I learned about 13 you couldn't trust church kids. Never knew who would betray you. I got ratted on twice by people I thought were friends. Thought I had a good church friend once. He came over for a week-long stay at our house. During his stay, I found a discarded Playboy magazine in a dumpster. We took in the woods for about an hour looking at all the pictures then threw it back in the dumpster.
He went back home after Sabbath services. Sunday morning all hell broke loose at our home. My "friend" told his dad who called the pastor. A full Pastor rank minister was on his way to our house. I sat at the end of the kitchen table. Dad sat at the other end. The pastor stood near me.
He said, lying to him was the same as lying to Christ. He then began the 20-minute sexual inquisition. Some of the questions: Did I masturbate after viewing the porn? Had I discussed the mag with any other church kids? If so, who? Have I ever had sex with anybody at church or school?
After, the inquisition ended he told me I needed to fast one day the following week. Also, I was to spend the rest of the day in ardent prayer asking God's forgiveness and reading the bible, and then he dismissed me to my bedroom.
A few minutes later dad came in tore the whole room apart looking for porn mags then horsewhipped me then told me to put the room back in order and continue on with my Bible Study.
At age 14 my parents bought me a small radio for my Feast gift. I met a nice church girl at the pool one evening. She was from a different area. The pool was getting ready to close so we sit and talked for a few minutes. I asked her if she liked Rock music? Some songs are OK, she said. I put the radio on a Rock station and listened to 5 or 6 songs. I had a 10:30 pm curfew so had to head back to the room. So, turned off the radio then we both headed to our rooms.
About an hour later her parents came knocking on our door waking us up. They reported that I had played Rock music at the pool. Their daughter was hysterical with fear when she came back to the room. She said, my whole countenance had changed. I was almost beast like she was afraid I would force myself on her. She began to pray silently to God for her protection.
It was agreed I would apologize for this Rock transgression. So, we walked to their room where the victim of my beastly attack resided. I apologized. She stood there downcast with teary eyes and whined out; "you knew it was sinful!"
Back at the room, dad went on another roll. Of course, another horsewhipping was in order. Dad, then explained how demons wrote Rock music. The rhythm was cleverly designed to manipulate the male and female sex organs. It could produce an orgasm even without touching. Sometimes demons will engage in sex acts with Rockers while they are dancing. We could have lost total control of ourselves down by the pool. My radio was taken away for six months.
I kept to myself afterward. Keeping my pie hole shut and didn't share too much of life with anyone. I had zero interest in going to teen dances or activities. The only ones I went to were mandated by the threat of a spanking by my dad. I felt totally alone at this point in my life. No worldly friends, no church friends, and no relatives.
submitted by Mogen David
I think that "more than a few" ministers need to be "horsewhipped" for all the "boners" that they deliberately illicited for themselves, with illicit sexual inquiry questions to both underaged single people, dating couples, married couples, and people going thru divorces too.
ReplyDeleteVoyeuristic prurient, freaky weirdos were many of the ministers and members too.
unfortunately this sort of things happens amongst the adults too.
ReplyDeletepeople that you think are very close friends will turn on you in a heartbeat if they find out you don't agree with them on some point of doctrine.
it's really sad.
always remember, not everyone AT Church is IN The Church.
I thought I was the only one with a life like that. I’m so sorry for the unspeakable abuse you had to go through. I know some of what you went through, my circumstances were as severe but a little different. The total brokenness you experienced,I experienced too. Even now I struggle with feelings of worthlessness and despair. When I feel that way, I know it’s a lie and to not believe that lie. I’m so sorry.
ReplyDeleteThe Armstrongs, and therefore by proxy their minister hirelings, project on to others what they themselves are actually doing.
ReplyDeleteSex are constantly on the minds of Armstrongite ministers.
So we have Herbert Armstrong who based the preponderance of evidence (Civil standard less than Criminal standard) committed incest with daughter Dorothy. And of course, heir apparent, "America's Playboy Preacher" Garner Ted Armstrong - "In Bed with Garner Ted" - having sex with 200 some Ambassador College Coeds and Church members when he wasn't busy telling America how immoral it is on the World Tomorrow radio and television programs.
So Moen, you now know "the rest of the story" many decades later. You horsewhipping was the result of The Armstrongs, and therefore by proxy their minister hirelings, projecting on to YOU (even though you are innocent and didn't) what they themselves were actually doing.
Richard
Children of the church were copying what they saw their parents do. It's what they learned was right.
ReplyDeleteI must comment on the story of the girl who had what seemed to be a complete panic attack when she heard Rock Music and saw "his entire countenance change", and went into hysterics. This was a girl who seemed to be filled from head to toe with fear. The fact she was afraid he would "force himself on her" is also extremely indicative of possible abuse she was suffering at home. The Impact on Armstrongism was so brutally and purely toxic to those who were born into the regime because of the double dose of parents and ministry. To those who say these were isolated incidents, I say wake up. This happened repeatedly and often all over the place.
Fear of Whippings. Fear of demons. Fear of this, fear of that. Can you imagine the constant fear of some awful demon coming to attack you just for hearing rock music as a child? It wasn't just rock music, though. Parents and ministry used fear of demonic attack on children and teens to force obedience to church rules and parental instruction. "If you do this, you'll be fine, but if you do that, you're inviting demons". Where was Jesus? Oh yeah, in the WCG, he was powerless, sitting up on the throne with the Father, watching the demons run amok in the church at the slightest provocation. This is the environment those who grew up in the Church grew up with. Spiritual abuse to the utmost.
Here are 2 more "DAVE PACK VIDEOS" he is chastising poor people in rcg for not giving sooner.
ReplyDeletethe second is he is proving himself s liar again.
Please continue to expose this fraud. Thanks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvpxgTsm1-I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v8Kqlq0NwE
My first minister (still active) in the 1970s approached me demanding that I don't "offend" people. No specific event, or person mentioned. Obviously hiding the complainers name. This happened a second time, this time calling me a "disaster area." Again no person or event or specific sin mentioned. My true offence? Disagreeing with people. Bullies hate it when one disagrees with them.
ReplyDeleteSo if you are a minister bootlicker, you can use your minister as a club against anyone who says "but that can't be right." What happened to the bibles "if your brother sins, go to him privately etc?" What happened to being able to confront ones accuser?
This is the stuff of dictatorships, knocks on the front door by the secret police, no trial or specific crime/s mentioned.
And when HWAs church fell apart, it was all Joe Ts fault. It had nothing to do with the church culture. Yeah right.
'Ratting' on people was the norm as well as gossiping about people in a destructive way, when it came to conforming to the WCG. The environment often brought out the self-righteousness in people....and it also brought out some super, duper hypocrisy, as we all know by now.
ReplyDeletePainful memories to be sure, but as we get older and understand more, we can put those memories in the proper perspective. Most of the crap we went through was just that - meaningless crap.
Ain't it the truth, ain't it the truth?
ReplyDeleteI have been independent for over 25 years, but when my kids got in their teens I wanted them to be around kids their own age who believed similarly, so I called the local UCG company man to make sure I'd be welcome if I attended the UCG congregation 4 miles from my house. I even told him that I was independent and believed that organizations divided God's church. He said sure as long as I didn't "cause trouble".
Everything was fine for about five years, my kids made lifelong friends who are now split between UCG and COGWA but they (all the friends) don't allow the orgs. to ruin their friendship.
The adults however, who we had gotten close to, when a rift came between the man in charge and myself, and I was told that I was no longer welcome, ruined the friendship with false accusations.
Later they apologized (since their kids and mine remained friends) and we accepted, but the friendship has never been the same.
As I said, organizations divide.
Now for the few idiots on this blog to try to blame me for the rift with the man in charge.
Go ahead, I don't give a damn!
WCG was never the voice of reason and moderation. Their chief modus operandi was always overkill, no matter what the problem or topic. And, that was always sold and resold as being God’s way. One either accepted the entire package, or one was out.
ReplyDeleteOne more sad aspect could be added to Mogen David’s narrative. And that is the version told by the ratter was nearly always accepted as the truth. There was no correcting the ratter’s story, no matter how badly he or she had bungled the details. Learning the actual truth had nothing to do with the situation. That should have informed all of us as to the integrity of the Armstrong system. Me? I just tried to fly below the radar, and not allow others to become close. It is a shame to have to treat one’s alleged spiritual guides and iron sharpeners in that way, but that was one of the unfortunate realities of Armstrongism.
BB
One of the more destructive tools in the HWA toolbox was the use of 'demons' as a threat or a way to control.
ReplyDeleteIt is appalling to be used against anyone, but to use it against children is especially damning.
8:03
ReplyDeleteI thought it was just one odd duck, then another, Tonto.
You're so right... was a flock of intrusive "Voyeuristic prurient, freaky weirdos"
BB@10:13am
ReplyDeleteYou are 100% correct, based on my experience.
I remember how people used to go on and on about this thing called "conversion."
ReplyDeleteThere's no such thing as "conversion." People are people, and that's it. We are born how we are, and that's the basics of what we've got to work with. Some people are born idealistic, others pragmatic. Some are greedy, ambitious, egotistical narcissists by nature, while others are caretakers. Some have big minds and big hearts, while others have pathological emotional deficits. Not saying that the average person can't turn over a new leaf, but it's not easy, and when someone does, they deserve all the credit for it.
Bottom line, there's no supernatural force modifying people for the better (and fortunately, no supernatural forces modifying us for the worse, either!)
Joining an organization isn't going to change your personality or your basic instincts. Joining AA might help you manage your compulsions for alcohol, because that's their reason for existing. Signing up with a church might possibly help you manage a criminal compulsion? I've known a few people with complusions like that. Despite its promises to cure such compulsions via "conversion," Jesus won't do any such thing. The catholic church doesn't cure its pedophiles, and neither does Armstrongism.
Eventually I realized that I don't owe the fact that I'm a moral person to Jesus or having been raised in a church. It's not my basic instinct to be an asshole, and I began to object to the purity culture that pushed me to be judgy and intolerant at times, because later I'd reflect upon that behavior with recrimination.
I wasn't the sort of person who needed religion in the first place. I don't have any compulsion to drink to excess, so it was like if I was born into AA, and told that if I left, without a sponsor, without going to AA meetings, I'd become a raging alcoholic. Bullshit. In fact, not only was church not making a better person, its influence, through its purity culture, was pushing me to be worse. There might be others who really need to belong to a church to help them manage immoral compulsions, but not me.
I was never converted. I was never cured of any unhealthy compulsions. I was always this way. Not a substance abuser, not an judgy asshole, and not a criminal. That's just who I am, and I don't need any help to be that. Maybe I'm lucky, or maybe I'm just within the realm of normal in that respect. I'm not perfect, just not the depraved person who the church told me I'd be without them. But just because I'm not, that doesn't mean everyone else is like me.
If people who have compulsions for alcohol are concentrated at AA meetings, maybe people who have compulsions for immoral behaviors are concentrated at church meetings. These people are not cured of their unhealthy compulsions and the internal pressure to revert to their basic instinct will always be there, regardless of how many decades they might have been "in the church." So am I surprised to hear that people have terrible experiences at church? Not a bit. I had plenty of terrible experiences of my own with church people too. Now I'm wise enough to understand why.
If you're new in town and you're a drug addict, and you want to find out where to buy your next hit of an illegal drug, find an NA meeting. If you're looking for people with compulsions to be immoral in all sorts of ways, find a church. If that's not who you want to associate with, maybe you should think about staying away!
Didn't the WCG preach, "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good."? Are we not to charge someone unless there are at least two witnesses? Doesn't proverbs say that everyone's story appears true until you hear the other side? The WCG was so very selective in what passages they wanted to use to support their actions. But, if you can ignore I Tim 3 and allow people like GTA and other to become leaders, you can do just about anything else you want.
ReplyDelete@8:37am
ReplyDeleteWhen I attended my first Passover service at the age of 11, the 'minister' had me and a 6-week old baby throw out of the hall because the baby was crying.
Unfortunately, I got collared to take care of this tiny baby in the ladies room and when I was changing the cloth diaper (I was only 11 and never changed a diaper before), I stuck the pin in the baby, which made the baby scream at the top of its lungs.
Well, this 23 year old 'minister', fresh out of Ambassador College, was absolutely outraged that someone could go defy his orders and bring a baby to this most solemn of occasions. No one, but no one, was going to disturb HIS Passover service!
Before I knew it, I was stumbling around in the parking lot in the dark - in a city - with a screaming baby and diaper bag - no coat by the way since there was no time to get it - looking for an open car. Fortunately I found one with an older girl babysitting her younger sister.
Just another example of how extreme these fraudulent 'ministers' could be and how they could influence their congregations.
1:23 said
ReplyDelete"If you're looking for people with compulsions to be immoral in all sorts of ways, find a church. If that's not who you want to associate with, maybe you should think about staying away!"
---------
Well, except for you, of course, and if it's remotely possible, any moral members/ministers such as yourself.
(But point taken...with exceptions)
I expect many children brought up entrapped in the _cult_, were not needing to ponder their potential criminality, etc.
Also, not all _churches_ draw malignant narcissists to lead.
I had similar problems with a couple of church kids growing up . I think it was just the environment that was fostered and the parents were expected to uphold it. If another child could rat on another even though they were involved themselves with the same activity whatever it was, it somehow got them kudos at home.
ReplyDeleteI remember when I was about 13, I was having problems at home. I decided to confide in one of my friends at the time, and the first thing out of his mouth was that he needed to tell the ministry, that they should know about it. I immediately started to backtrack because it could have been horrible for my whole family.
Thankfully nothing was said and I remained friends with this kid. Really the smart thing to do is just to keep your mouth shut around other church brats and dont get in trouble if you want stay off the ministries radar.
3:49 PM - what happened to you was terrible and also criminal in putting a child and a baby in danger. Unfortunately, most of us were too brainwashed to object to such inhumane treatment. Even if we did not approve, we kept our mouths shut.
ReplyDeleteIt is a pity our schools do not teach about the pros and cons of persuasion plus critical thinking.
@10:19am
ReplyDeleteThank you so much, TLA - I don't want to distract from Mogen David's experience, which is so awful and is the focus here.
I just felt my experience could help demonstrate the extreme behaviors many people adopted in responding to what they were being taught from the pulpit.
Fear drove a lot of those behaviors and no one can separate the degree of manipulation that was part of the story. In this case, it was fear from disobeying the minister and the possible repercussions.
I Have been out of HWA's influence for quite some time but every once in a great while, and it isn't often, I reconnect with my past. It helps to find tune the perspective. The benefit of having done it this time is I can finally appreciate the efforts over the years that people have made to reveal the real truth and to protect people from further abuses.
There have been quite a few courageous people over the years, who have come forward to enlighten people and I am so grateful for that.
There are so many ways I am blessed - and it is always a blessing when someone validates your experience.
Thank you for that.
Virtual hugs to you!