photo scanned by SHT
While church members around the world worried about the time of our eminent fleeing to Petra, Garner Ted and others in Pasadena knew nothing was happening and made fun of it all. The dumb sheep were easy to mock.
I always find it interesting to read COG apologist who will get on their soap boxes and vehemently deny the church ever set dates. Those men are liars, plain and simple.
I have related here before how the ministry int he Dayton, Ohio church revealed a timeline down to the month we would be fleeing. It was at a combined service with Columbus that this all went down. It had to be at a holy day service because we were instructed to arrive back on time for the afternoon service as the doors were to be locked at a certain time and anyone left outside would not be permitted in. This was supposed to prohibit unconverted ears from hearing what was about to go down.
We arrived back and the minister had a large blackboard on stage. He proceeded to map out in detail the timeline for the date for us to flee to Petra, down to the month, the week, then day. My mother copied this down precisely, as she was the one who typed up all the sermons and gave them to the tape library to hand out each week at church.
As the weeks and months went by, my mother crossed each one off. She had posted this inside the kitchen cupboard so that wandering eyes of neighbors, or the police would not see it. I remember her mentioning hiding it from the police. It was a well-known fact that Satan would send the police to try and stop us all from fleeing.
This epic prophetic failure disqualified Herbert Armstrong and every single evangelist, and minister that promoted it. Scripture tells us that all one need to be a false prophet is to have ONE prophecy fail and they are not to be trusted after that.
As we all know by now, in 2018, the Church of God is filled to the brim with lying fools like Weinland, Pack, Flurry, Thiel, Malm, and others who continue to set dates and then have to refigure those dates to fit their epic failures.
20 "But any prophet who fakes it, who claims to speak in my name something I haven't commanded him to say, or speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die."
21 You may be wondering among yourselves, "How can we tell the difference, whether it was God who spoke or not?" Here's how:
22 If what the prophet spoke in God's name doesn't happen, then obviously God wasn't behind it; the prophet made it up. Forget about him. Deuteronomy 18:20-22
1 God's Message came to me:
2 "Son of man, preach against the prophets of Israel who are making things up out of their own heads and calling it 'prophesying.'
3 God, the Master, pronounces doom on the empty-headed prophets who do their own thing and know nothing of what's going on!
4 Your prophets, Israel, are like jackals scavenging through the ruins.
5 They haven't lifted a finger to repair the defenses of the city and have risked nothing to help Israel stand on God's Day of Judgment.
6 All they do is fantasize comforting illusions and preach lying sermons. They say 'God says . . .' when God hasn't so much as breathed in their direction. And yet they stand around thinking that something they said is going to happen.
7 "Haven't you fantasized sheer nonsense? Aren't your sermons tissues of lies, saying 'God says . . .' when I've done nothing of the kind? Ezekiel 13:1-7
The vermin, the false teachers, the bastardizers of the law, and the self-appointed who have set themselves up as church leaders and prophets have proven to all be liars. None of them deserves to be followed.
But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death. Deuteronomy 18:20-22
NO2HWA wrote the article. The image seen here was sent to him by me. Just a clarification for the record.
ReplyDelete-SHT
NO2HWA and SHT wrote:" I always find it interesting to read COG apologist who will get on their soap boxes and vehemently deny the church ever set dates. Those men are liars, plain and simple".
ReplyDeleteMY COMMENT - Anyone who says Herbert W. Armstrong and the WCG DIDN'T set dates is a liar and the truth is not with them. I am a living witness.
The entire Armstrong 1972/1975 in Prophecy timeline was well stated from the pulpit, and by Herbert Armstrong himself. After prior failed prophecies in the 1930s and 1940s during Hitler and Mussolini's rise, Armstrong's new prophetic timeline emerged in the 1950s with it starting in the first week of January 1934 when the Radio Church of God went on the air on KORE Oregon radio. Exactly 19 years later (one 19 year time cycle), the Radio Church of God broadcast went to all of Europe in the first week of January 1953. The second 19-year time cycle ended the first week in January 1972 when the work was to be completed; the Philadelphians were to flee to Petra Place of Safety, and the Germans were to attack America during that first week of January starting the dreaded 3-1/2 year Great Tribulation. Jesus Christ was to return in the fall of 1975 - widely believed in the Church to be on the Feast of Trumpets.
I didn't come out of my mother's womb with the aforementioned Prophetic timeline in my mind. It didn't just "pop" in to my mind. I heard it over and over again at Church from the Pulpit. ANYONE who says this profitic timeline didn't happen, and that the Church and Herbert Armstrong didn't set dates is a flat out LIAR!
As a young teenager, I use to look out my Laurel, Maryland bedroom window at night during the wintery cold first week of January 1972 searching for the Germans landing in the attack in my neighborhood. I would hide under my covers in fear. Again, I was not born with these thoughts - I was taught this prophetic timeline in Church for years leading up to 1972. Anyone who says otherwise is a LIAR!
Richard
Probably the person whom GTA influenced the most during his lifetime was his eldest son, Mark. Redfox regularly publishes Mark’s weekly missives for us to discuss over at his Living Armstrongism Blog.
ReplyDeleteI can’t recall seeing anything Mark has written about the end times prophecies of his grandfather. One would get the impression that Mark anticipates Donald Trump making everything right in America, and putting the USA back on track. This, of course, as the so-called “alt.right” diminishes in its appeal and ability to draw sizable crowds, as evidenced by the non-event the rally in Washington became this past weekend.
BB
ReplyDelete"As a young teenager, I use to look out my Laurel, Maryland bedroom window at night during the wintery cold first week of January 1972 searching for the Germans landing in the attack in my neighborhood. I would hide under my covers in fear. Again, I was not born with these thoughts - I was taught this prophetic timeline in Church for years leading up to 1972. "
And to think that Church Documents undeniably support the evidence that this entire "campaign of Armageddon" was carefully designed to increase funding so that the Church could finance their master plan for the Campus of the Church and College.
Now, to see that Garner Ted Armstrong was mocking those who were genuinely frightened by the propaganda coming out in a ministerial bulletin is absolutely appalling. From insults, to name-calling, to mocking - GTA never spared any punches in those bulletins. But to openly mock the absolute fear that the brethren had, while they willingly continued such a program for the purpose of money-harvesting to finish a building project?
Repugnant. Immoral. And reprehensible by all accounts.
-SHT
So, how did that minister from Ohio die?
ReplyDeleteNck
Regarding the GTA joke.
ReplyDeleteIn about 1978 or 1979 our minister had a sermon in which he joked about "we do not know the time to flee until mr armstrong takes his blue book from his safe."
I wasn t paying complete attention and later asked "what was this business about a blue book in mr armstrongs safe?" It was explained to me that he was joking. Still I imagine, remarks like that may have caused quite a stir at certain households.
Interesting how no one ever talked about the pre 1972 predictions. It reminds me of 1970 Germany where no youngster ever really knew about their grandparents dealings, due to "the great silence." Of course these were the days of rampant leftist uprisings and rebellion in both germany and japan, all squelched for the greater cause of fighting communism.
I guess joe jr was part of the "angry young man" generation gone underground.
I mentally left the church in 1989, when I wanted to be part of history and chopped at the Berlin Wall while the taunted east german border guards looked on, only to hear the Tkachian press release next sabbath, that non of this had any prophetic significance.
For me personally, at the time, it felt like a ship that was drifting with the engine turned off. HWA always said that the prophecy part, provided for the "energetic sense of urgency", a bit like targets for a salesdriven company. Not many earn their bonus without a target in such organisations.
Nck
I attended cgi and it was common knowledge Garner Ted mocked the fleeing to petra belief. He still mocked it during the 90's.
ReplyDeleteWhether he was arrogantly mocking the dumb sheep its difficult to know. I hope not but the words of Ezekiel fit perfectly to the arrogance and behaviour thats gone on throughout time.
By 1969 or 1970 some ministers in Pasadena had started trying to dial back on the idea that the church would flee in January 1972. Even Rod Meredith was saying that it appeared that prophecy had "slowed down" and we may have more time. I remember about that time GTA giving a sermon in which he took off his wristwatch and held it up. He said something like, "This watch cost about $5,000. You will know that we are getting near the end time when you see me sell this watch and give the money to the Work. Until then you don't need to be packing your suitcase and getting ready to flee."
ReplyDeleteOf course, no one could get HWA to back off too much. When January 1972 came and went, he responded by writing an article exclaiming "I AM NOT A PROPHET!" That was his argument for defending himself against claims of being a false prophet. (I am not a prophet at all so I cannot be a false prophet."
I'm surprised that I am still shocked, but the arrogance of RCM flaunting a watch he claimed to cost around 5000.00 that way takes my breath.
DeleteIf you are a fairly intelligent person, completely immersed in the belief of "the world tomorrow" and the universe being the inheritance of man, building an immaculate landscape in the golden land, as a shining example of a lamp on the hill overlooking "the Valley" to symbolize all that and you receive 5000 letters per week and people coming after you at services asking "when will we flee to petra", I cannot imagine a person being able to withstand the trappings of mockery. I guess GTA could be an arrogant prick more than warranted. But hey, honestly, "fleeing to petra" was never the gospel, not even for "the voice of truckers." People acted like dumb sheep, even after the 1000 or so warnings to "not believe me but believe your bibles", where it said that "no one knew the time". But I do admit, personally I have waited a couple of years until HWA was decomposed before admitting that completely.
ReplyDeletenck
The biggest proof that not many fully acted on the believe we might have had to flee in 1972 is the 1984 "turning the hearts of the children" campaign. I mean, where did all these teenagers come from mid eighties if everyone had heeded the "fleeing to the hills, woe the pregnant ladies".............
ReplyDeleteThough I do admit remembering my mother counselling on the "pregnant ladies fleeing to the hills" scriptures with the minister. The one that left vaccination up to her personal consciousness after 30 kids contracted polio in my area of the bible belt. The answer to this riddle. I am not a single child.
nck
"But I do admit, personally I have waited a couple of years until HWA was decomposed before admitting that completely."
ReplyDeleteOh ye of little faith, know ye not that being all powerful means that decomposed or not HWA can be raised from the dead?
In fact he was on an episode of Walking Dead just last week.
Kevin
minister .. proceeded to map out in detail the timeline for the date for us to flee .. down to the month, the week, then day.. posted this inside the kitchen cupboard so that ..the police would not see it.
ReplyDeleteI heard stories of members liquidating homes/properties - and of course forwarding the funds to the former-aluminum-cooking-pot-salesman-turned-end-time-Elijah-prophet.
As I understand it, even as late as the early 1980s, HWA was trying to arrange a meeting with King Hussein of Jordan so as to arrange for the use of Petra for the place of safety. Apparently he spoke about this publicly at church services and spoke about this in coworker letters.
ReplyDeleteGlenn said, "Of course, no one could get HWA to back off too much. When January 1972 came and went, he responded by writing an article exclaiming "I AM NOT A PROPHET!" That was his argument for defending himself against claims of being a false prophet. (I am not a prophet at all so I cannot be a false prophet."
ReplyDeleteMY COMMENT - HWA also sent out a Co-Worker letter in February 1972 after the January 1972 Great Tribulation date came and went stating that the significance of the completion of the second 19-year time cycle was (drum roll) ..... Advertising in Readers Digest!
Instead of German bombs dropping on America after years of prophetic end-time speculation, the true significance of the second 19-year time cycle was advertising in Reader's Digest! How ridiculous! It exposed Herbert Armstrong for what he was, and this latest failed prophecy was the beginning of the turbulent 1970s in the WCG. Soon after 1972, GTA's immorality was exposed as well as his love for Gail Weber, the Church Jet stewardess; doctrines were brought into question such as the correct date of Pentecost; divorce & remarriage; and the first major splinter, Associated Churches of God, occurred during the rebellion of 1974 with 2,000 members and 34 ministers leaving WCG. GTA was later ousted, and the Receivership occurred later in the 1970s.
Richard
A 5000 dollar wristwatch back in 1969!! Someone could have possibly bought a good used car for that back then
ReplyDeleteWow. Denying the preaching of the 1972-75 end times, and the fleeing to Petra leaves thinking people to wonder about the horrible coincidences involved in hundreds or thousands of church people deciding for themselves to blow off college, delay their marriages, and ignore dental, medical, and financial issues during the time leading up towards those dates. And this, no less, in an authoritarian church which practiced thought control!
ReplyDeleteThe only way to honestly treat it or explain it is by acknowledging what actually happened. HWA and the church actually did set those dates, and building program as quasi evidence to the contrary or not, when the dates failed, they back-pedaled, and wrote a revisionist history to save face and the Armstrong movement. Everyone with "the right attitude" bought into the revisionism, reprogrammed themselves, and continued being good little zombies. The rest of us saw it for what it was, and left that FUBAR and very bogus church.
BB
I'll never forget GTA on the radio telling the listeners how foolish people are growing grass around their house, when they should be growing corn to get ready for the coming famine. Also GTA constantly warned of the hazard of mono-culture farming.
ReplyDeleteFear religion has no place in God's church and yet why do we have the apostles asking Christ about the "end of the Age" and other new testament scriptures commenting (plus Revelation) so it the subject has some importance. For me it's all about balance and not for speculation. Those tens of thousands that left must have joined to a degree "to save their butt"
Even if this kind of scheme only affected ONE life. It was ONE life too many.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is, no one in any level of authority attempted to squelch the concerns of the members at any time during the alleged "19 year time cycle" between 1956 and 1975. It was used, blatantly and willingly, as a method of manipulation to increase tithes, as a way to support the funding to complete the building fund of Ambassador College and the church headquarters.
Whatever happened in and to the lives of church members who fell for it was of no concern to Herbert and associates. Tithe first, everything else doesn't matter.
It was a cold, callous, very calculated move - fully endorsed by the Armstrongs. We KNOW GTA never bought into it. Yet he had no problem not dispelling the belief.
Herbert Armstrong was extremely cunning in his techniques of getting people to buy his product. So cunning, that despite all of the evidence of what really was happening was a well-produced scam of enormous proportions - some people still buy into it. Oh well. There are people who are obsessed about Star Trek as well. They're both fictional ideas that built a massive enterprise and following. The only difference? We all know Star Trek for what it is. Some still think Armstrong's version of reality is the truth - despite all the evidence to the contrary.
When will people ever wise up that they were genuinely, and under full documented proof - scammed?
-SHT
I know it must be difficult for many folks here to grasp the whole tribulation thing, how so many were brainwashed into believing we were actually going to be somehow supernaturally whisked away to Petra. Logical, sane thinking people of today probably marvel at how so many bought that farm! I was a little kid in the 50's when my mother started on the litany, then when I started going to church with her in the 60's, all I can remember was the ministry screaming and pounding the podium about the Nazis, and how the took babies and dashed them against walls, and how we would be diseased and starved and how animals would come from the wild and attack us. The list goes on and on! You hear this every single week, twice a day at the Feast, for years. Our parents were children of the Depression, veterans of WW2, the Cold War. They feared for us, the kids, wanting to save us from the horror they grew up under. These tactics would not work today, thankfully. My own kids wondered how I, a strong willed, informed person could have possibly actually believed this shit! I HATE myself for believing it for as long as I did. I married for the wrong reason, to get it all in before the end. I took my kids to this church to prevent them from what my mother wanted to save me from. And it was all a joke, a way to keep the sheep compliant and meek and scared. They took our college educations, our 401K's, our golden years. Yeah, let it go, they say. I say you can't understand the insanity unless you lived it. Makes me pissed off. Makes me bitter. Makes me mad. It's how I feel. The Armstrongs, I hate them, glad they're dead.
ReplyDeleteOh, what madness we were all a part of! I remember the detailed chart I drew up on ledger paper trying to lay out Daniel's prophecies on a timeline. It all converged on 1975, using the day for a year in prophecy nonsense. The JWs did the same thing. We all forgot to consider all the past failures of such interpretations of fanciful prophecies that had no connection to a real Daniel or anything else. Daniel was a fictional concoction written, like Revelation, to inspire people during the Maccabeean struggles, only Revelation was inspired by the struggle against Rome. Daniel seemed real because some of it was remembered and documented history by the time it was written. It goes haywire when it gets applied to the future. We were just dumb Bible readers who, like millions before us, assumed we were reading the absolutely certain future an all knowing and controlling god had mapped out. We never stopped to consider what a malevolent monster such a god had to be to fore ordain what we so confidently believed was sure to happen. Think about it! That god has to be an absolute sadist! Why did that thought never occur to me way back then?
ReplyDeleteGlen is right – by around 1970 the 1972 date was being ‘soft-pedalled’, and by 1971 I really don’t think anyone in the church I attended seriously thought we would be fleeing in 1972. And this was in the UK, a long way from Pasadena!
ReplyDeleteSo I don’t consider the GTA remark, written in December 1971, was ‘making fun’ of the members, but rather reflecting the view that at least the majority of the membership shared at that point in time.
Certainly all us ‘ordinary members’ in our area at least, come 1971 expected the time to be going on for at least a few more years.
I would take the GTA remark not to be mocking the members, but as being what the average member also thought at that time – that it was unlikely to happen in the next few months, but if it did, we would be informed, so no need to worry about it. Meanwhile, just carry on.
Maybe this wasn’t reflected in every area of the world – it seems that Richard, in Laurel, Maryland, wasn’t up to speed on it in the first week of January 1972. Maybe his family didn’t update him, or maybe the minister in the area didn’t bother to update his people.
All I can say is that certainly in our area in the UK, as 1970 and 1971 progressed, no one was expecting to flee in January 1972.
The watch's value GTA was talking about in 1972?
ReplyDelete"$5,000 in 1972 equals $29,990.75 in 2018." (saving.org)
A $30,000 dollar watch.
IN 1972 a new house was $27,600 on average (census.gov)
Average Income per year $11,800.00
How much was an expensive house?
"Split Level Home on Hill Top living room , dining room , 3 bedrooms , cathedral ceilings , 3 baths central air and double garage Iowa City
$32,400 " (http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/1972.html)
That'll tell you something, won't it?
-SHT
There were many victims outside the church as well. Many Plain Truth readers were taken in by 1975, acted on that belief, and suffered accordingly.
ReplyDeleteQuesteruk wrote, "Glen is right – by around 1970 the 1972 date was being ‘soft-pedalled’, and by 1971 I really don’t think anyone in the church I attended seriously thought we would be fleeing in 1972."
ReplyDeleteMY COMMENT - The last recorded utterance of the January 1972 Tribulation date was recorded in my Sabbath Services notebooks which I still have to this very day. It was made by Herbert W. Armstrong himself at the 1970 Feast of Tabernacles in Mt. Pocono, Pa. I quote Mr. Armstrong as saying from the Pulpit, "Our Work could be finished in the first week of January 1972".
Perhaps Mr. Armstrong himself was "soft-peddling" by using the word "could". However, we regularly point out here on Banned by HWA about the choice of words Dr. Bitter Bob Thiel uses to provide himself with prophetic wiggle room. Besides, Herbert Armstrong was allegedly God's End Time Apostle and head of God's only true Church; and if Mr. Armstrong says to the Church "Our Work could be finished in the first week of January 1972" along with all the events that were preached for years which came along with it, then it behooved us to pay attention when January 1972 came to pass.
Questeruk said, "So I don’t consider the GTA remark, written in December 1971, was ‘making fun’ of the members, but rather reflecting the view that at least the majority of the membership shared at that point in time".
MY COMMENT - Given what we now know about the deteriorating relationship between father Herbert and son Garner Ted throughout the 1970s, it could also have been a remark made in ridicule of his own father as by December 1971 it was clear to some that the Great Tribulation was not likely to happen a month later. The whole 19 year time cycles all revolved around Herbert Armstrong's radio ministry commencing in January 1934 and perhaps Garner Ted was ridiculing the entire prophetic timeline revolving around his father's radio ministry.
Questeruk said, "it seems that Richard, in Laurel, Maryland, wasn’t up to speed on it in the first week of January 1972".
MY COMMENT - I guess my family and I didn't get the memo. We definitely didn't get the December 1971 GTA letter scanned by SHT. Apparently, enough other people didn't get the memo either because the silence from Pasadena was deafening when January 1972 came and went. Then the backpedaling began. A month later, Herbert Armstrong announced the prophetic significance of the second 19-year time cycle was advertising in Readers Digest. That God opened the door of Readers Digest to the Work.
Richard
The biggest lie is in the closing: "With love in Christ's name." Taking the name of God in vain is understood by some Jews as using God's name to do evil. Saying, "God told me such and such" to justify your sin is taking His name in vain and making God a partner in sin.
ReplyDeleteThere are (expensive) computer programs like Wavetrader for playing the stock market, currencies and similar. These programs are based on repetitive waves in the market, but state that they are still in the realm of probability. This is because price movements do conform to geometric patterns, but there are a multitude of patterns possible.
ReplyDeleteWhich means that all these end of world predictions should be taken with a grain of salt. Especially considering that these people weren't intimately familiar with the wave principle or the maths required. And not forgetting the calendar complexity issues. So I yawn when Malm or similar gives dates.
" People acted like dumb sheep, even after the 1000 or so warnings to "not believe me but believe your bibles","
ReplyDeleteThis is a very common misunderstanding. Truth is, this was not for those in the church, this was for those who were listening to the radio. HWA did NOT want those in the church "proving" anything at all that went against the official doctrine of the Church. If any "proof" went against HWA's doctrine, it was never proof. Even if "you" have "proved" it. This duality of belief, which HWA was very, very good at, was a common tactic of his when confronted with anything, really. It was never HIS fault. It was the members' fault, for not understanding what the intent of what he said was.
Read this:
http://www.herbert-armstrong.org/Good%20News%201960s/Good%20News%201960%20(Vol%20IX%20No%2005)%20May.pdf
Page: 4.
I will quote HWA:
Page 4 The GOOD NEWS May, 1960
"...to be seen, r caught by one of the ministers . It is your duty to report such an
activity to a minister or deacon IMMEDIATELY!
“Didn’t I Say, LISTEN”? But some will say, “But didn’t you say, over the air,
for us to LISTEN to YOU, and also to LISTEN to all others, bur not to believe you,
and not to believe the others, but believe what we see in the Bible?”
BRETHREN!
When I speak on the air, I am speaking to the outside WORLD -to the unconverted.
I am not speaking just to those who should already KNOW the truth. These people all around the world, who listen to me on the radio,do not know whether I am a false prophet,a minister of God,or WHAT. To them, YES, I say,DO NOT BELIEVE MEN- BELIEVE YOUR BIBLE!
That is what you should have done- before you knew the TRUTH. Probably it was because you did do that, that you saw the TRUTH with your own eyes in your Bible.
Perhaps THAT is what brought you into the truth, and led you to God’s one and only
true Church!
To people who do not KNOW that this is the ONLY true Church of God, I do say those very things. But to you who have PROVED this is GOD’S CHURCH, it is different.
BUT, you say, are you no longer supposed to PROVE ALL THINGS, by your own BIBLE?
Yes, of course you are! Then is it wrong for you to PROVE THESE THINGS FOR YOURSELF,
in your own Bible? Not at all! What we say is, do not listen any longer to those who bring a DIFFERENT doctrine! If you have already seen these truths for your-
self-already PROVED them in your own Bible-already proved this is the true Church
of God, then GOD’S TEACHING, :IS I have shown you in this article from the BIBLE, is, DO NOT LISTEN to those who bring a different doctrine. "
-SHT
All of the people buying into the 1972 german attack must have been severely stupid.
ReplyDeleteOnly last week for the first time in history germany has been openly contemplating limited nuclear capability in light of the trump betrayal of nato.
In 1972 natos european forces would have been able to sent one rubber dingy to the usa as 4000 land tanks were aimed at the soviet union.
What inmense stupidity beyond words
Nck
I'll modify/edit my last post to read, "The last recorded utterance of the January 1972 Tribulation date THAT I HAVE RECORDED IN MY NOTEBOOKS (Others may have something different) was made by Herbert W. Armstrong himself at the 1970 Feast of Tabernacles in Mt. Pocono, Pa. I quote Mr. Armstrong as saying from the Pulpit, "Our Work could be finished in the first week of January 1972".
ReplyDeleteRichard
@7:42am Dumbhead,
ReplyDeleteForget about a good used car in 1969 for $5000 you could buy a brand new Dodge Charger with a 426 cubic inch HEMI for that back then, or two brand new base Chevy Malibu.
I think GTA was mocking and laughing at the church members by showing off his expensive watch he had while they suffered financially by giving 30 percent of their income to that vile church. I bet many in the church couldn't even afford a Timex while he showed off his Rolex or whatever type of watch that was.
Most in that cult could barely afford food clothing and the basic necessities of life while GTA and his lowlife father lived in the lap of luxury.
Craig
You grumpy liars never could take a joke.
ReplyDelete"A 5000 dollar wristwatch back in 1969!! Someone could have possibly bought a good used car for that back then"
ReplyDeleteFord introduced the Pinto in 1971 with a base price of $1,999. I think for two and a half times that, you could have gotten a decent new family car.
I remember Dr. Kuhn saying in 1976 that in December 1970 a leading minister (whom Kuhn did not name) laid out for him a timeline under which the Germans could still attack America in January 1971. Kuhn was shocked.
ReplyDeleteNck
ReplyDeleteHere you go again with your whitewashing of Herb with your 4.16 PM 'blame the victim' comment. It's you who are "extremely stupid" for defending the man.
I can only conclude that you defend Herb because you are morally challenged yourself, and regard him your moral sole mate.
"All of the people buying into the 1972 german attack must have been severely stupid."
ReplyDeleteIt's not "stupidity", NCK. It's called "Brainwashing".
They were looking for absolutely anything to verify their beliefs. That's called "confirmation bias". I'm quite certain you know this as fact.
They believed that the German thing was the event that confirmed their belief of the end of the world. Of course, it was not. But "confirmation bias" is responsible for many people being sucked into Armstrongism due to world events that seemed prophetic, but were actually just the course of world events.
Herbert Armstrong was said by GTA that he literally had briefcases stuffed with articles he had begun to write on things happened in the world - four or five of them - of things he had begun but the event either collapsed or moved on before he could complete it. I would likely think, in MY opinion, that he was looking for anything and everything to "spin" in a way to help his program. And when it didn't work, or go the way he wanted it, he just stuffed it away. Gene Hogberg did a lot of the same things when he was analyzing news - but I've never looked into how much of his writings were or were not accurate.
To call Armstrong believers stupid is a very blanket judgement that isn't true. They were pulled in by Armstrong's techniques which were brainwashing. Many COG members were very smart, and if they had the amount of resources we have now with the global information we have - I am sure they would have wised up.
Pompous Nck said 45 years later, "All of the people buying into the 1972 german attack must have been severely stupid."
ReplyDeleteMY COMMENT - Perhaps young and dumb I would agree. However, it's really easy for you to say that 45 years later after the fact. I don't remember YOU standing up and declaring the stupidity of what the Armstrongs and Church were teaching. Were YOU disfellowshipped for warning the Church of the stupidity?
Great Monday morning quarterbacking.
Giving credit where credit is deserved, the ONLY WCG evangelist I ever heard to suggest that life could go on for 40 years in this present age was C. Wayne Cole.
Richard
SHT 408 I am speaking to the outside WORLD
ReplyDeleteA similar article appeared in the Worldwide News in the late 1970s. I remember reading it to a member who insisted we still had to keep "proving" what HWA taught...
Now it seems like it said, You're in the [Mythical True] Church now, just accept what you're told...
In my experience the WCG did not set dates. I always heard the various end time chronologies couched in language that was carefully qualified to avoid a statement of certainty. No doubt the intent was to induce the audience to believe in certain dates, like William Miller, but to avoid the mistake of William Miller who preached a hard and fast date. If the news media showed up and asked the WCG leadership about dates, WCG leadership had a good defense. They never certified a date at all. There was always the artful "maybe" or "perhaps" or "we might expect" slipped into the sermon.
ReplyDeleteSo today, I don't believe that anyone can produce a documented statement from the WCG ministry that sets a date for end time events. All there is, is hearsay.
Craig and 5:49,
ReplyDeleteYeah I remember my mother bought my stepfather a 1969 Pontiac Bonneville and it was maybe only 5000.00!
Blogger nck said...
ReplyDeleteThe biggest proof that not many fully acted on the believe we might have had to flee in 1972 is the 1984 "turning the hearts of the children" campaign. I mean, where did all these teenagers come from mid eighties if everyone had heeded the "fleeing to the hills, woe the pregnant ladies".............
When I entered the Restored Church of god, Dave Pack was preaching a fleeing in 2017-2018 based upon counting the years from the building of Solomon's temple computed within the 6,000 year belief. He warned the ladies numerous times about being careful as we approach those years lest you would fulfill Matt. 24:19. Numerous childless couples at their headquarters was an indication the ladies were obeying the warning.
I believed this teaching for far too many years until I decided to sit down at the Feast and read what it says in the bible - something COG members don't do. The whole teaching about this subject is a mess. First the church teaches that a "taken" member is blessed at the 1335 days before Christ's return (Dan.12) and miraculously reaches Jerusalem which is surrounded by armies. Then at the 1290 days (Dan. 12) which you know is coming because you are counting down the days, you are to wait and see the abomination of desolation (Matt. 24:15). Somehow during this 45 day period (1335-1290) you have been taken from your home in Iowa and acquired a house (Matt 24:17) or a field (Matt 24:18) or you were just wandering around in Judea (Matt 24:16). By the way, how would any of these three Iowans see the abomination of desolation if where they were at in Judea was far from the temple? Now the fleeing church members get chased by an army unleashed by Satan on their 30 day journey to Petra arriving on the 1260 days before Christ returns. Questions to ask oneself: How did a church member go from being called blessed at the 1335 days and then 45 days later having to pray about a non winter/Sabbath flight and be told woe and then having to flee while being chased by an army? Why would Jesus Christ call his fellow brethren, his flock, his friends, his true church, them - him - him - them - them in Matt. 24:16-20? Why would the church teach all these years that we knew exactly when Christ would return once you reached the 1335 just by counting down the days when they also taught no man knows the day or hour (Matt. 24:36)?
This whole scenario is taught and believed by how many COG members today? It is a testament to men who willy-nilly peace together prophetic timelines to make themselves look like a person who knows........... and to people like myself who for a lot of years just flat out believed it all because it all sounds so good.
Most comments here are quite fair and honest.
ReplyDeleteI do side with NEO on this topic.
8:42
I hope you saw the "funny" in my remark. I had siblings produced in that time period. Still a great answer that might be helpful to trapped persons.
-SHT 4:08.
I did just that and accept the wcg teachings on doctrine and finding things in the bible. But I never found a date in the bible, never did. But I see your point.
-Richard 6:13 re: monday morning quarterbacking'
My entire existence, social context and life at the time circled around withstanding a Soviet attack. I did hear about the "rod of mine anger" although not the meathooks. My position had always been that to build a European army independent from Nato would at least take 10 years. During the split friends contemplated joining pcg. I answered in 1991 that although every scenario could work out, the pcg scenario of European Unification and "german attack" would at least take 20 years based on my knowledge at the time. And here we are 30 years later. I believe my friend joined Weinland later on.
I am a fervent speculator that the CIA opened many doors for HWA. (especially international radio broadcasting). The entire scaremongering about the germans and fear about nuclear attack supported the American empire in keeping a 3 million (occupation) force on german soil (the occupation ended legally in 1992 by the signing of treaties and complete restoration of german sovereignty)
Of course ALL effort was directed in containing the Soviet Empire. But this does not negate the fact that until 1992 germany was legally occupied territory under the direction of the allied powers.
The swift reaction of the British government against the "Pirate Stations" broadcasting american (immoral) music and "the world tomorrow" signalled the cia special opp in influencing and swaying the hearts and minds of the undecided europeans favorably toward american culture.
The real "monday morning quarterbacking" was the INSISTENT MESSAGE that Britain and Northern European nations were AMERICA's BROTHERS. While in reality the American Empire had crushed the British and other European Empires by siding with the decolonizers causing a massive rift between the elites of Britain and Europe after WWII.
In reality the British Empire was left bereft and impoverished after WWII. With the American empire filling in the void through commerce and trade. (the unseen hand)
The CIA needed someone to scaremonger 180 heads of state on "unless we change" the US will drop another bomb.
nck
“Stupid”, in an Armstrongite context, is kind like an ethnic slur, in that it’s OK for us to use the word on ourselves, but we become angry when it is used on us by outsiders (like current HWA sympathizers)
ReplyDeleteI freely admit, in retrospect, to having been stupid for believing in British Israelism, German Assyrianism, prophecies based on them, one man’s math, and supporting it all in my mind with bias confirmation every day when reading the newspaper. I thought the whole thing sucked, and was a blight or taint on my life, but I believed it and didn’t turn loose of it until the end of 1975. At least I had the intelligence to impose a limit, and to administer a simple true and false test upon Armstrongism. They did not, and could not deliver. It’s as simple as that. System failure.
Unfortunately, as a young vulnerable and impressionable boy, it had all been handed to me by a couple of HWA’s diligent disciples (my parental units), and by the time I entered the early days of adulthood, what passed for family and friends, my lifestyle and my employment were all deeply invested in it.
Do I consider myself stupid today? No. Years of education and experience have provided philosophical grounding which would prevent my becoming involved in cults or scams. The pathologically stupid go from cult to cult, almost addictively, defying the concept of bottoming out, never really learning. Sadly, we’ve had fellowship on these sites, blogs, and forums with people whose pathologies include the need for a cult, or “special” group. You can tell who they are because they haven’t shaken the linguistic approach, using the same ensnaring time-honored phrases about open mindedness, and truths only known to a select few. It’s sad to watch, but perhaps they have been reduced to needing this, and the forceful removal of their Linus blanket would do more harm than good. They want us involved, because if others share their logic, it provides validation. Reject them, and, well, we’ve seen them become angry and destructive. But, that’s their problem.
BB
You see Richard,
ReplyDeleteI am not negating the "brain washing". I'm just illuminating how it worked.
I mean phrases like "oh yeah britain will lose the gates to the seas, or germany is bad boy", might to a 1950 american just seem obvious. However to see the United States side with Nasser on the Suez channel, favoring Egypt and have Britain and France loose all illusions that they might have of influence in the Middle East has been a traumatic experience for others.
Armstrong's was a "soothing" message that the American empire was to be benign, the mental set up for "a new order" and the sharing of power "between brothers".
A world order that is currently challenged by the Chinese, the Arabs and the Russians and the other "gentile" nations.
nck
11:02
ReplyDeleteI agree more than a 100 percent with BB posting. It is all the more painful when blunt examples are given without the shrouding of pc or diplomatic structuring.
Stupid is exactly what it is. "Showing a lack of common sense." I gave examples of "common sense." (like military capabilities for invasion of the USA)
"Brainwashing" to me is a rather simple term alluding to ones personal biases. I like how BB points to his greater social context, the handing of "knowledge", lifestyle and employment.
I have always pointed out how "members" would recieve HWA's preaching AND how the elites of Greece, Bhutan and Nepal (between the Indian subcontinent, Communist China), decolonized East Africa, (israeli nuclear bomb powered) anc figthing white South Africa, etc etc etc would have understood HWA as an emissary of "the new (UN) world order" as led by the "Israelite" security council. (US-UN anti communist order)".
By all accounts "World Tomorrow" listeners at the Pentagon or UN diplomats never found much to fault hwa with. Except that he seemed to be ahead of American Foreign Policy.
nck
Blogger Near_Earth_Object said..."In my experience the WCG did not set dates. I always heard the various end-time chronologies couched in language that was carefully qualified to avoid a statement of certainty".
ReplyDeleteMY COMMENT - Perhaps you missed the booklet "1975 in Prophecy" written by Mr. Armstrong. Surely, you heard of the 19-year time cycles stated by Mr. Armstrong many times, but perhaps you missed that too. But in case you did hear of it, in the years leading up to the end of the second 19-year time cycle (January 1972), what dd you think the significance of the second time cycle to mean?
Perhaps you missed both the "1975 in Prophecy" booklet and "19 year time cycles" while you were busy dwelling on the hearsay fabrication that the WCG preached Native American extermination out of one side of its Church mouth, and also preached "Thou shalt not kill" out of the other side of its Church mouth.
Richard
Dear Richard,
ReplyDeleteI second NEO and I second you (although you probably mean the THIRD 19 year time cycle).
For the final and defenite answer. You are both right.
https://www.hwalibrary.com/cgi-bin/get/hwa.cgi?action=getmagazine&InfoID=1319287605
nck
Lake of Fire:
ReplyDeleteThe 19 year time cycles and the booklet 1975 in prophecy may have been definitive to some of the HWA fans. But anybody who was anybody did not regard it so. A pastor in Kansas gave a sermon in about 1970 that pieced everything together so that the flight to the place of safety would happen in January of 1972 and carefully stated that it only "might" be that way.
The last eschatology I heard Hoeh present was disconnected from the 19 year time cycles and had the tribulation beginning in 1982.
But I will not gainsay what you heard and experienced. You may have been around some of the less discriminating people who were in every congregation. What you heard was what you heard. Just like I, and other people who blog here, heard about the genocide of Native Americans. And I am certainly not embarrassed about dwelling on this. Were you a humanitarian you might have reacted in the same way.
It is unfortunate that this period in the USA is marked by many people who make the same simplistic but irrational error that you do. If they have no direct experience, it must be "hearsay fabrication." Or as it is customarily stated by some of the greatest liars to ever appear in American politics: "fake news."
Dear NCK,
ReplyDeleteI read your link to Mr. Armststrong's article printed in the TW magazine. I also read it 46 years ago. It is most likely the article Glenn referred to earlier. This February 1972 article is merely Herbert Armstong back peddling and doing damage control in the Church. As I stated, the silence was deafening.
It doesn't negate what was preached in the 1950s and 1960s pointing to January 1972 Great Tribulation and 1975 Return of Christ. It doesn't negate the booklet, "1975 in Prophecy". It doesn't negate the words out of the mouth of Herbert Armstrong at the 1970s Mt. Pocono Feast of Tabernacles which I diligently wrote word for word down in my Sabbath Services notebook which Armstrong said, "Our Work could be finished in the first week of January 1972". His statement made then was soft-peddling the prophetic timeline that was preached and believed widely in the WCG. Sorry, your link proves nothing.
As far as counting 19-year time cycles, I have it right:
First 19 year time cycle: January 1934 - January 7, 1953 (Work went to Europe in 1953)
Second 19-year time cycle: January 8,1953 - January 7, 1972 (Great Tribulation German attack on America).
In previous posts, I referred to the second 19-year time cycle as "the completion of the second 19-year time cycle".
I'll finish by stating what I stated at the start of this blog topic. ANYONE who says this prophetic timeline didn't happen, and that the Church and Herbert Armstrong didn't set dates is a flat out LIAR!
Richard
Having been born post-1972, I can't really comment in great depth in this area. I do find it funny that HWA and his underlings used to skewer "scientists" for using words like "apparently", "estimated", "observed", "likely", "suggests"... and then employing those same words in these situations.
ReplyDeleteNEO
ReplyDeleteThe "might" and similar loophole qualifiers in the 1975 prediction were given to escape legal liability. HWA was a master of guile, and knew full well that the repetition of the 1975 date, and the tones used in mentioning of the "mights" and "maybes" determined what the members believed.
In those days, most members trusted the ministers the same way that they learnt to trust their high school teachers. After all, high school teachers don't lie about their subject content. Herb and his ministers ruthlessly exploited this habit for their power lust. Lawyer Nck, the defender of Herb, conveniently ignores this with all his city slicker lawyer talk.
NEO, perhaps your irrational belief that the white man wants to exterminate the native Americans is projection on your part. You want the whites all gone, with America populated exclusively by native Americans. Like in the good old days.
Astute observations of what has pervaded WCG and splinters always. Having grown up in that quagmire of deceptions and mistruths, I witnessed that often as a child and thru my AC and Pasadena years, continuing uneasily into this decade until I'd had enough of the arrogance, hypocrisy, lies and deceit and finally, belatedly, walked away after over 50 years of believing the "one true church."
ReplyDeleteIn sermon #972 recorded Jan 14, 2017 and posted on the LCG sermon's site, LCG's pompous and never-wrong Richard F. Ames proclaims that HWA's "1975 in Prophecy" was not meant to be taken literally as predicting anything, as setting any dates, but merely as an answer to those smug futurists who predicted a "helicopter on every lawn by 1975." He indicated that many members took it wrong and set dates, but no, not HWA and HQ. HWA and his minions weren't wrong, but the members were the ones who set dates. His lame lies and deceptive spin were so blatantly false and unbelievable I had to listen twice since upon first hearing I couldn't believe he'd actually had the arrogance to deny the facts of what many of us witnessed back then. I recall hearing Ames as a 9-11 year old in Akron, OH, and thought then that he was pompous, condescending and boring, as he still is. Some things in the COGs never change, they just get spun deceptively to where wrong becomes right.
Ames was a master at using the Big Frowny Face for effect when making a show of decrying this and that. Cant imagine hes given up that old trick.
DeletePerhaps 3:03 is right in calling my argumentation "slick". I mean, by no means and nowhere do my postings fit Richard's definition of a liar. Rather it is Richard doing the "coulds" and "woulds" from the quotes of his own notebook.
ReplyDeleteI think people can make up their own mind with the presented data from all perspectives. Especially those that were their. An "RSK" would get the gist. ;')
Nck
Anonymous 3:03 said, "NEO, perhaps your irrational belief that the white man wants to exterminate the native Americans is projection on your part. You want the whites all gone, with America populated exclusively by native Americans. Like in the good old days."
ReplyDeleteMY COMMENT - I find it funny that a low-level deacon makes an inappropriate and racist comment to NEO, and suddenly, in NEO's mind, it becomes Churchwide doctrine. Yet, NEO can't recall the Churchwide focus the anticipated 1972/1975 prophetic timeline had on the Church, nor recall the many statements made by the ministry in the years leading up to it. Oh yes, I remember that WCG booklet, "Just what do mean Native American Extermination?"
I have read many Byker Bob's comments referring to the 1972/1975 prophetic timeline and the subsequent great disappointment. He was in Pasadena and on the other side of the USA from me. HST must remember it ergo the title of this blog post. No2HWA has said on more than one occasion that the ministry in the Dayton, Ohio church revealed a timeline down to the month we would be fleeing (although he hasn't said if the date was January 1972). Recorded in my Sabbath Service notebook, besides the previously mention HWA 1970 FOT quote, is Rod Meredith's statement made at combined Washington, D.C./Baltimore, Md. Churches in 1969 which he said the Work had 3 - 5 years left (and then Meredith went on to repeat that statement for the next 50 years). I assume Meredith went to other Church areas and repeated the same thing in the late 1960s. So, it was not a localized thing as NEO portrays. It was the Churchwide focus in the years leading up the the end of the second 19-year time cycle.
Perhaps NEO was one of the people HWA was referring to when he use to say "Some of you just doesn't get it". Not necessarily a bad thing given what we know about Herbert Armstrong today.
Richard
In further response to HWA apologist NCK & doubting NEO, I found this PDF on the internet: http://www.british-israel.ca/19.pdf
ReplyDeleteThe heading of the article reads:
19 Year Times Cycles & the Church of God
In the day of Herbert W. Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God, He and Herman
Hoeh devised a 19-year time cycle scenario, resulting in the booklet “1975 in Prophecy”. They believed that they would go to Petra by 1972, and Jesus would return by 1975. Now today, many of the Armstrongites continue with this chronology. If people follow this again, will it cause the same fall out as it did in the 20th century?
END OF EXCERPT
The Worldwide Church of God and HWA did set dates and anyone who denies it is a liar (or was asleep).
Richard
4.40 PM
ReplyDeleteAccording to the Jehovah's Witnesses dissident sites, their leaders came out with the lies and excuses about 1975. The leaders played innocent, insisting that it's only the members who came up with the 1975 date. The body of evidence from their publications and sermons says otherwise. And they didn't return the life savings that members sent them.
There seems to be a under the table relationship between the JW and HWAs splinters. They steal each others lies and bag of tricks.
Lake O F Bob: Calling those who bought into HWA's crap stupid is really crass judgement. I bought into it because I didn't know any better at that time, NOT because I was STUPID. I was "scripturally ignorant and Unchurched". N0 background or religious teaching to refer to verify the accuracy of what HWA & GTA were preaching. Had NO clue as to text-proofing, out of context quotes etc. Not in those days. And they knew how to sound SO sincere& authoritative. And I wasn't the only one, either. 140K of us "sheeples" then. Add to that the Cold War, Cuban fiasco & BW's toons so it wasn't that hard after all to fool us, was it? (BTW: In 73 I paid $2610 for a brand new Chevy Nova with a 307 ci engine.) Also included among the 'sheeples" I knew were: a Univ Prof of Marketing, a Univ Prof of German, an Orthodontist, the head of an Insurance Agency, a Funeral Director, Sales Dept head of a Memorial Park". I was a licensed H&A agent myself. So...would you call all of us STUPID??? What about you???
ReplyDelete10:01
ReplyDeleteYou are absolutely right!
The word "stupid" was introduced on this thread not to describe "believers", but those that deemed a german military invasion on american soil feazible in 1970.
Germany posessing no ships, no nuclear capabilities, no transatlantic transport infrastructure. Still constitutionally UNDER political and military surveillance and control of a 3 million US occupation force not mentioning the allied forces on german territory. IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE at the time.
My thesis is that the CIA was well pleased with national and international scaremongering in order to maintain this situation for the real battle against the Soviets. I mean democracies are a tough cookie for policy makers. It helps when one can nudge the private sector in swaying public opinion. (charlie wilsons war)
Richard.
On a completely different note. Again we see masonic Hoeh introduce buddhist principles like "cycles" in a very early stage of the church.
Armstrong turned from straight 1928 protestant american fundamentalist to a budhist over the course of his lifetime.
Hoeh was a factor, but probably his many travels to japan, thailand, rest of asia made him more mellow.
Interesting to see the 1943 letter. It seems that people during the italian and new guinea invasions lost interest in religious radio. Times called for more upbeat programming with all the ladies making the bullits in the factories.
Pasadena schooled Patton had his first slapping the soldiers incident and macarthur had his first islands conquests through parachuting.
No wonder funds were low.
Nck
Nck said, "Armstrong turned from straight 1928 protestant american fundamentalist to a budhist over the course of his lifetime".
ReplyDeleteMY COMMENT - It is probably very true about Herman Hoeh and Buddhism, but I saw no evidence that Herbert Armstrong turned to Buddhism during his life.
Richard
Hi Richard,
ReplyDeleteIt's nice that you can agree somewhat on one of my wacky ideas.
"no evidence"
Just quick shooting from the hip here.
1) the elevated position of hoeh himself as doctrinal advisor is "proof" in itself
2) the many representatives from what thai at hwa's funeral "proof" more than "just" paying respect. It's not that they came for hoeh's sake at hwa's funeral
3) many of the anti hwa blogs have noted the "toned down" world peace through change of spirit, everyone will be saved, personal path to enlightenment THROUGH EDUCATION etc etc etc , strong hand from someplace, message in his latter years even calling it "budhist". While the "protestant" linear reasoning tranformed in circular. (cycles) Perhaps even the failed prophecies on a linear frame forced the church to go "cyclical" "Calling them resurections of the roman empire for instance.)
4) I will give Joe Tkach sr some slack that HWA might have mentioned in his "oral" will that the church and ministry should focus more on the "enlightenment" of the membership now that "his mission" had been completed. At least that was one of the reasons HWA cited for closing the Big Sandy campus just months before his passing. This shift toward the church having to grow as a spiritual organism is more of a budhist thought than the "missionary protestant preaching of the gospel."
5) Little AC's at Chiang Mai and Sri Lanka. Works of compassion for the hill tribes.
6) The emphasis of the "give way" , which detractors label extortion but on a personal level was extreme generosity of the wcg membership https://www.huffingtonpost.com/nicholas-liusuwan/generosity-in-buddhism_b_14487312.html?guccounter=1
6) HWA always smiled when attacked by detractors about his dealings with Geisha's. He claimed that the membership had no idea what the services of a Geisha entailed. (I agree.)
Oh wait number five is not really a sign of budhism, more of an apreciation of the oriental lifestyle.
Richard
In reality, books have been written that Jesus himself was heavily influenced by the oriental philosophies. (Peace, love, patience, longsuffering, suffering) Why not, as he spent his formative years at one of the most important trading hubs of the empire. (Sepphoris)while HWA spent 160 days per year in Asia in his prime, mid 1970's.
nck
BTW
ReplyDeleteI have to correct the 3 million american service men on the ground in germany in 1970.
The number would have been 300.000 active servicemen whose mission was "to hold the Fulda gap" for about 80 hours in order to have "the cavalry, the heavy boys" flown in from the USA within that period. Of course this "slowing down" of the Soviets would have meant the total annihilation of the 300.000 but would at least have provided for reinforcements for the stalemate during the "cold winter."
In case of a tank attack over the Northern Plains of Europe, the Americans - French Belgian army corps would live and the combined British - Dutch forces (400.000 conscripts) would have been annihilated at Hannover.
All this after Casey Casem then flipping channels to the World Tomorrow.
Just to give an idea, why a german attack on America was not imminent in my mind although of course a distant possibility. I mean HWA was bringing an important message of peace in my mind.
nck
I am writing a novel that starts with the church heading for Petra - would love to know more about this exact date and time to help set my calendar dates for authenticity. Please contact me at markpsadler@gmail.com. My dad was a local elder in Birmingham England, I gre up in the church from 1960 until I quit about '77; even attended one year in Big Sandy
ReplyDelete