Words of wisdom from the great one...
Herbert Armstrong
Bricket Wood Sermon
May, 1974
From "Get Back on Track"
"And YOU’LL FIND OUT THAT THOSE THAT GO OUT FROM THIS CHURCH, SOONER OR LATER, COME TO THE ONE THING: They’ll say “I DON’T WANT ANY GOVERNMENT OVER ME!” And WHAT GOD DOES WANT IS HIS GOVERNMENT OVER US! THAT’S THE ONLY REASON WE’VE BEEN BORN, BRETHREN!(I CAN’T PUT ENOUGH EMPHASIS IN THAT.)
IF YOU HATE THE GOVERNMENT OF GOD, YOU ARE ON SATAN’S SIDE. GET OVER ON TO SATAN’S SIDE, IF THAT’S WHERE YOU STAND. BUT IF YOU ARE ON GOD’S SIDE, GET OVER HERE ON GOD’S SIDE; AND STAY THERE!"This is why so many of the Churches of God place more emphasis on "government" than they do Jesus. Being able to control every aspect of peoples is more valuable than leading people into grace. Plus, it keeps them obedient to despotic leaders like Flurry, Weinland, and Pack. Sadly, some COG members think they need to be controlled and told what to do. It is much easier and safer for them as they do not have to make theological decisions.
quote courtesy of SHT, comments mine
Laying aside the fact that HWA and associates had a warped view of government, notice how he presented the issue as an either/or proposition. He did this with almost everything. His logic always appealed to two-dimensional thinking. He loved to use the false dilemma - that everything was a choice between two extremes (e.g. You either believe the Bible, or you don't). In the real world, there's a whole lot of space between two extremes. And, more often than not, the TRUTH is found somewhere along that continuum.
ReplyDeleteFinally, even if we were to allow that Herbert's notion of government was not warped and that only two options really did exist, there is abundant evidence that HWA and company were NOT THE representatives of God's government. The notion that an immoral tyrant could be God's representative on earth was just as unappealing/unpersuasive in the Worldwide Church as it was in the Roman Church of the Middle Ages!
ReplyDeleteThe idea of having the “government of God” sounds great in theory.
However, in actual practice, things can sometimes go very badly.
The practical problem in real life is that what people often actually get is in fact satanic imposter cults, like Gerald Flurry's PCG and David Pack's RCG, where perverts get to pass off all of their own satanic abuse as the “government of God.”
Those who really truly do want to submit to the “government of God” should read the laws of God in the Bible, such as the Ten Commandments, and try to obey them properly.
Of course, the false prophets will rant and rave and yell and spit about how you have to drive hundreds of miles in all sorts of weather to attend their nearest congregation in order to listen to a taped sermon of theirs or else you are not really observing the Sabbath. The plain truth, though, is that it is much more restful not to go to listen to those demoniacs. They could not stop lying and stealing if their lives depended on it.
It was always Herbert’s way or Satan’s way. Herbert was always right. No matter what the subject he was right. And if you disagreed with him on anything you were disfellowshipped. You were going to have to go through the tribulation. You would be thrown into a concentration came run by the Germans. Only a few problems! Herb was wrong on about everything. He was a narcissistic ass. Peace to all my brothers and sisters who have left or are in the process of leaving. Gary thanks for the work you do keeping this blog going.
ReplyDeleteJim-AZ
Jesus said ... John 15:15 New International Version (NIV)
ReplyDelete"I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends "
We call Jesus our Brother, and God as our Father.
This is all very intimate, and mature. To toss around a term like "government" is very fascist in tone. Even in marriage, the concept of the man "ruling" the wife, is also not only extremely immature, but impractical too.
The problem with the WCG and the other COGS is that they try to run centrally controlled churches, with centrally controlled finances. The God model is much smaller and local. Small locally gathered groups, and close family relationships. Anything bigger than that will require top down hierarchy, and it just doesn't work in religion.
Believe the bible?
ReplyDeleteMy Facebook says that in the oldest version of the Codex Sinaiticus in the oldest gospel of mark, the last chapter about jesus resurection is not present.
Neither does Luke speak about "the Ascenscion".
It seems the Armstrongs had a "gutfeel" about early christianity being more of the judaistic type.
Of course Muhammed was more succesful than hwa in emphasizing jesus' prophethood and establishing a hugely popular religion based on that idea and "submission" to a last revelation.
The Iranian regime takes the idea of the "return" of the messiah too far by concentrating political power on that idea and some "last battle" in the northern syrian plain.
My point.
The written canon seems to be a development and revelations have been pouring in by interesting people with ideas. In the 1880's there was that preacher from India. I believe he has 10 of million followers still based on the concept that jesus was born in India.
Nck
There should be a healthy respect for biblical government. That HWA used the chose one or another, God or Satan concerning government was actually a good way to frame the choice for a contemplative person to make.
ReplyDeleteAll through the years in the WCG I never heard HWA elaborate on what is indeed true church government. It was always you have to follow the government (his) or no Kingdom or salvation.
Who would have ever thought that after having experienced the myriad of poor examples of conduct by those in power supposedly in the one true church with the one true government, that true church government is rather simplistic.
Leaders or ministers that are servants edifying the body (members). That is the template, that is the process and that is the biblical instruction. It is not leaders edifying themselves in every imaginable way with self proclaiming themselves biblical characters. It is ministers not lording it over the membership. It is not coercing every last dime out of the membership. It is not casting out members at will. It is not breaking families apart. The list goes on and on.
If you are in a COG that believes government is everything, it is time to pause and think. If you are in a COG that teaches you have to believe and obey everything the leader teaches, it is really time to pause and think. What needs to be brought to the forefront of your mind is, what does Satan's government look like? Or more accurately, How would Satan's church operate if it was a literal corporate entity?
HWA essentially offered two choices with only one flawed example for the right choice. God spoke unto the children of Israel and offered them two legitimate choices on the precipice of entering the promised land: I have set before the life and good, and death and evil. Two choices tied directly to God's government then, just as it will be in the future when the Kingdom arrives.
Government Tyranny in the COGs is of death and evil. If leader/minister A, B, C, and D is not laying their lives down for their membership it is of death and evil. True Godly government can be considered everything and something to look forward to. Right now, what does the average COG member look at? Is it life and good or death and evil?
Do I "hate the government of God?" Absolutely, and with a passion. And "I don't want government over me?" Yes again. Why? Because HWA is lying through his teeth. It's not the "government of God" at all, but rather the traditions of men. It is in violation of Gods will and His many instructions in the bible. Herb is like the Pharisees who put the Sabbath before peoples lives. But instead of the Sabbath, it's government. As Christ pointed out, man wasn't made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath for man. Or as the American declaration of independence puts it, "to secure these rights" of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, human governments are instituted. If one examines the OT, it's the only role that God gave to the kings of Israel.
ReplyDeleteThe truth that HWA hid from the church is that people are (drum role please) SELF GOVERNING. It's there in the parable of the talents. Mother nature tells this to people as well. And just like animal trainers, Herb and his minions have to keep repeating this brainwashing, least a reversion to the natural mean occurs. The first minister I had, gave a sermon on government about every third Sabbath.
And the reason for this? It nullifies the parable of the talents. It robs members of the ability to grow. It's Cain versus Abel with biblical window dressing. In the eyes of Herb and his minions, it freezes the social order, guaranteeing that the ministers get the top positions in the kingdom.
The above quote from HWA is a restatement of his frequent "government is everything," which Herb defender Nck has claimed here to not be true.
The book that's considered the classic on this topic is "The discovery of freedom" by Rose Wilder Lane. It's free on line, and can be downloaded in PDF format. I read a post recently where the author claimed that he has read over a thousand books, and he puts Roses book in the top three.
8:52
ReplyDeleteI do believe the genesis admonishment, " i have set before you......therefore CHOOSE life", as a personal choice about standards to adhere to and each and every other human being as a teacher and coach for good or bad, including you.
HWA was amongst other things honorary "professor of constitutional law" through a 100.000 grant (by you and my freewill gifts) at the I believe UCLA.
If you study the researchpapers that sponsored "chair" produced, they are among the most lasting influential academia in order to preserve your treasured constitutional rights.
THAT IS THE LENSE AND STANDARD I SEE HWA through (the actual works of the church body), not what some twat splinter minister is currently trying to steal or enforce as a petty theory on moons or common.
Nck
I will by the way take a look at Rose's book.
ReplyDeleteI just love Laura and Almanzo, perhaps also influenced by the freckled contemporary!
nck
Nck
ReplyDeleteSince you missed it, rights were taboo in Herbs WWCOG, as is still the case in the splinters. In his church, only the ministers had rights, with members acting exclusively by permission. Everything the members did, was because they had a informal permission slip from a minister to do so. Adults being treated like children is degrading.
I suggest you evaluate people by their fruits rather than by some paid for honorary title.
Nck
ReplyDeleteSince you missed it, rights were taboo in Herbs WWCOG, as is still the case in the splinters. In his church, only the ministers had rights, with members acting exclusively by permission. Everything the members did, was because they had a informal permission slip from a minister to do so. Adults being treated like children is degrading.
I suggest you evaluate people by their fruits rather than by some paid for honorary title.
nck said: “Believe the bible? My Facebook says that in the oldest version of the Codex Sinaiticus in the oldest gospel of mark, the last chapter about jesus resurection is not present.”
ReplyDeleteCheck out the TBS article that imo proves oldest doesn’t necessarily mean least corrupt: https://www.tbsbibles.org/resource/collection/156A9AA2-2086-4C4E-BE0A-08A4508415DA/The-Last-Twelve-Verses-of-Mark-16.pdf
HWA had it right in his 1939 Good News Article.... Small local autonomy. Read it for yourself!
ReplyDeletehttps://hwarmstrong.com/history/wcghistory/coworker-letters/390200.html
Thanks to most for their good comments.
ReplyDeleteBrother Nck, you are an enigma. I'm not sure how you can in any way give credence to HWA's constitutional analysis.
Also,if I'm reading your post as intended, I fail to see evidence of Armstrong's teachings being more excessive than what was actually practiced within the "church" body, quite the contrary really. While some of the splinters are more dictatorial seemingly than WCG. They all follow the false and controlling lead of HWA.
WATT, I am curious about your specific beliefs on what constitutes this Godly government of which you speak. Was Able, Noah, Abraham, Ancient Israel during the judges period under the government you speak of. Was John the Baptist, was Polycarp?
Even Moses had less hierarchy than HWA and even less control.
Miller Jones your comments about HWA's false dichotomies are much on point and helpful.
ReplyDeleteSHT,
ReplyDeleteThis sermon of HWA's sounds familiar, and I may have listened to it previously.
Is this the one where he explains that Bricket Wood was originally meant to be for "Negroes only", and him throwing a tantrum about whites and blacks dancing together at Pasadena AC, and him screaming something like, "AND YOU CAN GO TO THE LAKE OF FIRE IF YOU WANT TO!" to anyone who thought otherwise?
8:59
ReplyDeleteI don't see those quotes in the transcript of this particular message. However, this would be a sermon I'd love to find either the audio or transcript of. It sounds very "Herbertish" of him to say, because he has often used the Lake of Fire as a place he wishes the "ones he still loves" to go and be, as he said in a transcript I just recently read, "ashes under his feet".
Oh, I should add that in the sermon I referenced, Herbert also yelled things like, "SATAN'S WAY IS THE WAY OF INTEGRATION!", and, "GOD'S WAY IS THE WAY OF SEGREGATION!"
ReplyDeleteThe time seems right for this being the same sermon, and he was quite wound up about getting the church "back on the track" and yelling about the perceived evil and motives he imagined in integrated relationships.
If you ever find which sermon this is, I’d super appreciate if you’d link it or tell me where to find it!
DeleteI think this is the sermon in question:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.hwalibrary.com/cgi-bin/get/hwa.cgi?action=getsermon&InfoID=1334062121
Race relations were always an enigma to HWA.
ReplyDelete