Is it healthy or even wise for the focus of any church to be the Second Coming of Jesus? After 2000 years the concept of "soon", "shortly" and "quickly" have long since faded in reality. The First Century Apostles were clearly mistaken about Jesus returning soon, although that is the constant theme of all of the New Testament Gospels, Epistles and Letters.
The Apostle Paul made the point to the Church back in his times that "we shall not all die, but we shall all be changed" (I Cor. 15:51). Of course he was mistaken and he died as well just as all others who just knew Jesus would return for them died over the past two millenia. Lives back then were put on hold in anticipation of the soon coming event. The Church, for a short time as it was intended to be, held all things in common because "time was short." That practice was never intended as a long term approach to church practice. It faded when two things happened. Jesus did not return and more wealthy educated Greeks came into the church and weren't about to give their wealth to the church in such a practice.
It is and was not just the Worldwide Church of God that heavily emphasised the soon and imminent coming of Jesus. The Adventists, for decades, have made prophecy of Jesus coming again a focal point in their evangelizing. The Book of Revelation, as still today in the splits and splinters, is THE go to proof that we are in the end times still and again. It, however, never really seems to be true and one generation after the next has been left disappointed if not dis-illusioned over the issue.
So obvious was the non-return of Jesus and the coming of an earthly Kingdom of God to overcome
all human governments that Church doctrine began to evolve to reflect this reality. In time, Christians were going to simply die and go to Heaven. (Or Hell) and it didn't matter if Jesus came literally to earth or not anymore. Some teach that humans hang out ever dead in the grave until the Second coming and then it all works out just fine for most. As a kid I always wondered just how the sea could give up it's dead when there is nothing left to give up no doubt. I supposed their spirits just hung out on the bottom awaiting their time to return.
So I ask..
Is it wise, seeing that Jesus has not returned soon, quickly or really shown anyone the things which must shortly come to pass, now 2000 years ago, to keep holding it out as the carrot on the stick to get people interested in church? The night was not really far spent as noted in the New Testament nor "the hour now is" that wasn't.
I know we're all very familiar with...
"Verily I say unto you", This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Matthew 24:34).
We simply have to admit, at face value, Jesus was wrong and not only DID that generation pass away, but so have countless others that followed. Jesus has not been misunderstood in this statement. He was wrong. Sincere not doubt and it simply will not go into the bible-reader mind that this might be the simple truth of the matter. There has to be another explanation that makes Jesus right in this perspective not 2000 years past.
And there is! We have read it wrong. Jesus did not mean what he said and we can relax. Jesus wasn't talking to those people at that juncture in history.
"This generation" was not the one Jesus was talking TO, but rather the generation that "these things" would begin to happen IN. Whew! It's in the far future and means a future society when all these signs accelerate and come to a crashing finale ending with the Second Coming.
We now have wiggle room to account for the fact that Jesus has not returned yet. Jesus wasn't mistaken about his own times, he was referring to another time.
Gleason Archer, who offers this solutions to the "Jesus didn't mean it would be in his time," notes accurately what we all know 2000 years later.
"Obviously these apocalyptic scenes and earth-shaking events did not take place within the generation of those who heard Christ's Olivet discourse. Therefore Jesus could not have been referring to his immediate audience when He made this prediction..." (Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties, pg 338).
Archer has to say this as he cannot possibly entertain the idea that Jesus was himself wrong in his perceptions of the times in which he lived and his role in those times. Later in the Gospels, authors would lower the expectations of the early Church, who thought Jesus meant them by reminding them late in the game when it was obvious Jesus wasn't coming any time soon that "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years. Sorry, we forgot to tell you that in the beginning." As long as one is incapable of thinking Jesus was himself wrong the Kingdom of God being just around the corner if he did his part, the doctrine of disappointments would have to be addressed as time went on.
And so we simply need to ask a very simple question. To whom was Jesus speaking? From the opening NT texts, it is obvious that the disciples, apostles and members of the church thought it meant THEM and did not get any hint of Jesus meaning anything other than THEM in THEIR time, which was short. The idea that Jesus would "build my Church" came decades after Jesus death when most were dead or dying of old age and yet the end did not come. Jesus never envisioned a Church that would follow decades and millennia after his death. Jesus life would always be lived and lost in the context of Judaism and the Synagogue.
But back to the original question. To whom was Jesus speaking when he said the words and to whom did he mean for it to apply? The answer is within the context, plain and simple.
"Take heed that no man deceive you." (Matt 24:4)
"...ye shall hear of wars, and rumors of wars..." (Matt 24:6)
"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted..." (Matt 24:9)
"When ye therefore shall see the the abomination of desolation..." (Matt 24:15)
"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter..." (Matt 24:20)
"Behold, I have told you before." (Matt 24:25)
"...ye shall hear of wars, and rumors of wars..." (Matt 24:6)
"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted..." (Matt 24:9)
"When ye therefore shall see the the abomination of desolation..." (Matt 24:15)
"But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter..." (Matt 24:20)
"Behold, I have told you before." (Matt 24:25)
The context in which Jesus spoke was his own. The "you" that he was addressing was the group he was addressing then and the group to which all these things would happen for, and soon. Jesus was telling those disciples that these things would happen in their time. Jesus made a mistake in his perceptions.
In our time, Christians read the same words and see the "ye" and "you" as "me" and "us" just as the original disciples would have. The only difference is that the disciples actually were disappointed and this generation has yet to realize their own disappointment to come.
The proof that Jesus himself meant the people he was talking to is found in the fact that the "this generation" comment is actually the tale end of a much larger, often overlooked quote taken in it's entirety.
"So likewise YE when YE shall SEE ALL these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto YOU, THIS generation shall not pass, till ALL these things be fulfilled." (Matt 24:33-24 emphasis mine)
There is no reason to twist the words of Jesus to mean more than they were ever intended to mean. A scripture can never mean what it never meant. The early disciples and infant Church, knew it meant them and we see the gradual deterioration of their personal confidence in the immediacy of the Second Coming promise throughout the NT.
I Thessalonians 4:15-17 "...For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout...Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..." Meaning...some would die, but not us who tell you this. Jesus still means us.
I Corinthians 15:51,52 "...We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump..." Meaning...you will die, but we won't but it all works out...Jesus still meant us.
Romans 13:11-12 "And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand..." Meaning...we had some doubts, but now we know it's almost here. Jesus still meant us.
James 5:8 "Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." Meaning...impatience was growing, hang in there. Jesus still meant us.
I John 2:18 "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." Meaning...Jesus still meant us.
I Peter 4:7 "But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer."
Revelation 22:20 "He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly...." Meaning...ok, it's been about 60 years, but Jesus still means us.
Obviously, everyone of these quoted hopes and statements were wrong. Jesus did not return for them and to date has not returned for anyone. Paul and the early church who wrote in his name was just as wrong as the many COG prophetic types are wrong in this time. And it is based on the fact that Jesus himself was wrong which I know most Christians can never come to admit.
So again I ask, Is it wise of the Splits and Splinters or any Church for that matter to promote the "soon" and "quickly" of Jesus imminent return with now 2000 years of proof that it simply was not so for those to whom the promises were actually made? Is this not obviously something that is simply not true. Does it not promote more skepticism than hope and doubt than encouragement? Are fear, guilt and shame along with the "Jesus is coming soon" the only motivators for the faith?
Question was asked: "Is it healthy or even wise for the focus of any church to be the Second Coming of Jesus?"
ReplyDeleteObviously, from a Biblical point of view, the answer is "No," b/c that phrase "the Second Coming," or even "Second Coming," is nowhere to be found in the Bible.
Other than that, is it healthy or even wise to focus on that question?
Time will tell...
John
I think we have seen this diatribe before. The short answer to a long statement is that Matthew 24 is divided into two parts. The parts are:
ReplyDelete1. The Tribulation - dealing with the events of 70 AD.
2. The Eschaton - dealing with the return of Christ.
Both have separate chronological statements and it is easy to get the chronologies mixed up - which this post from Diehl does. As regards the Tribulation, it was to happen soon - within a generation - and it did. As regards the Eschaton, Christ said only the Father knew the schedule.
The waters are further muddied by religionists like Armstrong and LeHaye who have moved the Tribulation, which already happened in 70 AD, to the end of days where it does not belong.
To the point, religions should not focus on the return of Christ and mainstream Christianity does not. Nobody follows the confused version of the End of Days as closely as right wing evangelicals and atheists. This focus is a fund-raising, fearmongering diversion that has been manipulated by some organizations quite effectively.
So John, when Jesus said "I will come again" that doesn't mean a second coming just because it doesn't use those exact words? Your argument is just playing in the technicalities because the cog believes that it was the one who became Jesus who knelt in the dirt of Eden, who met with Abraham, who wrestled with Jacob, so we all know it's not technically his second coming but we all know what is meant by the phrase.
ReplyDeleteKinda reminds me of the acogs arguing against the rapture because the word rapture isn't in the bible. That's a foolish argument because rapture merely means a catching up or taking up and I Thes. 4 clearly teaches a rapture or a taking up to the clouds to meet Jesus. The acogs go crazy being anti-rapture when they should just make it clear that the bible doesn't teach a "secret" rapture, but it does indeed teach a rapture.
Much like the radical anti going to heaven craziness in the acogs when they teach that we'll become spirit but we're not going to heaven, just what is going to keep spirit beings bound to earth? Do we have to wait 1,000 years to meet the Father? The teaching became crazy because of an incorrect teaching that "we will reign ""on"" the earth" but the Greek word can also be translated "over". We shall reign over the earth and we can do it from heaven aka New Jerusalem.
It's amazing how people let ignorant ideas carry their beliefs to radical extremes.
Kevin
NEO, can't wait for your next " diatribe" on Halogroup j and Neanderthals
ReplyDeleteAnd too NEO, no one in the first century took Matt 24 as a two part now and who knows when writing. No man might know day or hour said Gospel Jesus because the Gospels were written long after Paul's soon and death as well as the Epistles. The no one knows came after they tired of the mistaken notions of the early church and Apostles. By then noticers now were scoffers and days became as a thousand years, which we forgot to tell you back before we had to make up an apologetic for short going way long.
ReplyDeleteIt's true that Christ's second coming has been abused by religious leaders to financially milk and bully their members. But that doesn't mean that Christ will never return. As I've posted before, the holy spirit has informed me that I will live to see the tribulation, and I am in my 60s. So it can't be that far off.
ReplyDeleteThat Satan collaborator Dennis Diehl has written this article, with more to come, so close to the feast of Tabernacles, is to be expected. It must be deeply disturbing for
him, knowing that he won't experience the millennium. If I was him, I would dedicate my few remaining years to "wine, women and song."
Any life, even one that lives on into their 90s is actually very short. Our Deaths come quickly and soon.
ReplyDeleteLife is but a blink of a moment. The "Coming of Jesus" is very soon by that viewpoint, and perspective.
Are you asking: Are fear, guilt and shame along with the "Jesus is coming soon" the only motivators for the faith or is it fear , guilt and shame are the evidence along with "soon" having passed, all being the criteria for a false faith?
ReplyDeleteAfter many years of myself being in fear of is that scripture a failed scripture and by extension a failed savior and by the ultimate extension a whole failed religion, I had to come to a conclusion at some time in my life. That scripture and the ones related spoken directly by the one claimed to be Jesus Christ hinges for me whether what I believe is either all truth, or just a massive lie.
Did that generation pass before all those things which they heard were fulfilled? A question I could never answer for myself after how many years in the WCG.
The Apostle Paul made a statement to the Hebrews framed as a warning. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they .......... So there some people that fall into this category and many visit this site often.
Dismissing the timeline of what the WCG and its splinters has taught as fact, it is fairly easy to walk yourself through the pages of the bible and understand just what was the emphasis of the men who witnessed the resurrection. And for that matter, understand what was the emphasis of the gospel message that they risked their lives proclaiming.
The answer to that most pertinent question of did that generation pass until all those things were fulfilled is no they didn't because all of them are going to be resurrected to see all those things fulfilled. For a people in this age who have experienced cars and big trucks go right through them causing no harm or damage or a people who have seen four cakes a pie and a chicken feed 150 people or a people who have been healed of multiple diseases or a people who have seen money appear out of nowhere or multiply before there eyes or a people that have seen a life entity created and appear suddenly out of nowhere, the resurrection of all of Israel is a foregone conclusion.
So is it wise to promote the second coming of Christ as soon to those in the COGs? No if it is Dave Pack who perverts the whole concept of it and makes it all about elevating himself and all about him getting all the money. Yes, if many want to take out the warning from the Deacon Stephen in Acts 7:37-43. For it is easy to say now, as for this Jesus (Moses), which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we know not what has become of him. And to then make idols unto ourselves and to rejoice in the works of our hands.
Paul's warning stands more clear than ever for today; for having seen, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
The answers to your questions are clear for those that see and know.
I guess according to NEO these events happened 1950 years ago.
ReplyDeleteMat 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 - And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Damn those Armstrongists for not listening to NEO!
Dennis - your big mistake is writing that Jesus said these things. Jesus did not write any of the scriptures.
ReplyDeleteThe Gospels and Acts are reports by others on what happened. I don't think our news media suddenly became corrupt today. We have always had fake news and misleading news.
Would the religious and Roman leaders of that time really have been so unimpressed by all the recorded miracles, and been badgering for a sign?
If anyone today went around healing people and raising people from the dead, do you think they would be opposed?
Let me know if you come across a true miracle worker. I am willing to travel to wherever they are.
TLA I fully understand they. Thus I refer to "Gospel Jesus" as the one anonymous authors and no eyewitnesses came up with. I have no confidence on the literal existence of Gospel Jesus
ReplyDeleteDennis, my question to you is 'Is it wise to place so much emphasis on the English translation of "we shall"?' If you actually look at the Greek are you able to verify that Paul is meaning the inclusive "we" rather than a general statement meaning those alive at the time?
ReplyDeleteBasing a church culture largely on a soon-coming tribulation and a guessed timeline for something that Jesus clearly stated was unknowable by humans produced a litany of totally unnecessary bad and evil in all of our lives. I've said many times that we would have been much better off (and less disappointed!) had we as a group concentrated on Christian living principles instead.
ReplyDeleteSadly, though, HWA had his "hook". It was blatant coercion. We as a group made a big decision under duress, and from that point forward, most of our decisions were made in advance for us, also under duress. There is far more purity, clarity, and sincerity if decisions are made voluntarily as opposed to being made as a result of entrapment. If indeed Armstrongism was "Christian", it was low-grade "save your ass" Christianity.
Growing up in R/WCG in the '60s, prior to the great disappointment of 1975, I believed that at best I would only ever attain the age of 27. That produced the attitudes best expressed by Bob Dylan and Jimi Hendrix in "All Along the Watchtower" that life was but a joke. It meant blowing off further aptitude-based education because the only thing that really counted was an Ambassador education, and taking part in the last ditch effort of warning the world of the Armstrong apocalypse. It meant getting in marriage so as not to miss out, rather than carefully planning a partnership with someone with whom you could actually build something that would last for decades, and nurture the next generation. It meant practicing conditional love, that is learning to separate oneself emotionally and often physically from non-members, and to treat them instead as people whom God was punishing, or soon would be punishing. It also taught us not to "lay in store" goods or physical wealth for hard times. No need to accumulate experience that would prepare us for future leadership roles. Because we were members of the right club, God would pour this into our consciousness, as with a funnel, in the future, simply because we obeyed and paid.
Is it any wonder that 44 years after the fact, some people would be angry, and others just confused, disillusioned, and dying without ever experiencing the fulfillment of the coercion? Leaving in 1975 was not an entirely easy thing. In the early years, I was still occasionally thinking "What if, in spite of all the evidence against, these people end up somehow being right?" It has required a lifetime of recovery and additional education, but I no longer harbor such thoughts. HWA's message was time and date stamped, and has expired in so many ways. There is no such thing as church eras, but if there were, and if WCG was Philadelphian, the Laodiceans who followed have allowed ego-based splintering to diffuse any endtime message into obscurity. The commission has been rendered impotent, and has been lost. Figuratively, an Elisha who did greater works than Elijah has never surfaced.
What would have brought many more people into the church would have been a solid and consistent demonstration that Armstrongism was a viable, functional, superior way of life, one that produced enlightened, transcendent behavior. A set of positives one can actually feel by the seat of the pants is much more effective than the constant threat of unimaginable punishment. It was, after all, the Holocaust which caused the prevalence of agnosticism amongst Jews, a trend which lasts even today.
BB
Dennis you ask a good question.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn’t matter to me how we interpret the return of Christ, the millennium, the world tomorrow or the tribulation. When I came into the church in 1964, the sermons were always about the end times. In 1964 while at AC, I was told over and over that I probably would not get married and if there was enough time left to get married, there would not be time enough to have children. Then later if you had children they would never go to school. A chart was published showing the church would flee in 1972 and Christ would return in 1975. I got the chart in my epistles of Paul class and pasted it on the back cover of my wide margin bible. Herbert preached the soon coming of Christ n the 60’s. Herbert preached the soon coming of Christ in the 70’s. Herbert preached the soon coming of Christ in the 80’s.. Then he died!
With that message constantly being preached why plan for anything? I don’t know why I didn’t wake up in 1975! I thought I was being faithful. I thought I was being loyal. I preached what I had been taught. I took being a minister seriously. I tried to give council that would help people. I visited drug addicts. I tried to help them. One addict I tried to help was stabbed to death in a drug deal gone bad. I had to work with and console a church member whose son was arrested for murder. I had to deal with child molestation. I knew I was incapable of handling these cases by myself. I encouraged drug and alcohol addicts to get professional help. The police were called in child molestation cases. I wasn’t interested in what people had in their kitchen. I wasn’t interested in if they used white flour or white sugar. I had to preach a funeral for a young girl who was run over by a car while walking to elementary school.
Jim-AZ. Continued
1004. I'm taking it as everyone I know takes it in the letter. We means us meaning them
ReplyDeleteThe Bible mentions very specific things to occur that only became possible after 1945.
ReplyDeleteHWA was very rational about the Bible.
The folks expecting the end in December 999 were just uneducated. :-)
Its called eschatology and it is huge its big its amazing its.......
Nck
DEnnis:
ReplyDeleteMy next diatribe on Neanderthals is coming up. But it won't be exactly the same thing I said last time.
"no one in the first century took Matt 24 as a two part now and who knows when writing."
Did you really know that many people in the first century? And should we let what they thought constrain hermeneutics now? All you have to do is analyze the straightforward language in Matt 24 to see the presence of two scenarios.
"The no one knows came after they tired of the mistaken notions of the early church and Apostles."
Whose time machine did you climb into to go back and find this out?
Anonymous 8:23
ReplyDeleteMatt 24:29 is allegory concerning the events of the Tribulation in 70 AD. Obviously, nobody believes that the "stars will fall from the sky" except in a poetic sense.
Matt 24:30 begins with, in your translation, "and then." I do not think the word "and" is there. "And" may seem to make a chronological connection to the previous verse to some readers. The word is actually just "then" and is indeterminate as to its precise timing. What meaning we can capture from this is that the Tribulation will happened in order first and the return of Christ will happen next. But it does not say when Christ will return.
Dennis - we also have letter writing Paul versus book of Acts Paul reported on by (we assume) Luke.
ReplyDeleteGospel by Luke haws miracles. Acts by Luke has miracles. Have to keep the miracles going baby!
Since no one is doing the signs below, can we conclude that God's true church does not exist today?
Mark 16 v15 to 18
15And then he told them, “Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone. 16Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned. 17These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages. 18They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won’t hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.”
It is my understanding that we have to try to understand the wording as it was understood in the day written. For instance, the word love, to us, means a deeply held feeling of affection for someone or something. Love is a noun, a thing, a feeling. But in ancient Israel, love was viewed as a verb, an action, not dependent upon feelings at all. When we are told to love our neighbors or husbands, love your wives, God isn't commanding us to feel a certain way. He is telling us how to act towards others, in spite of how we might feel. Jesus is coming "soon". The return of Jesus for his church, in what we call the Rapture, can be at anytime, it is imminent. It is not the same as "soon." The second coming has signs preceding it, the rapture does not. So, Jesus could come at anytime, we have to be prepared. It could be before you send off your credit card payment. The, the second coming has many events that precede it. Also, the term soon is relative. If you are choking you hope that someone is coming soon to perform the Heimlich maneuver on you. But, if you are in your fourth year of college, you graduation will be soon, but not as quickly as you hope someone arrives to save your from choking. Jesus said that some of his disciples will see the Kingdom. They did, a few verses later, they had a sneak preview of Jesus in his Glory as when he returns in what is called the Transfiguration. This is my understanding, as of today. But, I recognize that I've been very wrong before, for four years in the WCG. At least I've learned to be less dogmatic in my views.
ReplyDeleteJim-AZ
ReplyDeleteI also preached a funeral for a non member who’s husband was in the church. She had a brain aneurism and died suddenly. She left 6 young children and her husband. I preached her funeral on a Sunday morning at her local Baptist Church. Services were cancelled so I could preach the sermon. 4 black young women with a little spirit. There was some hand clapping and a few amends. After the service I think I shook hands and gave hugs to the entire congregation. My heart broke for her husband and kids. My wife and I had them over for dinner several times. I was a tragic time. Life wasn’t always peaches and cream.
I am glad for the Tkach apostasy. I walked away in 1995. I spent several months trying to figure out what to do and where to go. At first I was going to join one of the ACOGs but which one. I attended one for a couple of months but their condescending self righteous attitude made me sick. My wife and I said no thanks.... I got rid of my marked up wide margin Bible. I got one with no red, blue or yellow marks. I got rid of my stacks of WCG booklets and articles. I started reading the whole passages of the subject in the Bible. I read the before and after scriptures. I studied the old and New Testament. How did they apply to today. What was the message of the New Testament? I studied tithing, who paid it and to whom. I am not arguing or trying to convince anyone to come to the conclusion I came to. For me Armstrongism was a mixture of copying what others had written plus making scriptures fix his views. It’s a fraud.
I left Pasadena with no job, no place to live, a used car and very little money. I got a job, my wife got a job as temp. I had my wife and daughter to support. They were my friends. So I leaned what I should have known all along, your friends are those who you really know.
I started preparing for my future and my wife’s future. For me my tribulation was starring me in the face. My wife was taking a course training her for a profession. I got a job offer in another state which I accepted. She stayed to complete her course and I moved 900 hundred miles away. My wife was working and going to school. I was working. We saved everything we could. She got a room living with a lady. I got a small one bedroom apartment. Several times I drove 900 miles non stop back to be with my wife then after a couple of days drove back non stop to my job. Right before thanksgiving oh that year I got a kidney stone and one night at 1:00am drove myself to the hospital. I was operated on about 5:00 pm. I was kept overnight and about 8:00 released. I was told to go home and rest, take it easy for a couple of days. So I did, I went home, I drove non stop back to be with my wife. Got in about midnight.
To be cont.
Jim-AZ
One more after thought. I Cor 15:51 We shall not all die but we will be changed. The question is, "Who is being referred to as "We"? He is speaking of the living, compared with the dead. Paul may not be referring to him and his followers, but as a category, the living versus the dead. In other words, Whoever is alive at the time, along with whoever has already died, we will all be changed.
ReplyDeleteIt's good, Jim, that we would be reminded from time to time that there were ministers who were both sincere and compassionate, and who in fact did accomplish much good for the people they served, in spite of the flawed system in which we all found ourselves. While there were some who were mean-spirited or authoritarian, not all of the ministers fell into those two categories.
ReplyDeleteWhen I first started participating in COG-related forums, I really enjoyed the contributions of former ministers, because I saw them as being just as worthy of recovery as were the rest of us. To my way of thinking, they had helped us in getting into the mess, but being up the chain a bit, they had most likely experienced higher highs, and lower lows than the rest of us, and were therefore in a unique position to give us insights and to help us out of the mess.
If I were you, or Dennis, or Allen, or any others who haven't yet identified themselves as former ministers, and if I knew that I'd had a right attitude and had accomplished a lot of good, I'd most likely want to dwell on that good, and to be proud that I'd had the common sense to be a buffer rather than a tyrant. All of us have to buck systems from time to time throughout life, but unfortunately there will always be those who deal in guilt by association. Don't let those people rob you.
BB
"1004. I'm taking it as everyone I know takes it in the letter. We means us meaning them"
ReplyDeleteSo you can't or won't answer the qiestion?
BB
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think so many of the songs were based upon doom and gloom back then? It had to be more than just the Vietnam war, we've had several wars since without the same sense of the end coming. I think that with the bomb everyone thought we were near the "Eve of Destruction" not just the WCG.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend HWA or the WCG they were clearly wrong with the system they produced, but at the time that you were there that was the mindset of the country, especially the youth was it not? Even those not in the church didn't think they'd see adulthood.
Which is why I laugh at the millennials today who think things are so much worse than ever before. Hell, McDonald's was rarely hiring when I graduated High School in '82, $3.35 an hour jobs were few and far between. Maybe some of the millennials today should sit down and listen to some of those great songs like One Tin Soldier or this from ol' nasally Bob Dylan:
My name it is nothing, my age it means less
The country I come from is a part of the Free West
I was taught and brought up there its laws to abide
And that the land that I live in has God on its side
Oh the history books tell it, they tell it so well
The cavalries charged, the Indians fell
The cavalries charged, the Indians died
For the country was young with God on its side
Oh the first World War, it came and it went
The reason for fighting I never could get
But I learned to accept it, accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead when God's on your side
And then the second World War, it came to an end
We forgave the Germans and now we are friends
Though they murdered six million, in the ovens they fried
The Germans now, too, have God on their side
But now we have weapons of chemical dust
And if fire them we're forced to, why then fire them we must
One push of the button and a shot the worldwide
And you never ask questions when God's on your side
Though many a long hour I've thought on this
That Jesus Christ was betrayed by a kiss
But I can't think for you, you will have to decide
Whether Judas Iscariot had God on his side
And now as I leave you, I'm weary as hell
The confusion I'm feelin', there ain't no tongue can tell
The words fill my head and drop to the floor
That if God's on our side, he'll stop the next war.
km
Jim-AZ cont
ReplyDeleteByker Bob,
Thanks for the gracious comments you made.
My purpose for commenting on this topic is to encourage people to plan for the future. Don’t let any church paralyze you with a fear of the future. Continuing with my earlier comments, my wife and I got back together after about 7 months. By working hard we made a down payment on a home. I was able to pay it off in 2016. She retired in Oct 2016 and I retired in January 2017. Through savings, 401k and social security we are comfortable in our retirement. I try to help others when I can I try to be a good neighbor. As far as the future, I think there is a lot we don’t know. I don’t believe there is a “special” people that will flee to “Petra” or any other place to be prepared to train others on how to rule over multiple cities. I accept the fact that I am getting older. Byker Bob, I had to give up my chopper Harley a few years ago. I still think I can ride but wife and daughter say no.
I used to have all the answers. Now not so much. I don’t worry about the future. I am sorry but we don’t have any modern day prophets. I like what Dennis writes. He makes me think. I have read what Jesus has been reported to have said. “When you have shown mercy, when you have shown kindness, when you have shown concern you have done it unto me”. I believe there are contradictions in the Bible. I don’t know if all the manuscripts that made it into the Bible are authentic. But I don’t care. I am going to live the best I can and as much as possible live up to what principles Jesus was reported to have said. The future will take care of itself.
Jim-AZ
Anon 8:08 says, "[T]he holy spirit has informed me that I will live to see the tribulation, and I am in my 60s. So it can't be that far off."
ReplyDeleteYes, Anon, the holy spirit has told you right. Except that your tribulation might not be like you expect. The holy spirit told my father he would live to fight in the Battle of Armageddon even though by U. S. Army standards he was way too old, and 4-F besides. He never had seen blood flowing as deep as the horses' bridles, and he looked forward to the sight with great eagerness. His actual tribulation consisted of lying flat of his back for months staring mindlessly at the nursing home ceiling. My mother did not expect to fight any Armageddon battles. Her tribulation was similar to his though mercifully briefer. She trusted that if she checked out before the return of Jesus, she would just lie there dead till she was resurrected when he came back. If that happens, I hope the timing is such that she does not have to witness me plunging into the Lake of Fire. She loved me, and I would hate to cause her distress.
Herbert, Rod, Herman, Garner Ted, Carl, and on and on also had their own tribulations, of diverse kinds. Jim-AZ tells us about a tribulation of his not leading up to his final quietus. You still have time for one or more of those. I can't prophesy what your tribulation(s) will be like, but it's certain you will experience at least one.
The fact that Herb used terror religion is an informal acknowledgement that the church authoritarian culture was contrary to human nature. It reminds me of a case of animal cruelty whereby a dog was kept in a small cage for a long period of time. Herbs "obey, yield, surrender, submit" was the human equivalent.
ReplyDeleteThe church giving the Japanese surrender at the end of WW2 as a type of conversion is deceitful. The context was war, and the only "unconditional surrender" was militarily. The American government had agree to honor the countries freedom of religion and culture. General MacArthur even gave the order that any military personal who struck a Japanese was to be given a 5 years prison sentence. Some Japanese publicly wept when McArthur left Japan. Can anyone visualize church members weeping on the departure of an authoritarian minister?
The question should be asked, did a historical Jesus even exist? If not then it is pointless to speculate when he will return if he didn't exist at all.
ReplyDeleteKevin, October 6, 2019 at 7:29 AM, wtote: "So John, when Jesus said "I will come again" that doesn't mean a second coming just because it doesn't use those exact words? Your argument is just playing in the technicalities because the cog believes that it was the one who became Jesus who knelt in the dirt of Eden, who met with Abraham, who wrestled with Jacob, so we all know it's not technically his second coming but we all know what is meant by the phrase...
ReplyDeleteIt's amazing how people let ignorant ideas carry their beliefs to radical extremes..."
Radical extremes? Look at the remaining fingers on your own hand, as you buy into that extreme view about your "second coming." Yes, you understand what a large number of people of this world thinks about it, but Christ did have a second coming. He returned to earth a second time after His resurrection, and visit to His Father in Heaven. He didn't remain there. The Bible gives lots of details about Christ after that second coming and provided more education for His disciples and witnessed to hundreds, if not thousands, of people for 40 days, but that's okay. Believe others and remain confused about Christ's comings. Radical?
Time will tell...
John
"The Holy Spirit has informed me....."
ReplyDeleteCan't you be more original than that? Herbert Armstrong, Rod Meredith, Gerald Flurry, David Pack, Bob Thiel, Ron Weinland, James Malm, Zerrubbabel, and countless Spokesman's Club washouts who aspire to become the Elvis of Armstrongism all claim similar inspiration, and all of them have been consistently proven wrong. So, why do you think that anyone would listen to an anonymous manure stirrer like yourself?
BB
Oh Dennis! You're so brilliant! Why are you trying to debunk something you don't get? To really be able to disprove what Jesus meant, you have to understand these passages and others like God being a jealous God. Without real insight, you're just a Don Quixote sparring with windmills.
ReplyDelete