Fear does motivate. Fear causes one to join. Fear keeps one in place. But, perfect love is said to cast out fear, so let's take a stab at putting the Book of Revelation in its proper place in history and reality and let the chips fall where they may.
"The Truth never changes; but we are not always as well informed as we would like to believe. We Christians must be flexible enough to change our positions when we discover we have made mistakes. We may not be comfortable with Truth which is different from what we were taught as children; but then we have no promise that the Truth is something which we will always be comfortable with. In any case, when differences come to light, we, not the Truth, must change."
Don Stoner
Consider Preterism
Preterism is the belief that all Bible prophecies, including those concerned with the return of Christ, resurrection of the dead, rapture, judgment, and arrival of the kingdom of God, came to complete fulfillment in A.D. 70 upon the destruction of Herod’s temple in Jerusalem as predicted by Jesus.
"The problem is not in what the Bible teaches. The problem is the assumptions and expectations modern Christians bring to the Bible. Everyone has opinions about what biblical prophecy should be about, and those opinions have a lot to do with what Christians “see” in prophecy. We recognize the critical role these assumptions play in our understanding of various portions of the Bible. But prophecy, understood on its own terms, is often surprisingly direct and simple." - Tim Martin
When will Jesus return?
This question is often asked today. It was also asked by the disciples. Jesus answered His disciples and His words are straight and true:
When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. (Matthew 10:23)
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” (Matthew 16:27-28)
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.” (Matthew 16:27-28)
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.....Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.(Matthew 24:30-34)
Revelation
1. The Date of Revelation
2. Timing and Theme
3. The Beast
4. The Millennium
When was Revelation written?
AVOID THE QUICK FIX OF 96
When confronted with the Preterist view of Eschatology people often say, "Wasn't the Book of Revelation written after 70 A.D.?" They point out (incorrectly) that Revelation was written in 95 or 96 A.D. This is known as the "quick fix of 96" for if Revelation was written under Domitian's reign then the Preterist view has a problem. The fact is the Book of Revelation was written before Before Jerusalem Fell as hyper creedalist Ken Gentry shows in his book. There are two kinds of evidence regarding the composition of the Apocopypse, internal evidence and external evidence. Internal comes from within Revelation itself and is therefore the most important kind of evidence. External evidence is evidence from outside Revelation such as writings of the early church fathers. External evidence does not hold as much weight as internal evidence. Below is the tip of the ice berg for internal evidence to prove Revelation was written under the reign of Nero Caesar before 70 A.D. For more in-depth study read the book Before Jerusalem Fell.
1. Revelation was written at a time when Christianity and Judism were operating in the same circles. This was not the case after the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D.
2. Revelation chapter 11 tells us that the temple was still standing. We know the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.
3. Nero Caesar was the reigning emperor at the composition of Revelation as chapter 17 indicates. Nero was the sixth emperor.
4. If Revelation was written in 95 or 96 A.D. there surely would have been mention of Herod's Temple having been destroyed 25 years earlier, but there is silence on this issue.
See the article Date of Revelation by Timothy King.
The Time and Theme of Revelation
At the very beginning of the Book of Revelation we are told explicitly when the prophesies contained in the book were to be fulfilled! The timing of the prophecies is the key to understanding Revelation.
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. (Revelation 1:1-3)
John was not writing to Christians living in America in the 21st century. He was writing to seven churches in Asia which have long since disappeared. Revelation cannot be understood apart from this fact.
(The Seven Letters to the Seven Churches in Asia Minor are NOT types of Church Eras. That is just made up to give Revelation modern a significance it does not deserve in actual history.
Dennis Diehl)
4 John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, (Revelation 1:4)
Grace to you and peace from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, (Revelation 1:4)
The theme to the Book of Revelation was the Second Coming of Jesus against the apostate Jews in A.D. 70. This was prophesied by Jesus in Matt. 10:23, 16:27-28, Ch 24, etc. The phrases “they who pierced Him” and “all the tribes of the land” are two familiar designations for Old Covenant Israel.
7Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! (Revelation 1:7 YLT)
John clearly identified himself and the seven churches in Asia Minor as living in the tribulation!!!
9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. ( Rev 1:9 NKJV)
Jesus said to the church in Thyatira:
25 But hold fast what you have till I come. (Revelation 2:25)
Question: Is the church at Thyatira still holding on to what they have? Are they still waiting for Jesus to return? Obviously not. The church at Thyatira is long gone now. So did Jesus fail? Did He deceive that church? Or did He come back in their lifetime as He promised?
Jesus said to the church in Sardis:
"Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown." (Revelation 3:11)
"Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown." (Revelation 3:11)
Question: Is the church at Sardis still holding on to what they have? Are they still waiting for Jesus to return? Obviously not. The church at Sardis is long gone now. So did Jesus fail? Did He deceive that church? Or did He come back in their lifetime as He promised?
The Lord told the seven churches in Asia in the first century He was coming quickly in their time.
“Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.” (Revelation 22:7)
10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. (Revelation 22:10)
Contrast with Daniel 8:26 which reads:
26 “ And the vision of the evenings and mornings Which was told is true; Therefore seal up the vision, For it refers to many days in the future.”
There was only about 500 years between Daniel and Revelation.
“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
(Revelation 22:12)
He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! (Revelation 22:20)
(Revelation 22:12)
He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus! (Revelation 22:20)
The Beast of Revelation was Nero Caesar......
Revelation 17:9-10
9 Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.
FULFILLED IN NERO
The first seven Kings of the Roman Empire were:
1. Julius Caesar
2. Augustus Caesar
3. Tiberious Caesar
4. Gaius Caesar
5. Claudius Caesar "Five have fallen"
6. Nero Caesar "one is"
7. Galba "must remain for a little while"
Galba was the King for only seven months.
......con't
Probably written in the Summer of 69 AD just prior to the fall of Jerusalem, Revelation was meant to encourage Jewish Christians in the city to hang in there as in three and half years Rome would fall and the Messiah would come. It was written using Daniel in mind which was written to encourage the Jews to hang in there during the Maccabean wars for Jerusalem in the 160's BCE. Rome won both encounters and the Book of Revelation was a failed prophecy in hindsight. It was written for them of the first century and is not for us of the 21st.
ReplyDeleteOn our honeymoon, after sightseeing Ephesus we stopped at "Johns grave" and I paid my respects.
ReplyDeleteOn another stopover at Laodicea at a carpetmakers factory they performed all tricks of the trade to have me buy one of those magic carpets, including shipping and tax deduction.
On the first ac alumni blog around 1999 one guy offered an extremely plausible alternative reading of Revelation.
It included many star constellations, zodiacs and starsigns all hidden in both the text and the mathematics of hebrew writing.
Kinda like the babylonian priesthood got the last say in how the good book would or should finish.
Later the same guy went heavily into gothic norse meditation techniques. Not my cup of tea. I did sent him a card from Rennes Le Chateau as a friendly gesture, one of the greatest hidden mathematical temples for the initiated.
But his esoteric connecting of the ancient text with star constellations struck a personal cord with me as heir of navigators.
Likewise it struck a cord with me when HWA (mr Revelation unveiled) was called "a navigator for the influential class" by the Lebanese officials before the civil war struck there.
It seems Revelation is a mysterious book for those seeking to navigate. It is clearly the foundation of christian philosophy, providing a marked end from a beginning, thus indicatinhg the linear process that is the foundation of western thought. (vs eastern thought with its asian "balance" or cycles)
Nck
Or rather Revelation might just be the introduction of an Eastern cycle, with its renewed earth after another cycle ended.
ReplyDeleteAh yes. East and West. When will the twain meet.
Nck
Julius Caesar was not crowned as king or emperor.
ReplyDeleteHe was the first dictator. Augustus was the first emperor.
Otherwise your list of kings fits.
The COGs rely on "fake Christians" to say which of the books are in the NT canon.
The inspired canon by the non-inspired.
Dennis
ReplyDeleteI don't recall an army of 200 million sweeping through Europe in Roman times. Only in modern times can such a army be fielded. So Revelations prophesys are yet to be fulfilled.
Dennis,
ReplyDeleteI met a lady online 15 years ago on the (now defunct) Painful Truth site, and we have been happy together since.
I wish you and your lady the absolute best of all that life has to offer.
~Mel
Great observation TLA.
ReplyDeleteEven Octavian/Augustus saw himself as "princeps" first among equals and the addition "Ceasar" as an honorary title. After all Julius C was killed because it was rumored he wanted to restore the "kingshiolp". Formally nothing changed in the Republic.
Of course in reality Octavian usurped both the "imperium" proconsulare// the power to temporarily command the combined legions and the tribunicia potestas// the power of the peoples tribune to veto the senate.
Later historians refer to this as the start of the empire. Formally they were just consuls who had usurped former separated powers in one person.
These were not heridatary positions. Soon the advisory body of the senate turned into a legislative one and it was not long that they turned into only a court and sanctioning body for the oratio of the ceasar.
Thus the decay of the republic into an empire. By 135 Hadrians rule no one questioned that an edict of the emperor had the power of law and did not need sanctioning by the senate.
I include this not to "oppose" dennis his thesis, but to shed light on the current struggle of The Republic to maintain the power of the people versus its officials through its institutions.
Once rot sets in detoriation sets in quickly even if all the names, functions and puppets still have the titles of the former.
Nck
That Dennis regularly posts anti-bible and anti-believing-in-God-articles at holy day times, gives away his true beliefs and motivation. Satan has his helpers.
ReplyDeleteNck- I assume by current struggle you are referring to the USA. I think social media is the final dagger in our flawed political process and that our political swings will get wilder and wilder.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the other commenter about the 200 million- I understand this could mean myriads- meaning a large number.
How would you transport 200 million people from Asia?
And why would the Euphrates need to be dried up?
918. 200 million is hyperbole which common to apocalyptic lit.
ReplyDeleteTLA. Some find Vespasian to be the intended Beast and the hated by Jewish Christians to be the Apostle Paul himself
Nck said: "I did sent him a card from Rennes Le Chateau as a friendly gesture, one of the greatest hidden mathematical temples for the initiated."
ReplyDeleteI remember learning about the mystique of Rennes Le Chateau as a young boy reading my uncle's copy of "The Unexplained: Mysteries of Mind, Space and Time"--those were the days! I even recall in high school using it as the basis for a treasure story kinda in the vein of "Raiders of the Lost Ark" I wanted to write--my English teacher even singled mine out to read to the class even though I had only written a couple of paragraphs he thought it was that good lol!--but alas I never finished it. A couple decades later and Dan Brown's "Da Vinci Code" was published and became an international bestseller. I was so glad that I wasn't alone in thinking it such a cool! I only wish that I would've written mine--I still hope to... *sigh*
I'll be looking forward to your contribution.
DeleteEspecially since Dan Brown is only a mediocre novelist and plagiarist.
We could do soooo much better. Baigent and Lincoln had contacted Pasadena HQ for opinions on the ten kings and european unification regarding the messianic legacy, but this was at the time Pasadena had already dismissed the fall of the Berlin Wall as prophetically insignificant.
For the uninitiated the quaint little town has not much too offer. For those who are its the center of a great pentacle shaped illusionary temple dedicated to the movement of Venus.
AS ABOVE....SO BELOW.
The book of revelation mentions all of the babylonian star signs and constellations.
AS ABOVE ... SO BELOW
WCG held all the keys to the mysteries and never grasped what the keys were for.
It is Mercury the messenger of the Gods who foretells what is to come, since he was the one who liaised between some 164 Gods of his time.
If you follow the yellow brick road, for some it brings disillussion to discover the wizzard behind the curtain and they feel betrayed and spend a lifetime talking about their hurt on blogs. To others the discovery of the wizzard tells them that they found ozz and brings instant relief.
Most can enjoy the wizzards jewels in for instance the ports of cannes or ft lauderdale but not many ask themselves why they all carry the flag of the Bermudas or Cayman.
It leads many to complain about how hurt they are by the gods that betrayed them. But a ticket to the Louvre, Smithsonian, British Museum, Gugenheim is usually affordable for all and sometimes free.
It is the mindset that sets one free. The space within mans cells and neutrons and atoms is exactly similar as the space between the planets.
At the FOT 1977(?) we were shown IBM's powers of ten.
AS ABOVE ....SO BELOW.
I won't have time to tell you where the temple treasure is hidden that vespasian took and the visigoths plundered and took to reddea. But perhaps to just follow the yellow brick road is the path to find the REAL treasure we need.
Anyway. You can use this for your book. I won't sue you as Stan Rader and Kuhn sued Spielberg for Raiders.
Nck
Anon 9:18 needs to understand that the Biblical writers sometimes used hyperbole. Consider this passage from Mark 1:
ReplyDeleteAnd so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.
It is easy enough to demonstrate that these verses are not literally true. If all the people of Jerusalem received John's baptism, then much of the rest of Mark's gospel makes no sense, even leaving aside the fact that "all" being baptized would necessitate infant baptism which is problematic in its own right. Once we understand that some Bible passages use hyperbole, much that was confusing and implausible becomes clear.
...and too. The pint I am making in the posting is in response to the effect taking the Book of Revelation as seriously for our times and inflicting all the associated fear and foolishness on children and adults in church is unfounded. This is not my "thesis". This is the more common understanding of the book, it's history and original meaning to those to whom it was actually written.
ReplyDeleteThe Book of Revelation was simply never written for us and, because of the way Apocalyptic Literature is written, one can always find it talking to them in all ages because it gives no hint of the actual people it is referring to. The author could have just as easily listed who the "five were and one now is" but that's not how you write it. Also, Since Rome was still in charge, it would be suicide for the Christian community of the day to promote the fall of the Romans and Casesars openly in their literature. You see that caution in the Book of Daniel as well with vaguaries about the nations being spoken of.
You could mock and knock the Jews, who could do you no harm, all you wanted and you see this in the NT openly, but the Romans only get praise and respect (Romans 13) because they can nail you to the door.
ReplyDeleteDennis,June 8, 2019 at 5:50 AM, wrote: "...The author could have just as easily listed who the "five were and one now is" but that's not how you write it..."
The author could have easily listed the 7 heads as follows:
1. Egypt
2. Assyria
3. Babylon
4. Media-Persia
5. Greco-Macedonia "five are fallen"
6. Rome “One is” in (John’s time)
7. Gog & Magog “the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."
However, God did not inspire the author to write it that way either.
God also inspired the author to write the following about an "eighth:"
:11 "And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."
And time will tell...
John
Herbert Armstrong was totally wrong about a global conspiracy. Many world leaders spoke of such a conspiracy but it is NOT the Germans who are behind it. In fact blaming the Germans is the WORST thing Armstrong could have done. It played right into the hands of the conspirators.
ReplyDelete"The World is ruled by very different personages than those who are not behind the scenes would imagine."
-- BENJAMIN DISRAELI, Prime Minister, Great Britain
"We shall have World Government whether or not we like it. The question is only whether World Government will be achieved by consent or by conquest."
-- JAMES WARBURG, Banker, 1953, U. S. Congressional Hearing.
"The truth is that for the last 147-years the fire of revolution has smoldered steadily beneath the ancient structure of civilization.. it is not local, but universal... its causes must be sought in a deep-laid conspiracy... which constitutes the greatest menace that has ever confronted the human race... the conception of the [named culprits removed from fear of censorship] ...forms a concerted attempt to achieve world-domination."
-- NESTA H. WEBSTER, World Revolution, Briton Press 1971
"This movement among the [removed] is not new. From the days of Sparticus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kuhn (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this worldwide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and the reconstruction of society on the basis of arrested development, envious malevolence, and impossible equality has been steadily
growing. It played, as Mrs. Nesta Webster, historian, has so ably shown, a definitely recognizable part in the tragedy of the French Revolution, and the mainspring of every subversive movement during the Nineteenth Century ...the majority of the leading figures are [removed]. Moreover, the principal inspiration
and driving power comes from [removed] leaders."
-- WINSTON CHURCHILL, Illustrated Sunday Herald (1920)
Churchill NAMED the culprits. It was NOT the Germans.
I could find NUMEROUS additional quotes, even from the conspirators themselves, admitting their role. It is the solemn duty of all people to take this very seriously, stop DENYING it, and fight against it.
Herbert Armstrong was cooperating with the conspirators. I do not know to what extent he knew what he was doing. He could have been duped or a sell out.
Preterism makes a lot of Revelation understandable. However, there are elements of the Book that are obviously yet future. A type of dualism perhaps?
ReplyDelete"You could mock and knock the Jews, who could do you no harm ..."
ReplyDeleteTell that to Jesus who was crucified, not because the Romans opposed his message, but because the Jews did. Even Pilate felt helpless and tried to wash his hands of the matter but felt he had to go along with the crucifixion anyway.
A former minister ought to know that.
John, the author was not alluding to empires but to contemporary Caesars but not naming them.
ReplyDeleteEven in Daniel, the empires listed as seeming prophetic were not written about ahead of time in 585 BCE but in hindsight in 165 BCE. This is why Daniel seems so prophetically true but it is not history prophecied but prophecy historized. The writing style is called Midrash.
Time has already told....
HWA's cult was part of a system of deception and cults that is world wide. It is far deeper than anyone can imagine.
ReplyDeleteI think a lot of people know the world conspiracy is true, so they deny it and mock it because they are "on-board" with it and want it to succeed. They think this world government will be a good thing. They are sadly mistaken. If it were good, it would not need to operate in secret.
MANY people who worked in government and got a closer view of things SAW that something was going on behind the scenes. Some of them, including Nobel prize winners (see below), tried to warn us.
A couple more quotes:
I am convinced that the CFR together with... associated tax-exempt organizations is the invisible government which sets the major policies of the federal government... I am convinced that the objective of this invisible government is to convert America into a socialist [actually Communist] state and then make it a unit in a one-world socialist system.
-- DAN SMOOT, Prof. Harvard, FBI, The Invisible Government.
International Money Power is the most dangerous conspiracy against the freedom of men the world has ever know.
-- FREDERICK SODDY, Professor, Oxford, Nobel Laureate, F.R.S.
Dennis - this topic is funny.
ReplyDeleteThe booklets all the COGs have on the book of Revelation have been plagiarized from WCG which in turn plagiarized it from others.
If they wanted to save money, they could use a common set of source materials, but then they would have to admit there is no real difference between them except for which leaders they are feeding.
If the COGs truly believe their version of Revelation, then the best they can be is the Laodicean church since WCG would have to be the Philadelphian (sorry flurry).
However... could you be in the synagogue of Satan?
7 “To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8 I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9 I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. 10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. 11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name. 13 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
The COGs claim they are Jews, in fact better than the Jews, because only they understand the Bible, and are the descendants of Israel.
By making us into Jews, even though we are not, could this make us into the synagogue of Satan?
Certainly something to be extremely aware of, since as the COGs love to point out - the deceived do not know they are deceived. Could the COGs be the ones actually deceived.
OUCH!!!!
Thanks for another great treatise, Dennis. Herb's nonsense, which he stole from others through crafty picking and choosing scared the figurative crap out of us gullible yokels who had been brainwashed into believing anything in that book was holy and absolute truth and authority. We changed our weekly routines, let our "vacations be dictated to us, accepted dietary nonsense, etc. all out of fear toward a figment of ancient imaginations and crafty concoction by Roman emperors and mad religious conmen. Herb was nothing new. The same thing has been going on for millennia in various guises, some of which people now scoff at as heathen mythological nonsense. Some of us have just gone one mythological nonsense farther.
ReplyDeleteThe classification of the whole book of Revelation as preterism is a giant leap. To claim that the book of Revelation was meant to encourage 69 AD Jewish Christians in the city to hang in for three and a half years is an even bigger leap.
ReplyDeleteMr. Diehl I will give you a free ride with this one because it is my understanding that you are suffering from being Twitterpated. Which is a good thing.
When looking at Revelation 1:1; "things which must shortly come to pass" has been understood by many to have not have a direct (within one year) meaning, but more a when it comes to pass it will happen with quickness and speed. The Greek leaves the door open to this possibility.
If the book of Revelation was meant to be an encouragement to 69 AD Christians then that means death and destruction is encouraging. Revelation 6:10-11 talks about the fellow brethren being KILLED as the ones in heaven were. Revelation 13:7 tells about the Beast making war with the saints and overcoming them. Revelation 12:11 talks about the brethren interacting with the great dragon and not loving their lives unto the end.
If the book of Revelation was meant to be specifically an encouragement to Jewish Christians in Jerusalem, why the inclusion of admonitions to the 7 churches of Asia Minor? The Jewish Christians of Asia Minor wouldn't have a major concern about what was happening in "far away Jerusalem".
Speaking of encouragement or not, Jesus Christ looking into the 7 churches is eye opening. Remember therefore from whence thou are fallen, and repent ...... I will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent is one admonition. He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death is another. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly is another for another church. Behold, I will .... cast them (church members) into the great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds is another warning to another of the churches. These are words from Jesus Christ directly to both Jewish and Gentile Christians outside of Jerusalem to go beyond "hanging in there" to prepare for what is coming.
If Revelation 1:1 and 1:3 are the catalyst for some to putting the whole book of Revelation in the classification of preterism without critical argument, then what one man in a Portland library interpreted would have to be taken at face value. If the Christians solely residing in 69 AD Jerusalem read this book with an understanding that the only theme was they were to hang in there, I would be very surprised.
John was told to write about what he had seen and the things that are and things which shall be hereafter. There is a big body of this book which deals with the coming new world order. I think 69 AD Jerusalem Christians would have understood this book details much more than their coming fate regardless if the big events and the setting of Jerusalem is ground zero in the book.
Is the book of Revelation confined to pre 70 AD only? Is the book of Revelation a 21st Century book? Or is the book of Revelation a predominately 31st Century book? My bet is that much of it takes place much further in time than what the official COG doctrine dictates. And for me until it all happens, I am going to continue to eat and drink and repent.
Considerations when attempting to understand Rev 17:9-18:
ReplyDeleteRevelation is ANE literature which is based on pre-modern exegetical principles.
Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
In the chronological storyline of Revelation the events in 17:9-18 have already taken place; hence Rev 17:1-19:10 is arguably a retro-prospective insert.
From the typology of Joshua and Jericho and Jesus and Jerusalem, the marching around Jericho seven times on the seventh day pictures the seven last plagues of the seventh trumpet. It is after these events that the battles begin.
Jdg 14:14 And he said unto them, Out of the eater came forth meat, and out of the strong came forth sweetness. And they could not in three days expound the riddle.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
“Compare Rev 13:18. As there, the words seem to indicate that “the mind which hath wisdom” will recognise the meaning of the image, though it is obscurely expressed. But the “wisdom” required is not merely the faculty of guessing riddles - it is the wisdom enlightened from above; including however, we may suppose, an intelligent knowledge of the facts and principles of human history” (Cambridge).
Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Da 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
It is suggested that one thing that could be drawn from what appears to be a ‘riddle’ like presentation is that whereas the kingdoms that came out of Alexander’s empire were contemporaneous the kingdoms that come out of the Roman Empire would be successive.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
The beast is both the system and the person who represents the system - cp. the head of gold being the neo-Babylonian Empire and Nebuchadnezzar.
The king of the North is the seventh representative king but after his assassination and resurrection he, the Antichrist, is now “the eighth”.
I would also suggest that Hadrian was the near-future fulfilment of the Beast, providing a type for the future fulfillment:
“When the Roman Emperor Hadrian vowed to rebuild Jerusalem from the wreckage in 130 AD, he considered reconstructing Jerusalem as a gift to the Jewish people” (Wiki); cp. Dan 9:25.
“Initially sympathetic to Judaism, he later swung into hostility... The Roman vengeance was awe-inspiring... Dio says 580,000 Jews died in the fighting 'and countless numbers of starvation, fire and the sword. Nearly the entire land of Judea was laid waste.' In the fourth century, St Jerome reported from Bethlehem a tradition that, after the defeat, there were so many Jewish slaves for sale that the price dropped to less than a horse.
"Hadrian relentlessly carried through to completion his plan to transform ruined Jerusalem into a Greek polis... (Paul Johnson, A History of the Jews, pp.140-3).
The new temple "appears to have contained the statue of Hadrian, of which Christian writers speak... The total paganism of Jerusalem was the fulfilment of a scheme long before attempted by Antiochus Epiphanes. In another respect, too, the measures adopted by Hadrian resembled his" (Schurer, A History of the Jewish Peoples in the Time of Christ, pp.554-55).
Twitterpated. I have not known that word to be used for forty years. I thought it had become extinct.
ReplyDeleteI take a preterist view of prophecy. Some of my observations:
1. Most of but not all of prophecy seems to focus on the tragedy of 70 AD. The Great Tribulation happened in 70 A.D.
2. Type/Anti-type seems to be used as an exegetical tool far too much and without justification by Armstrongists.
3. If you believe that the identity of Israel is the key that unlocks prophecy, you will have a very distorted view of prophecy.
4. The United States is not mentioned in the Bible. Throughout history, great Gentile nations have risen and then passed away without a mention in the Bible. The USA is just another one.
5. The Bible is about the Jews. It is not about Celts and Anglo-Saxons who can be definitively proved via genetics to be no more related to Jews than Black Africans.
6. The people who know the least about prophecy are Millerite churches. Victor Houteff, Herbert Armstrong, David Koresh and all the rest.
7. Millerite interpretation of prophecy is just as lame now as it was in 1844. It is unfortunate that Millerites have used such interpretations to frighten children.
There we go. 7 principles. I don't think I have the patience for 12 or 19 or 40.
Everyone here is ignoring the obvious. For instance,
ReplyDeleteRevelation 9.18 "A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and brimstone..." And the many other plagues mentioned. They didn't happen in the past.
The siege of Jerusalem was a microcosm of a full worldwide fulfillment in the future.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteEveryone here is ignoring the obvious. For instance,
Revelation 9.18 "A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and brimstone..." And the many other plagues mentioned. They didn't happen in the past.
The siege of Jerusalem was a microcosm of a full worldwide fulfillment in the future.
Again, hyperbole typical of apocalyptic literature. I understand the concept of "types" as that is how WCG and many other churches take events in the past which obviously have already occurred or did not work out as predicted and bring those scriptures into our present times. But it is simply rewriting the story of old with modern updates to fit modern circumstances that the original never intended to be done.
A good asteroid strike in just the right place could bring this about but then we'd have to face up to the reality of a deity plucking them from between Mars and Jupiter and throwing rocks at us rather than simply showing up to prove and explain the plan to us nicely and with compassion. A normal plague could also do the trick but attributing it to God and Revelation is not the way to address the why or how of it all.
Dennis said:
ReplyDelete"A normal plague could also do the trick but attributing it to God and Revelation is not the way to address the why or how of it all."
Very true. Also note that the black plague did wipe out 1/3 of Europe, and I'm sure many at the time had reason to assume that Jesus MUST be on his way, but again, nothing. And I don't recall anyone in WCG even arguing that the black plague was foretold somewhere in bible prophecy. It's just another one of those inconvenient things that you're better off glossing over if you want to hold onto your beliefs. God and revelation isn't how to account for it, so I guess they didn't try.
Nobody understands prophecy. Period. The ones who make the loudest claims and spike them with the worst punishments actually know the least.
ReplyDelete