Who has a better grasp of what it means to be an authentic Christian...
Jefferson Bethke
or
Bob Thiel, self-appointed church leader, apostle, prophet, and any other name you can dream up. The one who was soundly rejected by Rod Meredith
and all other COG leaders.
James Malm, the self-appointed bastardizer of the law who places the law above grace, justive, mercy and Jesus himself.
Vic Kubik, Clyde Kilough, Jim Franks, who connived and conspired while on WCG payroll to start a new church guaranteeing themselves and their cronies
a perpetual income stream.
Gerald Flurry, THAT Prophet, money hungry HWA idolater who destroys families and marriages and needs his own personal jet
just because HWA had one.
Dave Pack, who destroys families and who claims all income belongs to him as a representative of God. It is needed by him so he can make Wadsworth into a cool place for Jesus to walk around in when he returns for the 2 or 3rd time.
Gerald Weston, the legalist who places emphasis on the law over
grace, mercy and justice.
And most every other COG leader out there you can name...
_____________________________________
_____________________________________
_____________________________________
Though to be fair, there are a slim FEW COG men out there who actually get it
Jefferson gets it. He understands.
ReplyDeleteAll that the COG's have ever done is imposed burden after burden on people, using God's name, and claiming God's backing on what they are doing. And the results of this have been absolutely horrible. Look at the realities. Look at what has happened. Look at the RESULTS. Pages, chapters, books, VOLUMES of the atrocities that have been committed in the name of RELIGION. Families separated. Ministers abusing. Financial improprieties. Guilt. Shame. Condemnation. Threats of eternal damnation. Disfellowshipping. Cruel policies. FALSE PROPHECIES. Hope shattered. WHY?
Because of RELIGION. Because they can not grasp the fact that when Jesus said IT IS FINISHED, He meant it. Because of people who cannot seem to realize that the Old Testament were shadows without God, while Jesus is the reality of GOD IN US. Where the Old Testament magnified our weaknesses and our failures, Jesus came to give us rest in a holy life of righteousness, peace, and joy where LOVE RULES.
What HWA did was magnified the physical, glorified forceful, burdensome government, and bastardized EVERYTHING Jesus did. The results are plain. The Worldwide Church of God was NOT Godly. The Worldwide Church of God under HWA was ruled by the power of darkness and evil in the name of religion. And every prophecy ever made by HWA failed because of one reason - THE PROPHECIES were NOT of God. They were lies - from the father of all lies. The evilness that literally seeps from the splinter leaders that have come from WCG is dark, cunning, deceptive, and shatters lives with the force of a cannon. The WCG was everything that God is not. And one more thing. All the Sabbath and Holy Day keeping in the world doesn't mean a hill of beans if the attitudes of the heart and mind are full of evil and darkness and wickedness. So many have been deceived to think that one can be saved by "keeping" days with cold, dark, and godless hearts. Jesus came to bring LIFE, and LOVE, and JOY. I hope that the video will break the spell of deception so many are under, and I hope people will make a decision for Jesus, and for love, and for righteousness in Jesus, NOT religion, and live a way of life of love and rest in God.
The churches of mainstream Christianity have been infiltrated and are no longer following God. It's all a ruse. Those of the ACOG never did follow God. That was a ruse too. Kind of like in the book 1984. Intrigue inside the church has been going on since the time of Jesus (remember Judas?).
ReplyDelete"It is finished"
ReplyDeleteWay too vague. What is finished? Could mean lots of things.
Real Christians don't go to church on SUNday or Nimrod's day.
ReplyDeleteWhat kind of a stupid comment is "What is finished?" Of course, since Jesus is not discussed in the COG, most church members have no idea what Jesus said he accomplished. Pathetic!
ReplyDeletewell, last time i checked: James, the brother of Christ, what was raised in his youth with Him, and what sat at the feet of He, the True Rabbi, and was infused directly with, from his youth, of that Way said the following:
ReplyDelete"PURE religion and UNDEFILED before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows IN THEIR AFFLICTION, and to keep himself UNSPOTTED from the world." James 1:27
c f beyochanan
So real Christians go to church on Saturn's day? Jefferson makes the others look like rank amateurs!
ReplyDelete"and to keep himself UNSPOTTED from the world"
ReplyDeleteAnd simply keeping the Sabbath and Holy Days keeps you "unspotted"? What is it that Jesus said about the Pharisees? You know, the ones who thought they were observing the Law so well? He called them snakes, and broods of vipers.
It means treat others with respect. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Exhibit the fruits of the spirit. Gentleness, meekness, self control. Show Jesus in you. Show God in all you do. The Pharisees weren't just "unspotted". Jesus said
"“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
New International Version (NIV)"
And by the way. Being "unspotted" is really common sense. It has to do with - OH! Could it be? JESUS! Because when Jesus is IN YOU, And working through you - you are washed clean by His Blood. IN HIM, you do good works of faith that express itself in and through love of God and neighbor, and IN HIM, you keep yourself from sinful ways. IN HIM - CHRIST ALONE.
Now tell me how many Sabbath and Holy Day Keepers that are out there in COG land can you really and truly - and honestly say are "Unspotted". Raise your hand and count your fingers. If you are measuring it by the law, you fail. If you measure it by what so many report that they are like (see PCG accounts of the kinds of people that hang out there), you fail. So then how do you measure it? Could it be... how much of Jesus is shown in and through them?
It's not RELIGION. It's RELATIONSHIP. Pure and un-defiled religion is love to God and love to neighbor in and through Christ who lives in you and through you. Period.
It’s a personalized struggle. Each of us must decide whether we’re committed to good or evil, in other words, are we part of the solution or part of the problem? That deep question transcends rituals, customs, and manufactured appearances. Haven’t we all learned that somebody giving you a list of do’s and don’ts in order to become a member of their club so you can look down on everyone else doesn’t get you there? The fact is, we above all people should know that often you must do good IN SPITE OF your church. Being a member of an ACOG, making oneself subject the vile and corrupt authority of proven liars is the biggest and most destructive trial a human could possibly endure.
ReplyDeleteThe simplicity of Noahide law (actually repeated by James) works. Because of the hardness of peoples’ hearts, a school teacher, the Levitical system or law of Moses had to be temporarily imposed until a Savior would be born to live and die so that man’s past, present, and future sins could be forgiven, and Noahide law would finally be written on peoples’ hearts. It has always been the law behind the law, and works in all cultures and eras.
BB
RE: "Though to be fair, there are a slim FEW COG men out there who actually get it"
ReplyDeleteI like how you remain biblical No2HWA.
"Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes."
"The ONE who is victorious will........"
"The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God."
"If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me."
While compiling this it struck me that on the Philadelphia Church the angel says:
"I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."
In retrospect evaluating armstrongite interpretation I don't know why anyone would have dreaded "the germans" in 1974 if armstrongites entire focus was on being philadelphians who "would be kept from what was to test the inhabitants of the earth."
BTW
I do agree with BB's 10:14.
"Religion" is the definition of a system. Spirituality is both a personal and a group experience. House and Rave parties do activate "the human spiritual center" from the viewpoint of the five senses, but those parties do not encompass religion since its philosophy does not contain the principle of "sacrifice' for something that is greater than self, a higher purpose, the greater good of the community or the worship of a creator in a systematic manner.
I really liked the singing and dancing in black churches on television. As a kid I was told to put the television off immediately when it started. Not because of racism or because of "religious flaws' like sunday keeping, no, but because "it was all so emotional."
So yes, I believe it was on that level that Armstrongism could be disconnected and I fully second BB's analysis that true religion works in all cultures and eras. I have reason to believe Jesus knew of Budhism since his father worked in a capital city along the eastern trade route, (sephoris) and Budhas statues are fully based on the Greek statues brought to the East by Alexander the Great's Veterans in Afghanistan and Northern India. Therefore "dr" Hoeh was not on abberation to me but more of an extension or integral part of the early christianity that we claimed to be, recognized by What Thai who occupied front row at HWA's funeral.
nck
Vernon Howell should be added to your list of COG Leaders. He may be a little more extreme in some respects but his anti-theology and emphasis on mind control put him in the middle of COGdom. He would make a good honorary COG Leader. Maybe the COGs could send Vernon's followers a nice plaque to be put up at Waco.
ReplyDeleteThere is the Body of Christ which is invisible and consists of many dedicated members that the Bible refers to as the Elect.
Then there is another phenomenon. People will organize themselves into communities of worship and implement in these diverse communities a distinctive theological practice. This is NOT the Invisible Body of Christ. This is a humanly developed instrument for religious activity. And in these communities you will see emerge all of the flawed thinking and behavior that you can find in any other religious or secular community of people.
That is all the COGs are. Small, backwater aggregations of people who want to do something together and have selected Millerism as their brand. They are nothing to be afraid of - just like the other Millerites before them. In fact, most of them are a little comedic in their pompous absurdity.
It is important to understand that Millerism is not Christianity. And the COGs are not each the "one and only true church" as they all profess. They are just modern organizational incarnations of Millerism. HWA added his twist just like Vernon Howell added his twist. The twists are not that different. The kind of people attracted to these twists are not that different. Their ultimate outcome has not been that different.
Which organization or organizational leader is the most authentic? It depends on what you personally believe Christianity to be. I see some denominations to be closer than others. The COGs are in a far distant orbit - like way beyond Pluto, out there where the dark prevails and conditions are wholly inimical to life.
Ron Dart was exception to the WCG rule. He knew scripture, loved God and Jesus and had the ability to teach and preach. Dare I say he was a authentic Christian. Too few to be found sadly.
ReplyDelete"Vic Kubik, Clyde Kilough, Jim Franks, who connived and conspired while on WCG payroll to start a new church guaranteeing themselves and their cronies
ReplyDeletea perpetual income stream."
This charge is constantly repeated on this blog, ignoring that the Tkach group was paid by loyal members, while conspiring and lying for years the high jacking of WWCG. If the Tkach's had an ounce of integrity, they would just left WWCG and joined a local Protestant church.
You don’t think that as a matter of conscience, when truth was shown to the Tkaches, they repented and attempted to make the appropriate corrections? As nearly as I can discern, their chief mistake was to apply HWA’s dictatorial government from the top down managerial style to enforcing the corrections. They put the new wine into old wineskins, attempted to force the members to drink it, and it burst assunder.
DeleteBB
Yep, religion is bad, as is those who are "expert" in condemnation i.e. this blog.
ReplyDeleteAs I've said before, Armstrong plagiarized, lied, stole etc. but what most of you people commenting here and on other anti-cog sites forget, you are among the ones who made WCG the judgmental, hypocritical organization that it was.
I left the WCG 26 years ago, before most of you I'm willing to bet. Guess who judged me for leaving? People like you.
26 years not being a member of any cog organization and I still keep the Sabbath and feast days. Not because of Armstrong, not because any man tells me I have to in order "to be in the club" but because that's what the bible teaches.
I'm not going to get into a Sabbath debate, nor an atheist/christian debate with any of you. I'm merely pointing out that what you are condemning is what you still are, judgemental and arrogant.
K.M.
To Anon 8:53 AM,
ReplyDeleteWhat you say rings with truth for me. Thank you.
To nck, I too love the singing and expressive dance of black worshipers. Sadly I know just what you mean about "turn it off cause it's too emotional". It always makes me wonder if those that react that way have ANY capacity for any feelings at all.
I love the expression of true emotion and feeling and freedom to do so in the black community. That to me is what praise is all about. Not the stuffy assed, get it over with quick practice of the ACOG's. The ACOG's praise or singing of psalms, for me, could only be endured like a trip to the dentist to get a tooth pulled. It was painful. No feeling at all and sung far too fast for any meaning.
Hey NEO.
ReplyDeleteNow that you mention christianity.
What brand of christianity did the people death marching the native americans or enslaving the black peoples adhere to actually?
Cant be the armstrongites since they only organized themselves a hundred years later, so I learn.
Nck
My point NEO. The way you exclude armstrongism from christianity exactly matches hwa) exonerating it fir all previous evil. A huge free pass you handed out.
ReplyDeleteNck
KM -
ReplyDeletenot debating you on the Sabbath, or the Holy Days - or atheism and Christianity. If that is what you choose to do, more power to you.
I do have to say that I admire your selective reasoning, however. You say you keep the Sabbath and Holy Days because that's what "The Bible Teaches".
Fair enough.
I do want to, in all fairness, point out that in those same scriptures that teach on the Sabbath and Holy Days, in fact, the same chapters and books even, there is a lot more the Bible teaches that you do not do. I won't get into the specifics, because I am sure you are well read and versed on what they are. Without the influence of Armstrong, nor of any man - I wonder how it is that you have interpreted how it is you "observe" these ceremonies and rituals correctly. I am curious how, without Armstrong or any man's teachings, you have interpreted what parts of what the Bible teaches are for you to do and what parts you are not to do. There's a lot involved in Holy Day and Sabbath Keeping, if one is to simply read what the Bible teaches in the Old Covenant - but hey, whatever - if it makes you happy in your relationship with God, more power to you. I am just having some difficulty understanding exactly who you parse out, divide, and separate what "The Bible Teaches" applies to you, and what does not apply to you. Because anyone can use that same argument, interpret it their own way, and start their own brand new religion, just like Herbert did.
Not really expecting an answer, or a Sabbath debate. Just scratching my head at your interpretation of what the Bible Teaches when it comes to the OT, since you say it's not what Armstrong or any man teaches - and the Bible teaches SO MUCH about specifics and exacts about keeping those observances. Enjoy your day.
"If the Tkach's had an ounce of integrity, they would just left WWCG and joined a local Protestant church."
ReplyDeleteI for one am glad they didn't, they exposed idolatry so well. Those who worshipped the man in charge, the organization and the "clergy" class either accepted the changes because after all "this is God's one true church" or started another cog with another man/men to worship.
To hell with the teachings which we had supposedly proven to ourselves back when HWA, the WCG or its hirelings were absolutely nothing to us.
Yes, many of the ones so adamant against the acog's are the very ones that I'm referring to!
Anon. 11:01
ReplyDeleteNo need to scratch your head. If you didn't understand why we kept the sabbath and feast days in the WCG then you'll never understand what I have to say.
We were never taught that we were under the old Mt. Sinai covenant and I've told plenty that if they keep the sabbath because of the 4th commandment then they are under that covenant for the ten utterances are the words of that covenant.
Jesus however said the sabbath was made for man however you want to take that.
As for feast days all I need do is point to Zech. 14. Take that how you will too, I don't care.
One thing that I do care though is if you want to discuss intellectual ly, quit bringing up the old covenant. Both the sabbath and feasts existed before both. Unless you want to argue the transliterated Hebrew shabath and shabbath have no commpnality. Gen. 1:14
K.M.
I really get a kick out of anyone who thinks that prior to HWA or the WCG that no one kept the feast days. I know they probably don't really think that but the impression one gets by the way the questions are asked is that's what they think.
ReplyDeleteYes, before HWA, people kept the feast days. As I said before, nothing original from him.
KM
BB
ReplyDeleteI don't think so at all.
I think a lot of it was done out of sheer evil hatred without any concern for the "church of support system or human beings constituting that system.
There is overwhelming proof of that. For instance the treatment Dennis got. Their lavish salaries in the midst of terminating ministers who had served 5 times longer than little joey tkach with 2 weeks severance. No pension fund. No information on the proceeds of the sale of all that real estate.
The incredible lies about Tkach sr past in the navy.
Even if they told the truth about christianity I have not seen more evil people in wcg ever like the Tkaches or the Schnipperts. Horrific compared to HWA who at least believed his shit.
nck
I do however fault HWA for handing over 100 percent control of the corporation to a bunch of litteral illiterates.
ReplyDeleteWcg was doomed because of hwas prejudices and faulty understanding of what constitutes governance. But I do hate the tkach total mismanagement and squandering and lies more. I will never forgive the lies on wwII past of senior in the pacific. What an incredible loser he was.
Nck
Nck
ReplyDeleteNo pension fund? There was nothing to stop them saving for the future. The ministers were treated with kid gloves and treated like royalty by the members. And extremely well paid considering their workload. People at Walmart work much harder, and at a fraction of their pay. As a group, they are spoilt. I have no sympathy for them.
I would so love to be a fly on the wall, observing these former ministers truly earning their pay as street cleaners or window washers.
1:07 Yeah true, the fund is a weak spot in my rant. It was more kind of an example of the careless execution and lack of financial transparancy in their execution.
DeleteI was trigerred by the "perhaps ot was good comment". Even if the transition was of god than it can be compared to ike giving the command for d day during huge winter storms and no planning. A disaster by all standards..."but we did get to liberate them"......
But hey, lots of companies suffer during transition from founder to new management, its a science. Especially transitioning to a new product. Their new product however was freely available anywhere and a lot cheaper too, securing a descend into oblivion. Which could be a purpose in itself.....no need to confirm guys...
Nck
"Ron Dart was exception to the WCG rule. He knew scripture, loved God and Jesus and had the ability to teach and preach. Dare I say he was a authentic Christian. Too few to be found sadly."
ReplyDeleteRon Dart's "Where is Your Petra" sermon, among many others, is what woke me back in 1990 to the WCG "only true church" crap.
Went to many of CEM's feasts, but Ron was just a man.
K.M.
"I would so love to be a fly on the wall, observing these former ministers truly earning their pay as street cleaners or window washers."
ReplyDeleteAmen, but to call them ministers is a stretch. Hirelings!
K.M.
KM,
ReplyDeleteNot saying you are wrong but I'm interested in who kept the Feast Days?
You can keep replicas of the Holy Days for nostalgia purposes, but with all of the calendar confusion, nobody really knows as a certainty when they really are. At some point, educated guesses have been made by all. If you just throw up your hands and go by the Hebrew calendar, then you’re admitting that this is year 5778, losing the British Israel-based end times for another couple hundred years. By that time, Anglo-Saxon white people will have been largely assimilated.
DeleteKind of cool when you think about it. God has made it so you can’t keep a savior-accessorized Old Covenant.
BB
"Dumbhead said...
ReplyDeleteKM,
Not saying you are wrong but I'm interested in who kept the Feast Days?"
Are you serious? Have you not read 1 Cor. 5?
Of course the plain statement "Let us keep the feast" has been twisted so many ways that you can pick which explanation that you want.
I'll go with the obvious.
KM
"You can keep replicas of the Holy Days for nostalgia purposes, but with all of the calendar confusion,"
ReplyDeleteAnd those of us who keep the days are the legalists? The above statement reeks of legalism.
Yeah, many who keep the days get caught up in the argument about which calendar, that too is legalism. I personally don't give a shit.
I personally think the Karaite calendar is the closest to the original but I generally use the calculated because that is when the majority get together.
I've actually used one calendar for one feast day and different for another feast day and no, didn't feel the need to keep both at the same time.
I know this will be considered strange and wrong by legalists, but I don't care.
As I've stated earlier, the ones doing the condemning on this site are the very judgmental, arrogant damnable folk who made the WCG a cult. They are just like their previous god (little g :-) HWA. They think they are enlightened. How laughable!
KM
Regarding the correct calendar timing for the holy days, KM, it’s not us applying the legalism. Remember, during the eras of the portable temple, and the first temple, if the high priest entered the holy of holies on the wrong day, he would be struck dead. Based on the story of Uzza, God was still enforcing all of the rituals surrounding the elements of the holy of holies during the time of David.
DeleteGoing by Biblical standards, it’s worse to get the holy days wrong than to not observe them at all. Are you sure you want to play musical calendars?
BB
"KM,
ReplyDeleteNot saying you are wrong but I'm interested in who kept the Feast Days?"
If you mean who kept them prior to Herbie, had you never heard of G.G. Rupert?
Also, google this phrase:
"Exposing the Skeleton in the SDA Closet"
You'll find that even in 1888 there were people teaching the feast days.
KM
"Kind of cool when you think about it. God has made it so you can’t keep a savior-accessorized Old Covenant.
ReplyDeleteBB"
Bob, I know you're not an ignorant man, but comments like this makes one wonder. Really, what was the purpose?
While I know many of the hirelings didn't really understand, and basically taught an old covenant version of the sabbath and feast days, but that wasn't really the correct teaching of the wcg.
Admittedly the wcg was all over the place in explaining the law. To most the added law of Gal. 3 was merely the ceremonial law. That was wrong. The added law was the whole kit and caboodle. All of it, the law was added as an additional conditional covenant (Mt. Sinai cov.) alongside the Promise covenant until Christ came.
The confusion lies in the misconception that this was when the law originated. Not the case. Gen. 26:5 shows God's law existed long before Mt. Sinai.
However, prior to Sinai the sole purpose of the law was to show what was sin. At Sinai the law became conditional, you had to keep it to remain in covenant with God.
Today that is not the case. The law is not a condition of the New Covenant in Christ's blood, the law has gone back to its original purpose, to show us what is sin.
Now, if we break the law we go to Christ, ask forgiveness per 1 John and we're forgiven. This isn't a license to sin, nor is it a legalistic "if you break it you're done" impossible situation.
Now of course the legalist will claim "you better not forget one sin when you ask forgiveness" but that is the legalist's problem, not mine.
Now it's about the heart and only God knows the heart.
Can one break the law and have a sincere heart? Yep. Can one keep the law and have a lying heart? Yep.
This is where the calendar and many other legalistic questions come into play. The legalist is dogmatic, the one obeying from the heart just does their best, not condemning others.
Therein lies the difference in the beast.
Kevin McMillen
I agree wiyh much of what you just stated, Kevin. The problem is that Armstrongism taught us from the legalistic standpoint. Since the purpose of this blog is to expose and discuss Armstrongism, their views are what we attack and dispel.
DeleteThere were varying covenants before the Old Covenant. Armstrongism never knew of or taught Noahide law. They assumed that Mt. Sinai simply reiterated what God had taught Adam and Eve. St. Paul disagrees.
BB
Just a reminder that the existence of Satan and his demons means that the law predates planet earth. Don't be judgmental? Well, I look down upon rapists, slanders, murderers, thieves etc. If life is precious, destructive behavior needs to be frowned on.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ukapologetics.net/09/whichlaws.htm
ReplyDelete".....[noahide law, edited for space....
1. God blessed Noah and his sons, and told them to populate the earth [9:1]
2. Placed all plants and animals under human command [9:2-3]
3. Forbade the eating meat with the blood still in it [9:4]
4. Murder was forbidden [9:5]
5. Humankind were commanded to shed the blood of those who shed blood [9:6]
6. The Lord promised that he would never again destroy all life on earth by a flood [9:11]
7. The Lord created the rainbow as the sign of this covenant for all ages to come [9:12-17]
However, these laws are sometimes listed differently.......[edited for space]
In 'The Noahide Laws,' Jeffrey Spitzer offers us this further information:
The children of Noah were commanded with seven commandments: [to establish] laws, and [to prohibit] cursing God, idolatry, illicit sexuality, bloodshed, robbery, and eating flesh from a living animal (Sanhedrin 56a; cf. Tosefta Avodah Zarah 8:4 and Genesis Rabbah 34:8). Source:https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-noahide-laws/
Any possible differences here should not bother anyone since everything is complimentary, also, points 6-7 in the first listing are divine promises rather than laws. In the same manner, the 'Law of Christ' (Sermon on the mount, Matthew 5-7) can never have listed and numbered points but should be written on the heart.
In the Book of Acts, we see the Jerusalem Conference of around AD50 applying these principles to all Gentiles who were coming to Christ:
24. We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.
25. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul—
26. men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing.
28. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:
29. You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell. (Acts 15:24-29).
Galatians 3 clearly shows us - not only that this is not a reference to the Mosaic law package (Galatians 3:17) - but also highlights for us the supremacy of the covenant with Abraham which was based on faith, it is closer to the present Christian walk in faith under the New Covenant. Please read the entire Scripture which follows:
Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no-one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
(Galatians 3: 6-14, NIV).
So let us be in no doubt that the blessing of Abraham, now inherited by Christians, is a greater blessing than the Old Covenant laws and regulations. "
He never taught Noahide laws because they were irrelevant. I'm not defending him so don't come to the wrong conclusion.
ReplyDeleteYou are wrong when you say:
"They assumed that Mt. Sinai simply reiterated what God had taught Adam and Eve. "
It was never taught that the exact same system was taught Adam and Eve. Anyone who taught that was teaching his own ideas.
Sure, it was taught that God taught them about the sabbath, feasts, clean unclean, etc. etc. but that's far from the exact same system.
Gen. chapters 1 through 7 was not a "systematic theology project" stating everything that God expected, anyone who believes this is foolish.
Anyone honest with the bible should see that gentiles kept the feasts per 1 Cor. 5:8 and though most try to pervert Col. 2:16, 17 this actually proves they were keeping the sabbath and feasts.
As I said, I'm not going to waste my time debating this. I explained the law in simple to understand terms. If you want to disagree fine, but don't tell me it's not biblical.
Again, the simple explanation, God's law for man has existed from the garden, it showed mankind what was sin.
The law was added alongside the Promise til the Seed, Christ. Couldn't add the law to the Promise so it had to be an additional covenant. That added, Mt. Sinai conditional law ended at the cross, but the law still reveals what is sin.
Though I have no respect for HWA, he was sure right when he said at the 85 or 86 feast that over half just don't get it.
If you don't understand the law, you don't understand the bible. Without the law there is no need for grace, no need for Christ's sacrifice. If Christ did away with the law at Calvary then I'm not a sinner, I have never sinned, and I have no need for a Savior.
Fortunately, he didn't do away with the law, he made a way to escape the laws demand of death.
KM
"Going by Biblical standards, it’s worse to get the holy days wrong than to not observe them at all. Are you sure you want to play musical calendars?"
ReplyDeleteBob, deny being a legalist all that you want, your posts speak volumes.
"Going by Biblical standards"?
You quoted Mt. Sinai covenant standards above, which is a small portion of biblical standards, 1500 years out of how many?
As I said, volumes.
KM
I knew you’d have an excuse, plumber! I stand by my original statement that if you don’t keep these holy days on the correct day, you’re just keeping a replica or tribute. If you want to be a legalist, be a legalist the way in which the legalism itself instructs you. I personally believe that these days have been fulfilled by Jesus, and are no longer required to gain salvation. Your practice of switching calendars is what speaks volumes here.
DeleteI have no interest in replaying our discussions from several years ago on the Silenced blog. You really did not have anything new, substantive or worthwhile to contribute on that occasion, either.
Bye.
BB
Plumber?
ReplyDeleteAs far as our discussions on the silenced blog, you may think I had/have nothing substantive to say, but I did challenge all of you there on why are you wasting your life dwelling on Armstrong and it wasn't long after the blog finally shut down.
Your rants on these blogs serve no good. Some people are looking for a guru to lead them, you're not going to stop Flurry, Malm, Pack, Theil, etc.
Those who spend so much of their lives on these blogs remind me of the nerd computer gamers living in mommy and daddy's basement. Pathetic!
Feel free to maintain your original claim, in part it's true, yet you all still accuse us of being old covenant while acknowledging we don't keep the sabbath, feasts, etc. by old covenant rules. If you really understood what was taught in WCG you'd know it's the old covenant that was the "replica" of God's original law.
We don't keep the replica, we keep the original. I know you'll disagree but that's fine, you don't understand. The proof is in your calling me the legalist, but you don't like me playing fast and loose with the calendar. I maintain that you Bob are the blind legalist.
"required to gain salvation" Bob, Bob,Bob, again you're forcing me to question your intelligence. When have you heard me say they are required for salvation? They are no more "required for salvation" than fidelity to ones wife is required for salvation. If one cheats on his wife and afterward truly repents, his salvation is still secure. But we still have to consider, what if he doesn't repent. Did his prior fidelity earn him salvation, then he loses salvation because of infidelity? Tell me Bob, is that also legalism?
Does obeying the "New Covenant" "Law of Love" earn you salvation? The entire strawman argument of what's required for salvation is a fools argument. Surely you understand this Bob.
As for switching calendars, you're damn quick to judge. When I did it, it was because I wanted to meet with two different groups. One kept one calendar and the other a different. I kept day one with one group and day eight for me but seven for them with the other group. The reason was for fellowship, which is much more important than letter of the law obedience thus proving you're the legalist for showing so much derision in this.
I'm actually a little disappointed, I was hoping someone would challenge me on my claim that Col. 2:16,17 proves the Colossian Christians were keeping the Sabbath and feasts. Protestants love to use this as proof against the Sabbath and feasts but they never explain just who was it that were judging the Colossians and for what.
If they were being judged for not keeping these days, who was judging them? Before you say the Jews, why would Jews judge uncircumcised gentiles for not keeping "their" days? The Jews would expect them to be circumcised first before keeping them. Yet, Paul doesn't say "don't let anyone judge you for not being circumcised".
The Jews were not judging uncircumcised gentiles for not keeping the Sabbath and feasts, it would make no sense.
On the other hand, if the uncircumcised Colossians were keeping the sabbath and feasts, now that would be a reason for the Jews to judge. They would judge them on not being circumcised and still keeping the days. They'd judge them for not obeying the "traditions of the elders" on how to observe the days.
The very scripture that Protestants use against the days actually proves they were keeping them if one thinks the situation through.
Kevin McMillen
Bob,
ReplyDeleteI'm also interested in your explanation of just how Jesus fulfilled Trumpets, Tabernacles and the Eighth day?
Seeing that by Jesus' very own words it seems even the Passover hasn't been completely fulfilled yet.
Luk 22:15 - And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer
Luk 22:16 - For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
I'm sure you're going to try and force the kingdom of God began at Jesus' resurrection as an answer, but if so just where is Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc.?
Luk 13:28 - There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
The idea that Jesus' fulfilled the feast days is a lie. Paul, some 30 years after Jesus' death and resurrection, even said that they "are" present tense, shadows (you like replicas so let's go with that) of things to "come" future tense.
30 some odd years after Jesus, the sabbath and feasts "are" replicas of things to "come" in the future.
Feel free to keep telling yourself they've been fulfilled but I'm not the one you're lying to. You have no biblical evidence of this, only sweet emotions.
KM
Do Jews allow uncircumcised gentiles to keep the sabbath?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.mesora.org/GerToshav.htm
There is no doubt, Jews would not judge uncircumcised gentiles for not keeping the sabbath. Nor would other gentiles judge.
But, if the uncircumcised kept the sabbath, Jews would most definately judge them as would other gentiles. "Why do you keep those Jewish days" the gentiles would ask.
Twist Col. 2 all you like, the Colossians had to have been keeping the sabbath and feasts for it to make sense.
Considering gentile Corinthians were keeping the feasts too, 1 Cor. 5:8 anti-sabbath and anti-feast arguments are senseless.
KM
Kevin. I have commented also on how legalist and phariseeic the "dissidents" comment on what an armstrongist constitutes in their opinion.
ReplyDeletePerhapa they do understand spirituality now through a different route or path, thats great. What is clear is that they never understood what wcg taught, which is fine too, although they profess they do.
I see your point Kevin. I wished the flurryites or packites would just remember like you do and discard of the yoke that is placed on them.
Nck
Blah, blah, blah. There’s always someone who wants to divorce HWA from Armstrongism, repackage it all, and attempt to resell it to us, insulting our intelligence along the way. Armstrongism, with or without HWA, produces awful fruits and ruins lives. The doctrines cause the evil leadership, a fact which blind tests have verified over, and over, and over.
ReplyDeleteSorry, Kevin. I work between 40 and 60 hours per week, and don’t have the time or the interest to have one more go at this. You can’t educate me around to your points of view anyway. If anyone would have had a chance at doing so, it would have been our late friend Mr. Ian Boyne, whose intellect and approach I actually did respect. But, you are no Ian Boyne!
BB out. Any other takers for Kevin?
Thanks for the comment Nck. I understand the hatred for anything Armstrong on here, his empire was evil. The whole damn system. But that doesn't mean every doctrine was evil or wrong. As I've said before, nothing that Herbie contrived was original.
ReplyDeleteI grew up in WCG. My dad started in 1967 when I was two years old. I was 27 in 1991 when I finally woke up to the cult and the idolatry. I read The Tangled Web, Ambassador Report, etc.
As I've said, I still keep the sabbath and feasts because I see strong biblical support for them. I read all the anti-cog stuff that I can because that's how I stay centered.
I know the anti-sabbath/feasts arguments. I know the partial truths that are told by dissidents. Like how we had to give 30% of our income for Herbie to live in style. The truth, yep ol' Herbie the thief lived in style. The cult taught three tithes, but 30% didn't go to ol Herbie. 10% was used for the feasts. Yes, they stole tithe of tithe and excess, but that still doesn't make the 30% figure true.
30% was only partially true every three years. One sent Herbie 20%, kept 10% for feasts, and sent what was left to the thief. Bad enough but still not 30% as I've read on some dissidents sites.
In fact third tithe was one of the things that I brought up to the local hireling in Feb. 1992 when I quit but he still had to come up to my house so he could make it look like he kicked me out.
The church made almost 200 million dollars in 1991 and 7 million was allotted for assistance. I asked the hireling where did the rest go.
200 million, if only 100 million was first tithe then they should have gotten over 33 million in third tithe. 7 million vs. 33 million at least. Can we say fancy furniture for the hirelings? Swimming pools etc.?
Believe me, the last impression that I ever want to give is that I support Herbie, or any of his hireling clergy class.
Imagine a 60 year old man having to call a 26 year old fresh out of A.C. mister. That's bullshit!
Yep, I still keep the sabbath and feasts but I bet I've been kicked out of more cog's than most here. Hell, I even had a few major disagreements with Ron Dart and I think he was the best teacher in the cog.
KM
"If anyone would have had a chance at doing so, it would have been our late friend Mr. Ian Boyne, whose intellect and approach I actually did respect. But, you are no Ian Boyne!"
ReplyDeleteNope, I'm no Ian Boyne, I was smart enough to leave CGI when the "leadership" were too afraid to tell Ted that he could attend services but not speak.
If you want to go the intellect route, sign in to Mensa go to the membership list and look me up. I really do hate to bring that up but you are the one that alluded that my intellect was less than Ian's.
Yeah, yeah, I know that I questioned yours first but your comments gave me good reason to and another comment of yours, blaming Trump for separating families, now that one really makes me wonder. Was it Trump or the parents who placed the kids in that situation?
Seeking asylum? From what? Poverty? Evil regimes? How many in Africa would love to do the same, but they would have a tougher walk. Might drown after all.
I'm sure your real reasons are to bring in more liberal voters.
Before you call me a Trumptard I was for a Carson/Fiorina ticket. Also, before you call me Rush or Faux news brainwashed I listen to liberal talk radio as often as I can put up with Stephanie Miller, Thom Hartmann or Randi Rhodes. Admittedly I can handle their crap about as much as anti-union worker Limbaugh, very little.
No Bob, you aint as smart as you's thinks you are.
KM
I'm amazed that Bob holds a man who held a yearly speaking competition, giving the winner the Herbert W. Armstrong award, in such high esteem.
ReplyDeleteI really think Bob realized he had nothing further "substantive" to argue so he went unsuccessfully to attack mode.
Come on Bob, how did Jesus fulfill Trumpets, Tabernacles and the Eighth day? Who was judging the Colossians and why?
Also, if you can, how is sabbath and feast keeping Armstrongism if they were kept well before Armstrong ever lived? I see you refused to read Exposing the Skeleton in the SDA Closet. Yeah I know, a lot of adventist mumbo jumbo, but the last 5 or so pages show that at least 50 years before Herbie the sabbath and feasts were being taught.
Forget the facts though, Bob resorts to ad hominem attacks.
Kevin McMillen
Based on our brief exposure to your writings, Kevo, I’d estimate your IQ at about 125-130. Most individuals in the 140 range and northwards have an instantly perceivable aura of effortless superiority, and allow that to speak for them. They would not feel a need to brag to an internet discussion group of their MENSA membership, because they are also quite secure in their intellect.
ReplyDeleteAll you have to do is log on to Mensa's site to find out.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I wasn't bragging, Bob questioned my intellect as compared to Ian. Ian was a Journalist. Very experienced in writing, I'm not.
I seriously doubt Bob or any others on here can wire an entire house, let alone build one by themselves.
A person with an IQ of 115 is able to get an English degree and have the ability to write well. I merely have a High School diploma, but none of you have shown any ability to contradict what I've said about the sabbath and feasts. You resort to ad hominem attacks.
Your "superior aura" impresses no one!
Come on anonymous 7:57 whomever you are, just how did Jesus fulfill Trumpets, Tabernacles and the Eighth day? Just who was it who were judging the Colossians? Why? Because they weren't keeping the days or because they were?
A High School graduate making a fool out of you all. Kinda funny.
KM
Oh, Kevin. There are three memorable intellects whom I've encountered on these boards since Y2K: Douglas Becker, Ian Boyne, and Casey Wohlberg. Whether one agreed or not, while they participated, each was capable of articulating unique perspectives. Obviously, there have been some other smart cookies along the way who have offered great discussion. On quite the opposite end of the spectrum, the individuals who have been the most boring are those who constantly bring up the foundational issues which have been asked and answered so many times, imagining that they have a new wrinkle, or the persuasive powers to make the rest of us "get it". You are not only one of these, but are also a manipulative intimidator, attempting to coerce us into a useless discussion of regressive ideas which have long since receded into ennui. The Hitler guy does this too, whenever he's able to accidentally sneak through.
ReplyDeletePerhaps someone will jump in and discuss your agenda with you. Or this might not be the blog for you. In any case, good luck.
BB
BB,
ReplyDeleteInteresting. How many times are you going to "end the discussion" without any evidence, other than fancy words, that you actually know what you're talking about?
Bob, whether you like it or not it doesn't take intellect to get proficient with words. I'm willing to bet that the average Journalist has a 115 IQ, yet out of a desire to appear "intellectual" they b.s. with an endless amount of words.
On this thread it's been called a superior aura, memorable intellect, etc. I say it's above average, intelligent people trying to bullshit everyone into thinking they're smarter than what they really are.
No, you're not stupid, but you're not the superior intellect that you think that you are just because you've had the time and opportunity to learn how to put together a bunch of words. Working in Business Services I assume one would have to get proficient with words.
That proves nothing Bob, but if it makes you feel superior, that you've had the opportunity to go to college, work a job which demanded a decent usage of the language, then have at it.
I'm just a down to earth, say what I'm thinking, honest, no desire to bullshit anyone, guy. I'm not highly educated, but seeing that I'm only the second in four generations of my family that even graduated High School, I'm proud of what I've accomplished and male appendages like you are irrelevant.
I was born and raised in most likely the poorest state in the country. My maternal grandfather had to quit school in the second grade to work in the coal mines. My mother and other grandparents only went to eighth grade. Only my father graduated High School, then myself and two sisters.then
Both my kids however are college graduates and my daughter has her PhD.
Add to all that a deaf father and being raised in the WCG cult where ones youth is definately hampered, I think I've probably overcame more challenges than most.
I'm not complaining, I'm just pointing out that you haven't a clue between people bullshitting to make themselves seem intelligent and real intelligent people who don't give a damn what you and others think of them.others
You're the one who said that Jesus fulfilled the feasts yet you've given nothing to back up your statement except a bunch of self aggrandizing words.
As I said in a previous post. You're pathetic!
KM
"Perhaps someone will jump in and discuss your agenda with you. Or this might not be the blog for you. In any case, good luck."
ReplyDeleteBob,
You might want to go back through this thread to see who really has an agenda.
I merely stated in the beginning that I still kept the sabbath and feasts. I wasn't pressing for a debate. It was you who challenged me on the "replicas".....
Get your story straight Mr. Intellectual! LOL
KM
Intelligence is like a game of poker, some think it's the cards you're dealt that makes you "superior" to others.
ReplyDeleteThey like to assume that the full house that they were dealt makes them special. The reality is that true intelligence is determined by how you play the hand you're dealt not the superiority of the hand.
If I with a pair in the course of play am able to get you to fold your full house, who's really superior?
Play all the mind games that you want, tell yourself what you will, the facts play out in the end.
KM
Wire a house? A house??? You would literally shit, my friend, if you saw the wiring, electronics, boards, and controls in the machine systems that I install, get communicating, tune and optimize and repair on a daily basis for my customers. For our systems, I've got to intimately know the mechanics, electronics, hydraulics, pneumatics, magnetics, high temp heaters, and computer, often pulling latest versions of firmware from the factory website and dowloading it on the boards and converter boxes of up to five different machines that make up a system. I've got to install and maintain the computer on these systems, know and work with the various versions of Windows on those computers, as well as installing, knowing and teaching the various versions of the proprietary operating software for our systems, troubleshooting and debugging. Sometimes, I've got many types of power just on one MC Unit, AC and DC, plus inverters to convert single phase 220 VAC to three phase. I've got various types of motors, sometimes up to 25 of them on one machine, various types of relays, breakers, fuses, limit switches and sensors. Stroboscopic sensors and encoders that count tics, fiber optic and ultrasonic sensors, infra-red sensors, proximity sensors. I've got peristaltic pumps and UV and IR curing lamps and lights on our coaters and printers. These are often in carefully controlled environments, not only thermostatically, but also humidistatically, with outgassing of the manufacturing process monitored and controlled as well. I train the in house factory technicians and engineers at some of the larger companies who are my customers, and come down to a more mundane level for the mom and pop shops. My work is not just confined to installation and repair of the equipment. I also mentor and train the sales people who sell the equipment to the customers.
ReplyDeleteWonder why I never discuss the stuff I do at work?
BB
The difference Bob is that I never seriously questioned your intelligence. In fact one of the first things that I said to you was that I know you're not an ignorant man.
ReplyDeleteI merely questioned the intelligence of a few of your comments. Smart people sometimes make stupid comments.
Yes, a house. Have you ever built a house from footer to ridge vent all by yourself? You can belittle plumbers or bricklayers or carpenters all that you want if that's what makes you feel better about yourself, but in the grand scheme of things, the trades have been more needed by society than your computer boards and such.
I'm not meaning to belittle what you do, I do find it impressive, what I don't like is the arrogant asshole that you present yourself as.
KM
Ever think that maybe what you’re getting is a flashback of how you presented yourself in the discussions at “Silenced”. The minute I saw your name a couple days ago, and read a couple of your posts, I said to myself “Oh brother! This dude is back, and he hasn’t changed a bit!”
DeleteBut, seriously. I wouldn’t even indulge in discussing the issues you are raising if we had actually hit it off well.
For the record, my favorite next door neighbors are in the construction trade. Also, I actually do do all my own wiriing, plumbing, landscaping, painting, roofing, air conditioning repair, TV and appliance repair, all other home repairs, and all the work on my cars and motorcycles as my normal hobby set. I’ve never built a house from scratch, but yes, if I wanted to, I could study the codes, pull my two lines of 108 or 120 to get my 220 to 240 for range, dryer, AC, and hot water heater, and my 108 or 120 for lights, fans, outlets and irrigation system, run it all properly through a carefully selected and properly rated breaker box, pull the wires thru the conduits or run conduit to the outlets, add solar panels, put in a wifi controller and security system including motion detectors and cameras, smoke detectors and fire suppression system. My son and I tiled the front rooms of my house, but when I replace the carpeting in the remaining rooms, I’ll probably have that laid by professionals. I have a guy with a crane trim my 40 foot palm tree because about three years ago, it became so tall that it was difficult to balance myself on the roof with an extended saw to cut off last season’s fronds. Although I’ve rebuilt automatic transmissions in the past, I did have AAMCO do the tranny on my late model Chevy.
Other than that, it’s all been on me. It’s how I’ve always roled.
BB
To all of the other readers. Kevin wants to discuss theology. I don't. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Was even the moderator for the Bible discussion folder on another site about ten years ago. Got burned out when one old guy wasted all of our time monopolizing the discussions with his "one God" Jesus as a created being theories for years. Several of us burned the midnight oil, spending hours deeply researching the topic, disproving his heresies and twistings, but it all went nowhere. If he's still alive, he's most likely maintaining and supporting his original theories. Stubborn, stubborn, and very boring man. The eventual consequence was that that formerly vibrant forum died, Gary started this blog, and many of us moved here along with him.
ReplyDeleteBB