I never thought the day would come when I'd get a chuckle out of what over decades I have come to call "The Passover Mess." But now I can.
First of all, and as briefly as possible, let me state what 45 years of "The Passover Mess" have taught me.
1. The Exodus as reported in the Bible is not an historical event. It never happened as advertised. Therefore it matters not much how we use the story to answer questions about the Passover Mess.
2. Adam/Eve/Abraham and Moses (I'll stop there but further down the line is also suspect, never existed in history. Upsetting I know, but that's my view now and the common view among critical scholar and biblical archaeologists.
3. The New Testament accounts of the events surrounding the death and resurrection of Jesus as told in the Gospels are contradictory and irreconcilable. They are not accounts written by eyewitnesses to anything and were not written by the Disciples/Apostles whose names were later added to them when anonymous Gospels in the first place. They were written decades after the events they profess to report. They are not "like four different people telling the story of an accident." Like the Birth Narratives, they are different stories and cannot be harmonized. We meld Matthew's and Luke's Birth stories together into a nice Christmas scene, but in real life, they are just two different stories and each author could not have read the others.
4. The Jewish Rabbi's pretty much know their own scriptures and do not consult and never did consult the WCG as to how to keep Passover or Unleavened Bread nor when they occurred.
I recall in a Bible Study where I was dutifully reminding or asking the congregation not to break into the classic "splits and schisms" of religious division and misspoke. I actually asked them not to engage in "shits and splisms." There was utter silence and they just looked at me as I looked back. Finally I asked, "Did I just say what I thought I said?" Everyone cracked up and I noted that there were , in fact, some shits in the Church so it was God that inspired the mistaken wordage. Just kidding. I only thought it.
Another time, I got into a controversy over whether a member, with a grocery store, must deleaven the store and basically shut it down for a week? My only ministerial trainee ever, they didn't send them to me after this, told the member he had to clean up and close down. This man is a pastor now in some split. He also told the congregation during his first sermon that they could either be anointed by him or go to the hospital, but not both. I corrected that too but that's part of the "Healing Mess."
Anyway...The member came to me and I said not a problem. Just de-leaven at home because it's an object lesson and not meant to put you into bankruptcy or on food stamps and don't worry about the store. Ooops! Mini-Ass called Joe Tkach Sr for a final judgement. Joe said he had to de-leaven it and close it. Crap! I told the member again it was fine to keep it open, de-leaven at home because it's just an object lesson. He did that and nothing more came of it. Maybe that's why I never was ordained a "Pastor Rank Minister" ever! I did pastor 14 congregation over 26 years in 5 states, alone, but only as a "Preaching Elder" Darn! Could have used the pay increase!,
All kidding aside. You are NEVER going to get the story of Jesus death and resurrection, nor the Passover events right. The accounts are muddled and whatever the darkness that covered the earth for three hours was, it was not an eclipse and no one seems to know what it was. Speculate all you want, but you can never know. It can be a miracle, a metaphor from the OT scriptures or a scribal error if yo like, but you'll never know.
If you are really looking for fun, sit down and try to harmonize the Gospel accounts of Jesus Resurrection. Good luck!
I don't miss the Passover Mess. It follows the Churches of God around like a puppy looking for a home. If you insist on feeding it, it will follow you home, enjoy your company but pee and poop all over your carpets and demand far more time than it is worth as the Churches struggle to figure out just exactly "the simplicity that is in Christ" is or just what exactly does "my yoke is easy and my burden light" means for yet another year.
Dennis heard and experienced many other Passover Messes as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
Thanks for the laughs. Neither one of us ever really fit in that spurious cult. In the end, it was inevitable that we would get out and stay out.
ReplyDeleteDennis - you should have consulted the Jews!
ReplyDeleteYour member should have had a sale / buyback agreement with a non-believer. This is what observing Jews do who own bagel stores.
Alas, you never answered the most important question - are popovers sin because they are puffed up (without using leaven).
And looking for leaven in dog food - did that ever come up? Plus yeast in beer?
So many areas to split hairs over - if only I had my own prayer rock to consult.
Why consult the Jews. They just took a spring celebration common to all people in the northern hemisphere, drafted all kinds of rules about it and backed it up with a fictional story. It's kind of nonsensical to people south of the equator where spring becomes autumn. All the rigmarole associated with it was intended to keep the people in wide-eyed wonder and give them a special time to celebrate the coming of spring (again, in the northern hemisphere.) I long ago quit caring about any of it.
ReplyDeleteway to go Dennis! written like a true un-believer!
ReplyDeleteYeah, yeah, yeah, the gospel accounts are irreconcilable, at least according to Ehrman and his ilk.
ReplyDeleteHe sees an irreconcilable problem with whether Jesus was in Bethlehem vs. Nazareth when the wise me got to the house.
How terrible, Herod asked the chief priests about where Jesus was to be born, they told him Bethlehem, So when the wise men got to Herod, Herod told the to go to Bethlehem.
So Ehrman assumes that the wise men go to Bethlehem, but the bible doesn't say that.
What the bible saysis that upon leaving Herod the wise men saw the star again and followed it until it stopped at the house where Jesus was.
Obviously the star led them to Nazareth, but for some reason Ehrman refuses to grasp that. Yep, irreconcilable!
Another of Ehrman's irreconcilable gospel problems is that when Jesus was resurrected they were all in Jerusalem and Jesus told them to tarry there until they were given power from on high, but then they went to Galilee, but somehow were back in Jerusalem at Pentecost. Oh my oh my how can that be????
The
If Jesus told you to tarry in Jerusalem, then said he was going to Galilee and to meet him there, what would you do?
Would Jesus or wouldn't he have known that there was plenty of time for them to get to Galilee and back before Pentecost?
Ehrman finds problems when none exist. Those who disbelieve the bible mock anyone with a reasonable explanation too.
Ehrman keeps spouting the 120 miles from Jerusalem to Galilee:
https://ehrmanblog.org/fuller-account-of-resurrection-discrepancies/
The thing is that from Jerusalem to the southernmost point of lower Galilee is less than 50 miles as the crow flies.
Bible disbelievers make statements as if they are proven fact. Like, Abraham never existed. David never existed. The gospels aren't eyewitness accounts. The gospels are forgeries. The Jews just adopted festivals that were already in existence. etc. etc.
They make these unproven statements over and over again until eventually they believe them as fact when they are no more factual than what bible believers believe. They rely on faith just as much as we do.
It's sad!
Kevin McMillen
TLA, the biggest problem in the WCG culture when it came to leaven is that "the ministry" never allowed anyone to think for themselves about whether something was leavened or not. That is where the complexity came in to play. Never once was the simple "let the Holy Spirit" guide each person allowed.
ReplyDeleteBaking soda will remain in my refrigerator during the days. If anyone doesn't like that, too bad!
Kevin McMillen
By the way, in two weeks I'll be "taking" the bread and wine. I think this year I'll just put them both in my pocket and just leave them there. A little messy and it will stain my shirt, but that's how we "take" the emblems here where I'm from. That's how we roll (matzo balls that is, gotta celebrate the wave sheaf some way).
ReplyDeleteKevin McMillen
Another by the way, concerning the seven Noahide laws, those were merely Jewish tradition. Since Jews are special, and only God's chosen people can keep the Sabbath and Feasts, they had to figure out what gentiles in their midst had to obey. Can't have them keeping our days because we are special. But, if they insist we can at least cut the tip off the men's "tool".
ReplyDeleteJust makes me wonder though, since Zech. 14 says that Gentiles will keep the Feast of Tabernacles after Jesus' return, and Is. says all nations will keep the Sabbath, what happened to those Noahide laws? Did God forget that only his special people were to keep those days? Oh my.
After all, isn't the sabbath and feasts only a sign of the jews? Oh wait, did I misread that? My Sabbaths are a sign that you might know that I am YHVH who does sanctify, set apart you..
Does that mean the sabbaths (plural) are a sign, not of who God's people are, but of which God they are worshipping, of exactly which God has set them apart?
Could it be that if you're not keeping his sabbaths then you're worshipping a different God? Who knows, just sayin'!
The sign of the covenant is circumcision, but the sign of exactly which God is being worshipped is the sabbaths. I didn't say this, it's clear in the bible in Ez. 20
If you don't believe the bible I realize all that is moot.
Kevin McMillen
If you only did what God commanded Passover is very simple. Its when men add their own interpretations is there a mess.
ReplyDeleteWhat to do??? My wife once had a "Yeast Infection" during the Days of Unleavened Bread. I guess we won't be in Petra in the future!
ReplyDeleteWhat mess?
ReplyDeleteI would have to agree with you to a point. The proper days, date and times as interpreted by the COGs seem to be the summation of an equation of adding uncertainty to a new/old mix to the Jews have it wrong equals the gospel truth.
Concerning to me all through the years has been the vast energy and time and thematic overload towards all things physical. Why is such a inordinate amount of time spent to orientate the thinking of members that through the perfect extraction of every last bread crumb in their dwellings, they can save their physical/spiritual lives? Why is there such a dramatic reenactment of the Crucifixion by the ministry leading up to the Passover when discerning the body of Christ according to Paul was about discerning ones conduct in relation to each other in the church sphere?
All of the strained obedience to the supposed proper day, night, food, sitting, standing, bread crumb, vacuum cleaner, sadness, clothes, study etc. misses the grand over all point of what the Passover is all about. According to Mr. Diehl, a name plagiarizer who was a non eye witness to a person that never existed wrote these words: "unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you". Just the type of saying someone trying to marry Old Testament prophecy into a non existent person would pull out of thin air to try and deceive the many that the Messiah had/will come.
The COGs teach and practice that the Passover is the most moribund event you will ever participate in. Jesus said unto his disciples; "with desire have I desired to eat this Passover with you". The consumption of the flesh (cracker) and blood (wine) give the participant life through the act of oneness by intercourse between God and man/woman. The participation in the Passover is the complete opposite of a funeral reenactment. It is a desired life giving event pegged to the ancient but ever living tree of life.
Mr. diehl correctly states where the problem lies in what has become a mess. Trying to get all the events right or thinking they have correctly harmonized the gospels has turned the whole season into a convoluted ritualistic physical act with no true meaning.
All those in the COG need to make a banner and hang it upon their door post so while they are super vacuuming every crack and crevice they might pause and look up and think ..... UNLESS YOU EAT MY FLESH AND DRINK MY BLOOD YOU HAVE NO LIFE IN YOU - The solution to the problem of the "mess of Passover".
After all, isn't the sabbath and feasts only a sign of the jews? Oh wait, did I misread that? My Sabbaths are a sign that you might know that I am YHVH who does sanctify, set apart you..
ReplyDeleteKevin, you are forgetting that YHVH was originally a peer of Chemosh and other tribal gods under the seniormost god El. Different gods set apart their tribes in different ways.
So says you, The Passover Miracle not mess.
ReplyDeleteThat's what the COG's are, a series of "messes," as belief is dependent upon straining gnats while swallowing camels. On the one hand you should scrutinize every jot and tittle, while on the other you shouldn't scrutinize the big picture to make sure it's either internally consistent or comports with reality.
ReplyDeleteIt's said that you are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. However, every different stripe of christianity is predicated upon their own unique set of "alternative facts" which are not to be questioned or scrutinized.
I'm sure that christians have no problem with forensics in criminal investigations. They believe that fingerprints, blood spatter, DNA, and all other forms of crime scene evidence should be allowed to speak for itself and have it's own voice. In this domain, it's fine for reality to comport with observed evidence.
But when it comes to the same sort of real-world, factual evidence, they don't believe that archaeology, biology, or any other form of examination of the real world should have it's own voice. No, it should be dictated to. It should be told what to say. In the world of law enforcement, this is rightly called "corruption" and it is a vice, but in religion, this same sort of corruption is called "faith" and is called a virtue. Christians decide in advance what reality must be, and then they throw out observed evidence while clinging to the "alternative facts" and conspiracy theories their itching ears are longing to hear.
The stories in the bible might be true, I suppose. But the testimony of this planet is that none of them happened on this one. Perhaps there's another planet out there on which they could have happened. However, the lack of internal consistency is a knottier problem, and requires a completely different universe with completely different physics.
Or someone could have made it up, but seriously, how improbable is that???
I'm personally having a ham sandwich and a cold beer on passover and then smoking a fine cigar. Anyone care to join me?
ReplyDeleteIn regard to “sabbaths”
ReplyDeleteEx 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Ex 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Ex 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath [sabbath] of rest [shabbaton], holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Ex 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed
“My Sabbaths:” by these we are to understand the weekly Sabbaths, not the other sabbatical festivals, since the words which follow apply to the weekly Sabbath alone. This was “a sign between Jehovah and Israel for all generations, to know (i.e., by which Israel might learn) that it was Jehovah who sanctified them,” viz., by the sabbatical rest (see at Exo 20:11). It was therefore a holy thing for Israel (Exo 31:14), the desecration of which would be followed by the punishment of death, as a breach of the covenant. The kernel of the Sabbath commandment is repeated in Exo 31:15; the seventh day of the week, however, is not simply designated a “Sabbath,” but sabbath sabbaton [English transliteration substituted for the Hebrew] “a high Sabbath” (the repetition of the same word, or of an abstract form of the concrete noun, denoting the superlative; see Ges. §113, 2), and “holy to Jehovah” (see at Exo 16:23). For this reason Israel was to keep it in all future generations, i.e., to observe it as an eternal covenant (Exo 31:16), as in the case of circumcision, since it was to be a sign for ever between Jehovah and the children of Israel (Eze 20:20). The eternal duration of this sign was involved in the signification of the sabbatical rest, which is pointed out in Exo 20:11, and reaches forward into eternity” (C.F. Keil, Exodus, KD).
The convention of using the plural and singular interchangeably is also observed in the NT (cp. Matt 12:1 & 2).
John Wheeler (LCG), in “THE BIBLICAL BASIS OF THE SACRED CALENDAR,” p.22:
“Thus, while all Holy Days are "sabbaths" (compare John 19:31), not every Holy Day is called shabbaton, let alone shabbat shabbaton. Atonement has the greatest restriction on "work"; then, the weekly Sabbath; then, the fall Holy Days; then, the spring Holy Days. Note how the terminology and the restrictions on "work" correlate. Atonement is a shabbat shabbaton (and is a day of fasting besides). The weekly Sabbath (on which one may eat but not cook food: Exodus 16:23) is likewise called shabbat shabbaton. The other fall Holy Days (which are special "feast days" of eating and drinking) are called simply shabbaton; and the spring Holy Days (notably the first Day of Unleavened Bread, on which we are specifically told food may be prepared: Exodus 12:16) are called by none of these terms.”
has to appeal, erroneously, to the NT to make his claim that “all Holy Days are “sabbaths” - he can’t do it from the OT or the Septuagint. As he notes the holy days of Unleavened Bread and Pentecost are not called sabbathons let alone sabbaths.
The word Sabbath used by itself (as opposed to a word pair as with the Day of Purgation) refers only to the seventh day of the week.
Nicely spoken 228
ReplyDeleteDennis said, "Maybe that's why I never was ordained a "Pastor Rank Minister" ever! I did pastor 14 congregation over 26 years in 5 states, alone, but only as a "Preaching Elder" Darn! "
ReplyDeleteMY COMMENT - I never understood how the Church came up with these arbitrary rank distinctions. So, in my Church area, Ken Westby was Pastor of the Baltimore-Washington, D.C. Worldwide Church of God congregations circuit. and a regional director over a region that extended from Harrisburg Pennsylvania in the north to Walterboro, South Carolina congregation in the South (and all the congregations along the way). Being a regional director, he went on the road quit a bit. Thus, he left the "pastoring" of the Baltimore congregation to Preaching Elder Vince Panella who in reality gave most of the sermons in Baltimore. Not always, but most of the time. Carl Fowler was a local elder but was given a "pastor" assignment to the Annapolis, Maryland WCG congregation when it was formed. Fred Kellers, another preaching elder with a pastor assignment in Richmond, Virginia WCG congregation would come to guest speak in Washington when Ken was on travel.
The only thing I can think of Dennis (other than pure Church politics) is perhaps Church size and number of Churches mattered in defining the difference between "a preaching elder with a church Pastor assignment" versus the formal "Pastor Rank minister". Ken Westby's Baltimore/Washington D.C. church circuit assignment had a combined attendance of 1,200 people. Fred Kellers in Richmond had around 300.
Richard
I never understood how the Church came up with these arbitrary rank distinctions.
ReplyDeleteBIBLE EVANGELIST: Itinerant preacher, risks his life proclaiming the gospel
WCG EVANGELIST: Senior administrator, resides in a national Headquarters facility, paid very well.
BIBLE PASTOR: Organizes a local congregation, teaches, counsels, provides for the needy.
WCG PASTOR: Goes where HQ tells him, polices member disloyalty, farms for member tithes and is rewarded for success.
BIBLE PREACHING ELDER: Huh? There's no "preaching elder" in Scripture.
WCG PREACHING ELDER: We need a rank to keep useful men out of the draft without putting them on our payroll.
BIBLE LOCAL ELDER: Lives an exemplary life and speaks convincingly of his faith.
WCG LOCAL ELDER: Gives more tithe and offering than most members, sucks up to the local ministry.
Yes and No to HWA said...
ReplyDelete"...John Wheeler (LCG)...has to appeal, erroneously, to the NT to make his claim that 'all Holy Days are "sabbaths"' - he can’t do it from the OT or the Septuagint. As he notes the holy days of Unleavened Bread and Pentecost are not called sabbathons let alone sabbaths."
The word Sabbath used by itself (as opposed to a word pair as with the Day of Purgation) refers only to the seventh day of the week.
Agree with you Yes and No!
That was the very first error I noted in reading your comment quoting Wheeler. He cites John 19:31 which states: "...on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,)..."
Wheeler interprets it to mean an annual Sabbath. But, it explicitly states it was "the sabbath day" (ie weekly sabbath) and "that sabbath day" was "an high day." Idk how you interpret "an high day," but I interpret it to mean that it was "great" (cf John 7:37) because both the weekly and annual Sabbaths fell on the same day that Holy Week (ie seventh day/weekly Sabbath).
If it was a weekday imo then John would have been clear about that ie "...(for that day was an high day)..." He wouldn't have needed to refer to it as "the Sabbath day" if it wasn't the 7th day of the week. But, he did refer to that specific day as the Sabbath day and in addition to that it was "an high day" (ie both a weekly and annual Sabbath on the same day). If the 15th Nisan fell on Thursday that year, for instance, like Armstrongists promote John would have written something like:
"The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away."
But, he was clear that it was both the weekly sabbath and also an "high day" together not a weekday that was a "high day" or annual Sabbath as Armstrongists predominately teach.
@ 5:49 PM, you are right that there is nothing in scripture to distingush "Local Church Elder" and "Local Elder" and "Preaching Elder" which were each a separate rank within WCG.
ReplyDeleteHowever, once "Preaching Elder" became a thing, didn't nearly all the AC men get that ordination? Or did losers get sent home as a mere "Local Elder"? At one point, I thought the "Local Church Elder" was actually distinct from "Local Elder" and wasn't intended to "transfer" between church areas like other ranks. Maybe Dennis and some other ordained lurkers can chime in here with their memories?
You started paying special attention to ministers when they were Pastors and Evangelists. I think “Local” and “Preaching” primarily distinguished between giving sermonettes and sermons.
DeleteBB
8:41am said:
ReplyDelete"That was the very first error I noted in reading your comment quoting Wheeler. He cites John 19:31 which states: "...on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,)..."
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Actually you're wrong, that's not what John 19:31 says, at least not in the Greek. The word day is not in that verse three times, only once after the word high.
It actually says "...on the sabbath, (for that sabbath was an high day)
Insignificant? Maybe, but we have to remember the copies that we have are in Greek and we can't form doctrine based solely on English translations.
If you look into the Greek you'll notice that the two words "sabbath" are spelled differently. Significance? I don't know, I'm not a Greek scholar.
You'll also know that the case of the two sabbath words are different. The first use of sabbath is in the dative case and the second usage is in the genitive case.
What does that mean? I don't know it's Greek to me, but a simplistic, "well it says sabbath day so it must mean the weekly sabbath day" just won't fly imo.
Believe what you want, but you haven't proven Jesus died on a Friday, nor have I proven it was Wednesday. I really don't care, he died and then was resurrected. At least that's what I believe. Can I prove it? Nope, I wasn't there
Kevin McMillen
Kevin McMillen said: "...The word day is not in that verse three times, only once after the word high. It actually says '...on the sabbath, (for that sabbath was an high day)...If you look into the Greek you'll notice that the two words 'sabbath' are spelled differently...You'll also know that the...first use of sabbath is in the dative case and the second usage is in the genitive case."
ReplyDeleteRight you are Kevin! The first instance it is "to sabbato" and in the second it is "tou sabbatou". Now I'm no expert and I don't claim to be, but my present understanding is, put simply, exactly how you put it, ie "well it says sabbath day so it must mean the weekly sabbath day." There are 6 passages where the first case is used (N-DNS) and 9 in the second case (N-GNS) if I'm not wrong, and in each I have no issue with them referring to the weekly Sabbath day in every instance.
"Believe what you want, but you haven't proven Jesus died on a Friday, nor have I proven it was Wednesday. I really don't care, he died and then was resurrected. At least that's what I believe. Can I prove it? Nope, I wasn't there"
My purpose wasn't to prove to you, Kevin, or anyone else that Jesus died on Friday. It would take tens (or hundreds) of pages to prove it tbh. Personally I believe He died on Friday and rose on Sunday. As a result I noted Wheeler's assumption and highlighted it in accordance with my own understanding. That's all. Peace bro :-)
3:26 Peace to you too bro.
ReplyDeleteKevin McMillen
Kevinmcmillen64@gmail.com
@Tonto 8:41 am
ReplyDeleteYep, yer goin' straight to hell. Let this be a lesson; make sure everyone de-leavens their wives before Passover.