When it was brought up here recently that COGWA was claiming its youth camps were celebrating 25 years, people were accused of lying.
Anyone who was ever part of the United Church of God at its inception experienced first hand the major upheaval when the vast majority of UCG ministers and a huge number of members left to join up with the newly formed Church of God a Worldwide Association. That date was December 23, 2010
Announcing theChurch of God, a Worldwide Association
Today we are announcing the formation of a new international congregation of believers, the Church of God, a Worldwide Association. Our church organization incorporated on December 23, 2010 and has members, congregations and ministers around the world.
The formation of the Church of God, a Worldwide Association, results from several fundamental disagreements within United Church of God, an International Association. After numerous efforts to engage in biblical resolutions and reconciliation, all efforts failed, and a separation became inevitable.Then on January 11, 2011, COGWA officially adopted their name
January 11, 2011 – The meetings began as Interim Board President Mike Hanisko called upon Kevin Epps for the opening prayer. Mr.Hanisko then announced the result of the ballot for our church name. Of the 118 ballots cast, 78 chose “Church of God, a Worldwide Association.” So our temporary name has now become our official name.Given that COGWA officially was incorporated with their new name in 2011, how can they in 2019 be celebrating 25 years of youth camps? Apparently, taking UCG's years of holding camps prior to them. they consider that part of their scorecard.
Nothing like setting an example for your youth in telling the truth...
From COGWA Facebook page
Based on the common COG belief that Jesus died in 31AD and the NT church began at Pentecost, are any of them claiming as the one true splinter, that they are 1,988 years old?
ReplyDeleteNot surprised. Those that left UCG were told untruths by those wanting to form a new organization
ReplyDeleteThe formation of COGWA was based on info that was not true
ReplyDeleteReally should have been named ... "CLOG-WAD" !
ReplyDeleteThey may not claim that, 2:57, but they most likely all believe it!
ReplyDeleteBB
Seems to be a common practice in the COG. Several LCG congregations celebrated their 25th anniversary in the last couple years, counting their years in Global, even though Rod Meredith sharply rebuked, abandoned, and condemned what Global had become. Similarly, several UCG congregations celebrated their 50th anniversary in the last few years, even though they sharply condemned what WCG had become and abandoned it. That's like the United States celebrating its 953rd birthday recently, dating back to 1066.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteThe formation of COGWA was based on info that was not true
Absoluely correct. COGWA was based on pure fraud. None of the accusations, concerns, and doctrinal rumors about UCG were true. They were just made up out of thin air to generate support for the COGWA movement. It was Joseph Goebbels' Nazi propaganda axiom at work. Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth. All the COGWA-ites should be ashamed they were so easily duped.
It sounds like an individual sought recognition of his or hers 25 years of service for those camps otherwise 25 is a "random" choice counting wcg youth camp history also.
ReplyDeleteIf we are at it, personally the "raised arm thing" in the picture is what attracts my attention. But that is a personal fetish.
Nck
I know some in cogwa could celebrate 45 years or more of involvement in youth camps, hence my joke. Of course the status of cog was not "an association" at the time but "one body we" (cogobw).
ReplyDeleteI of course enjoy this blogs legal (pharasaic, to the letter) interpretation very much whenever it surfaces. Iron sharpens iron.
Nck
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 4:31 PM said...“The formation of COGWA was based on info that was not true”
Godless perverts in the UCG getting their victims kicked out had something to do with the formation of COGWA.
Seems to be a recurring theme, at least with you.
Delete
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 7:14 PM said...“Absoluely correct. COGWA was based on pure fraud. None of the accusations, concerns, and doctrinal rumors about UCG were true. They were just made up out of thin air to generate support for the COGWA movement. It was Joseph Goebbels' Nazi propaganda axiom at work. Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth. All the COGWA-ites should be ashamed they were so easily duped.”
Do you expect to dupe everyone that easily?
Have you seen how totally godless and dishonest the UCG people are?
The “good” Nazi goon Victor Kubik, who was just doing his job for the apostate Tkaches, is now in charge of the UCG.
Case closed.
A bit like COGWA having "Friday Night Live" Bible studies online once a month, when they're really recorded in the middle of the week.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDeleteDo you expect to dupe everyone that easily?
Have you seen how totally godless and dishonest the UCG people are?
The “good” Nazi goon Victor Kubik, who was just doing his job for the apostate Tkaches, is now in charge of the UCG.
Case closed.
No, the case will never be closed. I have been following this blog for quite some time but have never commented. This person for sure is a COGWA "church" member. No, everyone was not duped. Just half of them, the ones who's hero is Jim Franks and the ones who followed family and friends to COGWA. Do you know how totally godless and dishonest the COGWA people are? I was in Houston at "church" services the day the shit hit the fan with the Tkach fiasco. Franks was conveniently out of town, meeting secretly "on a hunting trip". They had planned how to draw people out of WCG to form UCG. David Johnson was transferred to Baton Rouge where he preached the "new teachings" of the Tkaches. When he knew his days were numbered, He went with UCG, but the people in Baton Rouge wanted him no more. He was quickly transferred out of the "church" area by UCG HQ. Yes, they have "good" Nazi goons in COGWA as well. I have asked family members why they left UCG and went to COGWA. I have never yet been given a straight answer. They just tell me that the "ministers" in UCG are all liars. I keep telling them that ALL of them are liars in both camps. I would like to see a list of the accusations, concerns and doctrinal rumors against UCG.
I can see the motivation for why they prefer to write it this way, but it simply isn’t true. This calls their honesty and integrity into question.
ReplyDeleteI can see the motivation for why they prefer to write it this way, but it simply isn’t true. This calls their honesty and integrity into question.
ReplyDeleteA church founded by a salesman, stretching the truth. How unsurprising.
ReplyDelete7.14 PM is troll guy. He's the court jester of Banned.
"I have asked family members why they left UCG and went to COGWA. I have never yet been given a straight answer. They just tell me that the "ministers" in UCG are all liars. I keep telling them that ALL of them are liars in both camps. I would like to see a list of the accusations, concerns and doctrinal rumors against UCG."
ReplyDeleteAll you really had to do is look at who took over in UCG. Kubik was Tkaches right hand man firing ministers left and right for not preaching the "new truth" in the late WCG days. Holiday held a meeting of ministers before the official UCG formation which friends of mine attended. He said that they were forming a new organization that is going to accept all of the changes up to the Sabbath change. When he couldn't get buy in for that he contacted them all and told them that the new UCG would be teaching the traditional doctrines.
It's a matter of character...which they seem to have none!
True. Many faithful UCG members left for COGWA as a reaction to finding out about the double lives UCG Pastors are living.
DeleteSo, can anyone tell me WHAT the heck was the reason for the UCG - COGWA split?!
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 2:12 AM said...“No, the case will never be closed.”
Yes, indeed, the case has been closed, and no man can open it.
UCG insiders love to bang the drums of COGWA is a fraud on here. But no one here is interested in how UCG was hell on earth.
ReplyDeleteCrazy situations happening within small town congregations.
UCG lost their members because they lost their trust because they are living double lives and think the membership cannot discern.
Much lying goes on within UCG. Leaders lying to the members, acting every Sabbath. Then going home to their Christmas trees, their lean pork meals and their hypocrisy.
Just like Garner Ted. Hypocrisy is rampant in UCG.
That's why COGWA exists.
COGWA split is east to explain. UCG board put an ultimatum to a minister from California. It was something like "do everything we say because we are your boss."
ReplyDeleteThat man wrote a resignation letter saying it was against his conscience to obey men this way and that there would be times requiring disobedience to men. So he had no choice but to resign.
Shortly after this more ultimatums were laid out and more ministers resigned rather that offer feilty to the council.
Eventually the members started asking questions and the lines were black and white with everyone I talked with.
If you believe a minister is an employee of the corporation and must obey every order from the council of elders they went with UCG. (Some of these people were also purely ignorant of the ultimatums.)
Everyone who believed it a sin to attempt to force men to obey other men under threat of loaing their job went with COGWA. (And for various other lesser reasons)
I had these arguments for months because I went to both UCG and COGWA for aong time and still have friends in both.
COGWA has set up their own council now and will likely run into the same issue. But u know for a fact that some congregations are know therebis error in their church that needs to be fixed. But UCG seems bitter and spiteful instead of introspective and humbled.
But, we will see what will happen with COGWA when the next challenge appears. Likely in the next couple years.
Locally there are rumbles but they have actually brought forth more open discussion. So I think COGWA members may come through with something special if they reject the next hammer to come down from the council.
We will see.
If you want evidence of what I wrote just read the resignation letters of the first ministers yourself. Even contact them. I did.
The final schism is easy to understand it's the lead up to the years of mess leading up to the split that takes some digging to understand.
Evindentally when the cameras were off at the council meetings the men behaved very baddly in UCG pre-split. So there was not much to work with to resolve conflict.
Isn't this the moral equivalent of thinking that diarrhea has medicinal value? I've always thought that looking for a good church amongst the splinters is like comparison shopping for diarrhea. That's also why I sometimes call them the "sphincter" groups.
ReplyDeleteBB
Before I stopped attending services in the late 1980s, our minister was plainly a psychopath. The dreg of the church, including elders, rallied around him. They constantly victimized their betters. It was risky to disagree with or rebuke others without being attacked by this minister. I believe that it's this phenomenon that led to the split. The UCG being the dreg of course.
ReplyDeleteAnon, January 13, 2020 at 2:12 AM, wrote:
ReplyDelete******
"...No, the case will never be closed. I have been following this blog for quite some time but have never commented...No, everyone was not duped. Just half of them, the ones who's hero is Jim Franks and the ones who followed family and friends to COGWA. Do you know how totally godless and dishonest the COGWA people are? I was in Houston at "church" services the day the shit hit the fan with the Tkach fiasco. Franks was conveniently out of town, meeting secretly "on a hunting trip". They had planned how to draw people out of WCG to form UCG...I have asked family members why they left UCG and went to COGWA. I have never yet been given a straight answer. They just tell me that the "ministers" in UCG are all liars. I keep telling them that ALL of them are liars in both camps. I would like to see a list of the accusations, concerns and doctrinal rumors against UCG..."
******
Yes, the liars are in both camps. Why? They, knowingly or not, ignorantly or not, continue wrestling flesh and blood (Eph 6:12) while they follow their father (John 8:44; 10:12-13). My wife, who used to have lots of respect for Jim Franks, still currently with United, knows cogwa is an organization created by lies.
I attended the Indianapolis Conference that resulted in the creation of Ucgaia, now called United. Jim Franks learned well, b/c he was just as instrumental and successful drawing members away from the WCG as he was to, as you wrote: "...draw people out of WCG to form UCG." History repeating itself. Same drawing techniques used, but United was formed b/c the WCG was making changes with their teaching of spiritual milk and junk food (doing away with the Sabbath, and many other changes) and the hirelings didn’t like that.
In 1995, prior to the Passover, and that creation of the United Ass., the traditional procedure was being changed and the unleavened bread was to be broken up ahead of time: before the Passover service began. Many in the ministry knew it, and many also knew that a number of ministers had been secretly planning to create that "new organization" that eventually became known as the United.
All 3 organizations (former wcg, ucg, and the cogwa) continue to be filled with their junk food doctrines, their lies and their liars, to this day. There is a way that seems right. One does not need any list of accusations, concerns and doctrinal rumers against UCG; there is plenty of information available.
Will the United, and cogwa, associations split again from within? Who then will be in charge? Who gets the mammon? Who is going to be of whom? Unless something changes (e.g. replace their junk food with strong spiritual meat), history will again repeat itself with further splits (John 10:12-13). When? We don't know exactly, but hirelings will flee and sheep will follow. We're another day closer, but time will tell...
John
The men indeed did behave very poorly during the council meetings, but some of those were also those currently in COGWA. One of the "younger" COGWA council members was one of the major firebrands. If I had to choose which group behaved worse it would be difficult. The UCG group were more heavy handed and the COGWA group was disingenuous.
ReplyDeleteSince the WCG was so organizationally and hierarchically driven and determinative of who consisted of the elect, it would appear organizations and hierarchy are very important to these men. Thus, UCG believed their organization was important and since the UCG-loyal guys were in the leadership they required obedience from the future COHWA ministers almost to the degree these ministers expected obedience from the members. These future COGWA ministers told their tales of woe at the hand of their UCG loyal bosses and received some sympathy from members who nevertheless found it ironic that these guys couldn't handle the pressure that many members consistently handle with their own jobs.
But, all is well (for the ministry of both UCG and COHWA now), the council meetings are so much more peaceful without people they just didn't get along with (both groups believe it is due to a right spirit). Still tougher on the membership, but what is new there?
25 years of unified camps, indeed...
I was just simplofying the split. I think most people don't know about the ultimatums and resignation letters online. If those ultimatums from the council and Kubik had not happened the split would not have happened. Some people may have issues, maybe a lit of strife and a few fired ministers, but not a split.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteOld UCG ministers raised their children to marry outside of the church and end up divorced.
Newly-credentialed, fake, UCG “ministers” raised their children to marry outside of the church.
UCG members raised their children to marry outside of the church.
People who hang out at UCG meetings raised their children to marry outside of the church.
Maybe UCG types do not really believe anything.
Around 2008, the UCG elders elected a new set of leaders to the council of elders, replacing many of the men who are now COGWA. These COGWA men then had a discussion something like this:
ReplyDelete"We all know we are better leaders than those men."
"Should we just try to make a more concerted effort to get re-elected to the board?"
"No, for some reason the idiot elders can't see how great we are."
"So, what will we do?"
"I don't know, but I know I don't want to just be a pastor, I should be leading the church."
"I know, let's start our own church!"
"If we did that, no one would follow us."
"That's true. Can we point out the differences between us and UCG?"
"Like what? There are no differences. Except the fact that we want to establish a headquarters and campus in Texas. And, we're going to reduce our outreach to little more than an internet ministry."
"You're right. If we tell people that, no one will follow us."
"I know. Let's just make some things up! Like, hmmm, let's see. I know. Let's say they're going to complete the Tkachian apostasy. Several of them were in the Tkach administration. They're going to do away with the Sabbath. They're going to adopt the trinity. Yeah, things like that."
"We can't do that. Those things aren't true. And several of us were in Tkach's admin, too."
"Ahh, but we can start an anonymous blog or two, that keeps repeating these lies. You know how propaganda works. Say something often enough and people begin to believe it. Who knows, we might even rope in a few dupes like James Malm to help us."
"Well, we can try it. If it doesn't work, we'll have kept our noses clean. Let's give it a try!"
The actual splitting of UCG was done by Kubik and a few others on the council at the time. COGWA would never had formed if ultimatums had not been made.
ReplyDelete..Who knows, we might even rope in a few dupes like James Malm to help us."
ReplyDeleteIs that not what a very important COG person has done to his fellow UCG council of elders brothers this month Anon 12:06?
You also like to rope in dupes or ones you thought were dupes.
Is anyone else still uncertain of the final straw that caused the split with UCG and COGWA?
ReplyDelete9:04,
ReplyDeleteSelfishness. Putting their desires ahead of the church members. Surely all involved knew they would damage families and friends. Surely all involved knew that they were acting in a way contrary to the interests of their doctrine: hierarchy, unity, the belief in a God ordained/authorized ministry. They were clearly not "select men" during this time. While speaking with many ministers involved before and during the split, I recall very little consideration given to the brethren but rather the stoking of the flames of division.
2:04,
ReplyDeleteComplaining about ultimatums seems very ironic when used to justify the actions of a COG minister.
If there were no ultimatums, then all the fighting would have stayed in house and been dealt with eventually. Maybe a few people would have left but no split.
ReplyDeletePeople really, really want to know WHY the split happened. Everyone knows there was strife, that is not what is in question.
"Complaining about ultimatums seems very ironic when used to justify the actions of a COG minister."
ReplyDeleteComplaining that a minister would show any shred of morals is ironic for many commenters on this blog.
Anon January 15 at 11:30 AM said, "While speaking with many ministers involved before and during the split, I recall very little consideration given to the brethren but rather the stoking of the flames of division."
ReplyDeleteI know no details about the split, but do have one tidbit that corroborates what you said. I have a relative whose husband was a local elder in UCG. They attended the meeting where the division vote was taken and were strongly in favor of the formation of COGWA. I mentioned I had read that the controversy had something to do with Latin American churches. She said indignantly that the UCG Council of Elders refused to support the ministers.
I didn't respond to that, but wondered who, if anybody, supported the members. My bias is that the purpose of a church is to minister to the needs of the people who come there for solace, affirmation, and celebration. But my bias is secular, and I avoided offending my religious relative by trying to persuade her to see it my way.
ReplyDeleteThe UCG is full of a lot of bad people doing evil to others. That is why it splits and splinters.
Hopefully COGWA will do better.
Anonymous, January 15, 2020 at 9:04 AM, asked:
ReplyDelete"...Is anyone else still uncertain of the final straw that caused the split with UCG and COGWA?
As another factor, people may think about the conversion of the leaders of these particular groups, b/c they so often act like unconverted disciples. Sort of like those Jesus Christ spent lots of time with, and what was so often on His disciple's minds? #1! Greatness! Who, really, is the greatest? Who is #1? Here's some evidence:
Matthew 18:1 "At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
Mark 9:34 "But they held their peace: for by the way they had disputed among themselves, who [should be] the greatest."
Well, the disciples still hadn't received God's Spirit at that time, so perhaps this type of thinking in those unconverted is understandable.
When United voted in their leaders at the Indianapolis Conference (After all, God had not provided them a leader, so they voted in their own leader), but who really was the greatest? Who really was in control?
FWIIW, a minister thought about our hopes for Indianapolis and sent a memo to Victor Kubik, which Victor read to all attendees just prior to their departure on 2 May 1995, the last day of the Conference, and a portion of memo follows:
******
CAN IT EVER BE? That cohesive, Christ-led entity that we all want so dearly? Or does Indy seal our fate to factions and factions? The hopes are high, the stakes are critical. Indy will be either a dawning of a New World Tomorrow, or the proof of our folly.
PIE IN THE SKY is what the detractors say...
...Dissolution of their structure for a greater cause becomes too great a defeat. The show must go on...
...WHAT WILL INDY BE? I know what you and I want it to be. But do you know what many see it as? Separate leaders of several pre-formed groups pushing their system at each other, followed by the winner selling it to the ministry. The ministry is invited to view the outcome and cast in their lot, depending on who "wins" and if they like the smell of it.
WHO LOOSES IF INDY FALTERS?...
Just some concerns and fears…I don’t know what it WILL be, I know what it MIGHT be and what it CAN be. I’ll be there in support. Be careful who gets control. Make sure it’s God.
******
Be careful who gets control? Did those attendees really think they had any real say in who gets control? We see who is in control today, and it sure isn't God.
Even Christ's unconverted disciples couldn't figure out that God, The God, the Father was the greatest, #1, and the factions of what came out of that Indianapolis Conference have proved over time that God was never in control. Christ might have said: "What are you guys talking about today? Is it the same thing: who is the greatest?"
How do we know God is not controlling the United Ass., or the Cogw Ass.? The strife, the wrestling of flesh and blood, continues on to this very day. Who would want to author strife, wrestling, confusion, grief, pain, sorrow, etc.?
Whatever the final straw was that caused the United/Cogwa split (Might we also insert the former WCG, too?), will they both, as factions, continue to become disunited?
Time will tell...
John
I appreciate the comments, but it seems because so many people really don't understand WHY UCG and COGWA split that it's good to know what the final act was that truly pushed so many ministers to actually give up guaranteed income.
ReplyDeleteHere's an example of one of the ultimatums:
https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2011/01/ucg-minister-chris-moen-resignation.html
These letters are not hard to find, it's just hard to understand that the ultimatums were the final straw.
The ultimatums were a line in the sand. When UCG laid out an ultimatum they were saying "No more talking, pick a side".
What would anyone else do in those circumstances? I think everyone posting here would have resigned.
Ultimatums are not about unity, they are about fealty and absolute blind obedience or splitting.
UCG council and Kubik caused the split between UCG and COGWA.
Looks like Chris Moen was duped by the rumors also. Remember, the conflict was really brought to a head when the COGWA men tried to create a super-board that would oversee the council of elders. They couldn't get the support of the elders, so they tried a coup. In fact, the new council members were willing to keep Clyde Kilough as president until he backed this unlawful power-play. And all Moen wants is a face-to-face conversation with the past leadership? Hogwash, these men still wanted a role in the church government that the elders denied them. Then they went crying to Moen (and others) that the elected leaders wouldn't heed their suggestions. Wa-wa... they're so mean. It was all propaganda to demonize the new UCG leaders. And... it worked. Moen and many others fell for the scheme.
ReplyDeleteNo one thinks COGWA leaders did well. But Kubik and the council drew a line in the sand. If they had not done that then they would still be arguing all together in UCG about who is in charge.
ReplyDeleteThe question people are asking is "why did they split?" The answer is Kubik and the council gave ultimatums.
The current COGWA ministers aren't perfect by any stretch. But they at least stood up for something at the cost of their income, jobs and an uncertain future. Something everyone here has been claiming the ministry has never done.
11:25,
ReplyDeleteWe are all given ultimatums at times. You don’t have to buck an ultimatum. Some the Lord has given: I set before you life and death, choose life that you and your family May live.
Ministry: if you work on Saturday, you will not be welcome at church. If you play a sport on Friday night, you can’t come to camp.
All ultimatums.
Choosing to not support the Ucg leadership and resigning (after garnering enough member support and after a financial vehicle/organization had been set up for the resigning ministers) was the final reason for the split. If the cogwa ministers had thought more about the turmoil a split would cause in the life of the members (yeah right) over their personal pride and dislike and disagreements With the church leadership of Ucg then the split would not have happened.
The ministers that left for COGWA did not lay down the ultimatiums, Kubik and the council did. Trying to deflect from that fact seems suspicious.
ReplyDeleteThe ultimatums were immoral and unethical and against God himself. (obey men over God)
You can't compare those to obeying God's commandment to keep the sabbath holy. You sound just like the people arguing that all ministers are employees and have to obey their employer no matter what.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the Holy Spirit moved on from the UCG to COGWA around 2010.
Maybe what is left of the UCG has now become a haunt of demons, and newly-credentialed fake “ministers,” and unrepentant unbelievers behaving very badly while playing church.
Why is this scenario so hard for some wicked people to accept?
9:24,
ReplyDeleteNow that you mention it, there were some ultimatums by COGWA, but sure UCG's was strongly stated and the only one I was focusing on. How would COGHWA be obeying God rather than men by splitting and harming congregations and family and friends?
Most grew out of WCG where the government was said to be God ordained and if you were rebellious against that you were outside of the elect; employer and employee rights are secondary to that. It could sound like you are fully against strong church government in that you even denounce the employee and employer relationship within these church organizations. I would say that is a step in the right direction, but presume you believe in the inspiration of the COGWA government.
9:59, I'm sorry you believe that not accepting that scenario indicates that some people are wicked.
Obviously some people want to spread the blame around and make this complicated.
ReplyDeleteBut people want a simple answer. If the simple answer was "ministers couldn't get along and here's a 100 page essay on all the problems" then you have to go back years to explain everything.
But the final straw. The actual reason there was a split was because Kubick and the council demanded ministers to make a choice. Obey the council or leave.
People are still wanting to know why the split happened. (it's been 10 years!!!) Everything leading up to the split is so complicated and messy that it's nearly pointless to argue about.
The reason for the split is simpler than any given in the comments above. And, that is, that this is still Armstrongism, a man-made religion which God allowed to exist, but was never part of. Gamaliel's precept acknowledges the fact that people who are participating in religions of man actually believe that they are participating in true religion ordained by God. The splintering and coming to nothing comprise the proof of the real origins.
ReplyDeleteBB
Bob,
ReplyDeleteMaybe because you don't attend anymore you don't understand the problem. People really are confused about "what happened". Not some generic universal accusation of "men are evil".
And this really does come done to one point in time. If Kubik and the council did not put out ultimatums to obey the council or leave, the COGWA ministers would still be in UCG right now bickering about by laws and how to deal with headquarters.
Maybe you don't care about what or why people are asking this, but people who are still attending do care to know.
10:34,
ReplyDeleteWhy couldn't they follow the ultimatums? people are given ultimatums all the time at work. Smoke inside the building and your fired. Refuse to attend required meetings and you are fired. Etc.
What sin was there in simply doing as their agreed upon leaders wanted? Did they wonder about the wrong done to the members?
8:15
ReplyDeleteI am going to assume you don't attend with UCG or COGWA either. No one cares about obscure "what it's" people just want to know what happened.
And what happened was years of infighting until Kubik and the council put down an ultimatum. That is why the split happened.
If you don't attend with UCG or COGWA none of this may matter to you. But to those that are still wondering what happened because their minister can't or won't explain it 10 years later want an answer.
I keep hearing about this "ultimatum" that Kubik and the council put down. What, specifically, was this ultimatum?
ReplyDelete11:41,
ReplyDeleteI occasionally attend with Cogwa and Ucg. You keep saying the ultimatum was the cause of the split, but there was something that came after that...deciding to split. That was on Cogwa. Why didn't they humble themselves for the congregants and choose not to split? Splits don't necessarily occur because an ultimatum is given. Splits necessarily occur when people make the decision to split.
No offense, but you seem to act like an ultimatum itself is wrong. That is not true. The choice to split was the final reason. The arrogance on both sides were contributing reasons.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 11:41 PM said...“And what happened was years of infighting until Kubik and the council put down an ultimatum. That is why the split happened.”
How could there have been “years of infighting” in the United Church? It was, after all, “United,” was it not?
Are you suggesting that the whole bit about being “United” was just an act to try to fool the little sheeple?
Anyway, what is left of the so-called “Ùnited” Church can now be “united” in their godless behavior.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 10:47 AM said... “I occasionally attend with Cogwa and Ucg. ... That was on Cogwa. Why didn't they humble themselves for the congregants and choose not to split? ... The arrogance on both sides were contributing reasons.”
That sounds like all the usual worth-less-than-nothing baffle-gab from all the usual unbelievers and sinners.
Whenever the RIGHTEOUS and the WICKED disagree, as they inevitably MUST, someone from the dark side will always fake impartiality and proclaim from the darkness something like, “The arrogance on both sides were contributing reasons.” Instead of blaming only those in the wrong, the fake impartial one will try to blame the righteous too. The wicked, fake impartial one will always say that the righteous should have “humbled themselves” and gone along with whatever the wicked wanted, even though the wicked never humbled themselves and never did what was right. Furthermore, the dirty, rotten, fake impartial scoundrel will imply that the righteous should have gone along with the wicked “for the sake of the congregants,” rather than standing up for what is right for the sake of the congregants.
Oh, what sneaky, deceitful, word games the unrepentant, unconverted, unbelievers and evildoers try to play on everyone!
It seems likely that Kubik or a council member from UCG is commenting here. Trying to make "blind obedience" to the council of UCG seem like a good thing.
ReplyDeleteI would argue that when someone asks "Why did UCG and COGWA split?" they aren't asking about the moral difficulties anyone faced, or nitty gritty of "block voting" and such nonsense. They are asking a simple question. What are the "events" that lead up to the split.
The final event was the ultimatums and the resignations.
I really think the COGWA ministers should have disobeyed and been fired. That would have made who the bad guys were cut and dry. But they were cowards and unwise in this regard. So now people still aren't certain who to support.
The events that caused the split are one sided, and the other side chose their conscience, morality and religion against following men.
Choosing to not split is not the same thing as "blind obedience" and no one should confuse the two or support such obedience. Still, the ministry all came out of the WCG who taught that church government was a revealed truth and that submitting to that government was probably the most important doctrines. These ministers required many to follow that submission doctrine, but when the shoe was on the other foot they start talking about "ultimatums". Certainly the UCG leaders also leaned on heavy handedness. But the point is that the split was based on selfishness and arrogance on both sides: "if I can't have it my way, I cannot work with these people." of course, the talk is that we fasted and decided to build a headquarters in Denton, TX. Well, the other group (UCG guys) said let's vote about this again and sure enough the vote went their way to not build in Denton. Neither group could accept the other's alternative. The members noticed this.
ReplyDelete"The members noticed this. "
ReplyDeleteAnd this is why people are still confused and ask the question "Why did UCG/COGWA split?" Because your answer is a non-answer.
If Kubik and the council said "let's keep talking about this and some to a resolution" there would NOT have been a split.
If they had sought peace or even just kept fighting and arguing, there would not have been a split.
Where is my proof of this? Because they had been fighting for YEARS! That is how I know. The only splits that happened is when ultimatums were put to people (good or bad) and they either toed the line or left.
So, why did UCG and COGWA split? It wasn't because of disagreements or fighting or morality or the history of "government worship" or any of that stuff at all. It was because Kubik and the council drew a line in the sand and said "no more fights, this ends now, toe the line or leave".
People in UCG/COGWA need to know this. Everyone else just wants to bash every single minister and COG, which is fine and they deserve it. But the split's cause is simple and black and white.
10:30 am (likely a repeat poster from the COGWA side) keeps making the reason for the split sound simple enough in order to blame UCG, reducing the split to just an ultimatum, which is the excuse that COGWA was waiting for to get out. The truth is that BOTH sides are guilty with blood on their hands, UCG for their deceit, treachery, hypocrisy and injustices vis-a-vis the lay members, and COGWA for arguing over admin matters and charging UCG with unfaithfulness and immoral behaviour (thus setting aside Christ's command to forgive and be reconciled). Seven years prior to all the biting and devouring that ensued, UCG was guilty of justifying a blasphemy from an elder (that was reported by a lay member), in order to support one of their "top men". Then 7 years later, Satan comes along and provokes UCG into a split by using some of their "top men" AGAINST THEM. You small men know nothing beyond the carnal level. When Israel was split up in Solomon's time, who was responsible? The little men arguing in an office? No! It was due to Solomon's sin. (1 Kings 11:11) As noted above, in an ultimatum one has the option to accept or reject. An ultimatum is an invitation to agree or disagree, not an order to split. I say this so that COGWA will stop justifying its existence and that UCG will clean up its house before it's too late. (P.S. So if COGWA council issues an ultimatum to its members who reject it, whose sin will it be? By rejecting an ultimatum to conform, you assert your own righteousness and imply that the other side is immoral, anathema, and unworthy of forgiveness)
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