Families have turned their backs on other family members. Long held friendships evaporated over night. People would meet each other in stores and turn their backs and walk away. Others would cross the street if they saw former friends walking down the street towards them.
I saw this over and over in the Dayton, Ohio church and especially in Pasadena where disfellowshipments were a weekly occurrence, as people were deliberately shamed from the pulpit by vengeful ministers. Even more revolting is when these jerks stood up there and said this was being done out of "love" and it was to be a time for the person to reflect upon whatever they had done wrong. Never had a disfellowhipment in the Church of God ever been done out of love. Its main purpose was to instill fear into the wayward member that their eternal salvation was now at risk. They had lost their chance to go to Petra and eventually into the Kingdom of God.
This is not something unique to us, but is also a tool of oppression in other Millerite cults.
Checkout this article from a Jehovahs Witness on the vile tradition in their own group which is exactly like I have seen COG members do to their own family members.
You can read here how the JW's justify why they do it, and it is just as sick as the COG excuses.This is a picture of my dad eating. He had just made lunch for me, but he couldn’t eat it with me. I had to eat it at another table with my four-year-old son while he sat there away from me.Why? Because that’s what the Watch Tower Society tells him to do.I posted this picture on a Facebook forum October 26, 2013. The first response I received was, “Don’t know what to say. This boggles the mind; mind-control religion at its very worst!”Minutes later a flood of comments and “Likes” followed, reminding me that a good picture can easily replace a thousand words.
For those of you who are curious, I must explain that my extended family began shunning me a year ago after I questioned the authority of the Watchtower’s Governing Body. My family’s unanimous well-meaning response to my doubts was by expressing their opinion that I “must be an apostate” and “severe shunning would surely bring me to my senses.”After my mother died eight months ago, my dad, being all alone, went to the elders in the congregation he attended to see if he’d be allowed to visit with me. They said that since I was his son, he could visit with me at his house. But he could not discuss religion – nor could he share a meal with me at the same table.Two weeks ago, I called my dad and asked if his grandson and I could visit him. He said “yes” and even offered to make lunch. But shortly before serving the meal, he said that he wasn’t going to sit at the same table with us. When I asked why, his reply was, “The organization says so.”That confession allowed me to vent my feelings for maybe thirty minutes, describing to him about the harm caused by shunning and other Watchtower policies. He listened politely. But I could see that he was not in a “cognitive dissonance mode” – so nothing I said registered with him.After I spoke my piece, he served a nice meal to me and my son. Then he chose to sit alone in a small area of the kitchen with his back turned to us while eating his lunch. I sat there speechless, trying to figure out what was going on in his mind. Shameful Shunning in a Thousand Word
Why Disfellowshipping Is a Loving ProvisionLiving Church of God even feels they can "mark" you even if you are not a member of their group.
Here is what Dexter Wakefield has to say on it:
Can a person who is not a member of the Living Church of God be disfellowshipped? No. Can a person who is not a member of the Living Church of God be “marked?” Yes. So there is a difference in the two. Can you explain what it is? Disfellowhipping and Marking
Know what the really crazy thing is? After I left, nobody shunned me. I had some quite pleasant and lengthy discussions with people who were still attending. Some even tried to convince me that things had really changed, and that they hoped I’d come back. None of them were the least bit condescending. I was even contracted to do some work for one of the departments at the college, and everyone was all smiles just as they had been previously. Never could figure that one out. I even realized how much I missed some of them, but those emotions were not sufficient to override the logic which had led to leaving.
ReplyDeleteThere may be a lesson in that for the people that feel that marking and shunning are the most efficient way to bring someone back into the fold. Unconditional love is more persuasive than making a former member into a nonperson.
BB
I am not, nor have I ever been, a member of LCG, so why would I care if they "mark" me?
ReplyDeleteI has been my experience through the years that ministers can give fantastic sermons, right on the money doctrine wise, yet their understanding is quite shallow on most things. Baffles me.
Wakefield knows that LCG doesn't really abide by disfellowshipping/marking decisions. At least two non-minister members of Rod Meredith's family have continued to fellowship with the Scarboroughs from time to time after they were disfellowshipped. As with most things in LCG, disfellowshipping/marking is a power play meant to show who's the boss, so it follows that when a minister or his family violate a marking, there will be no consequence, but for an ordinary member the consequences may be severe.
ReplyDelete10.47 AM
ReplyDeleteOn the money sermons are often copies of someone else's original material. That is, it's 'stolen' intellectual property. The person who originated the sermon is typically a non representative member of the church. Which is why for instance, some material from this blog appears in ACOG articles.
Not forgetting, 'those who can't, teach' is true. Knowledge and comprehension/skills are two different qualities. Most ministers would struggle living and getting a job in the 'real' world. I've seen this in people who live in ivory towers, such as teaches and work bosses. They fear and shun the real world that the unwashed masses are forced to live in. Dave Packs compound and similar, are a physical manifestations of this.
If it's really God's church and Jesus Christ's sacrifice makes membership possible and God's the one who calls people into it, what makes ANY man think that he has the authority to put someone out of it? If Jesus Christ is the good shepherd and the head of the sheepfold and Satan is roaming about seeking whom he may devour, how can one possibly justify one of the sheep throwing another member of the flock out of the fold? What about Christ's parable of the tares?
ReplyDeleteThese folks like to point to what Paul did to a man in the Corinthian Church, but the reference is usually just as shallow as the rest of their theology. Remember, Paul did what he did because the other members of the congregation condoned the man's sins. And, later, he instructed them to accept the man back into their ranks so that he wouldn't be "swallowed up with overmuch sorrow." Finally, try for a moment to imagine the arrogance involved in claiming the same judgment and authority as the Apostle Paul!
As for "marking" people, these folks need a good concordance/Greek lexicon! It takes a few seconds to see that the Greek indicates taking notice of a person - like you would notice someone who walked down the street in the buff! There is NOTHING in these verses to suggest someone publicly calling out one of their members from the pulpit.
No, rather than servants of God, these folks remind me of Diotrephes. They love to have a preeminent position in the church, publicly disparage people and cast people out of the church!
If it wasn't so terrible, it would be funny. These folks who take so much pride in the fact that they are so distinctive and different from the rest of Christianity are in good company on this one! Roman Catholics excommunicate and Jehovah's Witnesses, Church of Christ and Mormons disfellowship and the Amish shun. Interestingly, the Catholic's first defense of their practice is the fact that they are a human society, and that all such societies have the right to exclude folks who don't conform to their standards - that makes more sense than trying to appeal to Scripture!
BB - maybe you are just lovable!
ReplyDeletePeople have a lot of different beliefs - in and out of the COGs. We can still all be friendly, and most of us are.
Disfellowshipping, Marking or Booting was, of course, a common practice in WCG, especially from the '70;s and on. (My timing coming into WCG and then the ministry was remarkably bad).
ReplyDeleteIt was how you fulfilled Paul's admonition in I Cor 1:10
“Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.”
You know how I feel about all speaking the same thing, not so we can be correct, but so that we can not have divisions or disagreements. But this concept is the glue that justifies all WCG ways of booting out "those who observe, formerly known as scoffers" or had problems the church was ill-equipped to address and often unwilling to.
When I came to SC, a huge number of people had been disfellowshipped by the previous pastor for all sorts of problems that would better have been addressed with kindness, compassion and real help to overcome them. All the good folk I met who had been ousted wanted to be IN the Church. They did not want to have the problems they had nor did they want to be outside the church being "prayed for" and "wished no ill will." They wanted their support network and friends. I brought ne really nice fellow, (dozens over who wanted to come back) who indeed did have a drinking problem and was a bonified alcoholic was coming to my home to see what help we could get him, drove around my block and then went home and committed suicide.
The bigger problem and reality is that it is the BIBLE itself that promotes these approaches and we all know it. It is not just some crazy way some churches or ministers come up with to keep from having to address problems or legitimate theological questions.
I Cor. 5:11
"But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people."
Granted, willful this or that would naturally lead to wanting to poison the well, but I found nice people who struggled with all these issues and many far LESS important, thrown to the wolves by the Church. Anyone who says they don't or haven't are liars supreme. It is one thing to do and be these things willfully with no conscience etc and another to struggle with being a human being in a stressful culture or stuck with genetic tendencies.
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ReplyDelete1 Corinthians 5:1-13
It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. ... "
How this "saves one's spirit" is left up to who knows what.
Matthew 18:17
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Problem with this is that it can be misused to get rid of those who might have something to offer but it does not match what church or ministry wants to hear.
Romans 16:17
I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.
Titus 3:10-11
As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
2 Thessalonians 3:14-15
If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.
This is the source for "we wish them no harm but rather that they would repent" line in WCG disfellowshipping.
and so on....
I find it amusing that leaders of the UCG will now meet with leaders of the CGI, (Teds old church), and "somehow" the old disfellowshipments and markings have magically disappeared like a fart in the wind.
ReplyDeleteSame thing happens at the ever more frequent COG funerals that are occurring. These old AC minister types , who had gone to battle, disfellowshipped and marked each other, along with other "marked and shamed" brethren all get together and have a "reunion" of sorts. Usually the ministers from the opposing supposed enemy groups mostly hang around with each other chit chatting about "the good old days".
So I have a question to ask of all of the COGS... are disfellowshipments only good for a limited time? Do they expire after a certain amount of time? Do they have to get "renewed"? Are disfellowshipments from the old WCG now expired since that particular incorporation no longer exists?
So hard to keep track of all of the current and past disfellowshipments! Hey, we live in the computer age, and there should be a website with the current status of all disfellowshipments across the COG spectrum, sort of like a Meghans list, should there not?
NOT! Again, the practice is silly. Most people who want to sin wantonly or have lost faith, will simply leave on their own. There are RARE cases of having to require people not to come to church, but nearly all of the time, this can be done privately and without the public hoopla and collateral embarrassment for all.
Most people who want to sin wantonly or have lost faith, will simply leave on their own. There are RARE cases of having to require people not to come to church, but nearly all of the time, this can be done privately and without the public hoopla and collateral embarrassment for all.
ReplyDeleteYou're missing the point. Despite what the ministers often tell you, disfellowshipping and marking are meant to influence the remaining brethren not for the departed. If a disfellowshipped or marked person does dare to come around and influence the brethren, the ministry wants to be sure that the brethren have already turned against those ex-members.
This is how Rod McNair made such a fool of himself in handling his disfellowship of Patrick and Elizabeth Scarborough. Rod decided that it wasn't enough that the Scarboroughs be disfellowshipped from LCG. No, vain moron Rod decided that it was his duty to contact COGWA's Charlotte-area minister, to try to use the old tool of ministerial gossip (Dennis knows this one all too well from his experience with Gerald Weston and other WCG pastors) to defame the Scarboroughs in the eyes of their new pastor.
ReplyDeleteFortunately, COGWA's Charlotte pastor displayed 1000x the integrity and Christian character of Rod McNair, and refused to go along with Rod's bully/slander tactics. Rod's action, as it turned out, didn't damage the Scarboroughs' reputation as he intended. Instead, it damaged LCG's reputation in the eyes of COGWA.
Aethists will mark you and reject you the same way. Lesbians will reject a woman who goes back to a man. LGBTQ movement will mark you if you disagree with them. Democrats and republicans, fox news reporters that go to MSNBC, reporters that say the news is mostly liberal.... The list is endless.
ReplyDeleteTry being a Muslim that turns to any other religion. What happens to Muslims in the mideast that become atheists? I am sure they are received with open arms.
Too binary, 10:40. Much too black and white. You are only seeing the polar opposites, the ones who are tenaciously fighting for a cause or side. These tend to be the most visible ones, but most people just live life and quietly avoid confrontation as appropriate or possible.
DeleteI will grant you this: As Armstrongites, we were programmed to believe that it was us against the entire rest of the world. That was perhaps the ultimate “us against them” mentality. Subconciously, ex-members often carry that into their recovery and post-Armstrong life. We should be looking for opportunities to establish common ground, and to relate to others, to become full participants capable of mending fences and orchestrating solutions. Anyone can be a polarizing influence. Polarization is the cheapest form of leadership known to man. You might recognize it by its other name: divide and conquer.
BB
It is absolutely ok to point out black and white situations. They are real and happen regularly.
DeleteThe church is just like this... But so are the people that leave. There are no gray areas for ministers like hwa or pcg's ministers. If there were this site's comments would be of an entirely different caliber.
It would be better if many millstones had been hung around the necks of these ministers and been drowned in the depths of the sea, than for all of these little ones to have been offended.
ReplyDeleteMost brethren do not read their Bibles, therefore they do not understand what it is they are really supposed to avoid. Dennis outlined it very well. The things we are truly supposed to avoid and have no fellowship with, are those things which will drag us away from walking after Christ and becoming more like him. I.E.: Adultery, idolatry, etc... Its not whatever comes out of the mouth of the minister that we must avoid (somethings yes). There is a reason we are told to "try the spirits". What Ive noticed is that many "follow the spirits".
Wake up laymembers, blow the dust off of whatever Bible you have, crack them and dig in. Its your salvation you must work out.
It would be better if many millstones had been hung around the necks of these ministers and been drowned in the depths of the sea, than for all of these little ones to have been offended.
ReplyDeleteMost brethren do not read their Bibles, therefore they do not understand what it is they are really supposed to avoid. Dennis outlined it very well. The things we are truly supposed to avoid and have no fellowship with, are those things which will drag us away from walking after Christ and becoming more like him. I.E.: Adultery, idolatry, etc... Its not whatever comes out of the mouth of the minister that we must avoid (somethings yes). There is a reason we are told to "try the spirits". What Ive noticed is that many "follow the spirits".
Wake up laymembers, blow the dust off of whatever Bible you have, crack them and dig in. Its your salvation you must work out.