One of the Church of God's biggest self-absorbed false prophets claims that the U.S. Government is actively monitoring him and his website. His message is supposedly so mind-boggling that the government is getting really really upset with him.
Do you think the USA is the land of the free and home of the brave?
I have contended for years it has become the land of the regulated and home of the politically correct.
The so-called Patriot Act eliminated pretty much all actual privacy rights in the USA.
The USA, which has long prided itself on being the bastion of free speech in the world, is becoming like nations it has criticized related to free speech.While it is a well-known fact that the government has stuck its nose into many things in citizens rights, the idea that the government is monitoring Bitter Bob because he believes in the millennium is beyond silly. According to the Fake News False Prophet, because he uses the Internet the government is actively monitoring his words and teachings. Also, because the improperly named "continuing" Church of God claims to be pacifists he is automatically on a watch list. Never mind the fact that the Quakers, Amish, Mennonite, Jehovah's Witnesses, SDA's and thousands of other groups are pacifists too, only Elijah Bob and his merry band of Africans are the true pacifists. The government is specifically zeroing in on Bitter Bob.
With electronic media, “big brother” (the government) can watch you in ways that were not possible in the past. And, perhaps it should be mentioned that conceivably, everyone who posts on platforms such as Facebook is a blogger.
Please understand that some in the USA believe that ALL who believe in the millennial reign of Jesus are religious extremists and potential terrorists. Also, the message of the good news of the Kingdom of Godis also considered to be religious extremism by many. Freedom of religious speech is threatened on many fronts. And while you might think that if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear from surveillance, consider that many in the government of the USA consider that not supporting homosexual marriages, etc. are extremist. I also saw someone once on a documentary that stated that people who believed in the millennium could not be trusted and should be considered as potential terrorists. The fact that we in the Continuing Church of God would be considered pacifists, does not change the fact that since we hold to millennial and other biblical views that we will not be improperly classified by government employees with various agendas.Jesus foretold in Scriptures that Bitter Bob would eventually be falsely accused of spreading fake news. Those damn atheists are out after him. As if...
While I fully expect technology will result in real and fake statements being attributed to me and others in the Church of God by evil people who hate the Bible.
Something similar, but worse is coming.
Jesus said:
"When no man can work..." When has a Church of God leader ever worked and gotten their hands dirty and covered with callouses? Other than being on the dole, none of them can honestly claim a comparison to the above scriptures4 … the night is coming when no one can work. (John 9:4, NKJV)
4… the night cometh, when no man can work (John 9:4 KJV
The self-appointed enemy of the US Government continues with this:
So, the Bible tells of a time that will come when the word of God will not be found. And that would seem to be because it will be taken off the internet. In the 21st century, the internet is accessed by people in every country, and thus some type of internet restriction/suspension/site removal is coming–this will one day happen to the Continuing Church of God!When...when, has the word of God ever been found in the improperly named "continuing" Church of God? All we have seen is a fake man who peddles fake homoeopathic "nutritional" supplements and claiming he is God's end-time man with the best interpretation of scriptures yet to be uttered.
The governments that truly should be concerned are the African nations that the fake self-appointed false prophet has members in. It is their citizens who are being scammed and taken advantage of. They are the governments that should be shutting Thiel down. One can dream...
Not that it would validate him in any way, but I hope the US government is watching Bob Thiel. They should also vigorously monitor him for any violations or practices which could impact his tax exempt status.
ReplyDeleteBB
The government is not going to persecute the COGs because they are declining and pose no threat. But the special interests and businesses (banks, google, youtube, twitter, facebook, and media outlets) that control and own the politicians are persecuting (de-funding, de-plaforming, etc) the RISING alt-right. But don't worry, the truth is still getting out, and soon everything is going to be alt-right.
ReplyDeleteThe Waco incident was a test case. The government wanted to see if they could violate the rights of a religious group and get away with it. The tried to set a precedent by picking on a group of peculiar people that the public would have little sympathy for. If they could get away with that, they could then expand their abusive powers later. The whole situation was mis-reported, as usual. Mis-direction is the function of the media.
ReplyDeleteBB knows full well that Thiel would never hurt a fly. He just hates Thiel and wants Big Brother to go after him. Maybe BB just stands for Big Brother.
ReplyDeleteI don’t know Bob Thiel. I’ve never met him, and have no reason to hate him. But, then again, I liked President Obama as a person, while disagreeing with most of his policies.
DeleteWhat do we know about Bob Thiel?He appears to be mentally unstable through his videos and his written materials, and his ministry is based on Armstrongism, a system which has decreased the quality of life of its adherents, leaving many either in a life-long process of recovery, or permanently damaged. Plus, the truth behind his so-called academic credentials is permanently and prominently archived at the late Gavin Rumney’s “Ambassador Watch” blog.
I would like him to be under scrutiny in the same sense or way that I would hope any drug dealers in my community would be on the radar of our local police. And, no, I do not “know” that he would not hurt a fly. Zealots are known to suddenly veer into the Twilight Zone. Teased nerds shoot up schools, Christians have been known to bomb abortion clinics, and vegetarian animal activists have vandalized laboratories or thrown blood at women in expensive furs. Bob Thiel and Terry Ratzmann are products of the same environment.
But, then again you knew all of this. It’s just that as my troll, you’re going to challenge every comment that I post. Hope you’re having fun. How are the rabbis from your old neighborhood treating you these days?
BB
NEO's
ReplyDeleteImproper and false comments on this particular blog might be considered serious by delusional false preachers and driving them over the brink.
Regarding any REAL observations in behaviorchange or move toward extremism or radicalism should be reported to the apropriate authorities.
This goes for your muslim colleague suddenly wearing white clothing or beard, your white supremacist cousin stacking food for half a year or your minister going rogue with wild speculation.
Any personal youthful "hurt" regarding girls with the right pedigree vented on this blog should not drive the insane even more insane or feeling persecuted, or cloud diminish alertness to real of the wall behavior change in religious friends, colleagues or authority figures.
I'm for certain not the one persecuting but will act swiftly on any religious figure showing signs of fast detoriation from accepted normalcy.
Nck
I seriously doubt Almost Arrested Doubly Blessed Elijah Mohammad Prophet Dr. Bitter Bob Thiel and his grossly misnamed Continuing Church of God are on any US government watch lists. Why would he be? Thiel is flattering himself. Thiel and his very low wattage work is a joke - other than himself and his own delusions, no one takes him seriously.
ReplyDeleteOf course, there is a "Catch 22" in his statements. How is this self-proclaimed Prophet going to reach the masses with his Prophetic warning message if he is denied access to the masses through the internet?
Very few on the planet have ever heard of the name Herbert W. Armstrong much less remember what he preached. Vastly fewer have ever heard of Bitter Bob Thiel. This ACOG HWA wannabee is only large in his own mind. To adapt a quote from the late Senator Lloyd Benson, "I knew Herbert and Garner Ted Armstrong. Herbert and Garner Ted were friends of mine - you sir, are no Herbert or Garner Ted Armstrong". In fact, you are no Rod Meredith either.
I'm still waiting for an answer from the double-minded Bitter Bob. Bob, we know you troll this blog - Are you a Prophet even though Herbert Armstrong said there are no Prophets in the end time Church age or are you a Pastor General? Or, are you a double-minded man who can't make up his mind which one he is, and is unstable in all your ways (James 1:8)?
Richard
When I looked at Bob's BNP video, I came across another group of prophets who appeared more successful: The Simpsons.
ReplyDeleteThe reason for the Simpsons' successful predictions?
The reason for COGprophets' unsuccessful predictions?
Bob,Christ has been on his throne for the past 2,000 years. He didn't die in vain like you suppose. He finished his work and said so.
ReplyDeleteHis kingdom, he said, "is not of this world."
Read your bible for a change and get your nose out of HWA heresy
Bwana Bob is transferring money and goods to countries where Muslim terrorists funnel Western money to terrorist causes.
ReplyDeleteBob tells us that he is paying for schooling and buildings and Feast expenses for his African congregations. Anyone who knows how to use Google can determine, however, that at least one of Bitter Bob's African contacts is taking money from at least two different American churches, and probably more. We know that the money is being obtained under false pretenses, but where is the money going? I can imagine the U.S. government taking an interest in that.
Bob likes to use "weasel words".
ReplyDeleteNotice he uses the words "some" and "someone" as the potential "persecutors".
Thiel, how about some real names and numbers please!
Look there were people who didn't like Mother Theresa, and even gave her a bad time when her diaries included confessions of a lack of faith during some severe trials.
The old Dean Martin song went "Everybody Loves Somebody Sometime" , and actually the opposite of it is true too. Everybody is HATED by somebody sometime, and well, that is the way life works.
Bob seems to desire and want to be hated and persecuted and is seeking it out , me thinks! It would be the ultimate validation for him and would mean that he is relevant somehow, and more important than just being the self proclaimed PIMPLE that he is.
Remember that it was Jim Jones and Koresh, amongst others, who were always ranting about being persecuted and the like. IT is a danger sign, and the behavior will continue to deteriorate until it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy!
As a public service, we should remind all readers and lurkers that anyone from the Armstrong movement who claims to be the end-times “Elijah” is in reality “Fert-Elijah”.
ReplyDeleteBB
Imagine what it feels like to be a COG leader like Thiel and know that the US Government hates him only for his crooked bookcases and funeral parlour drapery from the 1980's. Such a sad little man.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing the bitter and rejected false prophet comes close to as persecution is from those of us on this blog. Can there be any other church leader that is so ripe to be mocked as Bitter Bob?
ReplyDeleteThe sad thing is that the Church of God has produced some of the most idiotic church leaders over the decades that no one could ever have imagined. And this is supposed to be the standard bearer of the "one and only true church." What a sad legacy that is.
Oh, surveillance! The self-obsessiveness really shows with some of those guys. A little vitamin peddler of dubious repute somewhere in CA who puts out boring, poor-quality youtube videos of his hands waving at length is SO on the Feds to-do list. Riiight. Sorry Bob, you're not that interesting.
ReplyDeleteThis is FBI agent Fox Mulder from the X files. Bob Thiel is right. Agent Dana Scully and myself have been monitoring Bobs videos. We suspect that he is a extraterrestrial who hasn't fully acclimatized to human society. What gives him away is his crooked bookshelves and crappy curtains.
ReplyDeleteWe're watching you Bob - the truth is out there.
NCK
ReplyDeleteOk. I tried to ignore you but you seem to be trying to provoke me. I did respond to one of your earlier comments along the same line but the moderator censored my comment. On the other hand, he seems to have no inclination to censor your incoherent ravings. Why the unfairness, I don't know. Maybe he actually understands what you write.
You wrote:
"Neo's Improper and false comments on this particular blog might be considered serious by delusional false preachers and driving them over the brink."
So try to tell me, NCK, with some attention to English grammar and syntax, what your issues are. If I can understand what you are talking about, and I will be patient, I will respond. If I can't understand what you are talking about, I will continue to ignore you and your idiosyncrasy.
Anonymous 9:22
ReplyDelete"The government is not going to persecute the COGs because they are declining and pose no threat."
The Branch Davidians were a small group of people. Nobody thought they were dangerous until someone saw a box of hand grenades break open and spill out that was to be delivered to Mt. Carmel.
The major error made by the US ATF was they did not arrest Vernon when he was in downtown Waco shopping. Instead they waited until he was in his redoubt and his troops fully weaponized. If they had picked off Vernon early and peacefully, his followers might have been rescued. And maybe now, after years of therapy, they might be able to go back into society again.
I hope the US ATF doesn't make this same too-little, too-late mistake with the Armstrongist fragments. People who are under mind control can go bazooka without much provocation.
"... I hope the US government is watching Bob Thiel. ... vigorously ... for any violations or practices which could impact his tax exempt status."
ReplyDeleteAnd I hope they do the same to you, since most people cheat on their tax returns. Let the witch-hunt begin, and let it begin with you.
Don’t worry about me, troll. I err in the IRS’s favor. Always have and always will.
DeleteBB
Re: 5:49 neo
ReplyDeleteNo comma before "and". :-)
Ok, I'll spell it out.
"Improper"
A matter of taste and opinion regarding your likening of cog with davidians. We differ. If you have evidence of radicalized, militarized behavior, feel free to report. There might even be an odd grouping in the woods posing a threat by that definition, who knows.
You however, categorize at least 40.000 people who are absolutely normal (besides a belief system you and I contend) under a "davidian" umbrella. That is improper and after having infiltrated some groups after your alarming call, the authorities might put you on an "ignore" watchlist.
So danger 1). You might be sidelining yourself with your outrageous claims while at a certain point in time your contribution could be essential.
Danger 2). You show contempt for the constitution of the united states and the freedom it provides under the law. That includes the freedom to drive unmotorized carts in pensylvania or find scriptures that support the eating of dry crackers. Heresy or the dislike thereof is no reason for contacting the atf. When or if you have "real and current" information "breaching the peace" please report.
Now you picked one particular quote of mine that you did not understand.
On the "persecution" topic under 5:17 and here on 6:01.
You specifically call for government to be involved in deposing religious leaders.
Now.
I know your previous writings (although I missed the non ac grad bit) and have some idea that you can be balanced and informed.
What I meant was that perhaps you are right on some little fringe group that is below anyones radar and really insane beyond ordinary religious insanity.
With improper, undirected bold statements like "call the atf" it is those crazy fringe groups (if they are existant) that might find their "persecution" claims validated.
So yes, the topic here is "provoking" a self fulfilling prophecy. That provocation is completely different from the aid and assistance dr tabor offered to institutions that are known to lack the necessary data to deal with specifics as their reason of existance is to exercise bluntness.
So again. If you know of cog split off in some neck of the woods, with a leader having 10 "wives" stacking weapons. Please continue to ignore me and do what is necessary. Do not ignore me while one enjoys wallowing in victimhood as the cog in your opinion sanctioned the killing of many native tribes, while in your same idiosynchracy trace cog history no further than 1932. That is odd?
I don't want you to be odd.
I'd like you to have fun. Rave and rage at times. Enlighten the disenfranchised. And yes sound the trumpet at the apropriate authorities (and here) if you have evidence of danger, beyond the "normal" grandiose delusions or lack of "servant" ministry or overspending on grandiose projects, that are exposed on a regular basis.
Who wants to play a part in a self fulfilling prophecy, even out of sheer righteous indignation or personal frustration?
I think that was it.
Just observations of a general kind. Not even personally directed.
Nck
Is impending internet censorship and (falsely interpreted) famine of the word Bob's way of saying Time is Short?
ReplyDeleteDoes Bob have a Plan B in place? Perhaps it will be time to prepare the Two Witnesses, or go back to word-of-mouth and public preaching? How about Bob going to Africa as a missionary? "Dr Thiel I presume?"
NCK:
ReplyDeleteThank you for trying to work your thoughts into plain English. I appreciate not having to read puzzles.
You wrote:
"You however, categorize at least 40.000 people who are absolutely normal (besides a belief system you and I contend) under a "davidian" umbrella." (I don't actually know what 'you and I contend' is meant to say.)
I will not address everything your wrote - that would be burdensome for our moderator, but let me look at the statement above. We analyze this differently. You look at what is right now and I look at what might potentially happen. The former view, your view, is what leads to events like Jonestown where everybody is surprised. But in retrospect, nobody should have been surprised. The warning signs were there. You see 40,000 "normal" people and I see 40,000 people who differ from full blown Branch Davidians only because the right trigger event has not happened. They are pre-disposed, prepared, to be the next wave of Branch Davidians. Another way of saying this is that the same spirit that resides in the Branch Davidian movement, also resides in the Armstrongist movement.
Will Armstrongists ever become violent? Did anyone think that Vernon Howell would do what he did? The Branch Davidians just started as an odd but innocuous offshoot of the Davidian Seventh Day Adventists. Have you seen some really weird leaders rise up within the Armstrongist fragment churches? And no matter how weird, their people slavishly follow them?
I don't think you are doing anyone a favor by mitigating an alarming situation.
OK everybody, think for a minute: can anybody see Gerald Flurry or David Pack degenerating into a David Koresh type? Ron Weinland? Rod McNair or Gerald Weston?
DeleteUCG and the COGaWA have a different form of church governance, but are any of their ministers similarly mentally unstable?
How about the membership at large? Are there extremists just waiting for the right events? How many would enthusiastically flee, if some loose cannon gave the order, and considering “government from the top down”, how do we imagine that that would work out?
Nck is all wet regarding probable scenarios. Only an Armstrong defender or apologist would attempt to downplay the potential gravity of future ACOG situations. Many of us have expected the Armstrong version of a Waco or Jonestown situation for years, and the events in Wisconsin demonstrate that some sort of disaster is a very real possibility.
BB
BB
DeleteIts not necessary, but if you would reread what is written with eyes wide open. You will see that actually, I am the one giving specific instructions and signs what to watch. While the people who seem to be caring, speculate with wild generalisations that actual members would find insulting and enforce a siege mentality. I am pointing out one of your blind spots here.
Show your parents NEO and my postings. With NEO they will stop reading and say what an uninformed young man. With my posting they will respond. I would never allow mr so and so have 10 wives, or take cool aid, or any medicine for that matter, dont you think. I am very specific in conversation.
Nck
As Waco was unfolding before us in living color on our TV screens, I was hoping that the Feds would move in quickly and diffuse the situation before it became another Jonestown. At that time, I did not even know that such a person as Dr. James Tabor existed. I learned about him later through these “dissident” sites, and about his role in the Waco standoff a couple years ago in Dixon Cartwright’s “Journal”.
ReplyDeleteIn the past couple years, I’ve wondered if Dr. Tabor might not have misread the situation, and in seeing a kinship of beliefs, might have failed to realize that similarly to Islamic terrorists, the Branch Davidians had become radicalized as compared to their “host” religion. It is still a topic of debate as to the origin of the fires. However, I have to wonder what might have been the final outcome if the Feds and Janet Reno had been left to their own understandings and resources. Most likely, we’ll never know some of the very key aspects. I do know that for months after the standoff, there were bumper stickers that read “Is your church B.A.T.F. Approved?” at all the gun shows. Which struck me as being non-sequitur. I had never thought of Adventists as becoming the darlings of militia types.
BB
40.000 people who are absolutely normal (besides a belief system you and I contend)
ReplyDeleteThis is a bad premise. Psychologists have done studies of the members of various cult groups, and have often found that different groups attract people with different DSM-IV diagnoses. Some cults are great at attracting or creating obsessive-compulsives. Others are great at attracting (or creating) people with Borderline Personality Disorder. And so on.
If you have witnessed enough ACOG congregations from a reasonable emotional/professional distance, I am sure you can come up with some non-specialist generalizations that would mark the ACOG "type" as having certain very common personality traits. Not that any of these traits are horrible pathological deformities, but they do suggest something about the ACOG experience, whether as cause or as effect.
ReplyDeleteAt least in this picture Bob Thiel is not wearing his black shirt that HWA never would have approved of.
7:45
ReplyDeleteTo contend....to strive with...
I apreciate tou concern.
Alarming signs differ for your local high school shooter, a radicalizing muslim colleague, or a dude trying to find a heavens gate.
For a cog signs of derailing would be, a sudden change in the acquiring of weapons (after a 80 year history of non involvement in military and war), stacking of medicine ( after 80 years of abstaining from medicine), preparations to move to a single space (different from feast), improper taking of more than 5 wives etc etc etc Such changes would be worth reporting. (apart from the regular shennenigans as I said)
I am not mitigating your desire for healthy happy people. I am just taking the example that when we had too many fire drills in the building some employees would just not move from their screen anymore, being absolutely bored with the building managers.
I do understand what you say about "a spirit residing in a movement".
At Yad Vashem I was expecting a certain view on the Nazis in the documentation of occurences. I was somewhat shocked, confronted, ashamed that the narrative at Yad Vashem did not start with some nice villification of the Germans but actually with Christianity itself. Whow, I didnt see that one coming. Perhaps you see things I am not seeing.
Now. On a completely different and unrelated note I posted an article on the "unleavened bread" topic for your entertainment related to some of your interests. (politics,dna, control of the narrative of history)
Nck
BB 8:23
ReplyDeleteYou raise interesting points which could be discussed for hours.
Currently there are real issues with returning "fighters" from syria. How does one deradicalize people. (interesting how you once warned for at least not to fuel nazi boy)
About "the darling of militia types".
Look, during the receivership stan was able to rally most religions behind wcg. Freedom is a broad subject and neo and I are discussing the merits and disadvantages of freedom.
This is completely on topic, regarding Bobbie Thiels complaints or whining depending on where you stand.
So far we have only the crooked curtains to be worried about. Oh yes the flapping hands.
Nck
8:28
ReplyDeleteThat is I believe the "mission statement" of this blog, scientifically framed. Who would disagree.
Nck
NCK:
ReplyDelete"Do not ignore me while one enjoys wallowing in victimhood as the cog in your opinion sanctioned the killing of many native tribes, while in your same idiosynchracy trace cog history no further than 1932. That is odd?"
This statement has veered off into diminished intelligibility. I am not sure what you are saying and what 1932 has to do with anything. But let me make a statement about Native Americans, since I am one in part (as one of the Armstrongist contributors to this blog said of me, I am "genetically challenged.")
Should someone be able to advocate the genocide of a race of people in a public forum with impunity?
You cite me for "contempt for the constitution of the united states" yet you make a mockery of the morality behind the First Amendment by implying that the COG's open advocacy of genocide is just an issue of victimhood on my part.
I was sitting with my wife in a restaurant in a nearby town after Sabbath Services. We were with a WCG deacon and his wife. Both knew that I was Native American. The deacon stated smugly while we were eating, without any sense of impropriety, that all Native Americans and Hispanics should have been exterminated. His wife looked up from her plate and said with some animation "Wipe them out!"
This is comparable to a German family and Jewish family eating together in Berlin in 1933 and the Germans suddenly expounding on the topic of the value of Jewish genocide. Do you believe that is an acceptable thing to do? Do you think that there is anything within the Christian realm that would support this noisome idea within the bounds of "love they neighbor." Yet this is Armstrongist behavior in good form.
If the WCG and its offshoots want to advocate genocide, they should be open and honest about it and take the consequences of being labelled a hate organization as they truly deserve. How could one conclude they are not a hate organization? By saying that this bizarre idea is somehow justified by the Bible? Should people be able to make these statements casually with impressionable minds in earshot. How many children in the WCG have had their minds polluted with genocidal racism because of these kinds of hate-filled statements made blithely. I met some of these kids at AC Big Sandy. It was not pleasant - the Armstgrongist Hitler Jugend.
I have no apologies regarding my view of the genocidal racism advocated by Armstrongists. An Armstrongist respondent to this blog claimed that such genocide was justified because all these people were degenerates. I responded by citing how the Scots-Irish, many sent here as criminals from England, might also be regarded as degenerates. Yet the WCG is not calling for their extermination. It is an issue of pure racism directed towards people of color and advocated by the White Supremacist viewpoints of Armstrongism.
With 1932 (or 1931 whatever) I meant that you claim wcg advocated the wiping out of tribes while at the same time claim its pedigree does not extend beyond 1931 ( calling it armstrongism). What then do you mean, the incident at wounded knee? You cannot reconcile the two without either renaming the phenomenon of armstronism or extending the pedigree to at least the early 1900.
DeleteOk, that was just a little humor.
To be serious. The incident in the restaurant was terrible. There are two possibilities. You either felt at the time that the guy was making a terrible joke and suffered this misguided "joke", or and I have said this before, you are a true gentleman for suffering such abuse with poise.
I am a 100 percent sure that if it had happened to me (and I felt he was not joking) I would have set him straight in public in front if high ranking ministers and probably even physically. This means that regarding this incident you would have been a better man than I am.
How can I be so sure about the 100 percent. Our family was widely known as not mincing words when confronted with injustice. One time in my teens an extremely nice family in wcg went at lenght to provide for me to stay with them and meet their family and friends a couple of thousand miles from home.
After sabbath service they curiously asked me what I thought of their minister (with whom they had a close working relationship). I told them I thought he was a redneck ass, but that I thought his wife had good manners.
Oh man. I was only 18 and these people spent 20 minutes explaining to me why their minister might have come across that way and what his personal family and regional background was. On my part horrible behavior for a guest, in retrospect, but I was raised that way. To tell people in the face that they will encounter opposition if the universal rights of man and accepted civil behavior patterns are not respected in my presence, regardless of faith, social status or pedigree.
As I ve said before. My region was different from many experiences related here. At one time one half of my congregation suffered the worst of humiliation, injustice and persecution in real life. So the culture in our congregation would not have been compliant with what you suffered during that dinner.
I'll tell you one time what happened when flabbergasted south african ministers noticed that 300 15 year old kids did not agree with the contents of their sermon.
Or how my father brought all children to the front rows of the local "talent ahow" at the feast, in defiance of some regional director who had told the kids they could not attend the show for their noise and general roucousness, while waiting for the doors to open. One of my role models when I was 6.
I know what you suffered during that dinner. Even if you have been a gentleman at the time.
Subconciously in cyberspace I regard Dennis a brother, you a friend and BB some kind of Jedi Master. But hey this blog is only virtual reality.
Nck
I grew up hearing the church say that the gentile nations, ie. American Indians, Hispanics, Blacks, or essentially anyone who was not of the white race, as people less than. They were outside the covenant, though still "loved" by God they were not part of God's original plan. They were all the result of the sin committed at the Tower of Babel. Some even thought that in the millennium these peoples skin color would be changed to Caucasian.
ReplyDelete9:55
DeleteYes, including germans, russians, hungarians etc etc. The official doctrine was that "Israel" was bound by the covenant and the recipient of blessings mirroring the american empire and its allies basically.
(It was the cold war, remember that one too?)
Nck
NCK, you wrote:
ReplyDelete"To be serious. The incident in the restaurant was terrible. There are two possibilities. You either felt at the time that the guy was making a terrible joke and suffered this misguided "joke", or and I have said this before, you are a true gentleman for suffering such abuse with poise."
Neither possibility you cite was the case. The deacon was not joking but calmly expressing orthodox Armstrongite viewpoint. He had the weight of the entire church behind his statement and he knew it. This did not take much calculation on his part.
And I was not suffering with poise. I had been up against this before. I had to be yielded to the government of God and any ordained person out-ranked me. If I had openly disagreed with the Deacon, I would have been reported to the pastor who would then meet with me and verify to me that Native Americans were to be exterminated, like the pastor in Wichita, Kansas did.
My position is that racist genocide is racist genocide whether it is espoused by Heinrich Himmler in 1938 or the offshoots of the Worldwide Church of God in 2018. Just because people dress up and go to church on the Sabbath, read the Bible every day, pray every day, glad hand the minister, tithe and conform to the smallest laws with great pomposity, this does not offset the fact that they are advocates of racist genocide.
You could argue that they are naive but really nice people and don't know what they are really talking about but how else does one understand the straightforward idea of exterminating all Native Americans as an act pleasing to God. These people are monsters with a thin and deceptive varnish of faux compassion. The varnish of holiness just makes everything all the more creepy.
NEO
ReplyDeleteI attended church services for eight years and never heard or overheard talk of your 'genocidal racism.' If any member expressed such a view, it was not representative of church members or church culture. Members know that such attitudes are anti Christian and anti biblical. Members are not the best natured people, but genocidal racists they are not. Your accusation is a slur on its members.
As far as I'm concerned, you have a king size mental problem.
Byker Bob asked ...can anybody see (a COG leader) degenerating into a David Koresh type?
ReplyDeleteTo me it seems unlikely, but I could imagine a leader and his inner circle making a getaway. His entourage could have to use some force, depending on the demeanor of his farewell committee.
Perhaps the closest this came in the WCG was when HWA contemplated his flight to Mexico City if matters in the receivership had turned ugly. And I believe Rod Meredith along with others gathered in Pasadena put himself in a physically defensive posture.
Interesting scenarios could be Gerald Flurry and company boarding his jet for the last time for destination unknown, and David Pack keeping the bankers at bay when he runs out of money and has nothing but his campus.
ReplyDeleteAt least in this picture Bob Thiel is not wearing his black shirt that HWA never would have approved of.
Anonymous 1:19
ReplyDeleteThis is not rocket science. Just because you have not heard of this within your brief and recent tenure does not mean that it wasn't a popular idea at an earlier time. In fact it is quite representative of WCG culture. It may not be much mentioned anymore. But a few weeks back an Armstrongite contacted me on this blog who was an advocate of Native Americans being exterminated. If you attend an Armstrongist congregation, find an older member and ask him/her about Native Americans.
It is odd that you accuse me of trumping up (forgive me for seeming to abuse his Majesty's august name) a slur about something that I have encountered repeatedly first hand and then you slur me by saying I have a "king size mental problem," something for which you have no evidence. Were you intending to be a poor witness for Christianity or was that an accident?
Maybe Bob should start listening to The Convict Report podcast, since he could be a convict soon.
ReplyDelete"Don’t worry about me, troll. I err in the IRS’s favor. Always have and always will."
ReplyDeleteWell troll, if you had any credibility people might believe that. Unfortunately, it can't be proven.
Who cares, doof-burger? The IRS facility in Ogden has some of my equipment that I installed there about ten years ago. Also, my ex-wife works for the IRS. Smoke that!
DeleteBB
If the WCG and its offshoots want to advocate genocide, they should be open and honest about it and take the consequences of being labelled a hate organization as they truly deserve. How could one conclude they are not a hate organization? By saying that this bizarre idea is somehow justified by the Bible?
ReplyDeleteWell, there is genocide in the bible, but the genocide in the bible is in the Old Testament, which many Jews still believe is appropriate for our time, and apply it to Palestinians who are currently being tortured and killed in large numbers. Christians, including the COGs, don't believe in genocide in our time. COGs don't get active in politics, the Jews do. Funny how Christians are always condemned for what is in the Jewish part of the Bible, while Jews get a pass.
Anonymous April 9 at 1:19 PM said, "NEO, I attended church services for eight years and never heard or overheard talk of your 'genocidal racism.' If any member expressed such a view, it was not representative of church members or church culture. Members know that such attitudes are anti Christian and anti biblical"
ReplyDeleteMY COMMENT - Ditto! I attended R/WCG for eight years also (1968 to 1976). I never heard talk of genocidal racism either. This is a fabricated slur on the entire Church for the misguided views of one WCG deacon in a restaurant with NEO. The Church already admits its members are "the weak of the world - the base things". Therefore, you are not going to find "the best and brightest" among its membership including the deacon that NEO refers to. We have enough real baggage to deal with in Armstrongism, but we don't need to fabricate more baggage. British Israelism as taught by the Church as the key to understanding the US and Britain in Old Testament prophecy is one thing, but genocidal racism was never taught by the Armstrongs or by its ministers from the pulpit.
Regarding the "king size mental problem", I have to agree also. This was the guy who tried to paint all Trump supporters as racists in another post topic recently. NEO sees racism everywhere even if he has to fabricate it in his mind. I am glad Gary stepped in and put a stop to it as we come to this website to discuss Armstrongism and its splinters - not someone's individual political agenda.
Richard
NEO
ReplyDeleteAs well as attending church services for 8 years, I have also been reading church literature since 1965. Never once did I come across your 'genocidal racism' allegation. It sticks out like a sore thumb, so I would never forget such a position if advocated in church writings.
It seems the spirit of our time, at least in the west, to withdraw into some fantasy world where we demonize those we disagree with, or dislike. It permeates our main stream media. Needless to say, it's bearing false witness against our neighbors.
I'm recalling a Good News article series, probably from the mid-eighties (though it could easily be a sanitized version of an earlier piece) where Hoeh theorized that the pre-Columbian Americas were populated by people of Canaanite stock.
ReplyDeleteI'm only guessing, NEO, but perhaps the animated meal conversation was based on that series of articles?
Richard (Lake of Fire) and Anonymous 6:41
ReplyDeleteI must admit that I am pleasantly surprised that you have never heard of the extermination of the Native Americans as a WCG teaching. I first heard of the teaching in the Wichita, Kansas church in a Bible Study in the early Seventies out at the old Cotillion Ballroom. It was quite common as many bloggers here could testify. But maybe some of the offshoots have now recanted of it.
Since you both have never heard of this idea, you probably do not know its rationale. The WCG taught that Native Americans were Canaanites. This is because they occupied North America before the Western European people arrived here. This is pretty tenuous but Hoeh augmented the argument by writing this up in the Compendium of World History and stated that some Canaanites had "red skin." They were brought to the New World by a man of royal Israelite extraction name Odin. And God had already decreed that all the Canaanites in the land of promise (in this case North America) should be exterminated.
Now all of this is malarkey. Especially, the facetioius part about Native Americans being Canaanites. They are the way wrong haplogroup. They are haplogroup Q and the modern day descendants of Canaanites are haplogroup J. That may not mean much to you but in genetics it means they are not even remotely related. The Phoenicians did not have red skin but did make and sell a red dye. But let us not get tripped up by the truth.
And don't be naïve. The WCG, of course, was never going to go on record with a published statement that Native Americans should be exterminated - even back in the hardcore Seventies they were smart enough not to do that. This was oral tradition passed around by word of mouth and often from the pulpit. In Wichita, I heard it from the pulpit and in Spokesman Club. The pastor attributed it to Herman Hoeh.
So I have a deal for the both of you. We can sort this out. Go to a solid Armstrongist leader that you know and get a statement from him for publication on this website, with signature affixed, that asserts the following
1. Native Americans are not Canaanites.
2. Native Americans should not have been exterminated or be exterminated.
This will convince me of the following:
1. At least some offshoots of the old WCG have recanted of their odious genocidal racists beliefs.
2. You both are not as naïve as I think you are.
And as for Donald Trump. He is writing his own legacy. And I did not say that his followers are all racists. I said that he was a racist. But I have desisted writing about him further because it offends tender sensibilities.
Ah, so that Hoeh piece I remembered was related to it. Interesting. Wish I could remember more, but I'm kinda glad in some respects that I don't.
DeleteRSK
DeleteIn 1977 Hoeh preached at one of the black South African Feast sites.
The theme of the sermon was: "Why do we gentiles get to keep the Feast?"
(german descent preaching to people of color at a supposedly jewish feast)
Nck
I remember being shocked as an AC student, hearing negative stereotypes repeated in First Year Bible Class that were not just about Native Americans, but also about all non-Anglo people, some of whom were actually present in class and were regularly hurt by what was said. Remarks were very definitely made about the pilgrims making the same mistake as the ancient Israelites, by failing to utterly destroy the original inhabitants of the promised covenant lands.
ReplyDeleteIf my memories of that racism also make me a mental case in some peoples’ minds, then so be it.
BB
Wow NEO
ReplyDelete"The weight of the entire church"
What a load of crock.
What would have been graphic testimony of personal pain and experiences have now even among known anti armstrongists exposed you as a liar and a phantasy artist.
What a shame!
I warned you for that. That powerful testimony can turn against ones purpose if larded with generalisations and untruths.
And we here even are your friends. Inaccurate reporting at the apropriate agencies might get you listed or sent to hospital.
For me you have even worn out the "go ask older members" argument. That is terrible, it was such a powerful tool in the hands of non liars.
Again now one is saying it didnt happen to you. But to place one troll boy on this blog as the spokesman of the church had blown anything you said or will and probably will for the near future. (until you show clear signs of healing) And I hope it will.
Nck
I heard for years, both in Pasadena and elsewhere, that the extermination of the American Indians in the U.S. was because of Manifest Destiny and God's desire to populate the nation with Mannasehites, that the extermination of the Indians was part of the plan of God. They would get a second chance later on, but in the meantime, Manasseh was to receive its reward over the pagan inhabitants. I even heard this at SEP in 1971 when one of the required readings in the dorm was the US & BC booklet.
ReplyDeleteHmmmm
ReplyDeleteRehashing Trash oooooops sorry Tiras.
I do acknowledge (strange) teachings regarding caananites being black people and native americans being red skin Tiras stock.
I heard the Odin story through Dr Reah from the Spanish department.
It seems that creed seeped in through masonry and is popular on "alternative history channels not related to cog.
No2Hwa
I agree that the "blessings of abraham" creed posed many difficult questions regarding the plight of original inhabitants.
US&BP served as some kind of explanatory paper of the "blessings". My issue is NEO s representation of wcg creed as a "policy" paper. Thats why I chided him for his "extermination policy" stance while he does not trace wcg back earlier than 1931. That makes usbp impossible as a policy paper on the native american but rather explanatory. (even if one believed it)
No2Hwa. I never heard it explained like you. I heard that the plan of god was to bless abrahams descendants, and fulfill that promise no matter what.
The terrible atrocities in assuming that blessing were a result of mans sinful nature. Exactly like divorce was explained. God forbid divorce explicitly, however he allowed it because of the hardness of our hearts.
Or for Israel to have a king. God didnt like the idea but granted one because of the plea of his people. Both examples are quite different from universal godly policy, so was the extermination of natives in official doctrine.
So it seems in the cog world, god fell short of saving the native from the hardness of our heart.
You guys are making an explanatory thesis after the fact, sound like a policy statement for the final solution. And if those ministers or members or students explained it otherwise they showed themselves the bigots and products of their culture that they probably had been forever.
Nck
I believe we’ve come to the point where some of the posters here have attended splinters for the past twenty years, and like the old Russian Communist historians, their splinter leaders have purged, revised, and rewritten many of the teachings and events that those of us who were WCG members up until 1975 had experienced and know existed, and were common everyday practices. The realities back then were horrific. We should not allow them to be whitewashed or swept under the carpet.
ReplyDeleteWho is in the best position to recount the past injustices and offenses? The people who experienced them most directly. The individual who sat in class or Bible Study and heard the derogatory stereotypes about his heritage regularly and mindlessly repeated. The once young children or teenagers who suffered angry beatings every day. The people who lost relatives to totally treatable illnesses whom the revisionists now describe as having had a choice. The spouses and children whose happy and functional families were broken up due to the early divorce and remarriage teachings. The people whose entire existences were based on the events which were supposed to kick in in 1972-75, whom some now call liars because the revisionists who taught them since have said that the church never set dates.
These nightmares were part of every member’s life under the leadership of Herbert W. Armstrong. In deeply sick irony, people with healthy and functional memories, the very people who refused to participate in their own revisionist reprogramming, are now being accused of having mental problems.
It has almost come to the point where further discussion and sharing are no longer possible. Even the people who have left the splinters have no idea how bad, toxic, and anti-Christian Herbert W. Armstrong’s church was. In fact, theses relatively recent dissidents are some of the people who are denying fact and calling people liars or mentally unstable. They only know the conditions in their own splinters which prompted them to leave. I suppose this was inevitable. Time even makes people who were in bad marriages only recall the good aspects. Besides, what sane and rational person would believe that it could possibly have been as bad as it actually was?
BB
In any political and religious organisation made up of a 100,0000 members, every imaginable point of view will be expressed sooner or later over a period of time. The issue is are these various points of view representative of the character, culture and beliefs of that group, In the case of genocide racism, no, that was not a trait of the WWCG. I extensively socialised with its members, and that was not the groups belief.
ReplyDeletePlease, lets have some perspective.
The church was and is so flawed that there is no need to make up stuff.
NO2HWA, as shocking as this may seem in our modern day, LCG still teaches the racist Manifest Destiny idea, as recently as their last magazine.
ReplyDeleteAmerica Achieves Its Manifest Destiny
Winnail makes it sound so benign, but if you know the history (both USA and WCG) his article is a dog whistle for all the old racist beliefs. HWA taught that God had faithfully given Ephraim and Manasseh their delayed blessing; indeed, he taught that the USA and British Empire would eventually fall because of their bad conduct. What HWA never taught, but many other ministers did teach, was that the Manassehites were morally justified in genociding and enslaving non-White people. "Manifest Destiny" and "The White Man's Burden" and crap like that.
This is crazy.
ReplyDeleteI get in a barfight and Mark Zuckerberg starts sending me articles and TedX videos on Indigenous rights for days.
I bet the Chinese are subtracting "social" points from my account as we speak.
And the Trump administration is contemplating asking for social media passwords for visa applicants. Wanna get into the USA you might wanna get involved in the discussion.
nck
Anon 418 suggested Maybe Bob should start listening to The Convict Report podcast
ReplyDeletePodcasting is a media that Bob has not, to my limited knowledge, attempted to exploit.
I remember when podcasting was new PCG uploaded their Key of David, LCG its Tomorrow's World (audio only) and CEM Ron's Born to Win to podcast. UCG also had a short and dreary Youth podcast.
Imagine! Bob without the curtains, bookcase, and jazz hands! Perhaps audio only would be less distracting - like people who heard the Nixon-Kennedy debates on radio favored Nixon, and on television favored Kennedy...
NEO,
ReplyDeleteAs stated, I have never heard genocidal racism espoused by either the Armstrongs or their minions in the eight years I attended in the Washington, Baltimore and Annapolis, Md. WCG congregations, or any FOT sermons. I'm NOT saying your experience with the deacon at the restaurant didn't happen, or even the Bible Study you refer to in Kansas. I am saying that the Worldwide Church of God - the weak and base things - had many fringe weirdos at either end of the Bell Curve that believed all kinds of weird things. There used to be a small group of weirdos that would show up at HWA's gravesite on the anniversary of his death expecting God to resurrect him. There was a woman in the Washington, D.C. WCG that didn't believe in shaving, and protruding out from under her long dress were the hairiest legs you ever saw rivaling any creature from the movie "Planet of the Apes". We had a tax cheat who thought to pay taxes was wrong - it didn't end well for him. The middle of the Bell Curve where most people in WCG were didn't believe such nonsense.
NO2HWA is jogging my memory by his post. I do remember some reference along those lines somewhere along my journey in the WCG. It referred to Manassah's (USA) birthright and NATIONAL PHYSICAL inheritance and not spiritual. It was referred to by the Church in retrospective history, i.e. Hoeh's Compendium of World History - which no one other than a very few fringe Armstrongites at one end of the Bell Curve even takes seriously today - but not something the Church believes should be continued as a practice today other than the fringe idiot WCG deacon at the restaurant.
Spiritually, the Worldwide Church of God believed a scripture I heard MANY times during my 8 years in the Church - "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus". Galatians 3:28.
"Racial Genocide" as you have described it was not ever preached as something the Church believed in as something that should be practiced today. We had enough Black brethren and Black ministers who would never spouse to such fringe nonsense. In my eight years in the three aforementioned WCG congregations, we had Ambassador College trained black ministers in Ben Wesley, Curtis May and Arnold Hampton. Our Baltimore Church had Mr. Andrew Jackson as a deacon - a black leader in the local congregation. In nearby Philadelphia, Pa. (by WCG standards "nearby" which we visited on a couple occasions), there was Abner Washington. At FOT, we heard Black Chicago Pastor Harold Jackson who my understanding is that the Church thought so highly of him that they named a building at Big Sandy after him. Elbert Atlas another Black WCG minister. NONE of these people I have mentioned would have had anything to do with WCG if "racial genocide" as you describe it was practiced and preached by the Church.
As I said before, Armstrongism has enough baggage on its own without fabricating new ones. I don't doubt for a minute that you could find some fringe members in the Armstrong Splinters that might believe that this non-sense should be practiced and preached today. The Worldwide Church of God had more than its fair share of wierdos walk through their doors.
Richard
I think we need a separate thread for this. Perhaps NEO would care to author a recapping OP to start it?
DeleteByker Bob:
ReplyDeleteI think you evaluated the situation effectively in your post of 11:51. Further, what I have noticed from other posts to this thread, is that there is a mistaken belief that this was something that was believed by only a fringe element when in fact it was a widespread teaching that was transmitted to local congregations by the ministry.
I have noticed that there were many people who did not care about this issue. Rather than being energetically supportive or morally outraged, they just did not care. This would be comparable to those Germans who during WWII just ignored such events as Kristallnacht and the rise of anti-Semitism. This may be why there are pockets where this teaching is not known.
Another thing that is surprising is the use of a logical fallacy as if it were a trusty remedy. One would think that going through our public school system would improve logical reason at least to the point that such arguments would not be recruited so indiscriminately.
That is the fallacious argument: "I have never experienced it, therefore it cannot have been." Since this conditional is used as an argument that is determinative with finality, then anyone who disagrees must have a "king size mental problem." It is discouraging that logical discourse has declined so badly so as to permit this, even in our informal forum.
The fact remains, that the advocacy of exterminating Native Americans existed broadly in the Worldwide Church of God. (I frequently had WCG members, on finding out I was Native American, ask me how it feels to be a part of a people who should have been wiped out. I was always surprised at how blithely this was asked. No doubt the inquirers felt they had the church on their side.) To my knowledge, this has never been denounced by the WCG or any of its offshoots. Part of the problem, of course, is that to denounce it, one must first admit that it was believed. As we have seen, there is a great reluctance to do that. Even GCI has not touched this issue and I am sure never will.
Some could say that this is in the past and there is no need to now be concerned about it. The issue here is a matter of respect for human dignity. How do we feel about dedicated Nazis in Germany who still today would like to see Jews exterminated. Is there not some moral outrage that this would evoke?
It is easier to hide from the culpability by labeling it all "fake news." I recall a man who gave a talk in Spokesman Club in which he claimed that the Holocaust never happened. I think I was shocked wordless and just sat and stared at him. I had visited with him many times and I never occurred to me that he was an anti-Semite, but later I found out that he was just so. But anti-Semitism was not widely held in the WCG - it existed mostly among the ministry in Big Sandy.
Like Jesus said: "But wisdom is justified of all her children."
Thanks, NEO, I appreciate the compliment. It may be difficult for some to remember or believe how mainstream racism really was in the old Radio and Worldwide Church of God, partially because the racism got relabeled as being “God’s way”. There is an old saying to the effect that salesmanship is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a tactful way that the person told is actually looking forward to the trip. WCG salesmanship involved justifying and sugar-coating racism so effectively that many white members could no longer discern it as such. Our brethren of color, if we were fortunate enough to have some of them as friends, could be very helpful with our perceptions.
DeleteRacism was definitely bigtime mainstream in the old Radio or Worldwide Church of God. But the ministers carefully utilized Orwellian double-speak to portray it as being “God’s” way, painting it as being good, especially such “leaders” as Gerald Waterhouse in his traveling road show depiction of the Millennium. The church didn’t use the most offensive of the ethnic slurs. In that respect, they were a bit more subtile than hate groups like the KKK and the Nazis. The church had an established hierarchy of the races, based on British Israelism and some of the nations or groups that were ancient Israel’s contemporaries. Perhaps the most devastating form of racism is the stereotyping of alleged weaknesses to one’s heritage, and the use of that information to marginalize, invalidate, and exclude others.
At a time when the general population of the USA was beginning to recognize and celebrate individual talents and qualifications, Herbert Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God continued to see and depict minority people monolithically, and based on antiquated stereotypes. WCG continued to preach segregation as being God’s way late into the Civil Rights movement, and trotted out all of the old stereotypes to rationalize sending everyone “back” to their supposedly native lands. In many cases these lands were highly hypothetical, and based on imagination and convenient snapshots in time.
When I think of the WCG in retrospect, it is not only the prophecy model which has broken. So many of the things which were held out for us to believe are no longer even remotely possible, let alone credible. The “values” that were espoused during the time of the so-called Manpower Committee were largely based on racial stereotypes that now seem camp and silly. An organization deprived itself of some of the best and brightest who could have actually strengthened the church and provided better odds for survival. It’s yet another example of how Armstrongism was time and date-stamped for another era.
BB
It was not part of wcg doctrine therefore no one is denouncing it.
ReplyDeleteIm sure the restaurant incident happened, I'm sure some ignorant members stretched the "physical blessings" thing when confronted with a genuine native species.
I repeat that the people who say I didnt experience it, also mean that they never read anything about it nor heard about it.
"Should" have been exterminated". Man what fringe people did you attend with.
Anti semitism in wcg would at worst be in par with christian anti semitism.
I don't think for a moment that the two main jewish policy assistants and legal counsel in the church would have put up with it if it was official.
Again people taking their local prejudices into the church.
Any northern canadians wanting to weigh in?
The real COG history in the DaKotas and the oklahoma territories in the 1840s is well documented.
Far more interesting read.
Nck
"It is discouraging that logical discourse has declined so badly so as to permit this"
ReplyDeletePffff. You started it with taking personal experiences as being official doctrine and believed and espoused by 100.000 of people without any documentation supporting the generalisation of that thesis expanding it into genocide, I must say, terrible experiences. If you had not veered of "so badly" you would have found sympathizers for an important topic, that is the plight of the native through christian missionary involvement.
I do sympathize with the topic. Although my personal focus so far had more been on the 3 (and more if you include black) evangelists or top ranking (top 5 influencers) who either directly or indirectly personally suffered (consequences of) genocide. I don't believe HWA ever met a person in Israel who had not been a victim of genocide and we poured millions in that struggling nation in ideological and physical support. I found that more influential in the direction of wcg culture.
nck
Nck ~ HWA was at best a selective humanitarian. He had a firm grasp of who was deserving, of who were the “right” people. In helping the people he helped, his efforts were usually self-serving.
DeleteAs everyone here realizes, I, too admire Jewish people. However, I might have grown to respect HWA if he had marched with Dr. King, had fasted with Cesar Chavez, and perhaps travelled with Marlon Brando to Wounded Knee.
BB
It seems that NEO has plugged into the MSM with all this so called white privilege claptrap and genicidle racism nonsense.
ReplyDeleteNEO has left the Herb cult and joined the MSM social justice warrior cult.
According to the search function, the only person prior to your post that spoke of "privilege" has been.... no one.
Delete"advocacy of exterminating Native Americans existed broadly"
ReplyDeleteIf you had just defined your definition of "broadly."
A lot of people in your particular area? The Midwest? 80% of members? 5 BS ministers?
Whatever your answer the irony will get bigger the higher you raise your number in light of:
-The lectures of judges of the International court of Justice at Ambassador College
(yes they actually taught at AC several times)
-The sponsoring of diplomatic dinners at the court of international settlements to raise its profile in an uncooperative worldorder
-The sponsoring of international diplomatic contacts for Dr Singh in Japan, India, Israel
-other contacts with dr lachs World Court etc etc
The irony of the attitudes and remarks by the people/ you suffered.
And the use of their tithes for sponsoring a court that up to this very day is sentencing war criminals for genocide (mladic, karadzic, congo etc etc.)
The other irony is that general custer would not have been tried by this court since the USA has not signed the charter. (just like the charter on child abuse as one of the few nations)
So you better petition the government instead of misrepresenting the legacy of wcg.
nck
BB
ReplyDeleteYour 11.51 PM post is nothing more than putting lipstick on a pig. The church and member position was never one of 'genocidal racism.' This is not re-writing history or whitewashing, as you claim.
The odd church crazy does not justify saddling the church with such a evil label.
Sounds like you weren’t even there, 4:45.
DeleteBB
12:50
ReplyDeleteI'd rather speak of the Church sponsoring and paying for "some lasting results". If you prefer to label HWA as the humanitarian so be it. In the Chuch's definition HWA was part of the Church. In Church speak, "if one gets praise all do, if one suffers all do".
Non of the thins I cite were secret.
As I said lately I was watching J Edgar Hoover movie with dicaprio, 1895 born, 1925 start career, anti communist fighter. lifelong figther of "immorality" in american government. Although rather lenghty the movie showed some gems on social unrest in the 1920's regarding communism, strikes, trade associations and his views on immorality, in the end making a big mistake sabotaging dr king.
I see far more traits of the contemporary Hoover in HWA than the "racist" people make of him in hindsight and by re writing history, being overly shocked by the N word wich at that particular time was the defined word to describe people of color. It's worth watching to get some insight into that generation and the radicals they were "fighting" in order to achieve "utopian (world) order".
If you would re read all PT articles on the civil rights movement, it would be clear that the PT adressed the perceived threat of communism, civil unrest, chaos, anarchy - versus the forces of order, not race or dna. I'm not saying that was the right choice I'm just saying the level of analysis is extremely poor by blaming all on "racism" in hindsight.
nck
Nothing in the world view of Armstrongism prepared church members in the 1950s, ‘60s, or ‘70s to understand or factor in aboriginal or tribal peoples, or their beliefs. So, they equated Native Americans with the Canaanites. Do we all understand what happens automatically in peoples’ minds when teachers who are supposedly our spiritual guides equate an entire ethnicity with a people in the Bible whom God instructed “His” people to slaughter?
ReplyDeleteBB
8:17
ReplyDeleteInteresting to note that when in 1957 Hoeh unfolds his theory on Canaan having escaped to the USA through Malta he condemns in the strongest terms some members who wrote to the correspondance department and questioned the humanity of black people. Hoeh calls those who do so, INSANE,IRRATIONAL and finds it unbelievable that people believe such nonsense. Probably the strongest condemnation of members ever from the pages of the PT.
The 1957 article continues to warn how the "colored peoples" are falling into the communist trap.
Again, like Edgar Hoover a political concern, regarding the "race issue" not a genetic concern.
Following the specual op GII logs it becomes increasingly and abundantly clear that HWA had a special mission to communicate with the "colored" leaders of the non alligned nations to keep them in the "capitalist" block led by the USA versus the Soviet Union.
The list of visited nations is undeniable. The sequence is south america, south pacific, east africa, (never west africa or the asian french sphere of influence, who are at the time seeking leadership of the non alligned nations) south east asia, the japanese gentiles
What is even more interesting is that many of those "colored" leaders ranging from kenya to thailand held combined citizenship of their respective nations, great britain or the USA, heaping diplomatic distinctions on HWA.
Oh yes the cold war and decolonization and the rise of the american empire ushering on the new world order.
Nck
I mustve missed a key post. I thought NEOs posts on this subject were re: indigenous Americans?
ReplyDeleteWhat person in their right mind would actually go back and reread all of the garbage in every article in the old Plain Truth?
ReplyDeleteBB
BB 8:30
ReplyDeleteNo one of course!
Just to show that nowadays it takes 35 seconds to see that old NEO is concocting personal theories on otherwise valid topics regarding armstrongism.
RSK. That canaanite malta usa thing seemed to be about the natives although there was plenty on tiras japheth, but as I said I only took 35 seconds to find and scan the article and saw Hoehs strong condemnation of the worst of racists and his political concerns concerning order and structure versus chaos and rebellion, rather than racial. That theme is as old as mankind.
Nck
RSK
ReplyDeleteIt's true that NEO did not use the term white privilege. Rather he described it in his railings. For instance, how dare a 'whitey' girl go to AC and find a good husband. Oh the horror of it, as if NEO doesn't try to get the most from his money when he goes to a supermarket. And this white girl didn't give recognition to porter NEO. Unbelievable? Boy, how privileged and spoilt is that. And that the students at AC should get precedence for the tennis courts (the ones who paid for the land, construction, upkeep) over a bell hop or cleaner. Oh, what's the world coming to. It's all white privilege.
NEOs north American Indian culture has historically been extremely egalitarian. Group pressure was used, including murder, to keep members at the same lowly level. NEO should look at the log in the eye of his own culture rather than complain of being abused by whitey. And the nature of this 'abuse?' Why people at AC rejected NEOs egalitarianism and believed in 'you reap what you sow.' Hence bell hops and porters and cleaners have a loser status than paying students.
If NEO reads the bible, he will find the Christ said that the master is greater than the servant, hence endorsing 'white privilege.' He also said that the chief seat belongs to the chief giver, so status should be based on service to others. So no one is being swindled and there is in fact no privilege, white or otherwise.
Wow! Our race baiter has made another of his periodic appearances,once again displaying his double digit IQ. All we can say about 8:40 is that he sure is a master baiter. Hey, Bubba, do you ever have any intelligent thoughts that would reflect decency as a human being?
DeleteBB
Might be single digit IQ, now that he's amply displayed that he doesn't actually know what the concept of white privilege is.
DeleteYeah, RSK, ol’ Adolf is probably thinking to himself “But, BB, why can’t you just chill and bask in the white privilege and white paternalism? What interest do you have in this fight?”
DeleteThere are some personal matters that he would neither understand or consider important. Like my Navajo ex-wife and her family, since we’re discussing WCG beliefs regarding Native Americans. Loved them deeply, still do, and would fiercely defend them against genocide, verbally or otherwise.
BB
BB
ReplyDeleteThat's not a argument or rebuttal of my points.
No shit, Sherlock. I’m not going to waste my time addressing a barrage of racist and supremacist horseshit. It wouldn’t make you repent, anyway. (Flush! You gone!)
DeleteBB
Whinning, wailing, BobT in his own man-made-up continuing church of god said: "...we hold to millennial and other biblical views..."
ReplyDeleteAnd that view is one of a Mickey Mouse Millennium where BobT believes, like so many, that Jesus Christ will "very soon" return to earth and reign on earth for 1,000 years, but that view is just fake news, which isn't going to happen unless Jesus Christ lied. Jesus Christ said He'd be at the Father's right hand until His enemies are made His footstool. Satan is an enemy; death is an enemy and His Father is not in Rome.
So, BobT, hold on to your false views if you wish, but what a wasted life you have waiting for your fake news to occur!
Whinning, wailing, BobT went on to tell us: "...So, the Bible tells of a time that will come when the word of God will not be found. And that would seem to be because it will be taken off the internet. In the 21st century, the internet is accessed by people in every country, and thus some type of internet restriction/suspension/site removal is coming–this will one day happen to the Continuing Church of God!..."
Who cares? Just you, BobT! We know you are referring to Amos, but don't quote God's Words to us. You, yourSELF, give us a famine of the word...the words of Amos!
Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
Bob T, the verse says that the Lord GOD will "send a famine...of hearing the words of the LORD." How will that famine be sent? There must be some purpose for doing this. It certainly would stop all of the whining and wailing of you false prophets; wouldn't it?
There is no such famine of the word today, so what's your concern?
Bob T, what would you do about it if you found out that that famine, for God's purpose, occurs during the time of your Mickey Mouse Millennium? What would you do about it? Would you strive to thwart it somehow? It has absolutely nothing to do with you, and the group you attend, or any of your fake prophecies, but it will happen for some period of time.
Oh, and time will tell...
John