Just prior to starting his Restored Church of God David C Pack reassured the brethren...
Recorded on December 12, 1998 at the onset of the Global/Living
Split, a full year and approximately five months before the Restored Church of God. The
sermon was titled: "10 Points for the Crisis". There were hundreds of copies of this tape
Split, a full year and approximately five months before the Restored Church of God. The
sermon was titled: "10 Points for the Crisis". There were hundreds of copies of this tape
"I want to make a statement about...me...now, if I became deceived, I will never tell you what I'm going to tell you now...I am telling you if I go off into strange ideas, misconduct, rebellion, you name it, *(Badly failed exegesis? Flawed Christology? Jesus visit to Wadsworth? All things common?) don't follow me. I want to tell you that now, because if I start doing that I'm gonna try to get you to follow me! I'm gonna come to you and tell you it doesn't apply, it doesn't mean me, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's OK to follow me because ABCD and XY and Z. Do you understand what I'm saying? Listen to me now, when I tell you don't follow me if I go off into weird ideas, or if I get off into other things that are total absolutely unscriptural conduct, because if I do I'm gonna paint it with a different face and try to get you to follow me. Do you understand what I'm saying brethren? Please remember that, because I promise you that if I become deceived, I'll forget it, and I'll want you to forget it...And I hope you'll remember it well enough to quote it right back to me... *(Will do) But I'll tell you what, I'm not going anywhere."
*(But you did)
*me
Hey Dave! Guess what!
ReplyDeleteYou're Deceived!
Well then why is anyone in his group still following him? What does one have to do to have members believe someone has gone off the deep end?
ReplyDeleteRCM told how HWA made a similar statement when he was an AC student. HWA said that if he went astray, everyone in the class would probably follow him blindly in error.
ReplyDeleteRCM said when he raised his hand, HWA responded, Rod, I know you wouldn't...
What Dave is telling his tithe slaves is that he has a disposition to go off the handle. It is a warning to them as to what he is capable of.
ReplyDeleteAnother way of saying it:
The man is giving a warning as to possible changes in his mental health. Will his 'ministers' take him to task? Not a chance. They are hirelings. It is up to his members to do their due diligence as to what he says and what he teaches.
_________________________________________________________________
In my humble opinion, Dave knows he has a problem and is incapable of changing it. To do so would take many visits to a mental health counselor. If he ever does go WAY off the rails we have another possible Waco situation.
Dumbhead said...
ReplyDeleteWell then why is anyone in his group still following him? What does one have to do to have members believe someone has gone off the deep end? "
Dave will have to die. Some say Dave is "incredibly intelligent" (I think it was Dave who said that maybe:) I used to think he was merely clever as intelligence is generally connected to being correct about important things and up to date and open to the information available on the topic. It is also means one is well read. I don't get the impression Dave is well read, unless his own booklets count.
Dave is mistaken about just about everything that comes out of his mouth. Since he is neither intelligent, nor clever he must simply be delusional and living in an alternative theological, yet not actually Bible based, reality. "All not good" as Dave would say.
David Pack looks sick. Don't you think he looks sick ?
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that members ditch their God given responsibility to think for themselves and prove all things. Dave Packman and other cult leaders cash in on this default. Exploiting chinks in peoples mental make up is so despicable.
ReplyDeleteWhen the leaders of the Church encourage members to prove all things, they assume that in doing so they will come to the same conclusions the leaders of the church prefer and have come to themselves
ReplyDeleteI think Dave is just playing with their minds. I think he is a psychopath. I think he gets a perverse sense of satisfaction out of how he can tell them one thing at one time and a completely different thing a while later and they still keep following him. I don't think money is his main goal because he probably has enough stashed away to last him the rest of his life. I think he does it for the sense of power he gets over people, and being the center of attention.
ReplyDeleteOnly once in the NT do we see the locals challenging someone who claimed to be an Apostle, but they found to be unacceptable as the real thing, whatever that means.
ReplyDeleteRevelation 2:2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false."
Too bad some names of just who the false Apostles were weren't mentioned but, and as you must know by now from my lack of love for the "Apostle Paul", it is not uncommon to think that the Ephesian Church members rejected Paul. The Ephesian Church and those of Revelation were not as Gentile as one might think. The Book of Revelation is basically a Jewish/Christian book. (Long story)
Paul himself did say that "You know that EVERYONE in the province of Asia has deserted me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes." II Tim 1:15 The Ephesian Church in Revelation was in Asia and EVERYONE is a lot of people. Sounds like Paul lost his key men as well for some reason, in Ephesus. The Apostle Paul was the 13 Apostle evidently and not included in the Book of Revelations , 21:14 , list of the 12. Mathias had replaced Judas so there is no room for Paul.
Also, no one seems to know just who ordained Paul and Apostle. Of the 22 times his apostleship is mentioned in the NT, all but two are Paul telling everyone he is one. The other 2 are Luke, Paul's bio guy saying it. It seems to have escaped the 12. Paul goes to a lot of trouble in scripture to compare himself to the other apostles. "Are they Apostles? So am I"
" I Cor 9:9 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? 2 Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord." Again , Paul admits "others" don't think so but his followers do.
Paul never saw Jesus in his Gospel Ministry. Even though Paul was supposedly in Jerusalem as "a Pharisee of the Pharisees" the Gospels never heard of him and he was certainly NOT persecuting Jesus with the Pharisees as we often see in the Gospels. Of course the Gospels were written AFTER Paul was dead. Paul only "saw the Lord" in visions. The word can also mean "Have I not EXPERIENCED the Lord?" as opposed to have seen or been with him literally as the accepted Apostles. Word play
We see this kind of self ordination today in Flurry, Pack and Weinland who simply concluded because they view themselves as important guys in their competing truths, they must be Apostles or "one sent." They sent themselves. Bob Thiel sent himself too evidently though he tries so hard to find others who helped send him in dreams and anointings double.
Be nice to see a church of God congregation vote their crazy minister types out. Never gonna happen though.
So:
Paul to the Ephesians: "I am an Apostle"
Ephesians: "No you aren't"
Revelation Jesus: "Good Job"
:)
Be nice to see a church of God congregation vote their crazy minister types out. Never gonna happen though.
ReplyDeleteGlobal Church of God voted Rod Meredith out.
80% of the GCG members, and almost that percentage of the ministry, turned around and formed a new church, LCG, with none of the collegial governance that had let GCG vote RCM out.
For all of this board's dumping on Dave Pack, Rod Meredith, Ron Weinland, and others, we really need to face one sobering fact: these men are enabled by members, who are in a co-dependent relationship with their abusive crazy ministers.
For all of this board's dumping on Dave Pack, Rod Meredith, Ron Weinland, and others, we really need to face one sobering fact: these men are enabled by members, who are in a co-dependent relationship with their abusive crazy ministers.
ReplyDeleteThat is absolutely a sobering fact.
And even sadder. It is true that so many of those members have become SO co-dependant that the very idea of living life "on their own" without their "parental minister" is enough to scare them of that unknown that they'd rather life live under the shade of abuse then try to go it alone. At least in Armstrongism, even though it's a crazy messed up, uber-controlled and super messed up roller-coaster, it seems more stable then the alternative. This is how much the Armstrong ministers have messed up so many of their lives.
The members DO enable the ministers. But that is because the ministers KNOWINGLY brainwash the members cunningly and convincingly enough to continue the mindset that the members have to enable the ministers, or their very eternal life is in jeopardy, and they can't make it without them. It is a vicious circle that goes over and over and over again.
This is one reason of many it is simply not easy for them to leave. Their WHOLE LIFE is in the religion. Their friends, their family, their pastoral parents are all wrapped up. If they leave, they are shunned by family, friends, everyone. They feel abandoned and lost that if they are forced out some beg to go back to the abusers thinking it's the right and only thing to do. It's a very complicated, very stressful, agonizing thing for them either inside or outside. It is the very definition of bondage in chains. And some feel it is easier for all parties involved to just grin and bear it than face the agony of breaking the bondage and cutting the chains of the abuse.
For those of Christian faith, this encouraging word may help you in your time in prayer about this very difficult situation. It's Psalm 30 which states:
I will exalt you, Lord,
for you lifted me out of the depths
and did not let my enemies gloat over me.
2
Lord my God, I called to you for help,
and you healed me.
3
You, Lord, brought me up from the realm of the dead;
you spared me from going down to the pit.
4
Sing the praises of the Lord, you his faithful people;
praise his holy name.
5
For his anger lasts only a moment,
but his favor lasts a lifetime;
weeping may stay for the night,
but rejoicing comes in the morning. (NIV)
6:24 DD says
ReplyDelete"The Book of Revelation is basically a Jewish/Christian book"
Revelation Jesus: "Good Job"
Are you thinking it is Paul being praised by "Jesus"? The one who allowed meat sacrificed to idols, offending conservative Jewish converts.
8.53 PM
ReplyDeleteSo true, but unfortunately it goes beyond ordinary brainwashing. The ministers tear down and cripple members minds to maintain power and superiority. This is a evil ploy used in some toxic households.
6:24 DD says
ReplyDelete"The Book of Revelation is basically a Jewish/Christian book"
Revelation Jesus: "Good Job"
Are you thinking it is Paul being praised by "Jesus"? The one who allowed meat sacrificed to idols, offending conservative Jewish converts.
No, perhaps I made it unclear. Should read better "Jesus to Ephesians: Good Job"
Correct that inspite of Paul agreeing to teach the Noahide Laws for Gentiles to become Christians just as they originally were for Gentiles who wanted to become Jewish, Paul dumped them when convenient as we see in I Cor 8 and 10. Acts, written by Paul's champion Luke, makes every effort to make it seem as if Paul was closer to the Jerusalem Apostles than he really was. Acts is Pauline propaganda.
One of the chief characteristics of Armstrongite fragment churches is their propensity to give rise to more fragments endlessly. What is the process? We have all watched this fragmentation occur. No doubt it will continue to happen.
ReplyDeleteI believe this is all ego driven in the following way:
1. Someone in a congregation will fancy himself to be a leader, some great one. An ego trip.
2. The putative leader will gather to himself followers who wish to be a part of the small, exlusive, one and only true church - the keeper of crypto-gnostic, Millerite knowledge. Also an ego trip.
Because of this embedded dynamic, these churches will continue to split and split and split - like a nuclear chain reaction. This is a strange Millerite pathology. It is almost never found at this level of granularity and this degree of energy in much larger Christian denominations. If the Methodists split it would be news, if one of the Armstrongite fragments were to split, we would all yawn.
The additional dynamic is the use of techniques of mind control. It seems like all these putative leaders use this methodology very adeptly. Yet, they have no formal training in the psychology of mind control. But neither did Victor Houteff and David Koresh.
To say "if I ever veer off the track, don't follow me" is a very glib and slick method of establishing the speaker's credentials as a faithful and dedicated servant of God. But the history of how these leaders became leaders should always give their followers pause. By their fruits, you shall know them. But also by their history.
It seems to me that an evolutionary process is going on among these fragment churches. There is mutation, competition and natural selection. Among the many fragments, the fittest will survive but the survivors will continue to fragment because of the dynamics already cited so unity will never be achieved.
Evolution, a concept that most of these fragments would regard as evil, is what governs their development.
Note: I recall that Herman Hoeh believed that evolution was a factor in the history of life on earth. He believed that the Dark Side ruled this earth, were supposed to manage its flora and fauna but forsook its responsibility. Instead, the Dark Side lazily let the management of flora and faunt coast under the direction of natural selection. In other words, the concept of evolution was developed by the Dark side and a prominent feature was selfish competition. I can't tell you where I heard/read this. Someone should write this down. All the oral knowledge is vanishing. We now have younger Armstrongists who show up on this blog who do not even know what their denomination used to believe but now think, like holocaust deniers, that it is all made up - they could never belong to an organization so loony.
NEO- Herman Hoeh said a lot of bizarre stuff. Someone told me about Hoeh describing an "encounter" with a demon possessed man, and then driving him to a park to "interview" the demon. Hoeh actually told this at a FOT site in the Ozarks, and it was also reported in the old Ambassador Report.
ReplyDeleteApparently , Hoeh asked the demon why did they rebel. The answer was that they were previously required to trust God that his ways work without evidence, in effect by faith. They rebelled so that they could create any type of alternative reality so that they then had a "contrasting" reality that could then be used to measure the differences between the two methodology. Sort of like a double blind experiment.
Why Hoeh did not bannish the demon, or cast him out was not explained, nor , that Hoeh was (in effect) practicing witchcraft and encouraging the activities of demonism.
In the original PT autobiography of HWA, (removed from later book versions) is the episode of Hoeh being groomed by a female teacher at AC from India (non member) who was apparently trying to seduce Hoeh into some kind of Indian demonic mysticism. Strange stuff.
Again, I find Jerry Lewis' "nutty professor" stuff of more validity and sense than anything Herman Hoeh did or produced. He was as kooky to the Armstrong inner circle, as Hess was to Hitlers.
"He believed that the Dark Side ruled this earth, were supposed to manage its flora and fauna but forsook its responsibility. Instead, the Dark Side lazily let the management of flora and faunt coast under the direction of natural selection. In other words, the concept of evolution was developed by the Dark side and a prominent feature was selfish competition. I can't tell you where I heard/read this."
ReplyDeleteI don't think this was the teaching. "the spirit of competition was immediately tuned into the spirit of man since the created being satan is the current leader of this earth and society".
This fauna thing is in line with your logic that god is a directive god though.
wcg used to teach that in the wtm god would direct the lion to become a vegetarian. re isaiah
nck
DennisCDiehl said...7:18
ReplyDelete"..Paul dumped them [Torah rules] when convenient as we see in I Cor 8 and 10. Acts, written by Paul's champion Luke, makes every effort to make it seem as if Paul was closer to the Jerusalem Apostles than he really was."
Yeah, was he really an Apostle, or a character who hijacked the Jesus movement - kind of like the way Pat Boone would discover obscure Rhythm & Blues songs and do cover versions for a larger market?!
If we could uncover the real history of Paul of Tarsus, we could solve the mystery of Christian origins.
DD: "Acts is Pauline propaganda"
And the (later) Gospels are anti-Pauline. Nevertheless orthodox christianity would eventually accept Gospels, Acts, Paul, James, Peter, Revelation..
Much later Millerism/Adventism/Armstrongism would also (of course) accept this bundled - yet incompatible - canon. And this would be their undoing: All one has to do is use Paul - Galatians, Colossians - to explode their worldview.
NEO said "We now have younger Armstrongists who show up on this blog who do not even know what their denomination used to believe but now think, like holocaust deniers, that it is all made up - they could never belong to an organization so loony."
ReplyDeleteKind of a side point, but that's a really important point, what they "used to believe". Because that implies that the denomination no longer believes some of things.
The old-timers on this blog comment with their experience, which is certainly valuable. But it is also centered around the beliefs that were extant during their time in WCG. And we all know how often official WCG teachings changed!
With the exception of the craziest offshoots like PCG, RCG, CCG, etc., the more moderate splinters I've experienced aren't really like the WCG of old. A lot has changed in belief and practice. Sure, there are still some lingering ideas like BI, the one true church, etc. But the more draconian policies are harder to find.
That's why it's a lot harder for younger members to believe that these things are a part of our history. There's plenty of information available online, but they don't really have an inclination to go looking for it. "Who was HWA? What did WCG believe? Don't know, don't care. These things don't really affect my life now."
Things have changed a lot since 1972, 1975, 1995...
Selfish competition is a feature of all social systems, no matter how egalitarian. It just takes different forms depending on the society. Those who condemn competition are rigging the rules to their advantage. They don't want others to compete in order to give themselves a competative advantage. It's another case of the fox talking to the chickens.
ReplyDeleteAnon 1051 You got it... :)
ReplyDeleteDennis Diehl said: "When the leaders of the Church encourage members to prove all things, they assume that in doing so they will come to the same conclusions the leaders of the church prefer and have come to themselves".
ReplyDeleteThat would be only true before a said person became a member at baptism. HWA, Dave Pack and others taught/teach that prove all things is off the table once one becomes a member of the church.
I have forgotten and may be mistaken, but I think both the baptismal commitment and ministerial commitment were unto the church (Body of Christ) solely. And under those terms the member and minister alike followed those above them in the hierarchical church government. So when leaders get off track and get themselves entangled into many falsehoods, most of the membership and ministry continue to follow their commitment.
It makes one wonder if this is what Paul encountered with the Galatian church. Were the members of Galatia just following along with their minister or leader who was teaching another gospel? Paul said that he marveled - marveled how quickly they had converted unto another gospel.
The breeding ground for someone to come that is worse than any leader now is very fertile, and that breeding ground is many well trained non-questioning followers.
Dennis says, "Also, no one seems to know just who ordained Paul and Apostle. Of the 22 times his apostleship is mentioned in the NT, all but two are Paul telling everyone he is one. The other 2 are Luke, Paul's bio guy saying it."
ReplyDeleteActs 9:15-16 responds with - "But the Lord said unto him [Ananias], Go thy way: for he [Saul/Paul] is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake."
Although these verses are not Luke's commentary or opinion but are cited as the Lord's words to Ananias, I suppose those who share Dennis's opinion that Acts is merely Pauline propaganda will simply disregard these verses as more propaganda.