I am currently on vacation through the Southwest and spent a couple days in Monument Valley. I booked a half-day tour several months ago through one of the local guides. Today when I arrived for the tour it was just two of us and we set off.
He shared stories of life as a Navajo Indian. Then things got interesting He said his grandmother got hooked into the Seventh Day Adventist Church decades ago and it basically destroyed her relationship with other family members. Relationships in the family are central to the Navajo. people. The arrogant minter demanded that she ignore everything she had grown up with as a Navajo and devote her life ito sabbath keeping, vegatarianism and preparing for the end times.
The guide said that the Navajo do not focus upon the end times and find it insulting to the Creator that they have to worry about it.
I mentioned to him that I grew up in a splinter group of Aventistism called Armstrongism. He had heard of it. He said it was equally offensives to them as a people. There were some ensnared in it for a while.
It is interesting to see how far the tentacles of Armstrongism reached and how in 2019 it has virtually disappeared.
What blasphemy to have this coyote minister preach against the consumption of the great Buffalo.
ReplyDeleteKidding aside. Great thing you hired a local guide there. I love it.
Read how the Australians separated did aboriginal children from their parents in order to "civilize" them.
BTW my 7th day mum and sisters were forced to also play with the native children by their non discriminatory parents.
My mum got hampered by the entire experience either from their families poverty, the ensuing discrimination from all sides by playing with the aboriginals or other factors.
No one should force anything on children. Not even good things.
Nck
Never could understand how the American Indians could accept the white mans religion. The white man killed their people, broke treaty's, lied and swindled them to no end. And I might add, this continues on even today.
ReplyDeleteEnjoying your pics on FB of your trip. Beautiful and peaceful country. I passed through Arizona and New Mexico last month on trip back form Oregon to SC. I was all alone early in the morning at Meteor Crater and it had quite an "impact" on me! lol. It's 44,000 thousand years older than the earth itself :)
ReplyDeleteThe last thing Native Americans want to think about is their history with Christian Missionaries. It has a troubling past.
“Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?” – Sogoyewapha, “Red Jacket,” Seneca
"The Indian never hurts anything, but the white people destroy all ... How can the spirit of the earth like the white man? That is why God will upset the world - because it is sore all over. Everywhere the white man has touched it, it is sore."
Pretty Shield
"We know you highly esteem the kind of learning taught in these colleges. And the maintenance of our young men, while with you, would very expensive to you. We're convinced, therefore, that you mean to do us good by your proposal, and we thank you heartily. But you who are so wise must know that different nations have different conceptions of things. And you will not, therefore, take it amiss if our ideas of this kind of education happens not to be the same with yours.
We have had some experience of it. Several of our young people were formerly brought up in the colleges of the northern province. They were instructed in all your sciences. But when they came back to us, they were bad runners, ignorant of every means of living in the woods, unable to bear either cold or hunger, knew neither how to build a cabin, take a deer, or kill an enemy, spoke our language imperfectly, and therefore were neither fit for hunters, warriors, nor councilors. They were totally good for nothing.
We are, however, not the less obliged for your kind offer, though we decline accepting. To show our grateful sense of it, if the gentlemen of Virginia shall send us a dozen of their sons, we would take great care in their education, instruct them in all we know, and make men of them."
Onondaga Chief Canassatego
The Indian never hurts anything, but the white people destroy all
ReplyDeleteCertainly the European settlement of North America was filled with bloodshed and cruelty. But with perhaps the exception of the Hopi (who themselves were continually harassed by the Navajo), it is insane to say that "the Indian never hurts anything." Not only was there inter-tribal violence and war unlike anything seen between contending states in Europe; the Indians were not the wise stewards of pristine land management that modern propaganda often makes them out to be. One reason why some tribes were so mobile is that they had a habit of settling in one location for a generation or two, denuding the land of its flora and fauna, and then having to move on again to spoil a new location.
Settling and moving sounds in principle, 4:37, like crop rotation. It’s good sustainable stewardship in that it allows the once settled area to recover and rejuvenate. You need to listen to the Nuge’s “Great White Buffalo” from the Double Live Gonzo album to get you into the spirit! Or “Fred Bear” from Spirit of the Wild!
DeleteBB
The effects of Armstrongism hasn't disappeared to those of us still currently being impacted by it from spouses and other family members. Its just as painful and debilitating to our relationships as it was 50 years ago. It's just done under a new header with a different name.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't agree more.
Delete" "The Indian never hurts anything, but the white people destroy all..." "
ReplyDeleteYeah, right.
American Indians make Hitler look like a choirboy. Pop culture likes to portray them as peace loving, earth loving, simple hunter/gathers, doing no damage and leaving no trace. They were savage to each other, and anyone they perceived as invading their territory. They had no reservations about modifying the land to suit their desires.
Like Hitler, and the rest of us, Jesus Christ is their only hope, they just don't know it yet. Some have an awareness of God, but they don't know what He expects of them. They will learn at the proper time.
September 26, 2019 at 6:48 AM
ReplyDeleteWhite mans religion. Many cannot accept the catholic book known as the bible as the word of the creator.
In the bible, how many people are killed by 'God" and how many lives are snuffed out by Satan?
Then ask yourself who is more loving?
I have known Native Americans within the WCG. This includes some Navajos who attended the Albuquerque WCG regularly. Once in a while, Navajo WCG members would show up from deep in the reservation at Albuquerque church services. That they were out there in this vast land was always surprising to me.
ReplyDeleteI feel sorry for Native Americans snared by Armstrongism. For Native Americans to be involved in Armstrongism is a tragic and ironic study in self-condemnation. It is very different from being engaged in Seventh Day Adventism. To my knowledge the SDA church has no deprecatory policies against Native Americans.
The WCG believed Native Americans to be Canaanites biologically and that they should have been exterminated by the White settlers who came to North America as prescribed by god in the Old Testament to Israel. The WCG advocated this principle ideologically if not pragmatically. At the same time, the WCG did not believe in bearing arms or participating in warfare. There is a tension between these two viewpoints that has never been resolved within the WCG. Some of the logical conclusions that could be drawn are absurd and Nazi-like. Consequently, Native American Armstrongists, if they think about it, do not know their status in "god's only true church."
I think the view point most likely to come from this in the general Armstrongist population, and I have taken no surveys, is conveyed in the statement: "Native Americans should have been killed off but I am not going to do it because I am not supposed to bear arms. But I am happy and proud that the early "Israelite" settlers killed as many as they did. And if there are Native American church members around, I am going to make sure they know that they are much inferior to me."
The fact that Armstrongists could leave this an unresolved issue for so long indicates either a gross insensitivity or a desire to appease the racist inclinations of some of their ministers and lay members.
Most of the Native Americans I know, and it is many, are Protestants or Catholics. They are not followers of ancient tribal gods and in most cases know very little about their tribe's early religious beliefs. In the tribe I am most familiar with, the name of the ancient tribal god is thought by tribal members to be just another name for the Christian god.
"Not only was there inter-tribal violence and war unlike anything seen between contending states in Europe"
ReplyDeleteThis statement is patently false. Indians were territorial and warlike. Neighboring tribes might have different languages, different religions, different customs and claims to the same lands. Friction was inevitable. They fought low technology wars and casualties were limited.
In World War II alone, an estimated 50 million europeans were killed. This number likely exceeds the number of Indians that were alive on the North American continent in 1492.
This statement is one of the arguments Armstrongists used to cite to justify the destruction of Native Americans. Somehow it was an act of kindness on the part of "Israel" to exterminate Native Americans because they were so degenerate.
Pack, Flurry, Thiel, Malm , Weinland and the rest , speak such gibberish that even the NAVAJO CODE TALKERS are unable to figure it out, or translate!
ReplyDeleteThe Mormons believe that the Native American Peoples are actually the "Lost 10 Tribes" ! How is that for a really bizarre twist that even makes BI seem tame and more rational!
ReplyDeleteWhy is it that any time anyone admires or praises someone of a different culture or background around here, some asshole has to respond by dropping trou and taking a verbal dump all over them? As somewhat of a globalist, a citizen of the world and admirer of all people and cultures, I will never understand that mentality. Is it part of the post-Armstrongism hangover? If so, take a damn Excedrin and STFU while you get over it!
ReplyDeleteThe worst thing HWA ever did was to replace songs we grew up singing like “Jesus Loves the Little Children” (which promotes understanding) with all the Dwight downer hymns in the Purple Joy-killer!
BB
The great enlightened white Dennis said, "The last thing Native Americans want to think about is their history with Christian Missionaries."
ReplyDeleteThe arrogant ministurd thinks he can speak for all Native Americans. Many of us our thankful and joyful to be Christians and don't need the inept Dennis to speak for us.
Thats a nice trek, Gary.
ReplyDeleteJAL NAL
ReplyDeleteI find your use of the term "ministurd" to be offensive, whether in reference to Dennis or anyone else. And Indians did have much trouble with missionaries - this historical fact is unrelated to your modern joy in Christ.
BB wrote:
ReplyDelete"Why is it that any time anyone admires or praises someone of a different culture or background around here, some asshole has to respond by dropping trou and taking a verbal dump all over them? As somewhat of a globalist, a citizen of the world and admirer of all people and cultures, I will never understand that mentality. Is it part of the post-Armstrongism hangover? If so, take a damn Excedrin and STFU while you get over it!
I put that through just because the present-day COG people are so willing to smear other peoples beliefs because they are the "enlightened ones" with the "truth." I am in contact with people of other faiths almost on a daily basis. Many of them have a far better relationship with God than many COG members do, regardless of whether they re Muslim, Jewish or many of the eastern religions. It is fascinating observing the culture and the diversity in how people relate to a creator. From the various Navajo guides I have had on this trip, they have a much deeper relationship with the Creator than any current COG leader does.
"
Absolutely true, Gary. Natives are also better guardians of the land. There was a huge protest of the Dakota Access Pipeline back in 2019. One of my friends/customers, a young Navajo lady, kept me updated on it. Members of her family and tribe went up there to join in, and they had firehoses turned on them in the freezing cold weather. The cops embargoed the group so that nobody could bring them food or water, and bunches of people were arrested and injured in the process. We know from news events that gas and oil pipelines do rupture or leak, and the tribes were adamant about not letting that happen on their sacred lands. Oil pollutes the water table for years.
DeleteWe speak of love for God and love for fellow man, but in most Native cultures, land is also sacred, to be respected and preserved.
We in our present times have a relatively recent and unique opportunity. The people around the world whom we studied in school in Social Studies class now live amongst us so that we can actually interact with them and get to know and appreciate them. Naturally, as with anything else, there will be some whom we enjoy more, and others we’re not quite as keen on, but one of life’s adventures has always been discovering the things you like, or that resonate with you.
BB
BB noted: " I will never understand that mentality. Is it part of the post-Armstrongism hangover?"
ReplyDeletePretty much. I refer to it as PTSD, Post Theological Stress Disorder. There is, of course, a racist and very White thread that runs through the Churches of God to this day. The British Israelism baloney was never going to go well for Native Americans either as they were considered the Philistines of the day to be expunged from the Holy Land.
Just look at this post. Gary posts his inspiring pictures of the West with his impression of current Native American discussions with actual Native Americans and a song breaks out over here on how bad they "really" were. I post actual quotes from actual Native Americans on their actual feelings and experiences as a culture with White Europeans back in the day, and again, the Native Americans end up the bad guys.
Custer got what he deserved...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDelete"I have known Native Americans within the WCG. This includes some Navajos who attended the Albuquerque WCG regularly."
ReplyDeleteI've just known too many white people who insisted their grandmother was a "Cherokee princess". DNA tests are giving most of those people mental breakdowns now. :)
Dennis, when my son was very young, in the pre-internet days, I used to take him to the library from time to time. We’d get him set up with some reading materials that he would enjoy or needed for projects and then I would search out materials of interest to me. On one occasion, and this had to have been sometime in the mid 1980s, I was in a section of books related to what we then mostly called American Indians. Bobby had asked me about Sacagawea, whom they were studying at school, and his question had ignited one of my own frequent interests.
ReplyDeleteI remember picking up a book that related to religious interactions amongst the Indians and the religious leaders of the day. The book stated that it was a common belief amongst the English bishops and elders that Native American religion was based upon unwitting worship of demons. I remember being quite shocked, because those misimpressions from colonial times seemed so much in tune with the attitudes and beliefs which were contemporary to the twentieth century attitudes of the WCG ministry! And, such beliefs, whether deliberately, ignorantly, or falsely held due to misconception, led to much malignant treatment blanketly applied to an entire race of people. It is partially why the offspring of Native Americans were removed from their families and homes, and placed in boarding schools for years, and then returned to their families following reeducation. This continued until the recent past. One of my friends as a young girl had been sent to such a boarding school. When we were getting to know each other, she had asked me if I had had to go to boarding school. Oddly enough, I was able to relate, because although it wasn’t exactly the same thing, SEP and Ambassador College, where they taught us “how to live” worked along the same principle.
One would think that having experienced the indignities of being part of a hated religious minority ourselves, all of us would have great compassion for others who had suffered abuse from the mainstream. My friends of different ethnicities were of great help to me in realizing so many things about ignorant societal attitudes, and about myself and my position amongst fellow humans as I went through my recovery from Amstrongism. There was greater acceptance of my differences and quirks than what I experienced from my supposed “own” people. However, I realize today that unfortunately, victims often turn and become predators themselves, inflicting their own bad experiences upon others. We saw a lot of that in Armstrongism and still do apparently today. I’m just glad that I either had the common sense to take a better path, or was guided and assisted along that better path.
BB
NEO
ReplyDeleteAll this talk of WWCG members being closet native American genocidalists is nonsense. I spent 8 years attending church services, and never once sensed your claims. Native Americans aren't on ordinary peoples mental radar. The only time people think of Indians is when they watch movies such as The Last of the Mohicans. BTW, the hero was a Indian.
"However, I realize today that unfortunately, victims often turn and become predators themselves, inflicting their own bad experiences upon others."
ReplyDeleteThat statement coming from you is hilarious, being one of the main characters here inflicting your own bad experiences on others in the cog. While I know you're not too dumb to recognize this fact, you're just too arrogant to realize that you've just painted a portrait of yourself.
Are you the Asperger guy from the other post? Why don’t you read the response I made to you there? And, my advice remains the same. Get yourself checked out. With proper medical care and therapy, you can learn to live with your condition.
DeleteIn case you think that is ad hominem, please reflect on one of the all-time Banned classics: “It is not possible to make an ad hominem attack on an anonymous poster!”
BB
Anon 12:48 wrote:
ReplyDelete"All this talk of WWCG members being closet native American genocidalists is nonsense. I spent 8 years attending church services, and never once sensed your claims. Native Americans aren't on ordinary peoples mental radar."
Just so. The problem is that this is on nobody's radar. You may have spent your 8 years rubbing elbows every Sabbath with people who believed in genocide but they never mentioned it. And nobody then ever asked them about why they believed such a horrendous idea. My experience was that this idea was a part of Armstrongist indoctrination and would emerge when conditions were right. I have had members of the WCG tell me that Native Americans should have been exterminated with almost a light-hearted attitude - as if they could not really weigh the gravity of what they were saying - it was just something a minister said - like an anecdote.
Not every member was exposed to this idea. Some were exposed to it but didn't care so don't remember it. If you want your eyes opened, write to some minister who is "strong for Israel" like one of the southern guys on the UCG Council of Elders and ask him what he thinks about Native Americans and whether or not they should have been exterminated. I think he will update your viewpoint.
Let me put this in a different context. Maybe this will be easier for people who have been indoctrinated by Armstrongism to grasp if I take it out of the Armstrongist context.
ReplyDeleteWhat if there were a faction within the Methodist Church that believed that all Japanese should have been exterminated. When discovered, this would cause the leadership of the Methodist Church to be outraged, filled with shame, discouraged at how such inhumaneness could have grown up right in front of them. It would occasion serious self-examination. Maybe workshops would be conducted for the poor souls who believed in the genocide of the Japanese. For the unrepentant there would be excommunication. There would be worry that this horrific information might even reach the news media and cause the unbelievers to blaspheme.
In sharp contrast, the Armstrongist churches know that there are people who have believed for years in such ideas as the genocide of Native Americans sitting in their congregations. But what have they ever done about it? I think you can begin to see the picture.
Then again, the Methodists are Christians and the Armstrongists are not. This is at the heart of the matter.
NEO
NEO, it's good to know that God has entrusted you with knowing who is a Christian and who isn't. Kinda makes you proud doesn't it?
ReplyDeleteNEO
ReplyDeleteGreat analogy. I think I understand an out "segments" now.
On behalf of everyone on this blog I apologize for the small insane segment and lying warped bastards that try and impose their warped history on the greater segment.
It was so much fun at SEP to learn about riflery and archery in remembrance of the great deeds versus the cannanites.
Also the daily and weekly pondering on the Holly writ...... "and on the 8th day God created the Remington rifle.... so man could fight the dinosaurs and gays..........."
Nck
I still think the k in nck is for Kitchen!
ReplyDeleteBB
BB, nah, NCK seems too intelligent to be a Kitchen. When Samuel posts it makes no sense at all.
ReplyDeletekm