Revelation 21:1 says, "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more."
Why would there be no more sea and how could that kind of a New Heavens and New Earth literally be a great place to live?
Everyone I knew in the Worldwide Church of God from Herbert Armstrong on down taught and believed that the Book of Revelation is always literally true. I never heard the word "metaphor" uttered once when wondering "How could that be?"
So how could Revelation 21:1 be taken literally without creating Hell, not a New Heavens and New Earth on Earth?
One author offers this explanation.
"This passage puzzled me for a long time, too. After all, most of us enjoy the sea -- boating, swimming, snorkeling, etc. The sea is beautiful, and majestic. It would be a shame if there were nothing to take its place in the new creation.
But in ancient Hebrew thought, the sea was a dangerous place. Among Israel's neighbors, Yam was the terrifying sea-god. Unlike their neighbors the Phoenicians (modern Lebanon), the Israelites were not especially fond of boats. The primeval waters of Genesis 1 are frightening and chaotic. During "de-creation" (the Flood), the primeval waters deluge the earth, although Noah's family is rescued. The Red Sea too is the scene of divine rescue, although the waters flood back once the Hebrews have crossed to dry land, killing the pursuing Egyptians. Joshua too crosses the water (near Jericho), a similar miracle preparing the way for the Israelites to enter the Promised Land.
Skye Jethani expressed it well: "The massive power and unpredictability of the sea is why ancient peoples saw it as a symbol of evil. The inhabitants of ancient Israel, who were not a seafaring people, viewed the ocean as a realm of chaos, destruction, and darkness. Rather than a delightful place for recreation, to them the sea was a dark abyss to be feared. In their literature, including the biblical narrative, the sea became a metaphor for the forces of evil and disorder that stood in opposition to their God of order and beauty" (With: Reimagining the Way you Relate to God, 136).
I also like the way Philip Graham Ryken put it: "The sea represents everything that chafes and frets under the dominion of God; everything that is out of our control. But there is nothing like that in the new heaven and the new earth. Everything there is under the orderly blessing of God" (in D. A. Carson and Jeff Robinson Sr., eds., Coming Home Essays on the New Heaven and New Earth, 125).
So when John tells is that there will be no more sea, God is assuring us that in the new world there will be no more evil, chaos, or danger. I imagine (speculate) there will be no shortage of beauty and majesty! If the ocean is no more, then something better will have taken its place."
https://www.douglasjacoby.com/qa-1486/
I would suspect this to be more the intent of the author of Revelation. Unless "John" was just out of touch with the realities of such an event or on good drugs.
When I was digging at the archaeological site Megiddo in northern Israel, I was in the Valley of Megiddo. The world for Mount is "Har" and it is there that all the armies of the earth will gather in the place called "Har-Megiddo"
Revelation 16:
However, it was not difficult to notice that the actual space in the Valley of Megiddo was probably not big enough to accommodate "the Kings (armies I assume) of the whole world". Assyrians, Egyptians and many others have fought at Har-Megiddo for thousands of years for sure. But only two at a time. That would about do it.
2 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 13 Then I saw three impure spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits that perform signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.
When I inquired about this, Israel Finkelstein (The Bible Unearthed) said, "Well, we exaggerate."
When I was overlooking the Temple Mount and the church hymn "Mt Zion Stands Most Beautiful....the Joy of All the Land" came to mind, and since the hymn said "the city of the mighty king does on its North side stand", I looked South and asked, "Where is Mt. Zion?" I was told "Right there!? I said, "That's just a dirt hill and looks like all these other dirt hills."
He said, "We exaggerate"
I suspect that much of what the Churches of God cannot bring themselves to see as anything but literally true and how it will all be in the Wonderful World Tomorrow is metaphor and it would be wise not to portray it as anything else.
A world without literal seas would be Hell on Earth
I suspect Revelation 9:16 was also a bit of a reach with 200 Million HORSEMEN taking out 1/3 of humanity. (And don't substitute "tanks, troops and F-18's for Horsemen!)
The Sixth Trumpet
…15So the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16And the number of mounted troops was two hundred million; I heard their number. 17Now the horses and riders in my vision looked like this: The riders had breastplates the colors of fire, sapphire, and brimstone. The heads of the horses were like the heads of lions, and out of their mouths proceeded fire, smoke, and brimstone.…
…15So the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16And the number of mounted troops was two hundred million; I heard their number. 17Now the horses and riders in my vision looked like this: The riders had breastplates the colors of fire, sapphire, and brimstone. The heads of the horses were like the heads of lions, and out of their mouths proceeded fire, smoke, and brimstone.…
I’d vote for metaphor. Other passages in Revelation indicate that gold will be used as paving materials in New Jerusalem, and that there will be no night there.
ReplyDeleteAnyone who ever watched Star Trek realizes that alternative ecology systems are totally plausible. Much of what would be required to support life in these systems depends on the nature of the denizens. I like that word, denizens. It appears to have the same root as Dennis! So, this means that if denizen Dennis becomes God as God is God (copyright: HWA, 1932) and is omnipresent like God, then he’s not going to need an ocean! Hell, he won’t even need a planet!
If, however, Dennis simply has an incorruptible physical body, as many mainstream (uh oh, there’s that word again!) Christians believe, based on the manifestation of Christ to St.Thomas, then not only would Dennis require an earth-like ecology system, but also the sheer number of Dennis’s fellow denizens would mandate that more space is required for them all to have proper living areas. Abolishing the oceans could provide the needed space. Instead, we could have a superabundance of lakes! But, why get rid of something so cool as the oceans, when planet Earth could simply be remodeled and enlarged? One would have to imagine that God loves the oceans, and all creatures in them!
Now, if denizen Dennis becomes a spirit being who is not omnipresent, but who is always centered in a physical location, then that location could be planet Earth, or for that matter, outer space, or any of millions of celestial bodies, or even a black hole! He could live quite nicely on a desert planet similar to Mars, because the conditions and laws of physics and the universe (as manifested on planet Earth) would not be required to sustain his life.
This is another one of those scriptural passages about which the more one thinks, the more questions arise. We truly don’t have all the answers. Mysteries, or “need to know” are perfectly logical and acceptable to most non-ACOG members. It is only when you claim to be the “one true” that you must pretend to have all the answers!
BB
Gen 22:17 I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore ;
ReplyDeleteMuch of the Bible is poetic. A Hellenistic view of the world, which most of Western Christianity practices , demands a literalistic view of the scriptures. One does not need to count all the grains of sand on the seashore. What is being attempted to be conveyed is "big number".
144,000 likely means "perfect amount" (12x12x1000). In regards to the seas etc, it is conveying a "perfect place". Again, shouldn't be taken too literally.
This is exeigis porn. Just like that scarlet lady riding that Beast. Anyway, porn can be a liberating force, so I take notice of the interesting bits and pieces.
ReplyDeleteI visited Johns grave near Ephesus on my honeymoon. As a student I passed by Patmos on a greek steamer to Patrai. A lonely island. No women allowed.
Nck
Don't forget water is going to flow from the throne of Jesus Christ in the Kingdom of God. Running and flowing into rivers, with trees of healing fruit growing on the river banks. Plus rain, it will have to flow somewhere. But no mountains except the mountain of God. That will effect water on earth being different to what we are used to.
ReplyDeleteSo I guess there will be water but not seawater as huge oceans on earth in the reign of Jesus Christ.
Taken literally the Bible teaches that eating a tree of life fruit give eternal life. Anyone eating it receives eternal life. A relative handful of people with their hands on the nuclear button could destroy the earth. 200 million horseman not needed. Could you imagine the traffic jam? Even if the 200 million represents aircraft or helicopters, there are not that many required aircraft around. How many shovels would be needed for 200 million horses?
ReplyDeleteIf all rivers flow to the sea and there is no more sea, to what do the rivers flow? Or will rivers be like fake streams as were on the AC campus pumping the same water from bottom to top and back again?
ReplyDeleteIsa 65:17a For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:
ReplyDeleteRev 21:1a And I saw a new heaven and a new earth
The former is a ‘type,’ or firstfruits, of the latter, which has been described as the “eternal state”.
Rev 21:3 Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men,
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there...
The last great day being the goal of God’s plan, pictured in Rev 21:22; hence temporary dwelling are prescribed for seven days (Lev 23:42).
Rev 21:1a And I saw a new heaven and a new earth
Rev 21:2a And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem
Rev 21:3a And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men,
For “saw” in 21:1-2 and “heard” 21:3 see below.
“Revelation 21:1-22:5 contains the well-known and much discussed final vision of the entire Bible. There is, however a major problem... Why does John see ‘a new heaven and a new earth’ in Revelation 21:1 and yet in 21:2-3, 10-22:3 he sees a city that is garden-like, in the shape of a temple? Why does not John see a full panorama of the new heavens and earth? Why does he not see the many forests, rivers, mountains, streams, valleys and the many other features of fertile worldwide creation?
“... after initially saying that he saw ‘a new heaven and a new earth’, John focuses only on an arboreal city-temple in the remainder of the vision. The dimensions and architectural features of the city in these verse are drawn to a significant extent from Ezekiel 40-48, a prophecy of the dimensions and architectural features of a future temple (so vv. 2, 10-12, 21:27 - 22:2). The precious stones forming the foundation in Revelation 21:18-21 reflect the description of Solomon’s temple which was also overlaid with gold and whose foundations was composed of precious stones: see respectively 1 Kings 6:20-22 (and 5:17) and 7:9-19, and note that the dimensions of Revelation 21:16 (‘its length and width and height are equal’) are based on the dimensions of the ‘holy of holies’ in 1 Kings 6:20 (where the ‘length ... and the breadth ... and the height’ of the holy of holies were equal in measurement)...
Rev 21:1b and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:27a And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie:
“This equation of the new world with the city-temple becomes clearer when one begins to reflect on Revelation 21:27, which declares that ‘nothing unclean ... shall ever come into’ the urban temple. In this respect, it is significant to remember that in the Old Testament any uncleanness was to be kept out of the temple precincts (e.g., 2 Chr. 23:19; 29:16; 30:1-20)... This observation probably means that no uncleanness will be allowed into the new world... the exclusion of the unclean from the new city in 22:15 ... means they will also be excluded from dwelling in the new creation, since they will be in the lake of fire for ever...” (G. K. Beale, The Temple and the Church’s Mission, New Studies in Biblical Theology (NSBT) 17, pp.23-24).
“... the emphasis is not geographical [but Bob Thiel may thinks it is the Mediterranean] but moral; and spiritual. The sea refers as an archetype with connotations of evil... Therefore no trace of evil in any form will be present in the new creation” (Alan F. Johnson, Revelation, EBC, Vol.12, p.593).
Rev 21:1a And I saw a new heaven and a new earth
ReplyDeleteRev 21:2a And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem
Rev 21:3a And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men,
“Another observation points to the equation of the new cosmos with the city-temple. Revelation 21:1 commences, as we have seen, with John’s vision of ‘a new heaven and a new earth’, followed by his vision of the ‘new Jerusalem, coming down of heaven’ (v.2), after which he hears a ‘loud great voice’ proclaiming that ‘the tabernacle of God is among men, and he shall dwell among them’. It is likely that the second vision in verse 2 interprets the first vision of the new cosmos, and that what is heard about the tabernacle in verse 3 interprets both 1 and 2. If so, the new creation of verse 1 is identical to the ‘new Jerusalem’ of verse 2 and both represent the same reality as the ‘tabernacle’ of verse 3.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne...
“The ‘seeing-hearing’ pattern elsewhere in Revelation suggests that verses 1-3 refer to the same reality... A good example is Revelation 5:5, where John hears about a ‘Lion that is from the tribe of Judah’ who ‘conquered’. John sees a slain lamb possessing sovereign authority in verse 6, which interprets how the messianic conquered: he won victory ironically by dying as a ‘slain lamb’”.
Isa 65:17a For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:
Isa 65:18b for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy
“That the ‘new heaven and new earth’ of 21:1 is defined by and equated with the paradisal city temple of 21:2 and 21:9-22:5 is also supported by J. D. Levenson’s observation that ‘heaven and earth’ in the Old Testament may sometimes be a way of referring to Jerusalem or its temple, for which ‘Jerusalem’ is a metonymy. (A metonymy is the substitution of what is meant with something associated with what is meant). He quotes Isaiah 65:17-18 in support... These two new creation statements in these verses appear to be in a synonymously parallel relationship” (G. K. Beale, The Temple and the Church’s Mission, New Studies in Biblical Theology (NSBT) 17, pp.24-25).
Since this is about events that happen after the final judgement, way off in the future, it is interesting, but not relevant to us at this point in time.
ReplyDeleteThe relevant prophecies are about the return of Christ, and the arguments about whether it will actually happen.
The worlds population is 7.7 billion, so an army of 200 million is not unreasonable.
ReplyDeleteMetaphors? exeigis porn? Everyone here holding hands, singing kum baya (with Dennis Diehl leading), assuring one another that the bible is bull, changes nothing.
You are all going to appear before Gods judgment seat, and will be judged on what you once knew. All this intellectualizing away the truth eg, 'exeigis porn', will not be accepted.
'Exeigis porn?' Ha, ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha. And from a city slicker lawyer. Why aren't I surprised? Ha, ha, ha.
All that verse is saying is that John saw a renewed sky, a renewed land and no more sea. Did he mean no more sea on the whole planet or just the land of Israel? No Dead Sea, no Sea of Galilee.
ReplyDeleteWho knows, but talk about reading things into something that isn't there.
Kevin McMillen
Kevinmcmill64@gmail.com
TLA, how do we know it's talking about after the final judgement? Could it not be during the Great White Throne Judgement? Verse 8 says that there are still fearful, unbelieving, murderers, etc. and verse 27 says that no one that defileth shall enter into the city. Personally, as I've said before, I don't care. I don't have the need to answer every little question and wrap it up in a nice little package with a bow.
ReplyDeleteKevin McMillen
Kevinmcmill64@gmail.com
Dennis it seems you are trying to discredit anything about the bible you can in a forum directed at Armatrongism.
ReplyDeleteI consider armstrongitra unwilling to change fundamental errors that are obvious in scripture. Your ideas here seem silly and childish to argue about on any level.
Its like arguing about if She's wore a purple robe or did he really not wear a robe at all?
To people who don't care about Greek mythology its pointless to those who study Greek mythology it's debatable.
So who are you trying to convince of your beliefs? It seems like you should start your own site like dennisbeliefs.com and blog there.
I fins this site a useful source of debate and news about Armstrongism and you seem desperate to have your personal views validated and considered relevant.
9:07
ReplyDeleteI am with you on this one. The Road and Belt initiative connecting the Eurasian landmass could in another 40 years well encompass an army of 200 million men.
I hope for worlsld government though instead of Eurasian landmass domination of the world.
Nck
Sorry the above email address is wrong. I just set it up for this forum and had to try a few combinations before I got one that wasn't already being used and I forgot which one gmail accepted. Here's the correct one if anyone is interested:
ReplyDeleteKevinmcmillen64@gmail.com
Kevin
Try moving 200 million people on any road. It would be a traffic jam. Vehicles would eventually break down. The Chinese belt road does not go around the world or cross oceans. 200 million people would at some point need ships or aircraft to cross oceans. There are not enough transport ships or aircraft available for moving 200 million people at once. Pre supply of fuel would be difficult.
ReplyDeleteAnon 1236 said: "So who are you trying to convince of your beliefs? It seems like you should start your own site like dennisbeliefs.com and blog there. "
ReplyDeleteI post, not because of pushing "my beliefs" but counter the concept of pious convictions based on marginal information. A hallmark of the Churches of God and fundamentalists in general.
Anything I post is based on the fact that there is the unspoken splinter in the WCG debacle.
We have PCG, RCG, UCG, CGI, LCG, and we also have those who, because of their WCG experience and previous religious affiliations have come to think for themselves about all the questions that soaking in religion itself has raised. While those questions were never permitted to be asked or the answers were so childish and out of date may have worked when naïve and needing to believe, time no longer permitted such a luxury and stepping outside the box was a natural extention of the experience.
I also post here because with my WCG/Member/pastor background, I have been asked to. I have no beliefs of mine I aspire for anyone to adopt. I would like to think my beliefs simply reflect those of the people who have done the hard work of theology, history, cosmology, paleontology, origins both Biblical and scientific. I am not satisfied, and never should have been with answers given as apologetics because the need to believe was so much stronger than the need to be correct.
The ministry of the churches of God is not well educated in either theology or science. At least that was my experience. I call them "mere bible readers" not to demean but to point out that reading the Bible and giving oneself to where it came from and why, who did or didn't write it, what are the politics of it between the players and the fact that the story contained in it is a common one in all of human history with now a Hebrew spin, are two completely different things. One is cozy and can lead to all sorts of trouble in the lives of sincere folk at the hands of an uneducated pastor and the other is what I would have wanted to understand before ever becoming a pastor.
Making the Bible mean what it never meant is a dangerous, the profitable pursuit. I simply wish to point out at times a different way to think about the Bible and its story and that's ok because the Unspoken Splinter of those who dug a bit deeper than splinter hopping and drew larger conclusions about religion and its human origins that allowed them to move on with their real lives in this time and not imagined times to come.
I would encourage you, or anyone else here, to post your own views. If you wish to defend Gerald Flurry or Dave Pack, have at it. Tell us why they above all in religion, theology, science and the grasp of history are correct and should be listened to and lives lived accordingly. Dave Pack enforces the ridiculous resource grabbing Bible idea of "all things common." Defend that to us those of you who blindly do it or believe it. If you think your church splinter is the true church splinter, defend that here with your full name and affiliation.
ReplyDeleteI don't write anonymously. You know my name. You even know where I live and my phone number if you look around. You know my story, my former and current beliefs and why. You know my family affiliations with the church and others. You know my background before WCG and my views along the way. You know my shortcomings and failures as well if you have kept up. I've shared my journey through the depression and anxiety caused by change from religion to non-belief not only how but why. You might not like the why, but it is my why and not yours.
You see, I don't care if you know me well as I post because I am all of you. For every shortcoming I might have, I have sat for hours with others who you could not imagine had them as well. Everyone has them. It's why I wrote, "Everyone Wears a Mask" I have seen worn them and seen them on everyone else, member and minister, Apostle and Elijah. We're all just people, making mistakes of mind, body and spirit and doing the best we can in a world where knowledge indeed has been increased and is not a bad thing portending the end of the world as some think. Knowledge liberates some and frightens most.
So how about YOU post your story, your views, your beliefs and how you arrived at them? We'll listen. You're qualified if you had any portion of your mind and life filtered and strained through the Worldwide Church of God. That's what Banned is all about.
7:14, 7:33 Well written Dennis, and your story is why some of us here respect you and your opinions even if we don't agree.
ReplyDeleteIt would be nice if we could meet some time, perhaps you might consider coming to Destin, Fl this coming Tabernacles. It is the place where no one has placed their name.com
Kevin McMillen
Kevinmcmillen64@gmail.com
PS If you throw out the 300,000,000 gods suspected by Hinduism and world religions that have indeterminant numbers of them, you still have hundreds of gods adored and worshipped by millions. The Old Testament starts out with many Gods. One Supreme and many lesser ones. It was these gods that YHVH, the Hebrew version who usurped the traits of the Canaanite God El and turned the Council of the gods into Angels, fallen or otherwise that we see evolve in scripture into the one. In the NT, depending on how you see it and put the troubling parts together, we go from One God back to Three in One apologetically.
ReplyDeleteWhen you read, "You shall have no OTHER gods before ME (YHVH)...because I the Lord YOUR God am a JEALOUS God." believe it. It better reads "You shall not bring any other god into my presence...for I the Lord your God am a jealous God."
I just believe in one or three less than others. If it ever proves, and I mean "prove me now herewith" proves to be true. I will change in a heartbeat. Why would I not?
God inspired the bible to be understood by the little people. No background in cosmology, paleontology, science etc is required. We don't need big people like Dennis Diehl acting like some mental seeing eye dog, telling us what the bible really, really means.
ReplyDeleteI noticed this human trait while I attended services. Some people arbitrarily made themselves gate keepers of various things and responsibilities. I remember an old guy who made himself the gatekeeper of the bottle of red wine on ladies night, in graduate club. Another lady made herself the gatekeeper of single women who wanted to meet me. I didn't know her, and she was married, crying out loud. Absolute pest. And now we have Dennis who has likewise made himself the gatekeeper of understanding the bible.
Dennis,
ReplyDeleteCain killed Abel, not the other way around. You can post your name, address, and other personal details because people perceive you as a non winner. By contrast, other posters here that are perceived as succeeding, hence they put themselves at risk by giving out personal details.
8:24 The risk is merely a figment of your imagination. I'm willing to bet that between you and Dennis, that you are the real loser!
ReplyDeleteKevin McMillen
Kevinmcmillen64@gmail.com
Anon 8:14 AM repeated a common misunderstanding when he wrote:
ReplyDeleteGod inspired the bible to be understood by the little people. No background in cosmology, paleontology, science etc is required.
If you believe that there have been at least 6,000 years of human history by now (and maybe a lot more), then please consider this: for all but the last 600 or so, reading and writing have been the province of a tiny set of highly trained specialists. Were people not saved, or not properly following their God, until the Reformation? Not even HWA makes such a claim. There has always been a Church of God, but there has rarely been a majority of literate Church of God members.
Consider this, as a means of comparison. Hundreds of millions of people today use the Microsoft Office suite of programs. Most of Microsoft Office is written in a computer programming language called C++. Around the entire world, fewer than 30 million people can read and write C++.
You don't need to know C++ to use Microsoft Office. For most of human history, it was understood that you don't need to know Hebrew or Greek in order to use Judaism or Christianity. Would anyone be so bold as to say that you can't use Microsoft Word unless you know C++? Of course not! If you need the Bible to understand Jesus Christ, then the first generation of Christians must have been in trouble, as it took decades to assemble a corpus of New Testament scriptures to read.
Yes, the Bible is wonderful. It is the mind of God in print. But it is, and always has been, subordinate to the Church (or synagogue). People selected the Bible canon; the Bible did not select its human readers. To say otherwise is to turn Christianity into Gnosticism and into the confusion of myriad individual interpretations. Until we understand this, we will continue to make mistakes like Anon 8:14's.
Hello Dennis.
ReplyDeleteThe hindu gods are strictly not.
They are manifestations of the one.
Just like the trinity.
If you allow for 3. 300million is the same.
Nck
Kevin - my point is it does not matter to us now. Revelation gives a picture of the future after all the current events are completed. It does not impact how we live our lives today.
ReplyDeleteI've always wondered about this part of Revelation, I was not sure if that was literal or a metaphor. If Jesus is going to renew the earth I cannot imagine no oceans; if the earth is going to be restored would that not include oceans? After all if the oceans are gone that also mean some incredible sea life will be gone as well such as whales, dolphins sharks, stingrays and other incredible aquatic life. What a boring planet earth would be without oceans or even great lakes.
ReplyDeleteCraig
9.48 AM
ReplyDeleteChrist, the apostles, and others quoted the old testament. They did not quote the church or synagogue. Yours is the Roman Catholic point of view, not endorsed by the Bible itself. In Christ days, the bible subordinated to the synagogue resulted in the Pharisees. Today in the secular world, it gives us a traitorous fifth column main stream media. Your system sucks. You ignore that the majority of the bible is written to the level of today's twelve years old, with much repetition for emthesis clarity. No middlemen are required. Not forgetting, we had your system with the Roman Catholic church. How did that work out?
The bibles 'prove all things' is a personal responsibility, not to be sub contracted out to others.
Kevin, if you cannot discern Dennis's true motives, you are in no position to discern the winners from the non winners.
9.48 AM
ReplyDelete'Prove all things' is a individual responsibility. It is not to be subcontracted out to a synagogue or church. Christ, the apostles and other Christians quoted the old testament. They did not quote the church or synagogue. Subordinating the bible to the synagogue gave the world the Pharisees, and today gives us the traitorous main stream media in the secular world. Your big people, 'big government' system sucks.
You ignore that most of the bible is written at the level of today's twelve year old, with much repetition for clarity and emphasis.
The world experienced your system with the Roman Catholic church. How did that work out? This always happens when big government steals personal responsibilities.
The veil in the holy of holies split in two on Christ's death. This gave humanity direct access to God, with no middlemen, big people required.
Kevin, if you cannot discern Dennis's true motives, you are in no position to discern the winners from the non winners.
2:58 PM praised the Bible for its alleged simplicity, and for having:
ReplyDeletemuch repetition for emthesis clarity
As I have no idea of what "emthesis clarity" might be, I doubt repetition would help. What is he talking about?
If 2:58 PM does not realize that a group of middlemen came between him and Jesus to determine which of the many gospel accounts would become "the four" gospels, and that there are dozens of letters considered authentic but not part of the canon, he doesn't understand his own Holy Scriptures, and there is no point in talking further.
2:58 Unknown. (What kind of parent names their kid Unknown?)
ReplyDeleteHonestly, I've had my fill of anonymous pussies. Whose bravery is displayed behind their mother's skirt. Don't like it? Feel free to call upon me. Kevin McMillen, Morgantown, WV, Kevinmcmillen64@gmail.com.
Now concerning your idiotic comment I'm probably more qualified to discern and understand Dennis' true motives better than most. Why? Because you can discern from his writings that he's intelligent, unlike the majority in the WCG. Not many wise men, you know.
I've often joked with my wife that it's difficult living in a world where the average IQ is only 100.
While I don't know you personally, your comment reveals a lack of intelligence, but that is impossible to know for sure from just a couple posts. But let me tell you something, it's difficult being intelligent and religious. Your logical mind is always battling what you hope to be true. I'm sure that's why the bible says not many wise are called.
Top that off with a religious system that was easily proven false, it's a wonder more people don't go down the atheist pathway. I've often said that if the mainstream version of God was true, that God knew beforehand who would reject him and burn forever in hell, then I know that I'd be an atheist.
It's easy for a person of lower intelligence (lower in comparison to those in the top quintile) to have faith because they see fewer apparent contradictions and they don't have to deal with them.
Believe me, I have often struggled with having no true evidence of God. Sorry but the stars, the earth, aka the creation is not proof.
Proof to me would be going to a funeral of a loved one and praying over them to rise, and they do. Proof is not a successful surgery, or a couple conceiving after a decade of trying. That can all be explained by time and chance.
I've actually had a few experiences that I like to believe were miracles, but in all honesty I can't say they definitely were. That's where a lesser intelligence comes in to play for others. They're happy just to chalk it up to a miracle even when time and chance can explain it all.
Cont.
Part 2
ReplyDeleteOnce when I was 17 I was racing a friend and I was going 115mph across a bridge over a lake. A couple weeks later while driving to see my girlfriend(now wife) going only 30mph, I hit a pothole and the right front spindle broke off. Tire, brake drums (1966 Mustang Conv.), all went rolling out of sight. The car slid at least three hundred feet before stopping. It was the next spring when someone found the long lost tire and brought it to me, you could see rust on half the spindle, almost like it had been cut half way through. Remember I had been going 115mph over a lake just two weeks before that happened. I like to think there was an angel there, and I'd never deny that there was, but with my intelligence (In the 99th percentile) I know it could just be time and chance. I can't intellectually deny that, but someone with a 110 IQ may very well deny that it could just as easily be luck than miracle.
One of the tougher ones that I really have a hard time calling chance is when I was leaving the WCG and planning on going to a CGI service on a specific sabbath, the same sabbath that my son had to recite a memory scripture at YES class. I remember praying that if God wanted me to go to that CGI service that he'd haveto do something about that YES class. It's been over 27 years now so I don't remember exactly how many days later the call came, YES that sabbath was cancelled. Did God intervene? Again I like to say yes, but intellectually it could have been time and chance.
One day, I sincerely believe that if the bible is true, true Christians will begin to do exploits, and then we'll have undeniable proof. Until then, I have to admit that my faith is blind faith. I'm too intelligent to deny that, and the proof that others of lower intelligence reject blind faith is their mocking of my honesty.
Just as those of lower intelligence mock Dennis' honest questions of whether God exists or not, after all we only have a book, written by men supposedly over 1950 years ago. Until God (if there really is one) decides to show himself, all we have is either honest doubt or honest blind faith. I don't believe that a real God will reject anyone who is honest and not self deceiving.
Kevin McMillen
Morgantown, WV
Kevinmcmillen64@gmail.com
Know what is really funny? “Prove all things” is a very basic process in which all humans should indulge. As such, it is unremarkable. It’s the scientific method, a primary precept.
ReplyDeleteWhat I’ve found is that when some use the phrase “prove all things”, there is a hidden proviso! They mean “prove all things the way we tell you to prove them, or you’ve got a bad attitude and are headed for the Lake of Fire!”
BB
3.50 PM
ReplyDeleteMy 3.41 post says clarity and emphasis. No one likes a nit picker.
Your post assumes that the bible is the product of a "group of middlemen." I believe that God was involved in the creation and protection of today's Christian bible. Gods "live by every word of God" doesn't make sense otherwise. Both the old and new testament warns men not to add or subtract from Gods word. So the discretion that you imply writers had is questionable.
"No point in talking further?" Typical middleman response. You can state your case, but others don't have the right to reply. Just like a schoolyard bully. Yet we are to trust your interpretation of the bible.
I leave you with 2 Timothy 2:15 'study to show yourself approved of God, ...rightly dividing the word of truth..' That is, bible study is a personal responsibility, with the personal responsibility of 'dividing the truth.' No middleman involved.
And how do you reconcile your point of view with 'don't lord it over others faith?'
3.50 PM
ReplyDeletePerhaps you can start your own church. Call it the Middleman Church of God. And have your own translation of the Bible. Call it the Middleman Bible. Instead of the title Minister, use Middleman instead. Middleman John Smith. Call the elders Middleman-Elders. I'II start my own blog called Banned by Middleman.
Kevin
ReplyDeleteIt was a computer glitch that resulted in the 'unknown' name.
When I made the decision to live a Christian life, and acted accordingly, answered prayer became common. It was self evident. To me, not to others. Since God is no respecter of persons, I suggest you look at your own Christian life, since that's not the case.
If you were growing as a person, you would arouse murderous envy. You would not be giving out your name on Banned or any other site. Rather, you would be laying low out of self preservation.
Where's your respect for peoples right to anonymity?
Why do atheists hate having their viewpoint challenged yet have no problems attacking others?
ReplyDeleteHypocritical aethiests have no grounds to argue anything especially religion. Without religion you are a meat puppet and you have no moral authority to tell anyone anything.
Science proves the evolution and that is the strong survive. Therefore if are an atheist you are scientifically required to be racist as well. If not which science do atheists deny?
Now atheists love to accuse bible believers of being antiscience bumbling morons. But if you spend your life accusing others you shouldn't be surprised when people stand up to your bullying.
Armstrongism is a deep chasm of lies but so is atheism.
8:21 I have absolutely no respect for cowards. Especially cowards who don't have faith that God will protect them.
ReplyDeleteTell me, what do I have to fear by revealing my name on here? Are you going to come to WV to kick my ass? I seriously don't think so. Cowards don't do such things.
Unless you've seen people rise from the dead, polio stricken limbs instantly healed, people with cerebral palsy instantly healed, etc. I don't want to hear your claims of answered prayer, anything less than miracles at that level can be explained as time and chance.
Your comment is exactly why I said it takes a low level of intelligence to see miracles in cancer being healed after medical or natural treatment. Show me a cancerous tumor being healed right before ones eyes in a MRI then we'll talk about miracles.
I'm not denying that God might intervene in small ways at this time, but he's obviously not ready to truly reveal himself if he does exist. I really wish he would. I've asked for those obvious miracles many times. They haven't come, but I still believe God exists. It's hilarious, the intelligent call me a fool, the low intelligence believers say I lack faith. Whatever, I don't care.
You can mock my honesty all that you want, I still believe in God even though I know that he hasn't revealed himself yet in a significant way. Your mocking means nothing for my Savior said "blessed are they who have not seen yet believe". I haven't seen, yet I believe.
What do you mean "since that's not the case"? I told you about two of the several times that I think God intervened in my life but as I said, they could have been explained as time and chance. It takes a very low level of intelligence not to realize that. Apparently you fit that criteria.
Am I slacking God by admitting that a great miracle that can't be explained by time and chance hasn't happened in my life? Does it increase your faith to claim that a hang nail being healed is a miracle?
Whatever! You come here, afraid to reveal who you are, mock people who are open and honest about themselves, revealing a deep character flaw in yourself. An inferiority complex perhaps?
You are most likely a current or former RCG or PCG member and believe me it would take an extremely low level of intelligence to ever join one of those groups.
Go ahead, go hide in your little anonymous room, typing out your brave little rebuttals, telling yourself that you're a brave, miracle believing man!
Kevin McMillen
Kevinmcmillen64@gmail.com
Kevin
ReplyDeleteGod protected the new born Christ by fleeing to Egypt, ie hiding. The adult Christ hid on occasion. I'm sure you would hide if it was in your favor. You are like bullies who demand that others play by their rigged self serving rules. Rules that they readily discard if it suits them.
You and Dennis don't need to hide since no one kicks a dead dog.
Try growing as a person and see what happens?
Kevin McMillen wrote:
ReplyDeleteYou are most likely a current or former RCG or PCG member and believe me it would take an extremely low level of intelligence to ever join one of those groups.
Kevin, you are either stupid or heartless (maybe both) in that you fail to recognize that a majority of current PCG attendees were born into the 30-year old cult, and that many who remain are doing so because of the "no contact" policy that would destroy their families if they left. Your arrogant sense of superiority is far, far from what Christ asks of His followers. Dennis Diehl's posts here are far, far more Christlike than yours.
People think we won't recognize their writing style when they post as anonymous. It works if someone is an occasional drive-by poster, because there is not enough time to get to know that style. Either Kevin or someone with his very specific nuances and techniques does conduct arguments under the anonymous moniker.
ReplyDelete7.34 AM
ReplyDeleteSo true. Some people know who I am, even though I post under anonymous. I know this from feedback.
4/8 7:11 said..."Dennis Diehl's posts here are far, far more Christlike than yours."
ReplyDeleteUm that's debatable ;-)
7:34am, which anonymous post do you think that I wrote? I guarantee that I didn't write it, especially if it was critical to someone elses comment because I don't believe in being critical while anonymous.
ReplyDeleteHow do we know that you didn't write those anonymous posts mimicking my style (or lack thereof) so that you can make the above accusation?
Honestly I have no problem if someone wants to post anonymously about their thoughts on specific issues. My problem is when they attack or argue anonymously. That's pure cowardice!
Call me what you want when I confront someone who's arguing with me anonymously. I don't care.
As far as remaining anonymous because of family in PCG or RCG that's just an excuse to be a coward.
Do I look down upon anyone dumb enough to ever join PCG, RCG? Hell yes. Including, but not quite as bad, anyone joining COGWA, UCG, LCG, etc, etc, etc.
If you don't like it, I don't care. Growing up in the WCG from two years old to twenty seven, and now twenty seven years out, I'm used to being judged and condemned by self righteous jerks!
Have fun hiding in your hole,
Kevin McMillen
Morgantown, WV
Kevinmcmillen64@gmail.com
Also, as far as my being heartless as you judgmentally accuse (typical for low intellect acog members), perhaps you're correct. Or possibly it could simply be a low tolerance for ignorant people who really should know better! Maybe something I should repent of. Nah, I happen to remember a fellow a long time ago calling a group of ignorant people, who really should have known better, hypocrites, whitewashed sepulchres, vipers, etc. Maybe I'm just good at following his example. I'll let him be my judge since I've been judged enough by self righteous individuals in the church.
ReplyDeleteKevin McMillen
Kevinmcmillen@gmail.com
7:11 Obviously you are the stupid one since I said specifically that it would take a low level of intelligence to JOIN one of those groups. If you were born into it you obviously didn't join.
ReplyDeleteSo much for your judging me.
Kevin McMillen