG comment that claimed Billy Graham knew early in his career using the title Doctor would "open more doors".
GWeston near 59 minutes said: "...And I just have a question - I wanna present it to all of you: Is following, looking for information about the Church, following hate blogs, is that “thinking no evil” or expecting evil? I’ve never understood - I understand why sometimes people do find some of the hate blogs to find out [[follow]] what’s going on, what they’re saying about us and that sort of thing - I don’t, I really honestly don’t. Why don’t I?...Well, is that 1 Corinthians 13:5...or is that more Satan’s way, the ACCUSER of the brethren? We need to think about those things..."
ReplyDelete1 Cor 13:5 "Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;"
Gerald admits not understanding, that he never understood. Why not? Okay, we considered 1 Cor 13:5, but has Gerald ever considered the following?
"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me." Romans 7:20
That verse is in the Bible. The Apostle Paul thought about evil, and he knew it was present with himSELF, but Gerald? Does Gerald understand that? And that is talking about a LAW!
Evil isn't as far away as Gerald would have us believe, but he probably can't see it within himSELF, so GWeston comes off as somewhat SELF-Righteous.
Well, if Gerald reads this, or one of his followers pass this on to him, just how far is sin from GWeston? Gerald probably does not understand this either, but here come more of Paul's words for him:
Romans 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth IN me.
:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth IN me.
Gerald may be striving to get away from evil, but that sin? Sin just seems to happen, but it exists...almost like it was some sort of a law too, at least in this present evil world (I John 3:8; Gal 1:4).
I suppose that it is nice that Gerald is striving to help people avoid evil (and sin too?), but it is unavoidable for now. It is just all a part of life for all of us, but Gerald does not have to come/go to what he considers to be hate blogs and gossip columns to find evil associated with himSELF or his "living" group, b/c evil is a lot closer to him and his "living" group than he currently realizes...unless Gerald and those of his "living" group want to turn a blind eye to Paul's (and John's of I John 3) words.
One may thinketh no evil, but it's all around us, even within, if one has the eyes to see, the ears to hear and the mind to perceive.
Time will tell...
John
P.S. Yes, I'm caught up in evil too..just like Job was: "When I looked for good, then evil came unto me: and when I waited for light, there came darkness." Job 30:26
Hate blogs?
ReplyDeleteWhy not hate religion, courtesy of the LCG and their Klansman types.
Gerald is RIGHT to point out that some of the "hate blogs" are full of crap. Notice the latest LCG news from James Malm:
ReplyDelete25 Feb: By Sep 2017 LCG magazine circulation had plunged from 417,000 to 293,000. They have now discontinued announcing circulation figures.
The March-April 2018 Tomorrow's World magazine lists on page 4 a circulation of 257,000. They have not discontinued announcing circulation figures. So, where does Malm get the 417,000? The highest circulation ever claimed for the Tomorrow's World magazine was 539,000 in March-April 2016 . In just two years, Tomorrow's World has lost more than half of its circulation!
I think Weston is acting in a rational way. He has a point of view and he is defending it. One way he does this is to attack his critics. How are we to fault him for his methodology? We see this in the news media and among our political leaders all the time.
ReplyDeleteTo put the methodology in simple terms: If you are a salesman marketing a product you are driven to stanch the flow of negative testimony as much as possible with fact or fiction.
Where he may be faulted is not in his methodology but in the content of the product he is marketing. Here we arrive at a product called Armstrongism with all of its effects.
Armstrongism is not so much a theology as a religious product designed to be marketed. Its concepts can be encompassed in a collection of small booklets. It was packaged by an advertising salesman sitting in a public library in Des Moines and channeling Ellen G. White and William Miller by way of the Millerite Church of God Seventh Day - in general, a mélange of heresies. There is nothing mysterious or profound about the origin of Armstrongism. In this content is where the problem resides.
Just saying ... there is a distinction between content and methodology.
844. I was only noting we all wear masks not we all should remove them. I'd personally be authentic to me at this point in life. I have not found myself to be any better or any worse than the thousands I have known over 50 years.
ReplyDeleteI've mentioned here before that the ACOGs are gangs. Here's a definition I've just come across.
ReplyDelete"Here’s how one author defines a gang: “a loosely organized group of individuals who collaborate together for social reasons.” “Social” in the deepest psychological, even epistemological sense – using each other, in a way, to determine what reality and ethics are; as opposed to using their own individual minds, and their faculties of reason, for assessing what reality is.
As one gang expert points out, “You must remember that (individual gang members) believe everything the gang tells them.”
It is my experience that the very top elite and their ministry cronies are the ones fuelling many of the hate blogs. I wouldn't call them hate blogs but truth blogs. Truth hurts and it hurts the ministry which doesn't say much about them being allegedly God ordained. but they have no one to blame but themselves.
ReplyDeleteIf you dig deep enough and use wisdom you realize these so called hate blogs have emerged through the endless COG split wars. Each side sends out their cronies including their own wives to put their side of the war story out there. Cronies are rewarded with power for attacking the other side.
Why doesn't Gerald call out the secret ministerial websites which has fuelled much of the doctrine wars. It started within the ministry and Gerald should start there first.
@ 7:27 AM
ReplyDeleteMalm has already edited his blog to remove his February 25 falsehood. So much for his "inside sources." Malm is just another vulture circling this blog for "news" he can scavenge and twist to preserve his reputation as an insider.
Anon 1014 wrote ... truth blogs. Truth hurts ...
ReplyDeleteIf someone on a blog points out an error in a COG, the person may be called an accuser of the brethren; when a COG member does it, the member may be disfellowshipped, or get disgruntled over the COG not listening, and leave ... and possibly will create a new COG...
This blog is a threat to LCG top brass because it has the potential to vaccinate LCG members with something called critical thinking. We all know LCG works very hard to get their members to shutdown their minds. These are things I heard leaders say from the pulpit while in LCG..."be loyal to your leaders,submit to your leaders, don't criticize God's ministers he worked and tested again and again or you'll never get in God's kingdom, don't go on the internet and look for negative things about the church... The list can go on, they were masters of brainwashing and control of information and the internet age is kicking them in the behind.
ReplyDeleteDavid Koresh, Herbert's Millerite brother, really had the key to controlling people.
ReplyDeleteHe exerted control far better than Herbert and his minions did. He cast himself as a Messiah that would return from death in the manner of Christ's Second Coming. And he told his followers that if they did not believe in his cockeyed doctrine of the Seven Seals, they would pay for it when he returned. A blatant threat.
So effectively he is able to threaten people from the grave. Even though he is dead, his followers continue to be afraid of him.
It is surprising that Herbert never thought of this Branch Davidian ploy. He said, with great and odd presumption, something about working directly under Abraham or some such thing in the Kingdom of God. He seemed to have his post already
picked out somehow - based on what, I don't know. A little embarrassing.
Think of the great fear that would be on all the present day Armstrongists if they believed that Herbert, like brother Vernon Howell, was going to return with a "rod of iron."
The opinions of the members, as it was in the days of yore, are based on what each member knows or does not know. If you don’t know about corruption, or about pastoral malpractice, fiduciary malfeasance, and disciplinary mistakes or excesses, what are you going to do? If you have no knowledge of such things, you believe you are being honest when you deny them. Members of the old WCG who thought of themselves as having the proper attitude always erred on the side of the WCG. This is true of all committed team players. Most likely, unless we have some of the evil-doers posting here anonymously, all the members who are expressing their opinions are telling what they believe to be the truth. And, it varies widely.
ReplyDeleteBB
Byker Bob said, "Not to change the subject, but have any of the ACOGs noticed that Billy Graham has passed on?"
ReplyDeleteMY COMMENT - I have been waiting for someone on this blog to make note of Billy Graham's passing. In 1960s Washington D.C. WCG, our Pastor Ken Westby informed us that Mrs. Graham was a Plain Truth subscriber and listened to the World Tomorrow Broadcast. I guess this was the Church's way of saying Billy Graham was aware of "the Work".
Putting doctrine aside and given that Graham was a mass preaching and reaching contemporary of Herbert and Garner Ted Armstrong, it is now easy to see which ministry had a wider impact. Plus, unlike the Armstrongs, there was never any hint of any sexual or financial malfeasance scandals in the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association. Squeaky clean describes Billy Graham. Garner Ted mimicked Graham late in his ministry by creating his own Evangelistic Association. For Garner Ted, however, he had been kicked out of 2 Churches for his sexual immorality so it was more of an insurance policy when he created his Association.
Of course, Billy Graham was a fake Christian in the eyes of the all knowing and all Judgmental self-righteous Churches of God. Graham preached a counterfeit gospel about Christ as is the worldview of God's Elect in the one and only True Church - the Philadelphia remnant of the Worldwide Church of God under God's Twentieth Century End Time Apostle Herbert W. Armstrong. i agree with anonymous 12:11 AM. Because of differences in theology, it's difficult for the ACOG leaders to comment.
Richard
Richard, for me, Billy Graham represented the road not taken by my parents. They started watching (yes, HWA was then in his first attempt at television) both in 1956. They chose HWA because they bought into his contention that he had the truth about the sabbath. That was supposed to open the door to God granting true understanding, particularly regarding HWA’s “hook”, prophecy and us being in the end times. I have no idea how it would have affected my life if the parental units had selected BG, but I will say that his teachings were consistent with what had made my family such a wonderful nurturing group prior to the HWAcaca.
DeleteNow, of course, we can clearly distinguish between the two “competitors”. We see one empire in decay with much debauchery and division having occurred, and another in which the principal was never ashamed of Jesus Christ, and never suffered any sort of moral failure. Obviously, this will go over the heads of the handful of stalwarts in the various ACOG splinters, and many whom HWA caused to become atheists won’t even care, but Billy Graham appears to have been the real deal, if we apply Christian standards to both mens’ lives.
Oh boy! Nck will have a field day with this one!
BB
To Connie:
ReplyDeleteYou said Dennis and I may disagree greatly about the validity of God, and the Bible, however, his insights into some of the cast of characters is indeed valuable and helpful.
I had to chuckle at this. For the longest time your profile pic on this blog was that of a porn star, until someone pointed it out. Dennis, who has used his real pic forever, has a lot more credibility just on that fact alone.
The 2 things I appreciate most about Dennis are his courage and his desire to be authentic. Those are exceedingly rare qualities. Dennis, whether he realizes it or not, kept me from blowing my brains out. And that is no exaggeration. It took someone with his qualities to help, someone who understood what I -- and many other COG refugees -- go through, and also with an ability to explain in very plain terms, using basic critical thinking, why the bible cannot be taken literally.
I owe a lot to Dennis. And I suspect many others do too. Thank you Dennis.
Anon February 25, 2018 at 2:33 PM,
ReplyDeletePowerful testimony. So many of us have had those thoughts before we left. Funny when you think about it. A church which should give hope to human beings, instead causes them to despair to such a extent that they have thoughts of murdering themselves. And God is behind this???
Bullshit. They are the other guys church.
Anon 2:33 PM wrote:
ReplyDeleteDennis, whether he realizes it or not, kept me from blowing my brains out.
We can only wish that Phillip Apartian had had access to this blog or something like it. We can only wish that Karl Beyersdorfer had had access to this blog or something like it.
What might have happened if Terry Ratzmann had read the "hate blogs" and understood his anger and sadness, instead of discharging it into the Brookfield congregation before ending his own life?
How many other tragic accidents in the ACOGs are secret suicides (or attempts)? The young man who drove his ATV into danger he could not escape? The kid who was "cleaning" his shotgun when it went off and blew off most of his face? Then there are the suicides we know about, such as the PCG members despondent over losing loved ones to the "no contact" ruling.
Sometimes some of us here give Dennis a hard time because he has his particular blind spots and neuroses that color how he presents himself and his ideas on this blog. But don't we all have our own versions of that? I'm not saying that we shouldn't rein Dennis in when he goes off on too wild of a tangent, but I am saying that he should never forget how much we appreciate him, even when we may roll our eyes at a particular post or comment. Dennis is healing, as are many of us. The difference is that Dennis is helping us heal by exposing us to his journey. That's something for which we should all be grateful, even if AstroTheology doesn't excite us in the least.
Hello BB
ReplyDeleteA field day? In my area BG had the occasional stadium filled, not so impactful in lasting terms.
BG was bigger than HWA in access american domestic political leaders and some cultural symbiosis was present.
Where I am at Chrystal Cathedral was perceived as "closer to home". Schuller was the World Tomorrow rival in the 1980-1990 period.
In money terms no media ministry rivalled wcg. Not even vandeman.
Unless you would argue wcg was a church. Whereas i would argue for a movement or evangelistic media ministry.
Much of Grahams "firts" attributed to him were pioneered by HWA. Like China diplomacy.
Nck
I liked Graham since 1) he was so distinctly authentically "different". Like black baptist churches. So different from wcg culture that they were not competing at all in market terms.
ReplyDelete2) Graham was in a sense a reminder of the "old" fundamentalist tent meetings. To me a reminder of wcg's start as a little flock among the fundamentalist revivalists hwa speaks about in the 1st chapters of his biography. The times of john boy walton.
Franklin had problems in the past I learned. Most sons of great speakers have that. Their fathers know the crowd. But one person is vastly different from a crowd.
Nck
In the video. Gerald Weston claims that people should follow the practice of "thinking no evil" when evaluating the LCG.
ReplyDeleteHowever, Weston and his cohorts' main thing is precisely the opposite.
They think and assign evil toward any views that they don't preach or believe.
Lots of reasons to not be enamored with Graham.
ReplyDeleteHere's something from the Nixon tapes-
James Warren in the Chicago Tribune, who has filed excellent stories down the years on Nixon’s tapes, in this 1972 Oval Office session between Nixon, Haldeman and Graham, the President raises a topic about which “we can’t talk about it publicly,” namely Jewish influence in Hollywood and the media.
Nixon cites Paul Keyes, a political conservative who was executive producer of the NBC hit, “Rowan and Martin’s Laugh-In,” as telling him that “11 of the 12 writers are Jewish.”
“That right?” says Graham, prompting Nixon to claim that Life magazine, Newsweek, the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, and others, are “totally dominated by the Jews.”
Nixon says network TV anchors Howard K. Smith, David Brinkley and Walter Cronkite “front men who may not be of that persuasion,” but that their writers are “95 percent Jewish.”
“This stranglehold has got to be broken or the country’s going down the drain,” the nation’s best-known preacher declares.
“You believe that?” Nixon says.
“Yes, sir,” Graham says.
“Oh, boy,” replies Nixon.
“So do I. I can’t ever say that but I believe it.”
“No, but if you get elected a second time, then we might be able to do something,” Graham replies.
Magnanimously Nixon concedes that this does not mean “that all the Jews are bad,” but that most are left-wing radicals who want “peace at any price except where support for Israel is concerned. The best Jews are actually the Israeli Jews.”
“That’s right,” agrees Graham, who later concurs with a Nixon assertion that a “powerful bloc” of Jews confronts Nixon in the media.
“And they’re the ones putting out the pornographic stuff,” Graham adds.
Later Graham says that “a lot of the Jews are great friends of mine. They swarm around me and are friendly to me. Because they know I am friendly to Israel and so forth. They don’t know how I really feel about what they’re doing to this country.”
After Graham’s departure Nixon says to Haldeman, “You know it was good we got this point about the Jews across.”
“It’s a shocking point,” Haldeman replies.
“Well,” says Nixon, “It’s also, the Jews are irreligious, atheistic, immoral bunch of bastards.”
11.54 AM
ReplyDeleteWhile the conversation is not politically correct by today's standards, I don't think it was immoral. Richard Nixon said no to all the anti family legislation of his day, which is why he is still respected by many, and hated by the forces of evil. The quotes above can be very misleading to younger people who would not be aware of the political moral climate of that period.
PS both Star Treks actors Mr Spock and Captain Kirk are both Jewish. They most certainly do dominate Hollywood.
Anon at February 25, 2018 at 2:33 PM,
ReplyDeleteFirstly, I am glad that Dennis's words made you think again about harming or killing yourself.
Secondly, Connie's attire (sleeveless top shown last year or whenever it was) was simply a sleeveless top that many women wear when the temps are warm was simply that- a sleeveless top. Nothing more and nothing less, and certainly nothing pornographic.
Thirdly, there's nothing to be ashamed of in asking for help of any type, and if you can't afford a particular counselor, most are more than happy to point you to a more affordable source of help.
Please understand that many of us who were once in HWA's church have benefited from some counseling now and then.
Even the best of folks can get a bit off after dealing with organizations like the WCG or LCG.
No, not the attire. The userpic was copied from an internet user who goes by "princess blueyez" and is featured in multiple porn stills/videos on the internet. That's what the commenter was referring to. Unless Connie and PBE are one and the same, which is doubtful.
DeleteHighly illogical.
ReplyDeleteNeither I nor my Captain ever dominated Hollywood, although there were parts of both Rigel 9 and Earth where our Jew asses were liked.
Live long and prosper,
Spock