Hello Banned,
I wanted to share this with you and your audience.
I then later received a comment from TW. We were exchanging comments and I thought we were having a good and respectful exchange about what the Scriptures actually say and mean, but then they blocked me. So I decided to send them a direct message through Instagram saying, "Really? You delete my comments and then block me. If you guys really have "the Truth" you wouldn't block me. Let's keep the conversation going on public forums or even privately. You're not going to get rid of me."
Maybe I shouldn't have said "You're not going to get rid of me." But really??!!! C'mon! LCG makes big claims in an absolutist fashion and then doesn't like to be challenged on their forums or anywhere regarding those claims or their behavior. If this gets posted on your blog, there is something that I would like to say to those from LCG that may read this.
LCG Members - Go back and read the weekly update on your website from July 18th, 2019. In it Dr. Douglas S. Winnail wrote the following:
Prove Your Beliefs: Many today assume that simply “believing in Jesus” and “accepting Him into your heart” are all that is required to be a Christian. However, the Bible teaches differently! The Scriptures warn us that false teachers will also talk about believing in Jesus and will deceive many people (Matthew 24:3–5; 2 Corinthians 11:1–4). The Apostle Paul advised Christians to “Test [examine carefully] all things; hold fast what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21). Luke writes that the early Christians’ belief in the resurrection of Jesus was based on “many infallible proofs” of many witnesses who saw Jesus alive after His crucifixion (Acts 1:1–3). Josephus, the famous Jewish historian in the first century AD writes, “Jesus…[was] condemned to the cross…[yet] he appeared alive to them on the third day” (Antiquities of the Jews, 18:3:3). Peter emphasized that the apostles were eyewitnesses to the things they were teaching (2 Peter 1:16) and that Christians should be able to give sound reasons for their beliefs (1 Peter 3:15). Paul confidently provided a defense for his beliefs (Acts 26). If we take time to carefully prove what we believe and understand the evidence upon which our beliefs rest, we, too, should be able to confidently defend and explain what we believe to anyone who asks. Have a profitable Sabbath, Douglas S. Winnail
For the past seven years, I have been asking you all at LCG to thoroughly explain and defend what you believe. Instead what you do is you suppress what you all believe to be "the Truth" in public and in private by using loaded terminology and twisting Scripture. Why are you ashamed of what you believe to be "the gospel"? If you believe that you all are going to become God, then say that and say it loudly and clearly in your telecasts, your publications and in your sermons each Sabbath. Don't block those of us who disagree with your theology, especially those of us you regard as "Counterfeit Christians" that follow a "Counterfeit Christianity" and are destined for the lake of fire. Truth matters and Theology matters, so why do you reject following through with your own comments to "Prove your Beliefs" and to "confidently defend and explain what we believe to anyone who asks"?
It's because you don't really believe what is actually written in the Holy Bible. Instead, you choose to believe what Herbert W. Armstrong, Roderick C. Meredith, John H. Owgyn, Gerald Weston, Douglas Winnail and many others tell you should be written in the Bible and what they say it means. In other words, you believe man rather than God.
I love all of you in LCG, I really do, but I challenge you all to finally step up and let's talk. Don't block me or shun me and say things like, "don't cast your pearls before swine". I am not scoffing or ridiculing what you all believe to be the gospel. I believe that you all are sincere people, but are sincerely wrong theologically. All I'm asking you to do is to thoroughly explain yourselves, and allow for those of us that disagree with you to engage you in dialogue regarding our disagreements and why we disagree. Additionally, I'm also asking you to look within your organization and stand up to the spiritual manipulation and abuse that often comes from your own leaders and laymen. If you want to talk, send me an email through my website. I won't bash LCG or its leaders, but I will speak the truth in love.
Kind Regards,
Mario Espinosa
Kind Regards,
Mario Espinosa
Social Media: about.me/marioespinosa
Well, Mario, the firs strike against you is that you are getting or already have a REAL theological education. COG ministers only get their education out of authorized booklets and articles by Herbert Armstrong and the leader of the splinter group.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think Christ would say if I got what you write about others? Do you consider yourself a Christian and your fruits dictate a lot to be something like that, I just want to repeat what Jesus said to people like you who say this:
ReplyDeleteI'm a Christian, husband, father, family man, a proud Houstonian, an alum of the University of Houston, and a student at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.
Rev 3:17 Because you say, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and know not that you are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18 I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich; and white clothing, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness does not appear; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see.
@2:23
ReplyDeleteThere is no such things as a "REAL theological education". This is a total and complete lie that is spread frequently as some kind of counter point.
It is a logical falacy, an appeal to authority.
John the baptist, whom Jesus himself was the greatest man to ever live did not have a "real theological education" and neither did Jesus.
We can call HWA a liar, and he was, but its hypocritical to use a lie to defeat a lie.
You can listen to their YouTube clip on them complaining about religious lack of freedom to preach the Bible in Australia.
ReplyDeleteThey are just exercising the same right they are complaining about with you.
Hypocritical?
Mario, I don't see where they're claiming that John 3:16 says that humans will be God or God beings. You do realize that the WCG isn't the only ones who've ever taught that man will become God don't you?
ReplyDeleteNo one has ever taught that man will become the Father or the Son, but many throughout the centuries has taught that man will become God. I use capital G because the g ble teaches that God is a family with Father, Son and children. You're free to deny this, or explain it away, but that's what it says.
In the garden of Eden God said let us make man in our image after out likeness. At our resurrection we're to be "like" Jesus. Jesus is God, so what will that make us? Again, explain that away all that you want.
The bible also says that we will be partakers of the divine nature. The Greek word translated partakers can also be translated "sharers".
For all the symbolism in the bible about a spiritual receiving of God's seed, sperma, of being born, of being children of God, why is it blasphemous to believe we'll one day become the same kind of being as God?
It's one thing to stand up against nst the false cultish organizations fashioned after Armstrongism, but it's another to reject something biblical just because it's not "orthodox" or because HWA taught it.
“For the Son of God became man so that we might become God” (St. Athanasius, De inc., 54, 3: PG 25, 192B).
“The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods” (St. Thomas Aquinas, Opusc., 57:1-4).
It looks like the teaching was once "orthodox" but for some reason "Orthodoxy" now rejects the belief.
I can’t be perfect without being God.
ReplyDeleteI can’t have the mind of Christ without being God.
I can’t have the glory of God without being God.
I can’t have the divine nature without being God.
I can’t measure up to the stature of Christ without being God.
I can’t be entirely composed of the spirit of God without being God.
If I am named God, I am God.
If I share God’s throne, I am God.
If I will be worthy of worship, I will be God.
Jesus Christ will not marry a being who is not God.
God became man. Man (Jesus Christ) became God. If one man could do it, all can.
To receive salvation is to become God.
If I am to become one with God as Christ and the Father are one, then I will be God.
Jesus Christ will not marry a being who is not God.
ReplyDeleteJesus Christ first married Israel. Was Israel God? If so, as 4:21 asserts, much of ACOG theology becomes rubbish.
There are other fallacies in 4:21's post, but this is enough for right now.
What a sad indictment that one is being taught they can’t be perfect without becoming God. That negates everything Christ did and accomplished.
ReplyDeleteWhat a sad indictment that one is being taught they can’t be perfect without becoming God. That negates everything Christ did and accomplished.
ReplyDeleteIn Matthew 5:48, Christ told His followers to be perfect, AS God is perfect. He didn't say, "Wait to become God, THEN you'll be perfect."
You are wasting your time Mario. No one is going to invite you to contradict their teachings and established beliefs. No church really welcomes questions and if they do, all they are going to do is send you their answers. Nothing is up for discussion. If it was it would shake the faith of the faithful who believe these things are already settled once and for all.
ReplyDeleteI don't know what a "real" theological education is but public debates would certainly jump start a dying "work" or put it speedily to rest once and for all.
ReplyDeleteAnon 3pm - John the Baptist was the son of a Priest - his dad was part of the priestly courses setup to serve in the temple.
ReplyDeleteAs a son - the first born - and probably only son of a priest, he probably had a full Levitical education.
Jesus at age 12 (and the nephew of the same priest) was already amazing the law experts at the temple with his knowledge.
If you believe the Gospels, then at least take the time to study them, instead of COG booklets.
It’s doubtful that you could have your iron sharpened by a bunch of robotic cult-zombies in the first place.
ReplyDeleteSince plastic doesn’t do a very effective job of sharpening iron, they really didn’t cause any sort of loss to you through their censorship and blocking.
Insults from cult zombies also always miss the mark. They’re like the pot calling the kettle “colored”.
BB
Anon3:00PM wrote:
ReplyDelete"There is no such things as a "REAL theological education". This is a total and complete lie that is spread frequently as some kind of counter point. It is a logical falacy, an appeal to authority. John the baptist, whom Jesus himself was the greatest man to ever live did not have a "real theological education" and neither did Jesus. We can call HWA a liar, and he was, but its hypocritical to use a lie to defeat a lie."
Not Anon2:23PM, but since you're talking about lies, can we just be honest about something?
You'll receive a lot more truth about the bible, its origin, its authorship, its canonization, its textual criticism, the broader apocrypha and psedepigrapha etc. in a seminary divinity program than anyone ever did at AC, or for that matter, from the pulpit at any ACOG congregation.
Theology itself may be a matter of interpretation and opinion, as there's no consensus by theologians on theology, but when it comes to "REAL" in terms of the presentation of coherent and supportable facts versus demonstrable lies, conjecture, and conspiracy theories presented as though they were facts, a normal education at a seminary or divinity program is going to be a lot more "REAL" on the continuum than any education received by any minister of LCG.
And it's a fallacy bringing John the Baptist and Jesus into this as that's just a meaningless non sequitur accomplishing nothing as ain't nobody John the Baptist or Jesus.
Don't use a lie to defeat a lie, m'kay?
Isaiah 43:10 comes to mind...
ReplyDelete"“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."
So much for Herbie's steal of Mormon doctrine.
"As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become."
-Mormon Prophet Lorenzo Snow
It's one thing to inherit God's nature, it's quite another to BE God from everlasting.
Psalm 90:2
"Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God."
As for Christ, Nicene creed sums it up...
"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father."
LCG, without the slightest scholarly caution quotes Josephus:
ReplyDelete“Jesus…[was] condemned to the cross…[yet] he appeared alive to them on the third day” (Antiquities of the Jews, 18:3:3).
Patent interpolation by Christians added to Josephus's original writings!
Mario. Your actions show you a hypocrite as you freely admit of having been confrontational under the guise of Christian love.
ReplyDeleteNo successful Coach or teacher in this world would have agreed with you "teaching/imparting of knowledge" method.
Likewise not many people on this blog ask real questions. As a matter of fact only Dennis asks questions to question. And even he stands accused of subsequently not listening to his worthy opponents.
Perhaps you should learn basketball and then try a conversation with let's say dictators like Kim. Like, crucial word here.
Nck
Mario is like rest of fall out members who think that he is someone better the rest and this is a problem with all who left WCG and changed belief and started the wrong group. What the shame but they werewolf in shipskin new we know who they are. Mario is one of them because whoever tries to write hey are against it and they think that they know better,
ReplyDeleteIs that the level of academia at LCG: Quoting the Testamonium Flavianum like it's history and not a pious fake??
ReplyDeleteLCG cannot stand to be questioned because they are embarrassed about what they preach. There is no bold message coming from them. It is a bankrupt theologically ignorant belief system that is heretical in its doctrines. That is evident in the blasphemous comment above about expecting to become God.
ReplyDeleteI had a similar experience when after watching a PCG YouTube video promoting the false theory that Queen Victoria was descended from King David I wrote a brief outline pointing out the definitive reasons why this was a lie. Although my comment remained public for several hours perhaps even up to 24 hours the following day when I revisited the site it had been deleted. I knew what I posted was the truth and whoever read it and then still chose to censor it would have at least been granted by Divine Providence the gift of a small seed of His truth to be planted in their mind that hopefully will one day bear fruit in the form of them leaving this false ideology and false church behind. It’s a pity Armstrongist Christians refuse to debate their position with those Christians who they disagree with choosing instead to silence opposing views to hold on to fantasist Armstrong’s lies (Ezek. 13:6-8). So take comfort my Christian brother that your labor is not in vain (1 Cor. 15:58)! In the end they’ll have to repent too for God is “no respecter of persons” (Acts 10:34)😉👍
ReplyDeleteIt was the serpent that from the beginning told Eve that humans could be God, and Jesus said the devil --- the serpent --- was a liar from the beginning. You can never be God. For one thing, God has no beginning, but you did. We come into God's family via adoption according to Paul, not because we are of the same species as God.
ReplyDeleteGordon, was Satan's lie that man would become like God, or that by eating of the forbidden tree, rather than going through the process already established by God from the foundation, that man can become like God?
ReplyDeleteGod said let us make man like us. It's a seven thousand year process. Satan said they could avoid that process and immediately attain the goal simply by eating from a tree that God forbade.
Satan does lie, but his lies are subtle, often containing twisted truth. The truth being that man can become like God, the lie is that he could do it Satan's way rather than God's way.
As for your last statement, "We come into God's family via adoption according to Paul, not because we are of the same species as God.", in God's creation species (kinds) reproduce after their own species. Is God unable to reproduce after his own species? Or could it be that's exactly what he's doing and Satan's lie is a rejection of that?
LCG, without blinking, quotes the Testamonium Flavianum as "evidence" of resurrection??
ReplyDelete“Jesus…[was] condemned to the cross…[yet] he appeared alive to them on the third day” (Antiquities of the Jews, 18:3:3).
Dumb fundamentalists out of touch with contemporary critical scholarship.
Also Gordon, the word adoption has it's own nuanced definition in our 21st century culture, and to use that as "proof" of a biblical concept is not necessarily accurate.
ReplyDeleteThe Greek word that Paul used means to literally "make one his child". God is in the process of literally making us his children!
His Seed (sperma) is in us, the Holy Spirit, we are growing spiritually inside our mother, the church (not an organization), and we will be born into his family at the resurrection.
The bible also clearly says that we are his offspring:
Act 17:28 - For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 - Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
The Greek word for offspring being genos, also translated elsewhere as "kind".
It is a clear biblical doctrine that when we receive God's Holy Spirit we are the same "kind" as God. Being the same kind as God, we will one day be born into his family, and we will remain the same kind as God eternally.
That's not my interpretation, it's not HWA's, that's what the bible says!
Kevin McMillen
"It was the serpent that from the beginning told Eve that humans could be God,..."
ReplyDeleteummm, no, he said they would be as gods, knowing good and evil...Gen 3:5
nice try....Satan and his minions always twist the scriptures.
so Mario tries to troll TW, and gets upset when the shut him down?
ReplyDeleteas for becoming God, just read 1John 3:2
ReplyDeleteif we are like Him, what else could we be? (keep in mind that the word "God" is used for the Office, Name, and Type of Being that He is)
we will always be His subjects, but we will also be the same type of being.
Winnail says (and then provides unsupportive scriptures):
ReplyDeleteProve Your Beliefs: Many today assume that simply “believing in Jesus” and “accepting Him into your heart” are all that is required to be a Christian. However, the Bible teaches differently! The Scriptures warn us that false teachers will also talk about believing in Jesus and will deceive many people (Matthew 24:3–5; 2 Corinthians 11:1–4).
With the verses he cites about false teachers teaching about belief in Jesus, he has the gall to compare those that claim to be the Messiah with those that believe in the Messiah and teach of the Messiah. This is disgusting.
Belief is powerful and creates change in the heart. Yet, the COGs denounce this clear teaching of the Bible: "If you believe in Christ you will be saved."
Romans 10:9 "If you say with your mouth 'Jesus is Lord' and believe in your heart, that Jesus died and rose again, you will be saved." God knows our heart. He knows if we are playing games.
Winnail cites II Cor. 11:1-4 which talks about being pulled from your love of Christ as Eve was tempted by the serpent. The COGs don't recognize that what they accuse others to be, they seem to be the better fit. They tell the brethren "No, what the Lord clearly says about belief and salvation (the tree of life) is not true, you need this instead so you will be as God yourself."
The COGs add to the Bible. All the verses that say belief is THE requirement isn't good enough for the COGs. They are afraid of belief in Christ it seems because then the Holy Spirit has too much power for them.
They are not distrustful of belief in the law as taught by HWA though. They are very confident in the HWA version with its additions and omissions.
Unfortunately, it is easy for one to be deemed angry when pointing these things out. Not that anger in such instances is wrong, as their twisting of scripture is malignant.
I do hope more see the false teachings of the COGs. I'm thankful that the COG scales have been removed from my eyes. It shames me to think that for years as a claimed Christian I felt comfortable in that culture (as others felt similarly) to state that I didn't feel comfortable with Jesus and much preferred hearing about the Father.
As Winnail says, "Prove all things." Yes, please do and know the pure love of Christ.
Anon 5:51,
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what it will finally mean to be sons of God. I know it entails salvation and being with the Father and Son. That seems more than enough for me, but I tend to think it will be more in line with being as God is. I know it is above the angels. If the Lord means we will truly be as He is then that is undoubtedly within His power. But, all these things are too great for my understanding. "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."
The reality is that the feedback loop is going to happen, no matter what. If an organization tries to suppress free market response, then it will become a Black Market response. Smart organizations get in front of this and deal with it, and work towards problem resolutions.
ReplyDeleteBanned in many ways acts like an independent "Consumers Reports" magazine for the COGS.
Jim, exactly. It should be obvious that we'll never become greater than the Father or the Son, and I'm not defending Herbie here but, he never taught that we would.
ReplyDeleteThe statement "God as God is God" was just stupid without clarification.
Also, the idea that once Spirit one can't be destroyed in the future just made no sense seeing that they taught that if Jesus had sinned he'd remain dead. If that was accurate, which I think it was/is, then Jesus being Spirit beforehand could have died eternally. Meaning that spirit can be destroyed.
The teaching that Satan and the demons will live eternally because they're spirit is just ignorant. I think God can destroy them any time he wants, he could even place them in physical bodies and kill them, but he doesn't even have to do that.
Satan is merely God's puppet (I usually use the word b!tcג) to do his will, and his will is to teach us the fruits of sin.
While that seems like a tough way to learn to hate sin, we really have no clue how great of a salvation God has for us.
When all is said and done then we can consider whether this life was worth it or not.
Kevin
My question to Mario is, since you yourself have a blog, do you delete comments that you don't want to waste your time with? I'm not defending LCG, but everyone does it.
ReplyDelete"It should be obvious that we'll never become greater than the Father or the Son"
ReplyDeleteI should have also said that we'll never be equal with them either, even though we'll be the same kind of being. My father and I are the same kind of being, I'll never be "equal" to him, he'll always be my father.
I may have the same abilities as him, I might even have better, but I'll never be equal, he'll always be my father!
Our relationship with our heavenly Father and Jesus just might be similar.
Kevin
All these cults will be destroyed. Completely.
ReplyDeleteThe NWO goal is to completely destroy Christianity. Unless the tables are turned on them soon, it will be too late. The LCG will not survived this. No sect or cult will. Here is how they are doing it.
1) Infiltrated Catholic church with Communists and homosexuals (hence all the child abuse scandals).
2) Evangelical churches are being infiltrated with Kabbalah "wisdom" (actually mystery religion) by Rabbis who are brainwashing Christians. One of the first stages is to brainwash Christians into thinking the state of Israel is the kingdom of God on earth, and that those who don't support the (murdering, lying, torturing, war mongering, ungodly) state of Israel are under a curse and will be destroyed.
This is based on the lie that the Jews were and still are God's people. Actually, in NT theology, that role passed to Christians.
3) The final stage is to bring to light all the Mystery Religion that has been hidden in the OT and NT all along. Then Christianity will be seen for what it is: a mystery religion. When Christianity is totally discredited, it will be replaced with Lucifer worship. That is the plan.
For starters, see the book "Kabbalah Secrets Christians Need to Know" by DeAnne Loper.
9:47 Yes, the Churches of God cults will be destroyed, that is assured. The rest of your posting is just as stupid and absurd as LCG's belief in becoming God as God is.
ReplyDeleteNWO: the favorite conspiracy topic for the COG fringe. That and the Illuminati.
I attended AC for two years, graduated in 73 left the church in 74. While in First Year Bible class with RCM he showed himself to be an intellectual coward. No real discussion was allowed. Leaders would not engage in an open discussion of teachings. To even question their ideas was to be labeled as having a "bad attitude." When I contact LCG with questions, they don't answer questions, shift the conversation. Ask them five questions, they only attempt to answer one. They are not only untrained, they are arrogant in their ignorance. They suffer from belief perseverance. The more you challenge them, the more they dig their heels in. I can't blame them. They have invested so much into this belief system, they can't allow themselves to question anything they have been taught.
ReplyDeleteWell, the NT gives us two commands: to love God and to love our “neighbor”. It doesn’t tell us to figure out what it’s going to be like in the afterlife for each individual, and the scriptures are all subject to interpretation, so we can’t “prove all things” by listening to everyone’s interpretation of what the Bible says. God lives in us through His Spirit to enable us to love. We shall know them by their fruits. So, when I die, and I will, God has a place for me. That’s all I need to know. He’ll tell me the rest when that time comes. Just my thoughts.
ReplyDeleteThe NWO is not stupid. Read the book, New World Order by Mark Dice. There are plenty of good books. And MANY world leaders, top bankers, etc, admit to the NWO. That includes David Rockefeller who set up the Trilateral Commission and the Counsel on Foreign Relations and admitted he was trying to destroy America.
ReplyDeleteFor Kevin and Anon 212: Satan was he who said "I will become like the Most High." This is not something to which I aspire. υἱοθεσία, the word rendered as "adoption" in Romans 8:23, appears to involve making someone into a child, but by law, not by birth. John 1:12 implies that also. I could be wrong, but I have checked almost 30 translations of Romans 8:23 in English and in French, and all but 2 of them chose to translate it that way. The Good News Translation and Weymouth are the exceptions.
ReplyDeleteI'll grant that γένος in Acts 17:29 can easily be "offspring" but it can be rendered as "family" instead. Moreover, please note that Paul was not laying down doctrine there; he was telling his audience that their poets said we are the offspring of God. He was quoting pagan poets. HIs point begins at verse 24 and culminates in verse 29: by virtue of being his creation, we are his offspring.
So far as God reproducing himself, that is another difference between him and us. We know that in the resurrection, we will be neither male nor female. Why was that contrast presented, if not to point out that there will be no reproduction?
As to Anon 551, yeah, I'd stay anonymous also if I was that venomous.
For Kevin and Anon 212: Satan was he who said "I will become like the Most High." This is not something to which I aspire. υἱοθεσία, the word rendered as "adoption" in Romans 8:23, appears to involve making someone into a child, but by law, not by birth. John 1:12 implies that also. I could be wrong, but I have checked almost 30 translations of Romans 8:23 in English and in French, and all but 2 of them chose to translate it that way. The Good News Translation and Weymouth are the exceptions.
ReplyDeleteI'll grant that γένος in Acts 17:29 can easily be "offspring" but it can be rendered as "family" instead. Moreover, please note that Paul was not laying down doctrine there; he was telling his audience that their poets said we are the offspring of God. He was quoting pagan poets. HIs point begins at verse 24 and culminates in verse 29: by virtue of being his creation, we are his offspring.
So far as God reproducing himself, that is another difference between him and us. We know that in the resurrection, we will be neither male nor female. Why was that contrast presented, if not to point out that there will be no reproduction?
As to Anon 551, yeah, I'd stay anonymous also if I was that venomous.
Gordon Feil said: "So far as God reproducing himself, that is another difference between him and us. We know that in the resurrection, we will be neither male nor female. Why was that contrast presented, if not to point out that there will be no reproduction?"
ReplyDeleteWhere specifically does it state in the Bible that the children (sons and daughters) of God will be genderless and there will be no sex?
I'm aware Christ outlined to the religious leaders of His day that there is no marriage (Mat 22:30; Mar 12:25; Luk 20:35). But, He said nothing about us being genderless or not having sex. Perhaps His reference to the state of the angels was only in reference to the fact that they don't marry. It's important to note that animals like the angels don't marry, but they have gender and have sex too. And yet they're without sin.
In any case, whether we'll be male and female and be able to have sex with each other or be neuter is up to our God and Father since I believe that if we are neutered beings we'll still experience an intense, addictive and pleasurable feeling of being loved by God and expressing that same deep love to all our brethren that will be better than human sex and orgasm :-)
The thing is Gordon, we're not saying "I" will become like the most high, we're saying that "The Most High" is making us like himself. There's a big difference there, and it looks like you're attempting to link our attitude about it to Satan's attitude. If so you are quite wrong.
ReplyDeleteYou also seem unable to comprehend that God's method of "reproducing", which we very well could be experiencing, could be the ultimate reality, the norm, while man's way of reproducing is just temporary.
The fact that angels neither marry nor are given in marriage doesn't prove that God can't reproduce.
Kevin
I think it is a good thing that people like Kevin have a voice. I like people exchanging and correcting one another in love. And I hate prosylitizers.
ReplyDeleteNck
9:47 He's just trying to justify his hatred for anything that may reek of Armstrong. But as Kevin pointed out in other posts that early Christian writers also taught that we will become God. He quoted "God became man so that man can become God" from an ancient writer. If Armstrong touched any of it they hate it. It's really sad that so many worship a man thinking he brought truth, when in reality he mixed truth with error, as Satan did, and he's caused so many to possibly reject truth just because his name was once attached to it. He's dead folks, but the bible remains. If you still believe the bible then separate the truth from the error. Please. If you no longer believe the bible then make sure it's the bible you reject and not just anything Armstrong.
ReplyDeleteI knew some people years ago who had a gay dog. Up until then, I had no idea this was even possible, but apparently it is somewhat common in the animal kingdom.
ReplyDeletePeople get themselves into a lot of trouble by wildly extrapolating and by attempting to teach things that nobody can possibly know. A certain subset of the human population imagines angels and demons as being this way or that, and then fears their own imagination.
When a child is born, the entire Universe has to shift and make room. Another entity capable of free will, and therefore capable of becoming God, has been born.
ReplyDeleteNck
PS The Uterus is the most magnificent of organs. If men had one they would be constantly bragging about it.
Ummm.....759, I think you should let me speak for myself instead of attributing to me what you term as "hatred". Gosh, I had some really good years in WCG and much of what I now regard as current blessings derived from that time. I am not even sure I know what Armstrongism is, and I have no hatred for HWA or generally for what he taught, although I do think that the overall culture created a lot of injuries (not so much for me) that I would not wish on people.
ReplyDeleteI used to believe that God was making us into his kind. I just don't see now that it is a provable doctrine. It may be true, but I think we really don't know. We do know that he shall have incorruptible bodies, and that we shall be like the Son of God in some way or another. But to say that we will be God as God is God is a big stretch. He lives outside of time, whereas we had a beginning. Of course, in the resurrection, I fully expect that we will live outside of time also, and maybe somehow the past will no longer exist so that it will be like we have always been. Who knows?
I don't say that God cannot reproduce. I just say that the process of the holy spirit is us should not be claimed as reproduction of God unless there is evidence that has not been presented in this discussion. It is plain that we will have many of the qualities of God, but that won't make us God. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd need better proof than I have received thus far. The Bible teaching, so far as I can decipher it, is that we become children of God via adoption, and that makes us part of his family.
And Yes, I agree that Kevin's is a calm and moderating voice in this forum.
Gordon. I'm not sure since I m not qualified for religion, but didn't wcg teach that "the process of the holy spirit" is PRECEDING the birth. It was said that Christians were only begotten through the HS not Born Again as "godlike entities".
ReplyDeleteI should be silent on these topics. But I like to solve a riddle now and then.
Nck
NCK, yes the WCG catch phrase against "born again" was we are merely begotten, which I believe both to be wrong, or the very least lacking clarification.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was leaving the WCG I wrote a paper on the born again subject. The Greek root word was gennao. WCG claimed that gennao only meant begotten and I refuted that showing that it means anywhere from the begettal to the actual birth depending upon the context.
I showed that the bible also uses another Greek word once one has been born and that is titko.
While Jesus was on earth he was the monogenes, the only begotten of the Father (root gennao), after his resurrection he was the prototokos, the firstborn (root titko)
When Jesus was talking to Nicodemus he wasn't just talking about the initial begettal nor the final birth, he was talking about the entire process.
The best translation would have been "unless one goes through the birth process again he cannot see the Kingdom of God".
So, instead of asking "are you born again brother?", the question should be "are you going through the new birth process again brother" and the answer should be yes.
Jesus said we must be gennao again, and that process starts at receiving the Holy Spirit, so a true Christian is most definately gennao again now, not at the resurrection, if they have God's Holy Spirit. We're going through the process now, we just haven't been born (titko) yet.
Physically the entire process takes 9 months, spiritually it could take 40, 50, 60 years, or mere days if one dies not long after receiving the Holy Spirit.
Kevin McMillen
Gordon, I have no problem with your answer "I don't know" it was your original denial of the teaching that I had the problem with. You implied it was Satanic. If you had started out, I don't know for sure, but these are my doubts, the conversation might have been shorter.
ReplyDeleteIt is interesting you made a study of the topic. Circumventing Dr Stav.
ReplyDeleteIt occurs to me that Jesus might not have spoken Greek as a Syriac girl once prayed "Our Father" in Aramaic to me up there in the mountains over Damascus. I find the birth process or travail an accurate/hopeful description of this life as contained in a current vessel of stardust.
Philosophically I would agree on a process. Unfortunately I am confronted with "people loosing their mind" very deep into the process called life (dementia)and I wonder if God provides something of a "safety valve" or "backstop". Also I do not believe that someone 2 days in a process then dies is fit to, lets say, "teach" others about the process.
A process takes time or experience to come to completion. But hey I said philosophically so that includes (human) reasoning. I mean "time", another of such limited concepts we humans have devised to come to better understanding of or define our surroundings. But what does time mean when discussing matters of unlimited scope. And what experiences actually do matter? Mandela didn't experience much more than cut stones in his 25 years in prison. Somehow "he seems to have gotten it" later in life.
nck
NCK, ah, the old "human reasoning" topic that the WCG ministers so disdained. Were we supposed to use inhuman reasoning? What other kind could we use. 😉
ReplyDeleteI know that Jesus didn't speak Greek, but that's all that we have to go by.
As for Dr. Stavrinides, yep he was the big reason I left WCG, that and the "only true church" crap! Went to CGI for four years then found total freedom after that.
Kevin
I'm sure you saw I referred to "reasoning" because of my own limiting definitions. As I gave the example of "time."
ReplyDeleteDr Stavs attempt to (re) define God also was a deal breaker for me. (right or wrong) How many times does one get to define God on the intellectual level?
Funny when we read the Bible in English we go to the "original" Hebrew or Greek. But when confronted with Jesus speaking Greek we don't go to the Aramaic concordance. I should be silent now or Dennis may find food for thought again as his teaching impulses get massaged. :-) :-)
Nck
Can I just add that it's possible that angels do have gender. For instance, seraphim are described as having 6 wings--2 to fly, 2 to cover their faces and 2 to cover their "feet" (Isaiah 6:2). Feet is a biblical euphemism for genitals.
ReplyDeleteWell that explains Maverick talking about his Wing Man. I also now understand the Anglo Saxon measurement system deriving from the length of bodyparts. Bunch of braggards, "oh its a feet long", how would the victorians know performing in the dark because they have the right Israelite heifers of not the gay kind.
ReplyDeleteNck
Mario wrote: "...Truth matters and Theology matters, so why do you reject following through with your own comments to "Prove your Beliefs" and to "confidently defend and explain what we believe to anyone who asks"?
ReplyDeleteIt's because you don't really believe what is actually written in the Holy Bible. Instead, you choose to believe what Herbert W. Armstrong, Roderick C. Meredith, John H. Owgyn, Gerald Weston, Douglas Winnail and many others tell you should be written in the Bible and what they say it means. In other words, you believe man rather than God."..."
There are a couple of reasons (and more) for hirelings (who still drink "Milk of the word" and eat "Junk Food" to pass on to us) like Doug Winnail, Weston, Xcog leaders (pick a name) thinking and writing the things they do, but not really believing the Bible writings. These hireling need to be given something. Like what?
"Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day." Deut 29:4
"And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power," Ephesians 1:19
Oh, and they used to quote John 6:44 so often, but did they really believe that God needed to "draw," or "drag" as Strong's Concordance points out? Oh, that takes belief again!
They all continue to demonstrate their blindness, regardless of what ditch they are in!
Matthew 15:13 "...Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up."
:14 "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."
And time continues to tell...
John
NCK, LOL
ReplyDeleteKev
To Nck 8/13/2019 @ 9:09 PM - The Holy Bible clearly shows that when the Lord Jesus engaged with religious hypocrites and false teachers, He responded with righteous fury and bold conviction. I guess you would probably consider Him to be a hypocrite who is confrontational under the guise of love too.
ReplyDeleteTo Anon 8/14/2019 @ 5:53 AM
Here's how the Cambridge English Dictionary defines trolling: the act of leaving an insulting message on the internet in order to annoy someone.
If you call me refuting LCG's claims with the truth as leaving an insulting message, then yeah I'm trolling.
To Anon 8/14/2019 @ 8:41 AM
I haven't deleted any comments yet.
To ilija 8/13/2019 @ 9:46 PM - You obviously don't even know me.
Ultimately, none of you reached out to me via e-mail to talk with me. None of you are posting on this blog with you're real identities. You just want to sling insults, and that shows your character.....COWARDS.