I am the “young man” in this video, David. While I appreciate the comments about my youth I want to make it clear that I am in my 30s and was born into the church a decade before the split, around the time of HWA’s death. My mother (born 1950) had been well indoctrinated into the church since the early 50s and my father joined as an adult in the late 60s (born in 1940). The WCG forced my dad to leave behind his military career after 15 years of service and two tours in Vietnam, just five years short of retirement, ruining his career. The church experience drove my mother into a state of manic depression after her best friend shot herself, having been forced to divorce her husband when the ministers discovered he had been married once before her. They had three children. My mother is now a dependent of the state and a psychotropic drug addict. She spends her days in a Xanax and Lithium induced haze and can’t remember what we talked about yesterday. My dad was an orphan who was sold into literal slavery on a ranch in Sulfur Oklahoma by the Baptist Children’s Home in OKC after his mother shot herself during the final years of the Great Depression. The church preyed on his lack of education and desire to fit in after being tossed aside by his family and physically abused by his drunk adopted father. My family is made up of abused and damaged people and they were taken advantage of by the fear mongering of Herbert W. Armstrong’s teachings.
When I began questioning the church as a teen I had delusions for around a year where I was convinced that a demon was talking to me and trying to trick me into leaving, as the church ministers had told us as children that demons followed us and watched our every move, reporting our actions to Satan and looking for an opportunity to possess us should we deviate from the church. I didn’t admit verbally for nearly two years that I questioned the teachings for fear that I would be attacked by demons. I am in my mid 30s and still can’t sleep without a light on in my home because the pitch dark makes me feel like something is closing in on me and suffocating me. Can you imagine growing up in childhood feeling like you’re under angry celestial surveillance 24/7? If you grew up in this church I’m sure you relate. I’ve been through therapy and counseling, anger management, had the police called on me by my family because they thought I was being rebellious against god when I lashed out in anger. The person you saw being interviewed in this video is who I am now and while I freely acknowledge that generations before me had it worse because of the era they grew up in, make no mistake that the environment I was brought up in was forged out of the worst era of the church. And when the split happened in 95 my mother’s entire family bitterly left and joined the splinter groups while my immediate family stayed and fought over what to do. Fortunately, my dad had the sense to leave the church and allow me to leave with him as a teen. That’s what saved me, but as I said, I struggled through my teens and twenties to end up a functioning adult. And I will speak out against the church again. This was just the beginning.
I can relate to so much of his experience, although he came from what I would call a "Liberal-Fundamental" structure. Mine was "Fundamental-Fundamental" in the growing up experience. Every experience growing up is different, but has the same core elements and the same core "Fallout" that all of us can relate to.
ReplyDeleteThe undercurrent he spoke of was real, but it wasn't just birthdays. The "don't tell the Church" orders from the parents to the kids varied from family to family, and in some cases, it was far worse than birthdays. In other cases, it was even more liberal. This young man's honesty and the interviewer's questioning was very good.
I hope more youth and young adults continue to speak out and reveal the truth about the entire Worldwide Experience, and the true level of psychological damage that the movement caused through the entire neurological spectrum.
If you are reading, you two, good interview.
It just frosts the butt's of the various splinter cult leaders that the youth are speaking up about being dragged into the cult by their parents and now reject the lies of the church. Parents who drag their kids into these blasphemous cults never stop to consider how damaging their actions are to their children.
ReplyDeleteA couple random remarks. First of all, John Trechak, David Robinson, and Bruce Renehan are probably up there in Dissdent Heaven smiling over this video.
ReplyDeleteSecond, you can tell that these kids are good, well-intentioned, and responsible, and certainly not hard-core in any way. Their demeanor and intelligence means that they can reach people in ways that angry, rebellious types could not.
As a perfectionist, and as a joking nod to “Dr.” Bobby Thiel, I do have to note that some of the segments of the artwork on the wall are slightly crooked, not gapped uniformly, and uneven in their heights. But unlike in the case of Bummer Bob, the quality and content of the presentation more than compensate for this.
Amazingly, in spite of being raised by liberal church members, there was enough wrong left in the church experience to still make Armstongism an intolerable and intellectually dishonest cult. Again, this is a cult which cannot be reformed. Even the reformed and largely Protestant group has retained noticeably cultic characteristics.
Excellent, excellent job, guys! You’ve earned the coveted BB seal of approval!
BB
nck 1)
ReplyDeleteNice people. As this blogs "Self appointed future administrator of one of the derelict counties of Tattooine far far away from the action" I do aprove of the ladies t-shirt.
I can relate to much of what the male says being raised in similar environment. Although at first I though he was too young to have experienced WCG at all.
I too remember reading up on "Armstrongism" at age 11 at the "religion section" of the local library. As the only source available was in the "Book on Cults (chapter following "Children of God"," I recall concluding, that yes indeed I was part of a cult, according to the books definition, however I concluded it was a nice cult since we got to watch movies and eat nicely during the Feast and not sweat in the jungle of Guyana drinking designated drinks. Then I would proceed to put the Plain Truth Magazine back in its place and fold it neatly for the public readers.
Only in and after high school did I learn how a company should be run by management!
At age 6 I would harangue my mom with questions why HWA was not mentioned in our Encyclopedia at home, since other World Leaders like Jomo Kenyatta and Mao Zedong had entire sections dedicated to them.
A recurring question would be IF we would eat pork if our plane to the Feast would somehow collapse into the mountains far far away and the PanAm girls would not serve meals anymore.
nck 2)
ReplyDeleteAnyway, the male mentions that he had problems relating to "Christians" in school and that it was him versus mainstream. In my circumstance the mention of exercising religious beliefs at all, would have been frowned upon as ridiculous and irrational and all our literature classes and obligated reading would contain literature by writers distancing themselves from their religious upbringing in the fifties and sixties. I never explained why I wouldn't go to theater to see the homosexual singer with my class and every monday listened with a smile to the one religious guy (as far as I knew) in my class relating how he had flirted with the other teenage girls during song service last sunday.
My acts of rebellion started at age 13 when at "bible topics quiz" our director pastor would ask in front of all proud parents who had enjoyed SEP. Although I really really had enjoyed the experience in an act of defiance I did as only person not raise my finger since I had not enjoyed the preaching about people of different races to not fully engage with each other as kids should. My science magazine told quite another story on what constituted a human being or a race. Later the pastor would ask my mother as he had been flabbergasted, I would explain and my lovely mother would understand.
This same director/pastor would later preach a sermon on my experience as a (young) staff member at SEP. On my application form I had sollicited to serve at certain activities but got assigned an entirely different activity unexpectedly. The sermon was about "how we would be into some surprises in the World Tomorrow and that God had unexpected plans for us.)
I guess it was his cultural sensitive way of making good or apologizing.
In my circumstance my grandparents were "enemies of the church in good standing". Since the experiences of WWII had forged immediate bonds of respect and mutual experiences between some of our church Elders and my time and energy consuming grandfather, regardless on their respective understanding about "counting three days from Jesus death on the cross" or if an "apostle should dignify slaughtering dictators with a visit or speak highly of Pik Botha."
Our family relationship suffered greatly under my grandfathers "rescuing attempts", but church elders never advised against visiting them until after a mistaken newspaper interview for which he was profoundly sorry when my parents severed ties, although I never did since my demeanor as a teenager has always been more like the kids in the video.
I am not very emotional about what a person decides to believe. And have engaged nicely with the Shia converts praying in the Shia shrine in Damascus or discussed the Council of Chalcedon with the Coptic monk in Egypt. All wishing me peace along my travels although they might find me a strange fellow unable to be entangled and trapped in any web of belief or system. I really learned from that nice person answering the Pharisees who challenged by saying: "then throw the first stone.......", or "turn the other cheek", while at the same time smashing the tables of the idol sellers.
The reason all brains are wired differently is that no experience is the same.
nck
One of WCG teachings was that a person who is deceived does not know they are deceived.
ReplyDeleteWhen you are one of the deceived you don’t think you are damaging your family, you are helping them.
If you read history, this is the human condition. We have to be aware and fight ourselves to be rational.
John 6:44
ReplyDeleteI was raised in the worlds largest cult, the Catholic Church. I went to Catholic grade school for 8 years and was totally deceived by women in "bad habits". The bizarre customs and stories and completely "pagan" indoctrination left me thinking that God was 'weird". My world was filled with lighted candles, statues, paintings of people with a sick look on their face and a halo around their heads, endless chanting of Our Father and Hail Mary's. The Bible was never opened.
ReplyDeleteYes WWC was run as cult by ego driven leaders, but much of the theology (not Petra and the fear religion to gain members) was correct and made a lot more sense the Catholicism. The teachings on the immortal soul, pagan holidays, the Sabbath, the Plan of God shown in the Holy Days, the God Family (rather than the Trinity) makes sense compared to the "main Steam" Christianity.
Yes the human "leadership" was deeply flawed, but flawed people are everywhere.
WCGs theology was as morally and spiritually bankrupt as its human leader was. WCG doctrine was NOT correct. Members suffered under some of the evilest men in the church who all masqueraded around as God's most important mouthpieces. They lied, they stole, they abused and they swindled members out of money. There is not one single COG minister alive today that deserves respect. That respect will only come when they publicly acknowledge that they were wrong and that they supported lying church leaders.
ReplyDeleteAnon 9:54 "WCG doctrine was NOT correct"
ReplyDeleteThis is like the lib haters calling Trump a racist, but can't give a specific example.
Just name one doctrine and explain why its not biblical. Every time this challenge has been offered here,zero response, except to ridicule me which doesn't bother me at all, knowing your mind is clouded with hate.
Excellent discussion! I like the answer that David gave about the reason why the WCG isn't really spoken about anymore, and how they discussed the documentary “Called to be Free” and their feedback to that video. I especially liked how David mentioned how the WCG and the Armstrong Cults split families. In contrast to David though, after I left the LCG cult I too questioned everything, however in my research I was convinced that God has provided more than enough evidence to reasonably infer that He exists, and that what is written in the Holy Bible and the claims of Christianity is true.
ReplyDelete9:36
ReplyDeleteWwcg was flawed in most of their doctrines, if not all. They left Jesus out of the picture as though He never came the first time. With the onset of the new covenant, the old covenant was finished and gone. The new laws of love came into being. I agree with 9:54. So sorry you suffered, as we did, only differently.
Anon wants a list of false doctrines - here are a few to start:
ReplyDeleteBritish Israel - DNA debunks this.
7 times prophecy is not a prophecy - the 7 times are repeated multiple times in Leviticus to show escalating punishment.
Ezekiel watchman commission - this is not part of Jesus' instructions to His followers.
Explaining away scriptures they do not like - like the dead Samuel speaking to Saul.
In Revelation - the souls beheaded asking for vengeance.(Rev 6v9)
I am the “young man” in this video, David. While I appreciate the comments about my youth I want to make it clear that I am in my 30s and was born into the church a decade before the split, around the time of HWA’s death. My mother (born 1950) had been well indoctrinated into the church since the early 50s and my father joined as an adult in the late 60s (born in 1940). The WCG forced my dad to leave behind his military career after 15 years of service and two tours in Vietnam, just five years short of retirement, ruining his career. The church experience drove my mother into a state of manic depression after her best friend shot herself, having been forced to divorce her husband when the ministers discovered he had been married once before her. They had three children. My mother is now a dependent of the state and a psychotropic drug addict. She spends her days in a Xanax and Lithium induced haze and can’t remember what we talked about yesterday. My dad was an orphan who was sold into literal slavery on a ranch in Sulfur Oklahoma by the Baptist Children’s Home in OKC after his mother shot herself during the final years of the Great Depression. The church preyed on his lack of education and desire to fit in after being tossed aside by his family and physically abused by his drunk adopted father. My family is made up of abused and damaged people and they were taken advantage of by the fear mongering of Herbert W. Armstrong’s teachings.
ReplyDeleteWhen I began questioning the church as a teen I had delusions for around a year where I was convinced that a demon was talking to me and trying to trick me into leaving, as the church ministers had told us as children that demons followed us and watched our every move, reporting our actions to Satan and looking for an opportunity to possess us should we deviate from the church. I didn’t admit verbally for nearly two years that I questioned the teachings for fear that I would be attacked by demons. I am in my mid 30s and still can’t sleep without a light on in my home because the pitch dark makes me feel like something is closing in on me and suffocating me. Can you imagine growing up in childhood feeling like you’re under angry celestial surveillance 24/7? If you grew up in this church I’m sure you relate. I’ve been through therapy and counseling, anger management, had the police called on me by my family because they thought I was being rebellious against god when I lashed out in anger. The person you saw being interviewed in this video is who I am now and while I freely acknowledge that generations before me had it worse because of the era they grew up in, make no mistake that the environment I was brought up in was forged out of the worst era of the church. And when the split happened in 95 my mother’s entire family bitterly left and joined the splinter groups while my immediate family stayed and fought over what to do. Fortunately, my dad had the sense to leave the church and allow me to leave with him as a teen. That’s what saved me, but as I said, I struggled through my teens and twenties to end up a functioning adult. And I will speak out against the church again. This was just the beginning.
We look forward to more of your speaking out! The various Churches of God cannot stand their younger members going against them and it pisses them off. The internet has become the downfall of the Churches of God, thanks to you and many others who woke up and tasted freedom!
ReplyDeleteAwesome, David. It's nice to have an opportunity to congratulate you in person, for an excellent and very significant interview, and to commend your courage. I believe that it was the optimist in many of us that would have liked to believe that the Armstrong movement, as it matured, or at least aged, produced more light weight experiences in its later days. However, in spite of somewhat liberal ("don't tell the church!") parents, your experiences were not at all lightweight. Sometimes emotional and intellectual abuse are far more intense than physical abuse and the pain involved. Good on you for getting out, and awesome job of recovering, and becoming the person you are today.
ReplyDeleteI certainly look forward to hearing more from you! Please do share!
BB
David,
ReplyDeleteYou've definitely been through it, and I need to tell you that I can absolutely relate to you with the fear aspects. I as well grew up with an abnormal fear of demons, because that's what my dad spoke about constantly in my very young and formative years. I remember clearly thinking that everything that happened when I was very young was the result of demons. So I can absolutely confirm 100 percent the reality and the truth of what you are saying. You are spot on, and I greatly appreciate your testimony!!!
I also want to say, if you were offended because I called you a "young man", I sincerely apologize. I had a hunch you were somewhere in your thirties, but boy, let me tell you, your family has good genes when it comes to appearances! So again, accept my apologies.
I echo NO2HWA and look forward eagerly to hearing more of your stories. You and I share a common experience on our childhood in fear. Thanks so much for speaking out and being a voice in speaking out against cults and abuse. We need more of you!
Haha. No apology necessary. I didn’t take it negatively. I just wanted to open up a little more with viewers. It’s hard to cover everything in one session and I had a lot more I wished I could have said. I tried to get as much info as I could without it just being a rant that only church members would understand. I want to spread awareness of the cult. In the future I will talk more with the host, Atom about my more terrible experiences to hopefully put the cult’s practices in the public.
DeleteDavid 10;32.
ReplyDeleteI understand your position to define the acog as "wcg" and I believe the lady even remarked thst in a sense "wcg" is alive and kicking.
I believe persons up to 35 year old who grew up in a splinter will understand your classification.
Personally I'm not yet sure if these designations are effective toward any "new searchers" since "wcg" is in fact non existant and ALL respective splinters hate each others guts as they consider respective competing splinter leaders as deceivers.
Anyway, I wish you the best of luck as long as you expose factual truths as related in your video and personal message.
2 warnings. a) Never fall for the trappings to resort to lies that are easily dismissible by the cultmasters b) Don't get too zealous in your quest so much that you forget to live your life.
A man's got to do what a man's got to do. Go.forth and speak what you feel need be said.
Nck
Many thanks, David, to you and your friend for all your efforts in taking the WCG out of the shadows and into the light.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate the additional details to get to know you better. There are so many stories, such as your own, which have yet to be told. Anyone who grew up in the RCG/WCG/ACOGs needs a role model for resilience - thank you for being one.
Thank you all for your support, concern, and advice. It is greatly appreciated. I can’t thank you enough. Truly. I feel that I’ve mostly let go of anger and replaced it with compassion. When so feel upset I make myself do or say something nice for someone else. And I want to thank the show’s host, Atom, for putting in so much work for these videos and taking interest in the ACOG’s (love that terminology, btw). I believe where Atom and I connect is that our mission of compassion is very aligned. We don’t want to spread hate red and anger. Cults already do more than enough of that. We only hope to bring awareness so the hate and anger can be stopped as much as possible. Thanks again to everyone who watched and appreciated our message.
ReplyDelete-David
I was really hoping for 10:15's reply to TLA's comment about incorrect doctrine. I figured he/she would be back by now to set us all straight. Maybe I'm just jumping the gun.....maybe
ReplyDelete9.36 AM
ReplyDelete" ..but flawed people are everywhere."
But these are ministers who took baptismal vows to do things Gods way. To live by bible morality. Supposedly they were given a double portion of Gods holy spirit. The were informed that their judgment would be more strict.
Judging these ministers by the standard of other flawed people is the wrong standard.
TLA said...
ReplyDeleteAnon wants a list of false doctrines - here are a few to start:
British Israel - DNA debunks this.
7 times prophecy is not a prophecy - the 7 times are repeated multiple times in Leviticus to show escalating punishment.
There always were fringe beliefs that I never considered core doctrines. You say is an excuse, but the "doctrines" I listed have never been shown to be unbiblical.
Waterhouse was traveling the world (playing a lot of golf) and saying all kinds of crazy things, like a fleet of 747s taking the church to Petra, the Armstrongs being to 2 witnesses and if not the Bible is not true. Yes there were stupid ego driven things taught, but I never believed in them and complained to multiple minsters that the "Truth" was being tainted. I still point to brief list of the teachings on the immortal soul, pagan holidays, the Sabbath, the Plan of God shown in the Holy Days, the God Family. And yes, Christ was made to sit in the back of the bus because of poor leadership, so the "church" was deeply flawed.
Armstrong vehemently preached British Isrealism, which has long since been debunked as nonsense by science and history. He also predicted the end of the world numerous times and was wrong about that every single time. I’m sure all cult leaders are still right about things here and there, but we don’t go excusing their blatant abuses, lies, and injustices just because a few of their core claims happen to sound right. He was an abuser, plain and simple, and the Church he created is a testament to that. It attracted nut jobs just like him and all these crazy, abusive splinters are just a residual effect of the decades of lies and abuse he subjected others to. To put him up on a pedestal where everyone around him was crazy and he was somehow the only correct one takes some serious cognitive dissonance.
ReplyDeleteAnon 9:36,
ReplyDeleteI'm surprised you believe no one would list the wrong teachings of WCG on this site.
The false prophesies and claiming he (hwa) himself was the voice crying in the wilderness or the end time elijah are dam*ing in themselves.
But, mystery of the Ages states the New Covenant comes in at Christ's second coming. False!
That the Kingdom would not come until the second coming is also false. Do a search on Kingdom. There are multiple verses that say the Kingdom is here with you...AND "Jesus is Lord" means Jesus is King and that He currently has a spiritual kingdom of those that believe in Him and recognize Him as Lord.
In my experience Bible based Christians already have an understanding of man's plan for redemption-- which bible based Christians don't understand Christ's sacrifice (Passover), the need for humility (Unleavened), the need for the Holy Spirit (Pentecost)...that Christ returns with a trumpet (trumpets), that He removes our sins and died for us or that Satan will be put away (Atonement), that He will have reign on earth (tabernacles). This isn't foreign to most bible based Christians.
We did not teach the simple Gospel...we mocked it and added to it. This was another false teaching.
We taught that WCG was God's government form. FALSE.
We believed we could tell who was and was not a "real" Christian-- FALSE. We judged others/another Man's servant-- FALSE.
Surely tyhis is enough... I start getting sick thinking of all the false teachings. I really do.
Anonymous (7:14)
ReplyDeleteHaiku for you:
I knew a cowboy,
Who gave his bridle,
Who gave his saddle,
To a little college,
In the Piney Woods of East Texas.
High school found me in classrooms with my teachers who were nuns and one priest. So happy it was before my days of realizing I wasn't to call my teacher "Father" as that was his name he partly went by. :>( I was raised a Baptist, dated a guy and we attended a Catholic service and THAT was interesting!! I couldn't figure out what was going on with all the sitting, standing, going up front for a wafer and what not, constant rituals and then to top it off that rosary thing! Then after adulthood I attended a Sunday keeping Church of God, a Methodist church, a Seventh Day Adventist Church, then to Worldwide where, much to the dismay of some on here, I learned quite a bit and hold onto important teachings from there. Of course there were major wrong teachings which are still perpetuated. Examples, Christ is the God of the Old Testament, Christ led the Israelites out of Egypt, Christ is the creator God, Christ was the spokesman. Nope on all accounts. God said, "Thou Shalt Have No Other Gods Before Me," yet they have exalted Christ (the Word, Son, Yeshua) above the Father (YHWH). They taught there are two YHWHs and one God, when there's one YHWH. Timing of the Passover meal which should be at the beginning of the 15th isn't taught correctly, and...and...but they did have much that helped me, more than the other groups I had come out of over the years. I fear some of the offshoots believe they have "the truth " all wrapped up and are in need of nothing. That is wrong. We ALL have a long way to. It ain't over yet.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 9:54, you'll have to eat your words. You state, "There is not one single COG minister alive today that deserves respect. That respect will only come when they publicly acknowledge that they were wrong and that they supported lying church leaders." I guess you're not aware that some are saying pretty much just that. They have my respect and their teaching is sound. True growth.
ReplyDeleteJuly 30, 2019 at 9:36 AM is correct.
ReplyDeleteIt is human flaws such as prophecy and administration that that undid RCG/WCG in the early 70s. Nothing wrong with the doctrines. Truth is always truth, whether physical or spiritual. HWA being wrong about prophecies and abuse in the church doesn't mean he did not have the truth.
I have tried many times to leave Armstrongism but can't find any satisfying reasons from mainstream Christianity or other alternative Christian groups to refute my simple understanding I learnt from RCG/WCG regarding:
1. What and why man is. The God family. Man is to become God ( no, not the Mormon version).
2. God created us. He knows what is best for our bodies. Hence the clean and unclean meats.
3. God's Plan of Salvation as in weekly Sabbath and Annual Sabbaths (Holy Days).
The physical and the spiritual representation.
4. The modern descendants of Israel and Judah e.g physically the lands occupied by them are beautiful beyond words. Other countries just can't compare their physical landscapes with American, Western European or Australian/ New Zealand's physical blessings. ( I am an Asian, so I can see the huge difference).
5. The unbroken Royal lineage in England as promised in the Bible is unbreakable.
6. All must come to Christ on their knees. How about all those who died without this saving grace? Hence, the second resurrection.
These are a few examples that no one can explain to my satisfaction.
You may ask why I waste my time here in Banned. I keep an open mind. At times there are some relevant points being espoused here but I am still not convinced.
If not for HWA's teachings whether plagarised or not, I would not have these physical and spiritual understanding. If it is truth it is still truth. Armstrongism's spiritual teachings (not his personal lives or habits - who am I to judge?)is the nearest to the Bible. I am following his original doctrinal teachings (pre 1974 changes) as I know it is from God as proven in the Bible. Only HWA put the whole jigsaw puzzle in place.
To put him up on a pedestal where everyone around him was crazy and he was somehow the only correct one takes some serious cognitive dissonance.
ReplyDeleteAugust 1, 2019 at 8:20 PM
_________________________________________________________
This is the same as with the American Nazi's. Holding up Hitler as some hero when in reality he was a worthless murdering psychopath.
9.25 PM
ReplyDeleteYou seem to trivialize "abuse in the church." Life isn't just being physically alive. Rather, it is exercising certain responsibilities such as control of one's mind, property and time. Which is why jail is a punishment, and Christ states that He hates the sin of the Nicolaitans in Revelation. The word itself means to dominate. This is repeated in the parable of the talents were Christ gives every Christian certain pounds, ie, responsibilities. HWA and his ministers did not, and still do not agree with this. They believe that Christ left behind lording chief stewards who strip Christians of all their responsibilities. This is robbing people of their lives.
What difference does it make if "HWA put the whole jigsaw puzzle in place" if you don't have a life???? Your jigsaw puzzle is academic, worthless fluff without a life.
John 6:44
ReplyDeletethat's why blogs like this have no effect on The Church...
9:25pm
ReplyDelete"If not for HWA's teachings whether plagarised or not, I would not have these physical and spiritual understanding.
Interesting. So the God that you worship is limited? If not for HWA you never would have come to the biblical conclusions that you have?
Being a sabbath and feast keeper myself, though I disagree with several of your other disagreements, I very much believe God could have used other means to teach me these things. He was not limited to an egotistical, self-absorbed, sex addict like the Armstrongs. I personally think he used HWA, as he uses Satan, to see who we will obey, and why.
Those following/worshipping HWA in and out of the orgs and those totally rejecting everything he taught, no matter if it was biblical or not, are imo, failing the test.
I said failing, I didn't say they have failed.
Anonymous at 5:28 AM...
ReplyDeleteExactly!
Agree 5:28. These type of blogs can only live in the past. Never any moving forward because it's life blood is the past. Thus giving away the average age of the average blogger as being too old to accomplish any worthwhile change.
ReplyDelete"Agree 5:28. These type of blogs can only live in the past. Never any moving forward because it's life blood is the past."
ReplyDeleteSeriously? The person who did the video certainly is NOT an old person and as for dragging up the past, that is not something I have seen this blog do that often. It is focused upon PRESENT day leaders and the perverted things they say. If anyone is living in the past it is the present-day leadership of the various xCOG's who worship the past and have never moved into the 2020s. Hell, they can't even come up with original names or material. Its all different copies of the writing of Herbert Armstrong. Talk about living in the past! Stop worshiping the pervert and his writings. Try following Christ for a change.
Who's talking about the men in the video.
DeleteThis anti COG blogger world is focused on one man and one man only Herbert Armstrong.
Look at all the blogs that carry his name, escaping Armstrongisim, Armstrongisim this Armstrongisim that. Past, Past, Past. It's based on 1972ish to 1995 era. A past era.
And who are you to declare commentators are not following Jesus Christ ?
"Too old to accomplish anything worthwhile?" The moment one leaves any of the splinter groups is the most amazing moment in their lives and is all worthwhile! Knowing freedom is an amazing thing and to know you never have to follow the absurdities of a COG leader again.
ReplyDeleteOnly the Admin and a tiny few off this blog have really left. It's all an illusion like the Wizard of OZ behind the curtain.
ReplyDelete10:26. Leaving a splinter group? If that means turning the back on God and His covenant then that is not freedom. It's not about organizations, that is true.
ReplyDelete"Never any moving forward.."
ReplyDeleteIt's common for ideas posted on this blog to appear in ACOG articles. So it's this blog rather than the ACOGs that's moving forward.
Yes i agree 2:09. Not sure if that's flattering to the commentators or worrying. Why is God not inspiring them.
DeleteYou act as if leaving a splinter group puts you in jeopardy of losing your salvation. That is not what will happen. True spiritual and Godly freedom can only be found outside the COG.
ReplyDeleteIf any church can convince its members that they alone are the one true church, and that leaving them means losing ones salvation, then its checkmate. The members are slaves to that organisation.
ReplyDeleteI don't believe that you can separate the prophecy failures from Armstrongism, and have the basic doctrines remain as a pure or workable system. HWA taught that the reason his church (which he always called "God's Church") had the true meaning of end time prophecy was that we kept the laws regarding the sabbath, holy days, tithing, and clean meats. In other words, you had to "obey God" (HWA's buzzwords for adhering to his picked and chosen OC laws) in order to be granted that understanding.
ReplyDeleteWell, that one went down in flames! The prophecies failed, and HWA is now fertilizer, therefore, we did not have the correct understanding, or we would be in the kingdom right now. The doctrines went down hand in hand with the prophecies! You can't have one being correct without the other being correct. The people remaining in the church know this, which is why they insist that the prophecies have not failed, but have simply been delayed. They used to add as a proviso "so that we can have more time to get the work done." That part also cannot be true, since very very few people are familiar with any of the broadcasts or publications of any of the splinter groups. They are all but invisible. If the end were closer, you'd have to have a more powerful warning message, not an invisible one!
Now there are preachers outside of Armstrongism (like Perry Stone) who teach that there are special blessings for keeping the holy days, but that this is not a necessity for salvation. HWA made them into a horrible burden, and a doom and gloom joy killer because of his despotic government from the top down, and his use of the holy days as a platform for scaring members through his false prophecy hooks. Unfortunately, all of our memories and opinions of these days have been forever contaminated by the man from whom we learned of them. If God intends for us to keep them, He will need to purify and heal our minds from the Armstrong poisons.
Basically, nothing is salvageable from Armstrongism except for his teaching that we should drink plenty of water.
BB
A few opinions:
ReplyDelete1. The Elephant in the Room: The young man in the video is dressed very oddly and the interviewer seems to be a young woman trying her best to be a young man. There is honesty in this but you can imagine the GTA-like sarcasm bursting from COG readers. They will have a field day with this. You know how snitty they can be.
2. This kind of presentation is not persuasive to Armstrongists. One Armstrongist commented on this. I agree. It simply leads to a frenzy of rationalization. Based on my 30 years as an Armstrongist, good Armstrongists are totally unsympathetic about personal and emotional experiences like this. But they also cannot be approached with Biblical orthodoxy, science or factual data. My opinion is that the only thing that seems to hit with them is expose material about Armstrongist leaders.
3. As long as Armstrongism is alive, this blog is relevant. It is ironic that one commenter stated "Never any moving forward because it's life blood is the past." Some of the examples and evidence are from the past but they have a current application. This is because Armstrongism does not change and splinter groups pride themselves in conservativsm and in some cases being reactionary. I have known people who regard as dogma anything taught by HWA and Joseph Tkach, Sr. Nothing after that. HWA did not approve of birthdays but Joe, Sr. did so birthdays are acceptable. Moreover, the problems in Armstrongism today are the same problems that were present when I first began attending the WCG decades ago. How does all this make this blog not relevant?
1.17 AM
ReplyDeleteYours is a false dichotomy between the past and the present/future. We are all the sum total of all our past experiences. This is implicit in the Bibles "you shall know them by their fruits." The fruits are always past. Psychologists and psychiatrists always probe into their patients past in order to help them. For instance, irrational beliefs are identified and replaced with rational beliefs.
Your anti past stance flies in the face of modern mental health knowledge and practices. You should go back to playing video games in your parents basement.
"If God intends for us to keep them, He will need to purify and heal our minds from the Armstrong poisons.
ReplyDeleteHave you ever considered that by dwelling on HWA for 45 years that you are denying God's healing? Forget the damn man and obey God. If that means keeping the sabbath and feasts HWpervert should have nothing to do with it.
Remember that boat and helicopter that God sent those flood victims? Maybe you've been refusing healing because you're not looking to God as humbly as you should!
I've already received more healing than you can imagine, COGlodyte! Healing that would not have been necessary if my parents had never fallen for the HWA scam.. I bet it just pisses you folks off that I continue to warn others so that they might also leave the vomit and also receive healing.
ReplyDeleteHealing arrives gradually, and by degrees and percentages over time throughout our lives. The final percentage of healing will come for all of us in the Kingdom. If that were not true, it would mean that some are perfect right now, which is not only totally rodiculous, but the very idea thwarts the whole role of Jesus Christ in our lives. Jesus is the helicopter and the boat! (not Moses)
BB
BB, why do you assume I care about Moses? The sabbath and feasts existed long before Moses. Your whole response merely proves my 10:49am point. Your posting on here doesn't upset me, but apparently it riles you up. Calling me a coglodyte, quite amusing, seeing that I haven't been a member of a cog for nearing three decades.
ReplyDeleteJesus is the one who will heal you of your deep seated anger and hatred if you'll only allow him. Which again, was my point.
Someone hit a nerve. lol
ReplyDeleteI see that Mr. pointless argumentation is back!
ReplyDeleteRead the messages to the churches in Revelation. God and Jesus allowed certain conditions to continue to exist in the seven churches (not eras), causing devout people to keep living in them for their own edification. It's a nice platitude to tell someone that if they are living right, God and Jesus heal everything, but some things are not healed in this lifetime. A quick read of Peter and Paul should tell you that. Plus, many of our contemporaries must live their lives unsighted, others without limbs, or mobility. Some exist in a state of below normal intelligence, or plagued with autism or schizophrenia. Some of our gay posters have shared that they prayed their asses off in tears for their sexual orientation to be healed and changed, but apparently they must continue with it as it is throughout this lifetime. Rape victims carry heavy baggage throughout their lives. We all have ghosts of our pasts and are cognizant of our deficiencies and shortcomings, and some of us have been able to turn those around and to make them strengths, as we do here with our past degradations from Armstrongism. And, it's really not a bad thing to get pissed off 🤬at asshole 🤬black and white thinkers who believe they have all the answers and have been sent here to correct us. Honestly, most of us have come to expect that from people who have never experienced healing from the past mindset, and are in various percentages of still being stuck. So, I guess I'm saying "Pot meet Kettle", or "Physician, heal thyself!"
And, yeah 1:03, someone did hit a nerve, and it has been my pleasure to vent! I'm even proud of it and feel so much better having done so!
💩Have a nice day!💩
BB
2:54pm see post 10:49am because he called it perfectly!
ReplyDelete1.01 PM
ReplyDeleteJesus will heal you of this, and/or Jesus will heal you of that. It doesn't happen. I recently stumbled across a radio preacher claiming that Christ will heal the listeners of all their mental problems, if only they become Christians. But it's pure marketing. It's bull.
Since you don't know this from personal experience, or ignore this obvious fact, you must be a baby Christian, not matter your age or association with Christianity.
Who cares, 5:48??? (👹) Who died and made you the guy that gets to declare winners and losers, the one who gets to put commenters into boxes? Take your hubris somewhere else, or maybe stick it where the sun doesn't shine!!! Had my fun and am done with you! Now go write something nasty about the moderation here.
ReplyDeleteBB
BB this is mild compared to a lot of the crap coming through lately. It's like a bunch of Jr. High valley girls. They can't get over the fact that people have refuted their dear leaders and are happy to be free. They think they are bothering me but I find it all rather hilarious. They take themselves far too seriously and feel I should be intimidated by them. I'm not.
ReplyDeleteIt's a whole different crowd than we had back in the day, Gary, that's for sure. Bait has been dangled for me over the past several days, and I ignored it. Unfortunately or fortunately as the case may be, I was bored today and decided to have a little fun, so glad you let this one through.
ReplyDeleteOne thing for sure. We know we have better lives than these Valley Girls, and that's the best revenge.
Cheers!
BB
BB This one was mild compared to some I have gotten about you and some others here. Every once in a while its fun to let the crazies through and make fools of themselves. Which they do rather well.
ReplyDeleteMust be an interesting inbox.
ReplyDeleteRSK. you have no idea! From Russian babes looking for husband's and showing me their goods to whiney-ass xCOG men who have internet "ministries" eternally pissed off at everything and everyone. And then there are the cranky Jr. High valley girls ticked at me. It's rather hilarious how they think they push my buttons. They don't.
ReplyDeleteWhat I've noticed over the years is that there are any number of aspiring "alpha-males" floating around out there who are collectors of people.
ReplyDeleteLet's face it, that is the sum-total of the HWA mold, and the example we all witnessed as members of WCG. It became part of the dna of the church itself. These collectors go about attempting to sway or turn talented people, in an effort to get them to join with them (actually under them). They realize that if they attract articulate, successful people to their causes, it enhances their own aura of power. Anyone who is targeted by the collector, and fails to be swayed, or to join up, becomes the enemy. The collector then behaves very destructively towards that individual. In such situations, the stature of the collector is on the line, and he's got to defeat all of those who would stand up to him, and refuse to join.
Synonyms for this type of collector include "bully", "tyrant", "asshole" and there are others, but I'm sure that everyone gets the picture. I've always reserved a very special long finger on each hand for these collectors. I have nothing but contempt for them, and have always taken joy in fighting them and bringing down their authority, which is totally arbitrary. Best policy when dealing them is the very brutal scorched earth policy, a policy which ensures that they never get anything of value from you.
BB