Gerald Weston has written a missive about how the Living Church of God members are to view others in various splinter personality cults of Armstrongism. LCG members wonder why the LCG does not speak out about abusive splinter cults that damage members lives, like Gerald Flurry, Bob Thiel and Dave Pack, but also wonder why, if everyone is doing a "work," then why can't they be called brothers?
Following the mid-1990s breakup of the Worldwide Church of God, hundreds of Sabbath-keeping groups formed. A handful are significant in terms of numbers and the work they do, but most of these “hundreds” are family or local groups, virtually unknown outside their areas. Groups formed around ordained and un-ordained leaders, usually involving some doctrinal difference. Some have declared themselves prophets or apostles and have convinced people to follow them. The Internet has made it possible for a few of these groups to attract scattered individuals to their doctrines.
Many are confused by this scattering of former members, and wonder what we should think about these many groups. On this subject, there are generally two camps. One looks to Ephesians 4:4, which tells us, “There is one body and one Spirit…,” and says that people in multiple organizations can’t be a part of one spiritual body. The other looks to passages showing that the first-century Church of God was not always as unified as it ought to have been—but was still the Church of God. “Now I say this, that each of you says, ‘I am of Paul,’ or ‘I am of Apollos,’ or ‘I am of Cephas,’ or ‘I am of Christ.’ Is Christ divided?” (1 Corinthians 1:12–13). Which view is right? Is either view correct? Perhaps each is partially, but not wholly, correct.Apparently it is not a concern for LCG to speak out about the lairs and various false prophets now populating the Armstrong Churches of God. It is not LCG's concern that members commit suicide because of aberrant doctrines of other ACOG leaders or that families are ripped apart or financially ruined. Weston says that God will correct it in the end, so why worry today.
When we see others doing a work similar to what we are doing, we need not be concerned. We must know why we, as individuals, choose to be where we are, but it is unwise for us to compare ourselves with others. God is the judge. All of us, leaders and members, must one day answer to Him for the decisions we make in this life.At least Weston calls Bob Thiel a fool and a hypocrite! Envy has always been the prime motivator in Bwana Bob's deluded self-appointment.
Some today no doubt “preach Christ even from envy and strife” and from “selfish ambition.” Others do so sincerely “from goodwill.” Yes, we need to base our decisions on biblical facts, comparing such things as doctrines, governance, and focus. That we must do. We cannot compromise truth for the sake of a false unity. But neither should we be in the business of judging the motives of others. It is true that the motives of some are so transparent that only a fool would be so blind as not to notice, and Jesus, after all, did call some of the religious leaders hypocrites (Matthew 23). However, our responsibility is to leave alone those who are not with us and to focus on the Work He set before us. As Paul advised the disunited Corinthians, “Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God” (1 Corinthians 4:5).He ends his missive with this:
We are coming up on the Passover and Days of Unleavened Bread. This is a time for introspection. The breakup of the Worldwide Church of God was something few, if any, of us foresaw, and it created a lot of distrust and confusion. We will someday look back and understand a greater picture than we currently can see, but here is one thing we should all be able to agree upon: There has been far too much judging of others and other groups, in all the groups. That is not the mind of Christ!Since when has the Armstrongite Churches of God ever put on the "mind of Christ?" They cannot even talk about the dude and anything he accomplished but rather prostrate themselves at the feet of the law and church government which has become their god. They should be reveling in Galatians, Roman and Ephesians this item of year instead of looking at Exodus. The mind of Christ has been unattainable for them all for 80 some years now.
See complete article here: How Do We View Others?
Weston has abandoned the Rod Meredith practice of preaching vile hatred for all the other COG groups. This is good. Interesting that when RCM started Global, he stated that there would be no preaching against any other group. He was inferring WCG at the time, but apparently forgot that principle later. In 1995, RCM anticipated the mass exodus from WCG would soon occur, so he borrowed a lot of money to get a large TV presence, hoping to convince the masses leaving WCG that GCG was the "true" continuation of WCG. Not only was he bitterly disappointed when the majority went to UCG, the large debt incurred was the major factor in the end of GCG in late 1998. RCM made it clear that he felt he was the only legitimate evangelist remaining and everyone should follow him. But no one would listen. He never recovered from this disappointment, and while he eased up a bit on the harsh criticism of other groups after his wife died, he never did repent of having preached hatred. The fact that Weston has chosen not to preach that hatred is to his credit, and is a reason to hope for the good future of LCG. Further, to the extent that God cares what LCG teaches, they may actually be looked upon favorably by God now.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jerry to the point that they should not worry about the evils in the other ACOGs. LCG members who participate here have made it abundantly clear that evils exist in their own LCG that the members are patiently waiting for God to clean up. I was never a US Marine, but the marines do have a saying that “pride starts at home”. It means you start by maintaining high standards in the way you conduct your own self.
ReplyDeleteIs Jerry blinded to the fact that evils exist in his own splinter group? I certainly know I’ve seen Rod McNair’s name mentioned in connection with these evils a nauseating number of times. And we’ve seen other names as well.
Maybe what Jerry is actually advising is that a man in a glass house loses credibility if he decides to throw stones!
BB
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ReplyDeleteHuman government is a false god in both the secular and Christian world. Star Treks Borg Collective is not pulled out of thin air.
ReplyDeleteMy phone did something weird when I try to post a comment now, and I don't know if it transmitted.
ReplyDeleteWeston is not a policeman and he doesn't run a law Court. I think his article is balanced.
Weston might be exhibiting some wisdom in this.
ReplyDelete1) Keeping track of 100s of groups and their wackiness would be a full time job.
2) Who wants to be associated with or connected to most of the madness.
There reaches a point in time that "the divorce is final". For instance, no one in the COGs is monitoring much of what is happening in the COG 7th Day, or the SDAs , or the Seventh Day Baptists for instance, who (arguably so) , we were once part of as well.
Time marches on , and there usually is enough BS going on in your own neck of the woods to keep you busy and occupied.
Gordon, there's a sinister undercurrent to Weston's "balanced" perspective.
ReplyDeleteJust like RCM trained his members to do, Weston is dismissing all the other ACOGs as valid alternative options for LCG members. Yes, it is true that nobody in LCG benefits from trying to evaluate the specific DSM-IV diagnoses for Dave Pack and Gerald Flurry, and it is far healthier to just be the best you can be instead of comparing yourself against monsters and creeps.
However, what Weston is really telling his people is that they have no alternative. Either they stay in LCG, or they go back to Satan's world. He wants them to accept LCG with its many problems, rather than to consider that COGWA may be a better place for some people, and UCG for others, and the "living room COG" for still others.
I feel it is an indictment of the COG splinters that none of them will work with others - with very few exceptions. Members must be asking about this since he is addressing it.
ReplyDeleteWeston wrote: "...We must know why we, as individuals, choose to be where we are, but it is unwise for us to compare ourselves with others. God is the judge..."
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that Jerry believes individuals "choose to be where we are," but is that true if the living group is really God's Church.
Isn't God's Church composed of those who didn't have a choice to be a sealed Firstfruit there?
Did something happen to John 6:44? Did it get forgotten?
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
That sounds like a choice of God the Father, not SELF.
Then again, this post stated: "...Since when has the Armstrongite Churches of God ever put on the "mind of Christ?" They cannot even talk about the dude and anything he accomplished but rather prostrate themselves at the feet of the law and church government which has become their god. They should be reveling in Galatians, Roman and Ephesians this item of year instead of looking at Exodus. The mind of Christ has been unattainable for them all for 80 some years now..."
From all appearances, the Living group has nothing to do with God's Church, especially with all of that free moral agency, free will, thinking by individuals. No wonder they can't "talk about the dude!"
And besides, what mind did Christ have? He gave us His Father's words, so it appears that the mind of Christ would be the mind of the Father, and "let this mind be in you" is a reference to God the Father, and not to Christ Himself. Of course, Christ, who of Himself said He could do nothing, was always pointing people to God His Father....and not to HimSELF!
Back to Weston, who wrote: "...God is the judge..."
Judge of what? Of who?
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:" John 5:22
And when Jesus walked this earth He said:
"Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man." John 8:15
:16 "And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me."
Okay, God is the judge, but judge what? Weston almost sounds like he is into some sort of Fear Religion," but
Time will tell...
I agree that: "We will someday look back and understand a greater picture than we currently can see, but ......There has been far too much judging of others and other groups, in all the groups."
Yes, who pays attention to the "Dude," who said: "This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." John 15:12
If one were to really keep that commandment, there is no room for judging, but who can do it?
Time will tell...
John
TLA said...
ReplyDeleteI feel it is an indictment of the COG splinters that none of them will work with others - with very few exceptions. Members must be asking about this since he is addressing it.
April 11, 2019 at 9:58 AM
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TLA that is something similar to what I pointed out back in 1995 or 96 on the Likeminds forum, almost four years after I had quit the WCG. The bigger named groups had been formed by then and we, the then called "Living room church of God" were gaining traction.
I pointed out that Paul had gotten onto the Corinthians for saying " I'm of Paul, I'm of Cephas, well I'm of Christ" and he pointed out that they were still carnal.
I said that we, independents, if we're not willing to go fellowship occasionally with the larger groups, if welcome, then that would be like saying "I'm of GCG, I'm of PCG, I'm of UCG, well I'm independent" and we should rather say "we are of Christ".
Today of course I'd add Baptists, Methodists, etc. to the list that belong to Christ, who am I to judge who is Christ's, I'm perfectly happy letting him decide.
Now before a legalist acog member says "well you know them by their fruits" he/she clearly meaning "obeying the law", I must ask, do you obey the law perfectly? Can I judge you by your fruits when you fail in obedience? We need to worry about our own fruits not anyone elses.
Kevin McMillen
Kevinmcmillen64@gmail.com
"'Now I say this, that each of you says, 'I am of Paul,' or 'I am of Apollos,' or 'I am of Cephas,' or 'I am of Christ.' Is Christ divided?' (1 Corinthians 1:12–13)."
ReplyDeleteMore recently people said, "I am of the Pope," or "I am of Jerry Falwell," or "I am of Billy Graham," or "I am of Rick Warren," but we who said "I am of Herbert Armstrong" criticized everyone else who said they were of another man. Because Christ is not divided? No, because the only way they could be of Christ is first to be of Herbert!
Now we say, "I am of Rod Meredith," or "I am of Jim Franks," or "I am of Don Ward," or "I am of Bob Thiel." But those who say "I am of Rod Meredith" are now criticizing everyone else who said they were of another man. Because Herbert Armstrong is not divided? No, because the only way they could now be of Herbert is first to be of Rod Meredith!
"We will someday look back and understand a greater picture than we currently can see, but here is one thing we should all be able to agree upon: There has been far too much judging of others and other groups, in all the groups. That is not the mind of Christ!"
No, there is no day in which the "greater picture" will be clearer than it already is. You already have more than enough information to figure out what's going on. You don't need to wait for some day down the road that will never come before you're allowed to start asking the tough questions.
Make no mistake, Christ is divided. He was divided in the first century AD, nearly 2,000 years later he's a lot more divided, and with each generation he continues to get even more divided. People should really be asking themselves why, no matter where you look, even in your own back yard, religion doesn't look right. Stop making excuses, stop papering over the cracks, and start asking why those cracks are there.
This whole "Don't worry about it, God will fix it later," is an encouragement to the members to keep making excuses, and to never ask the tough questions about why nothing looks the way it should. It's a corollary of the old trope that members should turn a blind eye to the abuses of the ministry, that only God gets to judge ministers, and "He'll fix it later." It's also a warning and a threat to other groups: "Don't throw stones at my glass house, and I won't throw stones at yours."
Weston is shooting himself in the foot with his comments.
ReplyDeleteThe only reason LCG members check out what other groups are teaching is that they doubt LCG's teaching. LCG has changed just enough of HWA's teachings as to raise concern in old-timers, but hasn't changed enough for younger members who are conversant with the genetic/biological arguments against HWA's British-Israelism.
Members who do look outside the LCG fence also notice that a few senior LCG ministers steal ideas from other groups. When even LCG's Council of Elders members steal material from other ACOGs, it's hard for Weston to credibly sell the idea that it's not helpful to look beyond the confines of LCG.
Weston is basically telling his members to become willfully ignorant. That ain't gonna happen in today's ACOGs.
"The only reason LCG members check out what other groups are teaching is that they doubt LCG's teaching. LCG has changed just enough of HWA's teachings as to raise concern in old-timers, but hasn't changed enough for younger members who are conversant with the genetic/biological arguments against HWA's British-Israelism."
ReplyDeleteYou don't have to be young to realize modern genetics has debunked BI. The problem with leaving LCG and going elsewhere, is the other groups have no real attraction either, which is why I am no longer in a COG.
I wish Dr. Sherrod had published his research - because neither WCG or UCG published it, I wonder what he really found out - I am guessing it was not good for either group.
TLA said . . . “I wish Dr. Sherrod had published his research - because neither WCG or UCG published it, I wonder what he really found out - I am guessing it was not good for either group.”
ReplyDeleteI thought the UCG did publish his work? Wasn’t his research collected and later published in the form of their book, “The United States and Britain in Bible Prophecy”?
Wouldn’t it be funny if we found out that members of these ACOGs were checking up on other ACOGs to see if any were issuing a call to flee? Nothing like being insecure about your own choice in groups having the proper information on that critical topic!
ReplyDeleteSooner or later one of these groups will become crazy enough to have their own version of Jonestown!
BB
ReplyDeleteGerald Weston said: We cannot compromise truth for the sake of a false unity. But neither should we be in the business of judging the motives of others. It is true that the motives of some are so transparent that only a fool would be so blind as not to notice, and Jesus, after all, did call some of the religious leaders hypocrites (Matthew 23). However, our responsibility is to leave alone those who are not with us and to focus on the Work He set before us. As Paul advised the disunited Corinthians, “Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God” (1 Corinthians 4:5).
Would Mr. Weston be the Levite or the priest in the story of the Good Samaritan with his "however, our responsibility is to LEAVE ALONE those who are NOT WITH US to focus on the work he set before us".
The second of the two great commandments is to love your neighbor as your self. Jesus Christ said to love one another as he loved and laid his life down for us. Jesus Christ said there is no greater love than to lay your life down for your friend. Jesus Christ said to leave the 99 and go save the one. Jesus Christ inspired Jude 1:23 "and others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire ....".
Would a spiritual mind disregard others that are in peril from those with "wrong motives" or are being led by "hypocrites"? Mr. Weston identifies a major problem in other COGs and knows of the plight of many brethren and says leave them alone and don't judge them.
Mr. Weston quotes the scripture; "judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes..." forgetting he and his fellows past and present have judged how many people to the extent that they were thrown out of the church? A spiritual mind should know the difference between making a judgement based upon the word of God and making a judgement of condemnation.
So when Mr. Weston just walks on by the beaten and stripped and left on the side of the spiritual road brother, we no - good - for - nothing Samaritans know it is up to us to save the injured party because Mr. Weston has a far greater work that he is doing. And what was that work again?
Kevin asks "can I judge you by your fruits if you fail in obedience." "Do you obey the law perfectly?" So let's not judge people or groups by their fruits cause Kevin says so. And he says so cause no one is perfect. So according to Kevin, there is no difference between a responsible person and a scoundrel. Cain did not differ from Abel, cause Abel was not perfect. So forget Christs instruction of "you shall know them by their fruits" cause Kevin says so. And forget about justice, such as "give honor/dishonor to whom it is due" since Kevin says so.
ReplyDeleteKevin should give us his translation of the bible. Call it "The Kevin - I say so" bible.
"Don't judge before the time", "Base your decisions upon biblical facts", Weston says? Then why did he disfellowship me by email without telling me what my sin was? (Forced to do my own conjecturing, it was probably due to my disagreement with a new prophetic interpretation) The divisions in the church are primarily due to ministerial disputes (since they are the earthly mediators) but the ministers don't want to condemn their old colleagues too harshly. They save that for the supposedly recalcitrant members. As one minister said to me, "I'm a minister (so I have the authority to judge, whereas you don't)". Another minister said to me, "How could so many ministers be wrong? (as if to say that they always are right -- and it's the members who are sin-habituated). They all say that God is the Judge while they do nothing to remedy the present distress, not fearing that they are leaving it in the hands of Jesus Christ to judge them severely for their incompetence.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 3:21pm, seeing that you are most likely a member of the hireling clergy class of LCG I must ask, are you and your ilk among the so called "spiritual" levites the ones whom you propose to be the judge?
ReplyDeleteI guess "their fruits" to you would be whether they're members of the so called Philidelphia "era" otherwise known by you, the LCG. Now that is just hilarious. Gerald Weston will be leading the charge to Petra, followed by Ames and the McNair bunch. LOL
Too bad you don't comprehend that if eras are correct that we've been in the Laodicean era for over 120 years, USA rich, increased with goods and have need of nothing. If that doesn't describe the WCG church I don't know what does.
Not to mention the best place to keep the true Philidelphian era(if there ever was one) from the hour of trial is safely in their grave awaiting the resurrection.
I guess we should just follow the LCG translation, we'll call it LCG says so. NOT!!!!!!!!
Kevin McMillen
Kevinmcmillen64@gmail.com
I challenge any so called "minister" of any of the acog groups to prove biblically that there is a church "clergy class" in the bible or that the bible teaches a one man pastorate. Paul said to "ordain" elders (plural) all to be equal overseers, in the church. That means one congregation with multiple elders, not a so called preaching elder over an elder over a local elder. Elder is not a title, it merely means an older man, the position was overseer and there was to be more than one in each church.
ReplyDeleteThe system that HWA created wasn't biblical, so using "correct church government" as the pivotal "fruit" to judge by is of men and not biblical!
Any of you who think the organization that you belong to is following God better than any of the others have fallen into the trap that Paul warned the Corinthians about and whether you like it or not, as Paul so clearly stated, ye are yet carnal!
You can argue about whether we should judge by the fruits all that you want, all you do is set different definitions for what fruit you are judging. The main fruit that LCG judges is the supposed "government" of God. According to them UCG or COGWA don't have the correct form of government. That's the main "fruit" that they are judging. They forget that HWA in the 30's was completely against that form of government.
It wasn't until later, when he thought he would lose control that he accepted the Roman Catholic form of hierarchical government. Now all hirelings push that error, trying to firm up their unbiblical positions, claiming that other forms of government are bad fruit.
That's why I said their legalistic argument is, "well you'll know them by their fruit" because they can manipulate the definition of just what is good fruit, and claim they have Christ on their side since he's the one who said it, thus controlling weak minded christians.
I'm not the one negating Christ's admonition that we'll know them by their fruit, I'm merely pointing out that wolves, (the subject of Christ's comment about judging by fruit) will cunningly manipulate weak Christians using Christ's own words. Like, "We're the only ones using the correct governmental system, this means our fruit is good". Sorry but the "dumb" sheep that you've relied upon for years are wising up.
Remember when Christ spoke those words he was identifying how to recognize false prophets, wolves in the church and these false ministers claiming that one group is following God better than another are just that, wolves.
Wake up,
Kevin McMillen
Kevinmcmillen64@gmail.com
Gal. 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control."
ReplyDeleteIf individually or organizationally you do not see these fruits then you must questions whether the Spirit is in you or the organization. Evaluating fruits by this measure is Biblical. It says we shall know them by their fruits-- presumably the Spirit if in us can discern whether it exists in another person or organization. You might be wrong though.
Organizations and people that produce turmoil and splits are obviously questionable in this regard. After the UCG/Cogwa split both organizations' leaders have stated how much more peaceful life is after the split. That is embarrassing really. It may well be an indictment on whether they have the necessary fruits to work through disagreements or to discern that the disagreements are not important enough to argue over. Most of the members of the two groups had their lives disrupted and injured due to the split, but I'm not sure how much that was considered among the organizational ministers once the disagreement became sharp.
A lot more could be said, but surely we need to simply recognize that we are not called to division and turmoil. In at least this we need to "wake up" to the fact that the COGs have produced this in our lives.
"Organizations and people that produce turmoil and splits are obviously questionable in this regard."
ReplyDeleteNow that's a pretty accurate and succinct description of the last 70 odd years of Armstrongism!
Kevin McMillen
Kevinmcmillen64@gmail.com
Armstrongism is not just susceptible to challenges to its poor doctrine; its fruits are so bad that that should be enough to dismiss them.
ReplyDeleteWe look for a congregation and body of believers to elevate us in our walk with the Lord through this life. But, if the congregation or organization acts as a source of despair and frustration then that simply is not the place to be. The Lord's yoke is easy and gives us rest. Do the COGs understand this?