A reader sent in the following comment on a long past blog entry (2011) concerning Jim Frank's. You all remember Jim Franks. He worked his devious ways, behind the scenes, to form two separate splinter groups. Franks worked in conjunction with Kubik and others, while still employed by the Worldwide Church of God, to form a tithe paying group of disgruntled WCG members to ensure they had enough money in place to pay their salaries when they started United Church of God. God forbid if any of these men had to get off their privileged butts and work a real job while running their new church!
After ensuring he and others could continue their lifestyles as paid, callous-free ministers, he rose in prominence in the United Church of God. Until he pitched another hissy-fit and led the mass apostasy from United Church of God, taking scores of ministers and members, along with their money, over to COGWA. They never-ending ministerial paychecks continued right over from UCG into COGWA as once again they had all the plans in place to ensure their hands never had to do any menial work while pretending to be ministers who were SERVING the members. It has always been about THEM first and not the members.
So yr saying that Cogwa is not of the truth of Jesus Christ and Almighty God ?? And what is the problem with Herbert Armstrong ? He is why I came into Worldwide in 1972. Are all the things I have learned all wrong or is unsavory rumors the best way to teach the word of God ?! Who’s in charge of all this here say and what do all of u have to gain from trying turn brethren against the Church of God ! Jesus said their will be false preachers at the end time ! Maybe when Christ in Matt 24 said we would hear of wars and rumors of wars , He meant not wars of the world but of the people’s in Gods churches ! Which church do any of u suggest is the right church of God !?? Maybe when Christ said evil will abound , maybe He meant not only of the world but of the people’s of the churches ! There came a time when we were by Jesus Christ to come out of her , I guess He means the world or does He not ? We all will stand before Almighty God and confess our sins , which side are or will u be on, the doersofgood or the evil doers of unrighteousness !Yr choice !
Seriously? How many more decades need to pass with one failed prophecy after another, watching as church leaders destroy lives, marriages and rip apart families? Every single prophecy uttered by HWA and other false teachers has failed. The only thing we have witnessed these men do is line their pockets with ill gotten money.
ReplyDeleteEvery single prophecy uttered by HWA and other false teachers has failed.
ReplyDeleteNot quite. HWA did get a couple of things right, but his prophetic batting average is still a lot lower than that of Punxsutawney Phil (and by meteorological standards, Phil isn't very good).
Non of these splinters want you in their churches unless they can exploit you. And that's not just the tithing thingy. They also insist on ego tripping by lording it over you, and insisting that you treat their bootlickers and minions with kid-gloves.
ReplyDeleteWave bye bye to being treated justly in any of these groups.
The 7th day Churches of God have had several splits. The SDAs split from them (or vice versa). They split into 2 in HWAs early days. Then WCG split from them.
ReplyDeleteHWA identified them as Sardis - dead - maybe WCG and its splits are part of the dead church with few works.
The modern Jewish Messianic movement was getting started too - their works are to make disciples of all nations, do good works - orphanages, helping people in trouble, etc. Plus they work cooperatively without a single rigid corporate structure - maybe they are the true Philadelphians?
The other possibility for WCG and the splinters, is they are the Laodiceans - think they are spiritually rich, but really spiritually naked.
Now this is just uninspired speculation on my part - I lack the "credentials" of our "official" prophets.
What does everyone else think WCG and splinters are?
Sardis, Philadelphian, Laodicean, or none of the above?
None of the above.
ReplyDeleteThe WCG and it's splinters were the product of an advertising salesman who, because of the depression, found himself up a creek without a paddle. Until he discovered religion. In relation to what they are in regards to the "type" of church as outlined in Revelation?
There were only seven churches referenced in the book of Revelation. Each of these seven churches had different issues in their "local congregations". Worldwide had hundreds of congregations at its peak - and no different in their differences from congregation to congregation, and from pastor to pastor. Some congregations were more liberal. Others were strongly conservative. (Think of the difference of range between Dennis Diehl in Findlay, OH and David Pack down the freeway in Akron, OH.
Now you might be judging the entire church as an organization - headquartered in Pasadena. What would that be? Well, that depends on what you are judging it by. Are you judging the church by the physical, or the spiritual? By the fruits of a business, or by the fruits of the Spirit? By the keeping of the law, or by love, mercy, and forgiveness? By the enforcement of tithe and income, or by taking care of the sheep and the widows and orphans as needed?
Instead of looking at it as a corporation - maybe we should step outside of the box and look at it for what it really was. Can you even truly call it something to even qualify as something to be judged by the spiritual conditions of the churches of Revelation? Would it fit another category altogether? Is every church confined to be just like the seven churches, or can there be altogether different categories? Who said that all churches are confined to be like the ones mentioned?
How then would one writeup the Worldwide Church of God without comparing it to Sardis or Philadelphia or any of the other ancient churches?
How do YOU define the Church at Pasadena? or Tulsa? or Portland or Miami? Or Cincinnati, or Akron?
Hoss said: “HWA did get a couple of things right . . .”
ReplyDeleteCan you please specify, according to you, what predictions he did get right?��
"And what is the problem with Herbert Armstrong ? He is why I came into Worldwide in 1972. "
ReplyDeletethat line of thought is a big problem in the Church...HWA is held up as something much more than he should be.
God is the One that brings us into the Church, and He can use anyone He wants...
a lot of the problems in the Church are a result of errors made by HWA....maybe had he lived longer he would have corrected them, who knows....
people should let him rest in peace and look forward, not back.
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ReplyDeleteCan you please specify, according to you, what predictions he did get right?
ReplyDeleteA few years ago I wrote a short piece on this at Painful Truth, based on Mark Armstrong's 50 years of prophetic accuracy or whatever it was called. And things he "got right" were actually revealing of things he "got wrong".
For example, the USA was never directly "at war" with the USSR, but the USSR doesn't exist any more. Yes, East and West Germany were reunited, but that was a circumstance of Germany losing WW II. The Six Day War in 1967 did "fulfill" his "Bricket Wood Prophecy" but the timing was wrong, and it scuttled his plans to broadcast from Radio Jerusalem...
11,07 PM
ReplyDeleteYou jest. HWA didn't make 'errors.' Rather he deliberately taught lies. He knew from his long life that tyranny world wide always fails, yet he kept teaching that 'government is everything.' The church culture under HWA was and is one of feeding members diluted spiritual milk. Spiritual meat is taboo. I know, since all ministers treated me as a criminal, when I gave speeches in spokesman's club based on self help books. This church policy was not a 'error.'
'Maybe he (Herb) would have corrected (his errors).' I've heard that one before. The answer is no, since a persons historic behavior (ie their character) determines their future behavior.
'People should look forward rather than back.' Wrong again. In terms of general personal growth, yes, but not when dealing with injustice. Any victim of a serious crime will tell you that they have been given a life sentence. The effects never go away. This 'look forward rather than back' is a attempt to suppress the natural negative consequences of sin. It's a war that abusive ministers wage against their victims.
My understanding is that the churches in the NT were led by a plurality of elders, not just one person. I think this protected the congregation from any extremes in decisions, etc. the WCG had only one man at the top who controlled, or tried to control most everything. His board of trustees were little more than well cared for yes men. Imagine what the WCG would could have been if before any major decisions were made or any publications were sent out, a group of people had to review them all. Imagine is real scholars could have input and veto power over what was being taught. Perhaps fewer people would have been disfellowshipped, marked, fired from their positions. Perhaps the booklet on healing would never have been published. The D&R booklet and policies would never have been instituted. The "cultural foundation" would have never been created and Harvest House would not become WCG property. But, HWA, apparently, had to be the "sole proprietor" who had to have his way in everything, hence his departure from the CofG 7th day. He wanted power, but was not qualified to be an elder. He had to create an organization so that he could be the boss. And isn't this the way all the splinters started? While HWA grew older, some of his subordinated were like vultures, circling around the fourth floor of the Hall of Ad, waiting for him to die in the hope that they would be able to inherit his throne. What could the WCG had been if they had the proper leadership structure? If only truly qualified people were in positions of authority? What is authority was properly defined, based on Scripture.
ReplyDeleteThe heretical doctrine of the church eras has always produced bad fruits, not the least of which are self-righteousness and name-calling. Generally, if you get to know individuals in them more deeply, groups of people are not monolithic. You can't make the assumption that everyone within a given group will have exactly the same attitudes and opinions. At the very least, church eras appear to be based on the helplessness of predestination, with little or no free will involved.
ReplyDeleteHow odd to comment on a post from 2011. Could be bait from a RCG supporter or even disgruntled UCG supporter.
ReplyDeleteSounds like a plumbing problem doesnt it?? "CLOG-WAD"!
ReplyDeleteThe explanation of how in Acts 15 on why James - not one of the 12 - rendered the final decision, was a tough one for them to "explain".
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 9:27 PM said, "Hoss said: “HWA did get a couple of things right. Can you please specify, according to you, what predictions he did get right?"
ReplyDeleteMY COMMENT - I am not Hoss, but agree with Hoss's assessment on HWA and prophecy. I would add that Herbert Armstrong's biggest prediction that he got right was one that he started preaching about back in the 1940s - the coming United States of Europe otherwise known as the European Union. When the European Union first came into existence, it was commonly referred to in the print media as "United States of Europe" which HWA coined.
Richard
Actually, he didn't coin it. It was used multiple times over the preceding century and during HWAs time as well. Napoleon Bonaparte, Victor Hugo, Trotsky, Wilhelm II, Churchill, etc.
DeleteThe COGs like to pretend he somehow was the only person to see that possibility, but advocates existed well before HWAs birth and during his earlier years.
Your commenter doesn't need a COG, they need a remedial English class.
ReplyDeleteTLA said, "The 7th day Churches of God have had several splits. The SDAs split from them (or vice versa)".
ReplyDeleteMY COMMENT - Actually, the COG and SDA co-existed together in the embryo from their inception during the Millerite movement. Neither splintered from the other except some SDAs left for COG because they rejected the visions of Ellen G. White.
Richard
Hoss said: "A few years ago I wrote a short piece on this at Painful Truth, based on Mark Armstrong's 50 years of prophetic accuracy or whatever it was called. And things he 'got right' were actually revealing of things he 'got wrong'. For example, the USA was never directly 'at war' with the USSR, but the USSR doesn't exist any more. Yes, East and West Germany were reunited, but that was a circumstance of Germany losing WW II. The Six Day War in 1967 did 'fulfill' his 'Bricket Wood Prophecy' but the timing was wrong, and it scuttled his plans to broadcast from Radio Jerusalem..."
ReplyDeleteRichard said: "I would add that Herbert Armstrong's biggest prediction that he got right was one that he started preaching about back in the 1940s - the coming United States of Europe otherwise known as the European Union. When the European Union first came into existence, it was commonly referred to in the print media as 'United States of Europe' which HWA coined."
I think I found your blogpost Hoss: https://hwarmstrong.com/blog/2016/03/27/he-was-right/
I don't disagree with either of you at all. He did get a couple of predictions correct imo (ie USSR would not invade America; East and West Germany would reunite; the rise of a "United States of Europe"). We might even add a 4th prediction imo that the UK will not be a part of the "United States of Europe" if Brexit does lead to a complete break of the UK with the EU in the next year or two. But, overall like Hoss said that's a very small percentage of correct "predictions" that are far outweighed by the hundreds of false prophecies he made over his decades long ministry.
Also, I believe Richard you meant to say that HWA "used" the term "United States of Europe" (some would say borrowed or even stole it) not that he "coined" ie "invented" it since according to the Painful Truth site it was a term that was used prior to WWII:
https://hwarmstrong.com/blog/2012/07/21/united-states-of-europe-prophesied-since-1934-herbert-w-armstrongs-stolen-idea/
https://hwarmstrong.com/eu-papers/stolen_ideas.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AORrIlQGATM
Anonymous 4:26 PM said, "Also, I believe Richard you meant to say that HWA "used" the term "United States of Europe" (some would say borrowed or even stole it) not that he "coined" ie "invented" it since according to the Painful Truth site it was a term that was used prior to WWII:"
ReplyDeleteRSK said, "Actually, he didn't coin it."
MY COMMENT - Agreed, and I stand corrected. HWA resurrected the use of the term to a new generation that had never heard it used before.
Richard
TLA said...
ReplyDeleteThe explanation of how in Acts 15 on why James - not one of the 12 - rendered the final decision, was a tough one for them to "explain".
Comment: With the death and then return of Jesus Christ to the heavenly Most Holy Place, James, the Lord’s brother, was now the legal King of the Jews.
2Ch 9:8 Blessed be the LORD thy God, which delighted in thee to set thee on his throne, to be king for the LORD thy God: because thy God loved Israel, to establish them for ever, therefore made he thee king over them, to do judgment and justice.
If Israel the Kingdom had been set up at the first advent then James would have sat on the throne of David, ruling for Jesus Christ, as his ancestor Solomon had done so at the start of his reign.
So it was fitting, (in consolation?), that James become head of the Jerusalem Church, that is the head of Israel the Church.
A descendant of James to rule for Jesus Christ when He sets up the kingdom at His second advent and return to heaven?
Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
With the “most Holy” of the Millennial Temple anointed Jesus Christ can then take up residence in Ezekiel’s Temple, just as He did in Moses’ Tabernacle and Solomon’s Temple.
Ex 6:7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God:
Ex 29:46 And they shall know that I am the LORD their God, that brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, that I may dwell among them: I am the LORD their God.
The Covenant trinity being renewed:
Israel will be God’s people
Jesus Christ will be their God (dynamic sense); and
God will dwell among them
See also Sir Arthur Salter’s “The United States of Europe and other papers,” published 1933. Salter also argued for a creation of a “United States of Europe” at the 1927 World Economic Conference sponsored by the League of Nations.