"Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?... And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
(Matthew 27:45-53)
(Matthew 27:45-53)
What might this tale be all about? Never mind that no one.in the New Testament Church ever mentions this event again. The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, writing during the second half of the first century AD, produced two major works: History of the Jewish War and Antiquities of the Jews. He says nothing about this most extraordinary occurrence. This one missed his attention so he reports nothing of this, and misses an opportunity to interview any of the "many" who must have been around for years after just itching to be asked about how it felt to be resurrected at the time of Jesus death.
Peter never mentions it in all his attempts to convince the masses that Jesus did rise, in fact, from the dead. Paul never mentions this event as proof of Jesus resurrection either. Of course, the Gospels were written long after Paul lived, wrote and died so he never heard the tale in the first place. Paul made a great deal out of the man he knew who was caught up to the third heaven seeing and hearing things that no man was allowed to see or know. You'd think if he knew that, he'd mention risen Saints at Jesus death but he knows nothing of it.
Anyway...
The fact that these risen saints must have lived on and been members of the early Church never seems to come up. You'd think they at least would get to be deacons and elders! Pretty impressive to have you Elder being one of the dead raised when Jesus was on the cross. Perhaps they died, rose and died again the same day when whatever the point that was being made was made but that seems a lotta work for a little benefit since it didn't seem to leave much of an impression on anyone but Matthew.
But there was a problem in the text...
So here we have Jesus on the cross, still alive and distressed that God has forsaken him. At this time it appears, or perhaps by implication, at the moment of his death, the graves of many of the "saints" open and they rise from the dead. Well not quite yet because it appears someone spotted a problem with this verse and added just a bit to make it doctrinally acceptable for future reads.
But first, how can these newly dead, I assume newly because if they had died any further back than one to three years, depending on which Gospel you read as to the length of Jesus ministry, they never would have even heard of Jesus in their first life. (John has Jesus around for three Passovers. The Synoptics only one.) They would not be qualified as "Saints" or even disciples if they had never heard of Jesus.
Aren't saints members in good standing of the Church and converted Christians? Jesus is not even dead yet, or just died! There is no church and certainly no saints unless just following Jesus around as a curious follower the past one or three years qualified one as a "saint." The use of the word "Saints" is an indicator that the story was written by one author many years later when there actually were Christian Saints. It certainly is not an eyewitness account of anything. All four Gospels are not eyewitness accounts of the events they report.
Secondly, it says that it was a resurrection of "many bodies of the saints." Many? What happened to "all." There could not have been too many to leave some behind! Can you imagine the conversations that must have followed in the weeks following this event?
"Hey, Shlomo is back! So, where is your Benjamin? Oh, really? Not one of the many huh? Sorry."
Anyway, it seems that only the many but not the all got raised. I wonder what criteria were used to choose some over others?
Next we have the problem of the graves being opened, but no one being allowed to come out of them until after Jesus personal resurrection. This is where being doctrinally correct comes in.
A later editor spotted a doctrinal problem where the story could not have Jesus being preceded in resurrection, by any, much less, many of the "saints." This would be putting the cart before the horse. Jesus could not be the "first born of many brethren," (Romans 8:29), if many of the brethren had already been up and running from the dead while Jesus was either on the cross wondering why God had forsaken him, or newly dead and not yet resurrected himself. One might also view Lazarus as "the first born of many brethren" but that issue doesn't seem to come up. So the phrase, "after his resurrection" was inserted to make this a doctrinally correct event. Had that phrase, "after his resurrection," not been added, the story would be an unending source of doctrinal problems and a recognition that Jesus was not the first born of many brethren. The many brethren would have been first born before him.
Back to the story...
So here we have these graves opened, but the bodies just lying there, open to view evidently. Then, after Jesus rose, the bodies stood up and went home to see the family and friends. You'd think someone would have mentioned this later, but it didn't make much of an impression on anyone but Matthew it seems. I say Matthew but the original Gospels were anonymous books and the well known names were added much later for credibility reasons. We also have to realize that none of the disciples were witnesses to any of this since they had all fled just prior to the Crucifixion. Perhaps "Matthew" had forgotten this fact, although he mentions it himself in 26:56.
If the graves were opened for three days, would not word get out and the town get about the business of filling them in again? If they were fresh bodies, what a stink and if they were alive, fresh bodies laying low for now, what a scare! No doubt, word would have gotten out in the three days after Jesus death that graves around Jerusalem were open with exposed bodies or living people not yet able to get up. Crowds would have gathered around the graves perhaps encouraging the now risen but not yet raised to be patient for a few days?
Well, it's a great story that no one but Matthew seems to be aware of or use to further the Gospel. Knowing the writer of Matthew, it never happened. Matthew was great at over reaching and searching the scriptures to make a point about Jesus. Matthew could make an Old Testament story mean what it was never meant to mean. All of Matthew's "and thus it was fulfilled" accounts in the birth narratives of Jesus, where he goes back into the Old Testament, "searching the scriptures", to prove everything from Jesus virgin birth to it being predicted that he would be from Nazareth or return out of Egypt after Herod dies, are examples of this over reaching. No one else quite had this way of proving the birth circumstances and drama down pat as well as Matthew. . It would be a bit like me using portions of Lord of the Rings to show how Tolkien prophecied the war in Iraq.
Eventually the Saints rise and able to leave the graves. Off to visit friends in Jerusalem these saints went. But we have no names and no further accounts. We have no stories of happy reunions of the dead with the living. No one seems to write about this in any public records and no one ever after uses this event to further the proof of Jesus resurrection or the power of God. Actually, it never happened in time, space or history. Perhaps the story had meaning to "Matthew." It had no meaning to anyone else in the NT. Perhaps it was someone's "type" of the General Resurrection but creating the story created a future doctrinal problem as shown by a simple insertion of the words "after his resurrection" by a genuine Saint many years later before he died and as far as we know is still dead.
"So here we have Jesus on the cross, still alive and distressed that God has forsaken him. At this time it appears, or perhaps by implication, at the moment of his death, the graves of many of the "saints" open and they rise from the dead."
ReplyDeletewell, no, actually.....
they were raised when Jesus was... it appears that those that had died within the last 3 days were also resurrected, the power of the Holy Spirit was so strong that there was bleedover and others that had died in the same timeframe as Jesus were also resurrected.
it's all quite simple.
(the great earthquake happened at the resurrection also, not while Jesus was hanging on the cross)
The resurrection of these people was not a news event but a theological event. Jesus resurrected others, including Lazarus, and there is no particular attention given to them in the NT or Church History. If I had been there, I would have interviewed Lazarus, asked him many unnecessary questions and would have written it up like a news event. Was there an Intermediate State? What was it like? Who did you meet? And on.
ReplyDeleteBut I was not there and the account accomplished the theological purpose intended. Even the way it treats doctrine tells us something.
This lack of an account from the resurrected is compatible with the fact that the disciples left us no detailed information about life in Paradise, yet they accompanied Jesus for some time and must have asked him many questions when they finally caught on to what was
happening.
Another anti bible article by Dennis. I feel like putting myself into a coma.
ReplyDeleteThe Bible is an anthology whose theme is the story of a creator and his relationship with the beings whom he created. As such, there is a strong supernatural aspect. Since it is an ancient work, we can only judge its merits based our experiences today in our own lifetimes.
ReplyDeleteJosephus was a military man, and historians believe that he was also very much an insider to the Temple establishment, since he seems to have had access to the written records contained there as reference for his works. This is, of course, the Temple establishment that rejected Jesus. Josephus wrote his works for a cruel, persecutorial emperor, and his works were a literary attempt to demonstrate for that emperor that the Jews were a great people with a rich history. He did write about miraculous events. At one point he mentions that the pillar of salt that had been Lot's wife was still in existence for everyone to see. However, beholden as he was to his patrons, it would have been in his best interests to diminish Jesus, writing as little as possible. After all, to the Roman government, Jesus was simply an executed criminal, a seditionist. Why give him credibility?
It's good to ask questions. There has been some talk about Dennis trying to destroy peoples' faith. This does not destroy mine. We live in an entirely different era from the foundational one portrayed in the Bible. Miracles, since they defy the laws of the universe, are never going to make a heck of a lot of sense. That's why they are miracles.
BB
Jesus wasn't resurrected into his previous physical life; that's why he wasn't recognized, and how he could walk into a room without using the door.
ReplyDeleteThe people mentioned in Matthew 27 were, like Lazarus, resurrected to physical life.
The Matthew account is problematic as history, not as theology.
"The resurrection of these people was not a news event but a theological event. Jesus resurrected others, including Lazarus, and there is no particular attention given to them in the NT or Church History. If I had been there, I would have interviewed Lazarus, asked him many unnecessary questions and would have written it up like a news event. Was there an Intermediate State? What was it like? Who did you meet? And on."
ReplyDeleteGet real, already! If stupendous events like these had occurred, it would have rocked the world all the way to Rome. The authorities would have investigated. Historians would have recorded the hoopla. There would have been reports to Caesar. These are fantasies written long after the time to keep unthinking people in awe.
Another case of how the infallible word of a god that's so weak he can't even do his own dirty work just falls completely apart upon even the most rudimentary attempt to place it into the real world.
ReplyDeleteLove how Anon9:18AM can't take it. As though his threat to place himself in a coma should somehow be construed as a conterargument... LOL! It's the best apologetics he could come up with I guess. If you wish to put yourself in a coma, please, be my guest. Now you know how the rest of us feel when folks like NEO, Nck, BB or others yammer on in the most inane fashion about how ancient comic book superheroes are sooo much more plausible than modern ones. If Jesus is totes real, then so is Superman. It's the same thing. Oh, sure, we live in a "different era" now in which entirely "different" things happen. Evidence? Of course there is none. Why don't they believe in every other lie, fairy tale, and conspiracy theory for which there is also no evidence? If they were consistent, they should. So much wanting to have your cake and eat it too. So much silliness.
Why try to defend the indefensible? Why even attempt to rationalize the obviously unbelievable - just let it go and admit that the NT writers were extrapolating, inventing, exaggerating and interpolating much of what they wrote. The opening graves business is pure embellishment to make a more dramatic story.
ReplyDeleteTo base any faith or belief in the factuality of this story just shows that some people will believe anything once they've switched their brains off...deep, deep, deep down, you must know it didn't happen, right?
Was John the only one to write about the resurrection of Lazarus and also, was John somehow anticipating the resurrection of Jesus?
ReplyDeleteDBP
"Was John the only one to write about the resurrection of Lazarus..."
ReplyDeleteYes. (John 11:1–44)
"...and also, was John somehow anticipating the resurrection of Jesus?"
No, bibleJohn wasn't anticipating anything. By the time bibleJohn wrote, at the very least biblePaul had already made that part up, as well as bibleMark, and most likely bibleMatthew and bibleLuke. Some others may also have had some fun spinning Jesus resurrection yarns as well before bibleJohn ever set quill to parchment. It's analogous to asking if a new Disney Star Wars fan fiction prequel movie was "anticipating" the stories that George Lucas already told in the first 9 films.
The problem with 11.09 AM and 4.43 PM comments about supposed lies, fairy tales, and switching the brain off etc, is...that there is a God who communicates directly with those who put out effort to do the right thing. He puts thoughts, or speaks words into peoples minds with a unique emotional feel. I find it hard to believe that Dennis never experienced this as a minister. Especially when dealing with people in his official capacity. To me, he is a spiritual Benedict Arnold.
ReplyDeleteDexter said: "The authorities would have investigated. Historians would have recorded the hoopla."
ReplyDeleteNo. The authorities would have just not believed the reports - like you.
"These are fantasies written long after the time to keep unthinking people in awe."
The timing of the writing has nothing to do its veracity. The truth can be recorded immediately or later.
Anon 5:18 PM correctly observes:
ReplyDeletethere is a God who communicates directly with those who put out effort to do the right thing. He puts thoughts, or speaks words into peoples minds with a unique emotional feel.
What he misses is that this God puts thoughts into the minds of Muslims and attributes those thoughts to Allah, and he puts them into the minds of Hindus and attributes them to Krishna, and he puts them into the minds of Catholics and attributes them to Mary, etc. etc. The god who does this is either a god of confusion, or he is no god at all and is simply the way people label their own god-haunted thoughts.
I read this posting and it was quite obvious that the one posting it desires to destroy the value of the Christian religion. I am sure why a person would desire to destroy the bible that has given a way of life that offers the strongest pattern for human beings to build a life that would create a world where people were concerned about the right way of living rather than all the flaws and failings. I am more concerned about being a person that contributes to love, joy, peace, goodness, faithfulness, kindness, self control, etc ; rather that bad mouthing the biblical contributors. Most of the families and friends that I and my wife are associated with are Christians or share Christian beliefs. We may be struggling with old age, but the faith, hope, and love the bible presents keeps life positive rather than negative. ASB
ReplyDeleteMr. Diehl,
ReplyDeleteHow come you never give us any easy ones for Adult Sabbath School?
To answer this I first consulted with the ultimate authority on difficult scriptures and there was nothing on Dave Pack's web site concerning this subject.
Remember saints are talked about throughout the Old Testament so a saint wouldn't have to be a technical church member "after" Christ's death.
Did Matthew blunder the descriptive order of the death, earthquakes, darkness, temple veil and resurrections? Many believe Christ was preaching to the spirits in prison right after his death based upon 1 Pet. 3:18-20. The Greek words for "rise" (on the third day) and (after the) "resurrection" are different. Furthermore, Rom. 8:11 records; the spirit that "raised" Jesus using a different Greek word. The Greek words for resurrection and raised are similar and can mean awaken or roused from sleep. There is the possibility that Christ was immediately awakened (resurrected), able to preach to the spirits all the while still in the "tomb" for three days after which he was risen. So Matthew's narrative could be correct concerning the saints coming out of the tombs the same day that everything else happened.
As far as what happened to the resurrected saints going forward, it looks to be just a manifestation unto many in the holy city and that was the end of it - they "appeared" and later dis-appeared.
The details of long ago historical facts making their way through many different languages and possible writers or editors unscathed is probably in the low percentage points, but for the many that have experienced a calling, experienced the dynamic of change or witnessed miracles, they understand there is a Being not confined to time and space and that "we" are in a religion of forward thinking. It is not about where you were or where you are - it is about where you are going. Many of the same people have and do understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear Heb. 11:3.
6.36 PM
ReplyDeleteGod is no respecter of persons. He does not play favorites. Which means that one can always reality test whether God communicates with those striving to live a Christian life. But the problem is that people are deeply in love with various sins, hence it doesn't happen. So they come to Banned, and in their envy, mock those who have managed a relationship with God. It's like crabs in a bucket that constantly pull down other crabs trying to escape.
6:36, you've got to take the opinions of a few evangelizing atheists with a grain of salt. They can't definitively prove their stuff either. Same problem. No time machine. Really cool people out there are or were believers in God, like the members of the Lynyrd Skynyrd Band, Stevie Ray Vaughan, Eric Clapton, and just about all of NASCAR. And, those believers actually have talent to share with us, a positive thing that provides relief from life's problems, making life more enjoyable!
ReplyDeleteBB
Most of the new testament is not backed-up by any historians who lived in or near that time period. There is no secondary search that backs up the historical accuracy of most of the new testament.
ReplyDeleteHello 11:09
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry if you are not able to see my past contributions on this specific topic on how Islam wrestled with the question of "the prophet jesus'resurection and mixed syriac christianity with jewish history and belief systems from earle jerusalwm christianity seeking refuge in medina, to come to a conclusion.
My comments are intended to enlighten on the beliefs of 4 billion people, not to prove that they are "true". Although I might propose the benefits of one religion as opposed to another.
I would not even critizise the likings of billions of dollars the Dan Brown movies made over a watered down version of narrative of an older narrative that has taken me on a quest around the world, peoples and cultures and power players that constitute the trees that ONLY A FEW will recognize since the MANY are distracted by the forrest.
I don't mind the masses living by the visible rules of the forrest. I will not critisize them if they find solace in the forrest. I'm in peace behind the curtain, talking to the wizzards of oz, who by the way freely admitted to hwa that they sought guidance. (until american culture, individualism and greed poisened the planet under the cloak of ac reinvention of the term "pursuit of happiness" into the religion of consumerism)
I'm fine with Dennis asking the age old philosophical questions? Why do I need this? Whom does it benefit? And what are we going to do about it?
Nck
Anonymous What About The Truth said,March 29, 2019 at 8:50 PM,said: "...Remember saints are talked about throughout the Old Testament so a saint wouldn't have to be a technical church member "after" Christ's death.
ReplyDeleteDid Matthew blunder the descriptive order of the death, earthquakes, darkness, temple veil and resurrections? Many believe Christ was preaching to the spirits in prison right after his death based upon 1 Pet. 3:18-20. The Greek words for "rise" (on the third day) and (after the) "resurrection" are different. Furthermore, Rom. 8:11 records; the spirit that "raised" Jesus using a different Greek word. The Greek words for resurrection and raised are similar and can mean awaken or roused from sleep. There is the possibility that Christ was immediately awakened (resurrected), able to preach to the spirits all the while still in the "tomb" for three days after which he was risen. So Matthew's narrative could be correct concerning the saints coming out of the tombs the same day that everything else happened.
As far as what happened to the resurrected saints going forward, it looks to be just a manifestation unto many in the holy city and that was the end of it - they "appeared" and later dis-appeared.
The details of long ago historical facts making their way through many different languages and possible writers or editors unscathed is probably in the low percentage points, but for the many that have experienced a calling, experienced the dynamic of change or witnessed miracles, they understand there is a Being not confined to time and space and that "we" are in a religion of forward thinking. It is not about where you were or where you are - it is about where you are going. Many of the same people have and do understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear Heb. 11:3..."
Interesting points there. FWIIW, Paul's following words may be a reference to those resurrections in question:
Acts 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Those resurrected may just be amongst those "witnesses chosen before of God."
God does have 2 overall future resurrections planned; thee is no need for a 3rd.
Everyone from Adam and Eve onwards (except Jesus Christ, of course) will be resurrected...and we are all going to be witnesses of what went on in the past when we formerly lived (assuming we all have died once: Heb 9:27!).
We know virtually nothing about those resurrected, but God knows if they actually were "witnesses chosen before of God," which I do believe. Who knows, but some of those resurrected may have eventually become members of God's Church back then.
Time will tell...
John
Byker, of all people I am shocked that you would fall for the bandwagon and ad hominem fallacies.
ReplyDeleteYes, there are "cool" Christians. Just as there are "cool" Muslims like Yusuf Islam (aka Cat Stevens) and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Also cool Hindus and Jews. If God is putting His thoughts directly into all their minds, and yours, we can safely throw out all the sacred scriptures as lies.
Well, 5:22, fallacy is as fallacy does, if indeed your application of those terms to me without even knowing who I am and how I conduct my life is accurate. My point is and was that my beliefs are not hurting me, nor do the beliefs of the broad majority of other believers hurt them. When we were Armstrongites, our beliefs not only hurt ourselves but also all of those who had the misfortune of becoming close to us.
DeleteIn non-communist countries, most of those whom we consider to be exemplary atheists practice the best of what we Christians call “Christian” ethics, although they practice them in a secular manner. Because of this, we refer to them as secular humanists.
BB
For those who rationalize that we should be very careful when trying to understand the culture, thought processes and language for the ancient people who wrote the Bible, I would say that we'll never arrive at exactly what they meant any more than we'll never fully know exactly what Shakespeare was attempting to convey in his poetry...not exactly. So that leaves us with the question, 'Why is it up to us, in 2019 (or any other year) to figure out a puzzle? Thank god he/it gave us theologians who can agree about what those ancient texts mean, right? Since we're talking about eternal life and eternal death, a god who really cared would leave absolutely no doubt about what he meant at any time throughout history and would not have left us the wobbly job of hoping to make sense of it all.
ReplyDeletePersonally and in my experience, from a child, I have found asking questions of the Bible of things that obviously beg for an explanation as to it being literally true or perhaps not so much is a problem for those I ask questions of.
ReplyDeleteI was told to leave catechism class once when about 12 for asking too many questions. They were good ones for a 12 year old evidently. I asked a few questions of Rod Meredith in his "Harmony of the Gospels" class and he told another student to "tell Dennis what I just said." Later in the day he called me over and I thought he might apologize for embarrassing me publically. I was 18 and not in the WCG yet. Just arrived. He asked me "Have you repented yet?" I just said nothing and walked away. Later I learned you didn't walk away from RCM.
Through the years I asked a lot of questions at Refreshers and WCG theological seminars falsely so called it turned out. I asked questions of Joe Tkach Sr. but he just got mad and hung up.
No one here either ever says "That's interesting. I have always wondered that myself," or "That interesting, I never thought of that." Here it is, "Once a ministurd, always a ministurd," "To me Dennis is a Benedict Arnold"< ""You'll think different when you face the Lake of Fire", "Pusher of Evilution", and of course a whole lot of comments about falling away and my friendship with Satan, Beelzebub and Lucifer.
It is very common here to have one's intent and motives defined and judged, as if one could know that of others with limited contact or conversation. Some feel they know me better than I know myself or think I should have learned what they have learned in life as if my own experiences and perspectives should be meaningless to me.
Let me say again, I am one of you. Former minister, member and "victim" though I use that term loosely because I have to admit that I choose it when young and there was a time when nothing you or anyone else could have said to dislodge me from WCG and "what the Bible said." I never personally like the Armstrongs or any number of ministers or administrators because I am an observer of personality as well, but people come and go and in my church experience before WCG who was who didn't matter. In WCG it mattered. I just did not get that in time.
I have always loved science, especially paleontology and cosmology. Two feet from me here are a nice collection of 4.5 billion year old iron and stone meteorites. They speak to me. I have 4 very nice 15 million year old Megaladon teeth right there and three detailed and incredible 450 million year old Trilobites right there. I've collected flint tools all my adult life and have 1.8 million year old ones from Oldavai Gorge in Kenya and hundreds of paleo and native Americans that are from the Ice Age up to a few undred years ago. Recently I pulled an incredible stone axe head out of the bottom of the Willamette before work running at about 4 to 5 thousand years old. That's what I do, that's what I have always done and that's who I am. I mistakenly thought I'd not have to give up that perspective to believe in the Bible.
Con't
con't
ReplyDeleteAt any rate, one reason I am here on Banned, aside from being invited to be, is that since we all have an abiding interest in theology and all things Bible, why would we not have an interest in the questions about it all one could never really share within the confines of our WCG experience? Would we not want to wonder about how this or that could be, happened or was possible? Is it so bad to find out it can't be, didn't happen and is not possible but to some the story or event had meaning they could express only in limited ways? Is it so satanic and disloyal to ask how could the earth stop or the be made to go backwards? Is it so strange to notice that the story told in the Constellations during the journey of the sun through them seems to tell the same story of the Bible, in the same order as well as the story of "pagan" religions before Christianity? Is it so threatening to faith that facts simply are avoided?
Humans evolved from previous ancestors over the past 2 million years. Whether we like that or not, that is a fact and only in fundamentalist and literalist thinking is this both untrue and terribly threatening. The Bible has textural problems. The Bible has contradictions. The origins of the Bible are not the ones we all got in Sunday School. Politics and human ego was just as much a factor in "Bible Times" as at any time in history. In my mind, if you can't show it, you don't actually know it.
When I ask us to think about such things as earth stop or rewind and rather than wonder about that, many simply rewrite or add to the story with their own additions not in the original. "Well, if God can reverse the rotation of the earth then no doubt he held everything in place so that all would not sling forward due East at 1000 mph". There! That answers it... Of course it doesn't. It apologizes for the incredibility of it all.
Critical thinking is not one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. It is not something taught by the church nor was ever encouraged or even defined by the ministry for the members. For me, those days are over. Critical thinking trumps speculations that just make me feel better as if I could know how or even why an axehead could float when there seemed to be so many other more pressing interventions that would have been appreciate to this day.
I speak plainly. In 26 years of ministry, I recall no one healed of a significant life threatening disease by my own prayer of faith or theirs as pastor. One either got better or not. The sick were not made well unless it was a cold, the flu, a broken bone or poison ivy.
Tithing deprived families of needed income to live and enjoy their own lives instead of enriching those of others. Windows of heaven did not open and I did not prove God now herewith by tithing my own average income back to the church. I resented G-2's, fancy suits and "God wants us to have quality things" just as much as the next guy. I felt HWA was mostly self serving and full of himself encouraged by those around him and Ted was brilliant when he was not. I also think Ted wanted to be somewhere else living his own life and was stuck in too late now to change my life mode.
and too...
ReplyDeleteIn my own ministry I tended to avoid my peers because in may things I simply could not relate to them or being around them was a bitching session that fueled my own doubts, depression and anxiety as to what I had gotten myself into over the years. I did love the people I pastored. They had real lives they shared with me and I with them and I helped them through a lot of life shit that comes to us all. I never told anyone to buck up because "God won't give you more than you can bare." I have seen lots of tragedy and pain that is unbearable.' Get used to? Yes. Have to blow off with a smile and "oh well, at least I'll see them again in the resurrection." No.
Any way. I guess I need to get back to On and On Anonymous meetings. :) I hiked in the Columbia Gorge yesterday and I can't move! lol. Walking on volcanic basalt, broken and everywhere proved to be a challenge for an aging former Ministrud! But it was spectacular!
Did you know that Mt Hood is 500,000 years old and Mt St Helen's 300,000? Have you heard of the Missoula Flood of 15,000 years ago coming down the Columbia at 1000 feet high and bringing Flurry's HWA Prayer Rock in an chunk of ice all the way from Canada to Eugene? Did you know..... :)
Dennis, it offends me when you call yourself a mini-stud.
ReplyDeleteHave a great Saturday!
Kevin
Spell check lol. Ministurd and that is not a label I personally prefer, Hmmmm...now that you mention it :)
ReplyDeleteThere are many things in the Bible that are curious and odd. Indeed, the questions that Dennis raises are valid, but I have long accepted that the Bible is not a comprehensive and exhaustive history book. It is a book about principles that one uses for himself in their own life story. To argue about ancient details falls under the admonitions of Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
ReplyDeleteI have not avoided the issues across the board in many areas of the Bible and Churches, and know them very well from all angles. So I am not claiming to just have "simple faith" and all will be fine. It is just that in the end, the only real control you have over anything is within yourself, and being the best you that you can be for God and man.
To add to the discours , here is one that has always puzzled me, ....
1Now King David was old and advanced in years, and though they covered him with blankets, he could not get warm. 2So his servants said to him, “Let us search for a young virgin for our lord the king, to attend to him and care for him and lie by his side to keep him warm."3Then they searched throughout Israel for a beautiful girl, and they found Abishag the Shunammite and brought her to the king.4The girl was unsurpassed in beauty, and she cared for the king and served him, but he had no relations with her.…
Sorry, but I just don't buy the narrative. You mean they couldn't be heating up hot water bottles , or wineskins, and the like, 24 hours a day , and heat the room up with fireplaces and boilers and the like, BUT , the only way David could GET HOT, was having some hot chick lay next to him naked!
Yeah, Im sure that "warmed him up" alright! LOL! BUT... he had no relations with her says the text. What the author was there the whole time and watched? I have my doubts on the whole passage in regards to the motivations of the entire cast of characters, David, his aides, and the woman too.
The 10 Commandments alone were written with the finger of God. Jesus himself wrote no books. The rest of the Bible is an account from fallible men who , even if sincere, write from an angle of personal biases , heuristic thinking , and prejudices. God allows for this it appears. However the core principles of Christianity are self evident truth to the true believer, and the power of the Holy Spirit is the guiding power on how to live this life. Scripture can only be broad based guide, not a technical manual.
Dennis- When it comes to ancient documents, like the Bible, it is hard to reconstruct history. We don't get to ask questions, nor do we get to see the backdrop. In the world today, we still have things like the pyramids in existence, one of the most amazing of things. YET--- we have no idea who built them, or specifically when, or even how. I find it amazing that these important details got lost to history. Yet their existence is a fact. Lack of full coherent , court case on every single scripture is not proof that God is not true, or does not exist.
A comment to Dennis: It appears to me that you think what you claim to know makes you a wiser person. The problem is that what you believe is true about the universe does nothing to improve the problems that human beings experience during their human existence. The joy you get out of the things you mentioned does nothing to improve family relationships; nor does it create a better community. It appears you think you have a right to be critical of others because they are not interested in questionable things related to speculations about a complex universe and environmental exhibits. What that adds to your life I have no way of knowing, but it does not make you a better person who will bring joy to other people young or old.
ReplyDeleteI may be wrong but it appears to me you really don't care what other people think; you will be what you want to be.. ASB
Dennis, no spell check needed my friend, lol, I knew you wrote ministurd 😁
ReplyDeleteI remember 25 years ago on the Likeminds forum I coined the term Mythster for a minister instead of Mr. because they were legends in their own mind.
Later my friend.
Kevin
ASB: "What that adds to your life I have no way of knowing, but it does not make you a better person who will bring joy to other people young or old.
ReplyDeleteI may be wrong but it appears to me you really don't care what other people think; you will be what you want to be.."
Gee thanks ASB. Neither you nor I can "care" about what other people think. I get the feeling when you get into a topic, you don't much care what others think either but I could be wrong. What adds to my life...correct...you don't seem to have a clue or way of knowing. Just trust me. My life is just fine and what adds to it I am sure does not interest you since I suspect you also don't care what I think and you will be what you want to be.
Tonto said: "To argue about ancient details falls under the admonitions of Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. "
ReplyDeleteI agree, that is just about all I heard in WCG as a minister and tried not to bother with them either. However, I don't find the scripture that says "But avoid foolish questions, and paleontology, cosmology, geology , astro-theology or questions about Creationism versus the observations of science and the evolution of all life, for they are unprofitable and vain."
If it did, I'd suspect that scripture may have been recently redacted into the text :)
BB noted and experienced: "Well, 5:22, fallacy is as fallacy does, if indeed your application of those terms to me without even knowing who I am and how I conduct my life is accurate."
ReplyDeleteAhhhh….a brother in the experience of contributing to Banned! :)
Amen, Brother Dennis! (@ 1:23) I'm afraid that to those who need nice, neat little boxes, all of us regulars are their strawmen.
ReplyDeleteBB
When I attended services, I had members (plural) physically threaten me, demanding I don't read books. I also experienced the 'cultured' version of this, with members (including ministers - plural) telling me that reading books will spiritually 'mislead me' or similar. These experiences are manifestations of a Cain versus Abel attitude. It was obvious in their body language and aura.
ReplyDeleteA person can be the town drunk, but if that person starts to grow and flourish, they will experience a envious, murderous reaction from many around them. Dennis claims to be above all this. He keeps reassuring his readers with a 'you don't know me.'
Sorry, I don't believe that Dennis is a exception. The combination of my experiences, and the frequency of his anti bible, anti God articles tells me otherwise.
723 says: "A person can be the town drunk, but if that person starts to grow and flourish, they will experience a envious, murderous reaction from many around them. Dennis claims to be above all this. He keeps reassuring his readers with a 'you don't know me.'
ReplyDeleteSorry, I don't believe that Dennis is a exception. The combination of my experiences, and the frequency of his anti bible, anti God articles tells me otherwise.'
I'm not sure what exactly you are saying but give me a call (864 905 9506) Sunday night and we can discuss it or you can ask me anything you wish. Home after 630 PST after work. I'll look forward to your call
I'm a believer and i welcome articles like this. They make you stop and think. I don't find them a threat to my faith. They make me ponder events i have previously glazed over.
ReplyDeleteThey are opportunities for freedom of thought,freedom of discussion. To blow the cobwebs out. Thinking outside of the box. I for one welcome it.
Armstrongisim can be so monotonous you can end up like Chaplin's character on the factory production line in Modern Times film.
Who were the saints resurrected?, was it some of the sick people who heard Christ in his ministry?people from the pool who never made it to the water in time? Or was it the saints Abraham, Issac and Jacob?
Matthew uses the word 'bodies'. Is he trying to tell us something? He wrote the 'Holy city' did he mean earthly Jerusalem or the Holy city as meaning the Third Heaven?
Has the true event understanding being lost in translation? Did King James translators get it wrong on this?
So many more questions. They make you think.
7:23 Dennis has been completely honest about what he now believes. If he chooses to post something about his beliefs or disbeliefs and Gary allows it why should it bother anyone?
ReplyDeleteDoes it threaten your beliefs that much?
Give him a call, Dennis is a nice guy.
If anti bible or anti God posts threaten you then why are you here? Just to get the latest acog gossip?
Kevin McMillen
Why give you a call Dennis. Am I supposed to ignore a life time of experiences and learning just because (ex) minister Dennis Diehl says so?
ReplyDeleteI experienced that many times while attending services. For instance, when I complained to a member for refusing to pay his restaurant bill, demanding instead that other church members pay for him, he replied by telling me to go discuss the matter with a minister. He knew the minister would try to intimidate me (or anyone else) for not living the 'give way,' ie, slavery to thieves.
Being there, done that, with the 'go discuss your problem with a minister.'
406, I was offering you a chance to call and talk as two people since you were questioning my perspectives about myself and my own experiences etc. I'm not a minister and haven't been one for 22 years. It was about two guys talking not one guy talking and one guy listening.
ReplyDeleteSorry about your experiences with ministers. They obviously have left their mark. I would have told the guy to pay for his own meals and at worst asked you why you didn't tell him that too. If I had been you and thought to mention it to a minister and got the "give way of life" answer, I'd have chuckled in his face and told him next time we are in the same restaurant I'm going to expect him to pay for my meal.
PS I learned to speak up for myself by not having done so in the past to my harm. I suppose that's how we actually learn unless one is naturally born with the skill or personality for it. I grew up in a "how can we help you" environment, which was fine but did have its downside at times. That is how I approached my personal way of being in the ministry with the congregation. That doesn't put me "above it all", it just was how I am. And you don't know me, or you'd take a chance to call and give it a go. But I understand. Thanks for the response.
ReplyDeleteKevin McMillen
ReplyDeleteDennis's neo military campaign against belief in God and the bible doesn't threaten me, but it is a threat to the spiritually sick and weak. Dennis knows this. Otherwise he wouldn't bother with his articles.
Kevin, is it possible in your world to not see deep sinister reasons for providing a more realistic and critically thinking view of science and theology to those so inclined? Wasn't it non-critical thinking in our past that got us here sharing WCG experiences in the first place?
ReplyDeleteDo you see Bogeymen everywhere?
Some trees need barking up.
ReplyDelete4:06
ReplyDeleteIf you are a lady that bill experience is horrific and atrocious.
Otherwise I hope you have carved out a life by now since being so freakin stramge on the bill thing. Man I'm biting my tongue since I m not a gentleman like Dennis.
I saw a Manson documentary where the beatiful hippie girls completely lost their ego through lsd and their bad childhoods. I'm reminded of that documentary wgen I hear of such behavior toward self.
Nck
In my experience Anon 7:02 the ones who prove themselves spiritually sick and weak are the ministry.
ReplyDeleteAssuming all sorts of wrongs about others based on thin air is also a unique gift of power players within the ministry.
If you are connected to the true vine you have no fear of discussion. Dennis does not have a gun to your head demanding you deny Jesus Christ.
Freedom can be seen as very dangerous to control freaks and great dictators. That's why Freedom of discussion is vital.
Dennis, I'm confused, who was your 8:39am post written to? If me, why, what did I say? I'm assuming you were writing to anonymous 7:02 am who started their post with my name.
ReplyDeleteFor some reason you threaten him though he denies it. I rather enjoy your posts, thinking is fun. No bogeyman.
Kevin McMillen
Dennis
ReplyDeleteBad wording on my part. The person refused to pay his restaurant bill and demanded that the other church members pay for it instead. I witnessed this a few times. Typically it was a woman who silently sat there, expecting others to pay her bill.
8.58 AM
The snake did not have gun at Adam and Eves head, but look what happened? The culprit wasn't freedom.
Oh..my mistake on who said what. 😇
ReplyDeleteNo problem. Keep the posts coming.
ReplyDelete