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Sunday, February 24, 2019
The Unspoken Split,Splinter or Sliver That Sprang From the Wildworld Church of God Experience
I use "Wildworld Church of God" because once, when taking the church teens roller skating, the DJ welcomed our group and announced it as "A Big Welcome to The teens of the Wildworld Church of God this evening" I recall thinking after the chuckle, "that fits."
Someone tell me what those videos are about. Give me the Cliff's Notes version. I'd hate to waste my time on yet another Dennis video (hell, three of them) without knowing why.
7:49 —— Y’all ever heard of self-deprecatin’ humor? You know. To diffuse? What should Uncle Denny have done? Angrilly confronted the announcer and told him “No, you scoffer! We’re God’s True Church!”???
Anonymous said... Wildword? Dennis, what were you doing there? Were you ever a true convert?
Yes, I was sincere and believed wholeheartedly to what I read from WCG. I came into contact with the church at 14 years old and for many reasons , personal and theological, I found it more satisfying than what I was growing up in, the Dutch Reformed Church. Being a church pastor, perhaps going to the Westminster Theological Seminary as the pastor of my youth did seemed possible. For some reason being a minister was always in the back of my youthful mind.
I also was very into science, dinosaurs, paleontology and cosmology from a very young age. In the Presbyterian experience, that was all a normal pursuit along side of the religious practices our family had.
There were many things I disagreed with in WCG and that was a normal mindset for me as well growing up. That's the Presbyterian way. I learned the hard way that was not the WCG way. So as not to blather, I thought I could be an instrument of change as HWA passed and grow up time came to the church. The STP project just as I went into ministry seemed an obvious step in that direction. All good. Then it got crushed, GTA was booted, scandal and receivership hit in my early ministry, then came the Tkaches with the old guard not yielding to new information and digging in and I knew it was over for me. Just how to deal with the results of it being over was the problem for me. I loved the people I served. Depression hit along with anxiety , which I see the symptoms in to this day in minister friends who still struggle through sermons on youtube trying to act like they want to be there.
My marriage came unglued during the Tkach years for which I accept complete responsibility. Depressed people don't handle everything in the best ways. The churches I pastored became hostile, divided and back stabling with me in the middle as the symbol of all they were concerned about. Tkach would lie to me asking about sincere questions members were demanding answers to. Was I converted? No, not in the classic WCG way whatever that meant. Am I converted now? No, all the childhood loves, science, dinosaurs, paleontology, evolution, cosmology and such have returned to inform me more than ever. In reality, I would have loved being a paleontologist or geologist, but it was the 60's and WCG hijacked my youthful interests and naivete'. I did stay too long for many reasons.
I am grateful to have moved on not having succumbed to the "come to our splinter Dennis" mistake. I did my time, learned my lessons and life goes on. And while I have a story, I am not my story which is why when comments from those bitter at ministers who for them I still represent arise, not bother me personally. I understand them but as I tell Gary when he sends me particularly nasty ones and do I mind or want him posting it, "I am unfuckwithable these days so post it. It might help someone see how perhaps they don't wish to be the rest of their life"
Ah, the old "you were not really converted" fallback. Anybody who questioned anything was hit with that. I was. Dennis is. Yeah, we were "converted" and whole hearted until reality started to take hold.
Anonymous said... Someone tell me what those videos are about. Give me the Cliff's Notes version. I'd hate to waste my time on yet another Dennis video (hell, three of them) without knowing why.
Sorry Short Attention Span Theater is hard for you. Each may be 3 to 5 minutes. But here's the Cliff Notes. I don't believe you don't have the time but I do know the feeling of not wanting to watch something that goes against our closely held beliefs. When I hear, "Oh don't tell me that" it usually means that it has the potential to make me think outside my box and I love the box I am in.
One can be evidence and not faith based which is the absence of evidence, and asking for evidence is quite a normal expectation.
There are over 3000 gods believed in on the planet 2999 of which the faith based reject as not real. Agnostics or atheists just reject one more than they do.
It is not necessary to always find out why. It is necessary to find out how.
Hope that helps
Now I am well aware that the Bible uses the terms of "prove me now herewith" in any number of ways, such as with the rewards of tithing, "and the sick shall be made well," "Whatever you ask in my name I will give it" "Deeds like this shall you do and greater.." "Behold I come quickly" and the promise that these are things "which shall shortly come to pass" etc...but I think we know in our hearts these things and many other faith based beliefs and practices are simply not so in reality and the evidence for them being so is truly the "evidence of things not seen"
Those videos ignore another option that I have seen is fairly common among ex-WCG people: Deism. An agnostic is unsure or unconvinced about God's existence. A Deist, by contrast, is convinced (or nearly so) that there is some intelligence above human intelligence within our Universe, but doesn't see any evidence that this intelligence has made itself clearly or consistently known throughout human history.
Good one, 2:13. Maybe so. Let's just call him ADH (anonymous Dennis hater). Trolls don't like it when we identify them as trolls, so ADH works. One can only hope that eventually ADH will make some contributions of actual value, rather than catcalls.
and too....I promise that if the Bible ever proves beyond a shadow of a doubt it is ahead of its time and not behind the times, and the Deity can just forgive because it likes to, being all wise, all knowing, all caring and all compassionate, without having to slaughter something and drain its fluids, I'll be back to the fold in a heart beat.
WEIRDWORLD CHURCH OF GOD, might be a more accurate descriptor!
ReplyDeleteI use "Wildworld Church of God" because once, when taking the church teens roller skating, the DJ welcomed our group and announced it as "A Big Welcome to The teens of the Wildworld Church of God this evening" I recall thinking after the chuckle, "that fits."
ReplyDeleteWildword?
ReplyDeleteDennis, what were you doing there? Were you ever a true convert?
Someone tell me what those videos are about. Give me the Cliff's Notes version. I'd hate to waste my time on yet another Dennis video (hell, three of them) without knowing why.
ReplyDeleteI think that this anonymous Dennis hater is really Dave Pack.
Delete7:49 —— Y’all ever heard of self-deprecatin’ humor? You know. To diffuse? What should Uncle Denny have done? Angrilly confronted the announcer and told him “No, you scoffer! We’re God’s True Church!”???
ReplyDelete8:39 misses the point entirely.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWildword?
Dennis, what were you doing there? Were you ever a true convert?
Yes, I was sincere and believed wholeheartedly to what I read from WCG. I came into contact with the church at 14 years old and for many reasons , personal and theological, I found it more satisfying than what I was growing up in, the Dutch Reformed Church. Being a church pastor, perhaps going to the Westminster Theological Seminary as the pastor of my youth did seemed possible. For some reason being a minister was always in the back of my youthful mind.
I also was very into science, dinosaurs, paleontology and cosmology from a very young age. In the Presbyterian experience, that was all a normal pursuit along side of the religious practices our family had.
There were many things I disagreed with in WCG and that was a normal mindset for me as well growing up. That's the Presbyterian way. I learned the hard way that was not the WCG way. So as not to blather, I thought I could be an instrument of change as HWA passed and grow up time came to the church. The STP project just as I went into ministry seemed an obvious step in that direction. All good. Then it got crushed, GTA was booted, scandal and receivership hit in my early ministry, then came the Tkaches with the old guard not yielding to new information and digging in and I knew it was over for me. Just how to deal with the results of it being over was the problem for me. I loved the people I served. Depression hit along with anxiety , which I see the symptoms in to this day in minister friends who still struggle through sermons on youtube trying to act like they want to be there.
My marriage came unglued during the Tkach years for which I accept complete responsibility. Depressed people don't handle everything in the best ways. The churches I pastored became hostile, divided and back stabling with me in the middle as the symbol of all they were concerned about. Tkach would lie to me asking about sincere questions members were demanding answers to. Was I converted? No, not in the classic WCG way whatever that meant. Am I converted now? No, all the childhood loves, science, dinosaurs, paleontology, evolution, cosmology and such have returned to inform me more than ever. In reality, I would have loved being a paleontologist or geologist, but it was the 60's and WCG hijacked my youthful interests and naivete'. I did stay too long for many reasons.
I am grateful to have moved on not having succumbed to the "come to our splinter Dennis" mistake. I did my time, learned my lessons and life goes on. And while I have a story, I am not my story which is why when comments from those bitter at ministers who for them I still represent arise, not bother me personally. I understand them but as I tell Gary when he sends me particularly nasty ones and do I mind or want him posting it, "I am unfuckwithable these days so post it. It might help someone see how perhaps they don't wish to be the rest of their life"
Ah, the old "you were not really converted" fallback. Anybody who questioned anything was hit with that. I was. Dennis is. Yeah, we were "converted" and whole hearted until reality started to take hold.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteSomeone tell me what those videos are about. Give me the Cliff's Notes version. I'd hate to waste my time on yet another Dennis video (hell, three of them) without knowing why.
Sorry Short Attention Span Theater is hard for you. Each may be 3 to 5 minutes. But here's the Cliff Notes. I don't believe you don't have the time but I do know the feeling of not wanting to watch something that goes against our closely held beliefs. When I hear, "Oh don't tell me that" it usually means that it has the potential to make me think outside my box and I love the box I am in.
One can be evidence and not faith based which is the absence of evidence, and asking for evidence is quite a normal expectation.
There are over 3000 gods believed in on the planet 2999 of which the faith based reject as not real. Agnostics or atheists just reject one more than they do.
It is not necessary to always find out why. It is necessary to find out how.
Hope that helps
Now I am well aware that the Bible uses the terms of "prove me now herewith" in any number of ways, such as with the rewards of tithing, "and the sick shall be made well," "Whatever you ask in my name I will give it" "Deeds like this shall you do and greater.." "Behold I come quickly" and the promise that these are things "which shall shortly come to pass" etc...but I think we know in our hearts these things and many other faith based beliefs and practices are simply not so in reality and the evidence for them being so is truly the "evidence of things not seen"
Those videos ignore another option that I have seen is fairly common among ex-WCG people: Deism. An agnostic is unsure or unconvinced about God's existence. A Deist, by contrast, is convinced (or nearly so) that there is some intelligence above human intelligence within our Universe, but doesn't see any evidence that this intelligence has made itself clearly or consistently known throughout human history.
ReplyDeleteGood one, 2:13. Maybe so. Let's just call him ADH (anonymous Dennis hater). Trolls don't like it when we identify them as trolls, so ADH works. One can only hope that eventually ADH will make some contributions of actual value, rather than catcalls.
ReplyDeleteBB
It was nice knowing everything, but it is better not to be delusional.
ReplyDeleteand too....I promise that if the Bible ever proves beyond a shadow of a doubt it is ahead of its time and not behind the times, and the Deity can just forgive because it likes to, being all wise, all knowing, all caring and all compassionate, without having to slaughter something and drain its fluids, I'll be back to the fold in a heart beat.
ReplyDeleteSo, philopsophers rose up and said, "If there is a God, God is either not all-powerful or not all-good."
ReplyDeleteThat is a black or white fallacy.
"I have no problems if as we probe the origins of things, we bump into the Bearded Man."
What happens if we just bump into a more advanced life-form and their 'magical' technology. I would even wonder if they have done the same?
DBP