Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
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Friday, January 17, 2020
LCG: Are you letting Satan use your perceived "hurts" to criticize the ministry?
Living Church of God would be unable to exist if it was not instilling fear into its members. Doug Winnail writes below about how persons with doubt, hurts and resentments feel they have the right to criticize the ministry. How dare you hold them accountable for their abuse! How dare you!
Words of an abusive institution? Maybe Doug believes Satan used Jesus since he criticized those in leadership positions.
Are You in Satan’s Crosshairs? Satan never rests, and he is certainly active in our modern world. This is why the Bible contains numerous warnings about how Satan operates to deceive, divide, and destroy God’s people. Satan is described as a hunting lion who stalks his unsuspecting prey (1 Peter 5:8). He is a dangerous adversary searching for vulnerable individuals (1 Timothy 5:14–15). Satan does not hunt with claws or bullets, but instead spreads gossip, rumors, lies, and negative comments about others (1 Timothy 5:13; Leviticus 19:16; John 8:44). He fosters dissention and divisions by stirring up fears, jealousy, and wrong ambitions (1 Corinthians 1:10–13). He will use anyone—members and ministers—to sow discord and do his work (2 Corinthians 11:1–15). Satan zeros in on people who have doubts, hurts, and resentments; who feel wronged; or who feel their ideas, opinions, or ambitions have been overlooked or denied. He uses such individuals to criticize, lash out at, or undermine others—especially those in leadership positions. We are advised not be ignorant of Satan’s devices (2 Corinthians 2:11). As we get closer to the end of the age, we need to be able to recognize and resist Satan’s attempts to deceive and divide. Let’s not become unsuspecting victims of negative attitudes that Satan beams at those in his crosshairs (Ephesians 2:2). Have a profitable Sabbath, Douglas S. Winnail
In his message, Doug is criticizing, lashing out at, and undermining others. But I guess it's OK, because he is only doing it to brethren, not to those in leadership positions.
Or is he? We know how Doug felt wronged when his pet project, Living University, was cancelled. We know how he felt resentment that he couldn't manipulate Gerald Weston to change his mind the way he had manipulated Rod Meredith for so many years.
Jesus Christ taught that we would be judged by the standard we apply to others. Maybe Doug is telling on himself here, more than he realizes?
Doug needs to realize that Satan has been using the so called leaders to divide! If it were up to most "members" each town would have one cog fellowship with no corporate banner flying. It's clearly HWA's clergy class, which he instituted when he saw that was the only way to control people, that is causing division. We're told to mark such individuals.
Doug really needs to learn the lesson of WCG. God broke it apart because of idolatry, looking to a man, a clergy class, and a corporation rather than God is idolatry!
It's a bully trait to try and suppress the natural consequences of ones abusive and criminal behavior. This is often portrayed in movies where witnesses are killed or intimidated into silence. This happened in Godfather Part 2, where the witness (Francesco Pentangeli) against the Corleone family is threatened with the murder of his brother.
One of my ministers from the pulpit claimed that Satan was putting negative feelings against him into members minds. He is a vicious, verbally murderous minister. The bible states 'be angry (a command) and sin not.' Members are to experience the negative emotions that stem from abuse. All emotions are a call to action, so it's hardly surprising that ministers fear this. The Corleone crime family and HWA ministers share much in common.
What is wrong with all of you Satanically led people?? Dont you realize that the ministry is INFALLIBLE , like the Pope?? Oh , I forgot, it is indeed the Catholic Church of God!
"He fosters dissention and divisions by stirring up fears, jealousy, and wrong ambitions"---isn't it the ministry that is concerned most with jealousy and wrong ambitions? Members rarely gain any traction in advancing such pursuits, but the ministers can create offshoots and splits. It's all so foolish.
6.19 AM Spot on. It was God rather than Joe Tkach who broke up the church. Members were being terrorized and reduced to slavery in the Herb plantation. With the splintering, ministers have to pull their punches and (gulp) try at times to please their members least they bunny hop to another splinter. No wonder Herb railed against the evils of competition. Who would have tolerated his two trees sermon if his church wasn't a monopoly?
“LCG: Are you letting Satan use your perceived 'hurts' to criticize the ministry?”
Satan does not have to use “perceived hurts.” He can use all the very real wrongs and hurts in the splinter groups to get people to criticize the guilty false leaders.
I really do not like to make comments in this blog due to the way things that are posted. All most everything is geared to destroy people or groups of people. The things presented assume that Armstrongites are substandard people who are bible readers who see God as they want to see Him and do not have a true understanding of how God wants them to live. It also assumes that all in leadership roles are in the same categories. Of course the accusers have a true understanding and God has given them the responsibility warn the abused, but they have no power to provide a solution that God will except and enforce. The only solution is to forget religion and seek their desires in the way of the world today.
I think 7:06 makes some valid points. Armstrongites aren't substandard people, and not all those in leadership positions always have to be in the same category. But it's interesting how 7:06 concludes by weaponizing that, as though, almost in the same breath, he or she is saying that people who aren't in the church are substandard people.
How can you look at the COGs and not recognize that from the inception of WCG, there was always so much corruption, so many bad actors, so much chaos, injustice, and abuse, and no one has ever had a solution for any of it. This is the example we spent our lives setting?
If any of the predictions the church made had come true, and there was a tribulation and then people from the church were put in charge of building a new "utopia," considering the example the church has historically set, in what substantive way would that "world tomorrow" be any different than "the world" we already have today?
But of course, to add insult to injury, the church's predictions always failed. Considering the church's bad example and taking Deut 18:21-23 into account as well, it's almost like there never was any god in any of it. It's just people doing what people are gonna do, and always trying to get away with whatever they can. You have to admit, if the church was never more than just a church of men, it certainly would explain everything.
I would love it if someone could distinguish for me the difference between "the way of the world" and the "way of the church." In practice, I don't see any significant differences in the end results of "living god's way," and it's hard for me to imagine what kind of hairs one would have to split, or how arbitrary the line would wind up being, if one tried to draw a distinction. And if we weren't living god's way, then what the hell were we doing? How was it not all just a huge waste of time and money? If you have to draw a distinction between "the church's way" and "god's way," isn't that the same as admitting god had no significant effect on the church? And if that's true, did he ever have anything to do with it at all?
It's funny to me how people like 7:06 think that by not forgetting religion, that they're somehow not living "the way of the world." It just winds up being a distinction without a difference.
None of that makes the people in the church substandard, but by the same token, the people who aren't in the church, you know, the ones out "seeking their desires in the way of the world today," they aren't substandard either, even though the church has always made them out to be.
"The only solution is to forget religion and seek their desires in the way of the world today."
The only solution? How about this one? Forget religion and seek God!
Forget the supposed "leaders" (they are all HWA ordained anyway), forget the supposed organizations!
Seek God like Abraham did! He didn't need "leaders" nor an organization.
Show me evidence that your "position" as a "leader" was ordained by God and maybe I'll choose to support you. Until there's evidence of your calling you're just another self imposed "leader". I'm referring to all the self important ones out there. All the "clergy class" in the orgs whether COGWA, UCG, LCG and even those independents who yhink they have a calling from God just because they once attended A.C. or were ordained by HWA, or ordained by someone, who was ordained by someone, who was ordained by someone who was ordained by HWA. That is a rebellious chain, an ego driven chain camouflaged with a so called desire to serve. But in truth just an ego trip!
If you are a "leader" in any of the cog groups what would you do if a "member" called you by your first name? Or did your mom and dad really name you Mister? Is your first name Mister? Such an ego driven, self ordained (started by HWA) system that has been worshipped for way too long. God destroyed that system but you all want to force its continuance. Sad, very sad!
Enough of my rant, its just when someone mentions "leader" it really pisses me off. I have God's Holy Spirit, I am of the Royal Priesthood. I don't need a modern day Korah trying to take my "position" in the Family of God! If you don't get what I'm saying about Korah you're blind. Korah was a Levite wanting to be an Aaronic Priest, you modern day, HWA ordained "ministers", are trying to quench the Spirit within God's Royal Priesthood and remove us from our rightful place. You're trying to push yourselves into a position over us. And way too many have given in to your subterfuge!
It's time for the "clergy class" system, the Mr. Minister system, the you have to have a "leader" system to end. It's corrupt, and I believe a stench to God. It's all just a bunch of bullshit!
7.06 PM HWA splinter members have had their minds imprisoned by the many lies of their churches. This blog tries to set members free by exposing these lies. For instance, these churches try to turn members into automatons, controlled by the supposed master race ministers. This robs members of their ability to grow and flourish like the tree in Psalm 1:3. It's the ministers that are the destroyers. Please engage your brain before you post.
Why do you think God isn't blessing these churches?
you've pretty much summed up this blog and others like it....they point out a few kooks (who are likely not truly in The Church) and try to paint everyone with the same brush, trying to discredit God and His instructions to His people so they won't feel guilty for ignoring Him, and they can continue on living life as they please with a clear conscience.
Someone must be challenging Winnail's position on something to prompt this type of open targeting openly in their weekly update. It's poor leadership and lack of control of the ministry that puts people in positions where they speak out, which he interprets as being critical. This is the same stuff said in the early 90s as thing were falling apart in WCG. Maybe it would be helpful if HE would stop targeting people then hopefully God wouldn't judge and condemn him the way he's done others.
will use anyone—members and ministers—to sow discord and do his work
How often does a COG leader accuse ministers in his own group of being under Satan's influence? That's what Winnail has done here! Winnail has already lost his precious Living University, and Weston is probably getting ready to forcibly retire the 77-year-old Winnail and replace him with someone younger and more compliant to Weston's wishes. Soon, Winnail will have no power in the group, and the loss understandably frightens him. But for Winnail to accuse his fellow ministers of sowing discord under Satan's influence? That's extreme and suggests something more may be going on.
nck,I have noted on many occasions that people attracted to Armstrongism generally do seem to share certain personality traits, but I've stopped short of referring to them as "swine". Not only is that name overly cruel, it's also one of those Armstrong "shibboleths". We must remember that they are victims, after all, until they make a conscious decision not to be. That they could so decide is a good basis for hope.
Armstrongism in several ways is like communism. It is an applied religious philosophy which can be individually practiced in the privacy of one's home with minimal damage, but the minute it begins to become organized into a small group or church, the very tenets it embraces create a government setting which produces leaders who automatically become corrupted and abusive. As in the case of communism, this "government" has now been tried and has been an abysmal failure every single time, no matter what leaders attempted it, and regardless of their personalities and character prior to their attempts to institute it. Over decades, its leaders start out with good intentions, only to have the very tenets they preach completely contaminate and subvert their efforts, and themselves as human beings. The idea that this could be an archetype for a future world-dominating utopia is absolutely laughable! It bears no resemblance whatever to the precepts and teachings of Jesus Christ, and even perverts the principles embraced by Moses.
Conservatives have a descriptive acronym, "RINO", meaning "Republican in name only". Armstrongism is "CINO". HWA took the schoolteacher, which Jesus had fulfilled, and refiltered all of Jesus' work through it, nullifying and reinterpreting everything that Jesus accomplished for mankind through His life, death, and resurrection. HWA, COG-7, The Adventists, and others have reduced the epochal events of the first century into just one more Pete Townshend "Here's the new boss, same as the old boss" dystopian situation.
If Armstrongism were God's forced update soon to be downloaded upon and overwriting humanity, then all of the evidence from the beta-tests in which we all participated indicates that heaven would then be hell. Fortunately, I believe some better programming exists and awaits us all. We've got to continue to hope for that, or we may as well all throw up our hands, give up hope, and and become atheist.
Kevin Mc said: Forget religion and seek God! Show me evidence that your "position" as a "leader" was ordained by God and maybe I'll choose to support you.
What you don't know is that my relationship with God has been strong for well over 80 years. I do not need any support from human beings here or elsewhere. My purpose in making the 7:06 post here was to support the Christian Faith. If you have a god that is not the source of true Christian faith and it would be classed as the world's god without Jesus the Christ. Of course this is just my opinion and you can have yours.
BB, In defense of myself, I was just using a one liner expression.
The rest of your posting is one of those to ponder, as olden times.
Since the 1st of January I notice a milder aproach. You either still got it, your new years resolutions are still working, or you are taking your medicine. :-)
Thanks for another intelligent posting, to be agreed or disagreed with, even if provoked.
BTW I believe God is Japanese. That's why the Japanese worked with HWA to learn about Judaism.
Dennis does ponder why God worked in KAIZEN manner according to the lean and agile method in creation and I am sure management too, hence the many races and creatures.
The Fordian top down Fordism approach worked for a while in a production environment.
Winnail has no clue as to why HWA got to meet the Japanese emperor as a citizen. And why the Japanese worked with WCG. His article probably gives clues as to why WCG worked with Japan but not the other way around. It's no coincidence a former Japanese minister of education and technology studied at AC for a while at about the same time BB got turned off. They both practiced KAIZEN. But Winnail got stuck in Fordism producing all types of Fords as long as they choose a black one.
Why is Kevin Mc demanding to proof on anything? Maybe if you did not come across as such a cranky angry man people would carry on conversations with you. Instead, you insult us.
Thank, nck. I hadn't noticed any particular mildness, and didn't make any New Years resolutions, but if there has been a change, it could be all the relaxing work I recently did to the bike (new tires, new shocks, new rear brake caliper, new S & S Super E Carburetor, and new mufflers), and then the frequent rides. Also, my only meds are the occasional can of Budweiser. I have pretty much stuck to the original doctrines concerning Doctors and the medical profession all my life. I did find a practically new casette player for $15 at Zia Records, so have been enjoying all my old cassettes from the '80s and '90s, which had been salted away in a closet. Hadn't heard some of the stuff in years, and that's taken the edge off. Kid Ramos, Henry Lee Summer, the Nixons, Havana Black, the Screaming Trees, Ian Moore, the Four Horsemen, Blackie Lawless and WASP, just to name a few.
I've also gotten to the point where very little seems important enough to argue about. Much better to spend the effort fighting personal or job-related challenges. Surely at this point in time, everyone here is a confirmed Atheist, a Christian, or a member of an ACOG or independent Armstrongite. So the arguments are never resolved, and in the aftermath, people go their way more firmly convinced that their original position was correct in the first place. It would be rare indeed if any of us got to assist another blogger into a better philosophy or better way of life. Mostly, supportive comments just make people feel better and more secure about the way in which they believe or don't believe. Each of the three main groups has its own Hallelujah chorus.
There are actually a few people whose flow of ideas is stimulating to the intellect. That's what drew me to these so-called dissident sites in the first place. Further education. The interesting posters, at least in my opinion, tend to be those who have a constant stream of new topics and ideas to discuss, and not the repeaters or people who just want to argue.
Guess that captures it all in a nutshell. Happy New Year!
Annon Said; Why is Kevin Mc demanding to proof on anything? Maybe if you did not come across as such a cranky angry man people would carry on conversations with you. Instead, you insult us. Reply to 12.05: It seems my point was misinterpreted. The point was that anything that questions the Christian Faith is not a subject I am interested in. I could point to many scriptures that support Faith as the important factor. If a person wants proof of God and Jesus Christ they do not have Faith. This is not an insult its a truth the Christian religion requires. I do not mean to be a cranky old man, I suspect that come along with growing old. Some day you may be old also.
BB True. No person ever convinced me of anything. Many however have served as catalysts. Your bike may also have or be a catalyst for good. And..... no, trading guy, I said catalyst not capitalist. Happy New Year to Hank (Orthodox) Hanegraaf perhaps.
I love it '80s and 90's I just watched a movie (Ron Howard?) about the Beatles 1963. Screaming American boomer girls at a time another segment peopled a college in bricketwood. Same hairdo, different convictions.
Jim, I never left. There will be no tweaks or anything else, I call 'em as I see 'em and if people like 12:05pm don't like it tough. I'm not here to win a popularity contest.
In Armstrongism, they have always treated Satan and his ability to influence as if he were omnipresent, like God. Mainstream Christianity makes a clear distinction regarding this. Also, to my recollection, although they claimed to have all the answers (the truth) about unfathomable beings, Armstrongism never provided a clear explanation as to how God would be omnipresent. In retrospect, one would have thought they might have turned to panentheism, as it makes perfect sense. My personal opinion is that God created the physical things which we perceive not from nothing, but from elements of Himself.
Funny. They went out of their way to parse the Holy Spirit, but ignored very important details regarding God and Satan. Orthodox Jews acknowledge that God is unfathomable. The minute we attempt to define Him, we impose human limitations upon Him. Satan does have severe limitations placed upon him, and cannot do most of the things that teachers of Armstrongism imply. It would be both humorous and terrifying if Satan actually came into any of their presence, even just to mess with them.
Satan could have been part of God's first or original feedback loop into successful management and improvement (KAIZEN).
Then God decided to implement agile self steering teams (mankind) through another feedback loop.
Scrum master Moses couldn't get through to Product Owner "the Word". One of the results of the 1st sprint was to send Jesus.
I have a feeling we are just in a 3rd "agile sprint" of something big.
We have come to see ourselves as "the product" through our isolated location. While in reality we are the workers in the room to whom Steve Jobs likes to introduce the latest product which we have come up with.
The clients are the Grey billions of people who have gone before us and are dead now. Some of them knew what we need others dont have a clue.
The many cultures, ideas, races, philosophies, edifices, agile teams of the God corporation have produced so far are fascinating. For a tourist they are. When you are part of one of the teams cooperation, working hours and pay and overbearing management can be less satisfying than the ideal.
Yet every sprint is delivering an enhanced product. Another problem is posed by the coming 9.5 billion people in the teams. Yet this number could not be fathomed by the club of rome even until 1970 when 3.5 billion would have been deemed the limit.
But hey. The teams do not even begin to know what products are coming. Working on one we find a solution for another.
Kevin Mc Loved your post. thanks for bringing my attention to what the rebellion of Korah actually was. the explanations we've had for this in the past have been telling people to be under the thumb of the ministers and HWA. Your insightful comment made me think about this more and realise it was Korah, wanting to usurp the place of the High Priest, who was the person appointed to make presentation for the people to God. Now that we have Jesus Christ as our High Priest, if any man tries to usurp His position and come between people and God then he is doing a Korah. No one is to lord it over their brethren We are all equal before God and Christ is our Head. I'll be glad when more people come out from this bondage as it is hard to be with people who still are under the influence of the ministerial brainwashing. I realise that there are different kinds of roles that people have, but to lord it over others, is just not on. It will be good when we can stop being knowledge focused and actually have real affection and regard for others, instead of carrying on as if we are part of some business corporation. So thanks again, Kevin for your post .
9:51am For the record, my comment that you quoted wasn't directed at you, unless of course you're a "leader" ordained in the corrupt HWA line of ordinations.
I said this, specifying who the comment was for~
"I'm referring to all the self important ones out there. All the "clergy class" in the orgs whether COGWA, UCG, LCG and even those independents who think they have a calling from God"
So if you think I was aiming solely at you, you're mistaken.
If we are exploring "creation" creative processes and purpose, why not! Perhaps a nice diversion from my usual *Cia opening doors" harping on the American empire as God's tool on earth.
nck - another diversion for you (and Dennis if he is reading) - the Bible states God made man in His image, but isn't it more the truth that man has made God in man's image? What is the advantage of the human male body to an all powerful spirit being? It seems that the descriptions we have of God in the Bible make Him the same as any one of our fictional super heroes - Superman, the Avengers, Thor, etc. Humans seem to have this desire for superhuman male figures - in recent times females have been added to the superhuman list.
And, if you believe in the gap theory, these superhumans have been playing solitaire or dinosaur games for the past 14 billion years until it was time for humans to arrive.
KM said: So if you think I was aiming solely at you, you're mistaken.
I pointed out that my focus was on the true believers in the Christian Faith where ever they were. You apparently believe you one step under Jesus Christ so there are no human beings who can be more righteous than you are. I have a little problem with that because spiritual growth is a process that takes a life time. I agree that Armstrongism as a religious organization collapse and I left completely 20 years ago. This does not mean that God is no longer working in Christian churches. Do to my age and other factors I am no longer associated with a church of any denomination, but does not mean I respect those who are teaching the Christian Faith from the Christian Bible. I fellowship with many in different local church congregations. I hope this clears up what I tried to point out in Gary's Blog.
If this blog serves any purpose then one needs to find common ground with an audience. My belief system is inconsequential.
The Bible does not state HOW God creates. And I proposed an agile system seeing the many types of hominids that are found.
I also know that the original God is a woman. (a meaty one that is) If you look at the whims, insecurities, cruelty and kindness of the Hebrew God one could make a case of femininity. Besides this stuff of wanting to marry and making covenants all the time. Even the name "the Word", I mean common since when did women stop talking and they are more creative too. Typical female stuff. A man's a word is a man's word.
"You apparently believe you one step under Jesus Christ so there are no human beings who can be more righteous than you are."
How the hell did you come to that conclusion? I never said anything like that, nor did I disparage going to any church. I merely pointed out that our personal relationship with God is what should take precedence, not what church we go to or what position we think we have in the church.
Since the topic has been brought up, I stopped attending WWCG services 35 years ago. I once toyed with joining a splinter, only to be warned away by the holy spirit with the words 'you're joining gang.' So scratch the surface, and it's gang rather than biblical morality that prevails in these churches. Which means they don't have Gods approval.
As a group/organization I agree 100% with your statement. Individually it's not our place to determine who has God's approval. It's a good thing that it's not our call who is a true Christian. Whether one is a cog christian, an evangelical christian, a Roman Catholic christian, or any others. Only God knows the heart and only God can make that call.
That's nonsense. 'You shall know them by their fruits' tells us that in many,if not most cases, we can indeed. Everyone has the personal responsibility of evaluating those around them. It's part of the 'watch' command. For the sake of self protection, everyone needs to know if others are friend or foe. Christ said beware of the Pharisees for good reason. Since people want to get away with their crimes, this responsibility is attacked by the criminally minded and abusive Herb ministers.
It's easy for DW to sit in his ivory tower and pronounce judgments on the membership each week in his "profitable" commentary. The only ones who profit from his judgements are his ministry...gotta protect the good'ole boys club! Me thinks thou doth protest too much, something prick your pride?
3:01, This verse is given as a way of identifying false prophets not for sitting around and saying this or that person is not a Christian. The fruits we will be judging are largely centered around whether their prophecies come true. If someone states they are a Christian it really isn't our place to judge their Christianity. Nothing wrong with not trusting someone due to what we have seen in their lives, but they also might be starting from a tough position in their Christian walk and are making mistakes right and left. I might not hire them as an air traffic controller, but I also cannot judge whether they are in fact Christians.
In his message, Doug is criticizing, lashing out at, and undermining others. But I guess it's OK, because he is only doing it to brethren, not to those in leadership positions.
ReplyDeleteOr is he? We know how Doug felt wronged when his pet project, Living University, was cancelled. We know how he felt resentment that he couldn't manipulate Gerald Weston to change his mind the way he had manipulated Rod Meredith for so many years.
Jesus Christ taught that we would be judged by the standard we apply to others. Maybe Doug is telling on himself here, more than he realizes?
Doug needs to realize that Satan has been using the so called leaders to divide! If it were up to most "members" each town would have one cog fellowship with no corporate banner flying. It's clearly HWA's clergy class, which he instituted when he saw that was the only way to control people, that is causing division. We're told to mark such individuals.
ReplyDeleteDoug really needs to learn the lesson of WCG. God broke it apart because of idolatry, looking to a man, a clergy class, and a corporation rather than God is idolatry!
It's a bully trait to try and suppress the natural consequences of ones abusive and criminal behavior. This is often portrayed in movies where witnesses are killed or intimidated into silence. This happened in Godfather Part 2, where the witness (Francesco Pentangeli) against the Corleone family is threatened with the murder of his brother.
ReplyDeleteOne of my ministers from the pulpit claimed that Satan was putting negative feelings against him into members minds. He is a vicious, verbally murderous minister. The bible states 'be angry (a command) and sin not.' Members are to experience the negative emotions that stem from abuse. All emotions are a call to action, so it's hardly surprising that ministers fear this.
The Corleone crime family and HWA ministers share much in common.
What is wrong with all of you Satanically led people?? Dont you realize that the ministry is INFALLIBLE , like the Pope?? Oh , I forgot, it is indeed the Catholic Church of God!
ReplyDelete"He fosters dissention and divisions by stirring up fears, jealousy, and wrong ambitions"---isn't it the ministry that is concerned most with jealousy and wrong ambitions? Members rarely gain any traction in advancing such pursuits, but the ministers can create offshoots and splits. It's all so foolish.
ReplyDeleteThe LCG uses/employs the Munchausen's Syndrome very effectively against its members.
ReplyDelete6.19 AM
ReplyDeleteSpot on. It was God rather than Joe Tkach who broke up the church. Members were being terrorized and reduced to slavery in the Herb plantation. With the splintering, ministers have to pull their punches and (gulp) try at times to please their members least they bunny hop to another splinter. No wonder Herb railed against the evils of competition. Who would have tolerated his two trees sermon if his church wasn't a monopoly?
SPOT ON
DeleteDoug's comments are shocking. Doug apparently would condemn Jesus for criticizing the Pharisees!
ReplyDeleteYeah I know right Herb would definitely marked Jesus
DeleteI know right Herb would have definitely marked Jesus
Delete
ReplyDelete“LCG: Are you letting Satan use your perceived 'hurts' to criticize the ministry?”
Satan does not have to use “perceived hurts.” He can use all the very real wrongs and hurts in the splinter groups to get people to criticize the guilty false leaders.
A few years ago, I marked an elder(minister) and walked away. Problem solved and joined another group. Two can play that game.
ReplyDeleteI really do not like to make comments in this blog due to the way things that are posted. All most everything is geared to destroy people or groups of people. The things presented assume that Armstrongites are substandard people who are bible readers who see God as they want to see Him and do not have a true understanding of how God wants them to live. It also assumes that all in leadership roles are in the same categories. Of course the accusers have a true understanding and God has given them the responsibility warn the abused, but they have no power to provide a solution that God will except and enforce. The only solution is to forget religion and seek their desires in the way of the world today.
ReplyDeleteWow 7:06 you actually made a contribution. I give you an A for text analysis.
ReplyDeleteSome hear (like BB) have offered "insightful traditional Christian" "solutions but stopped for not wanting to throw pearl before swine.
Other well meaning alternatives get stuck in the repetitive standard Baptist TV evangelist message turned blogosphere.
Otherwise your spot on if you are not into entertainment.
Nck
The gaslighting in Armstrongism never stops.
ReplyDeleteI think 7:06 makes some valid points. Armstrongites aren't substandard people, and not all those in leadership positions always have to be in the same category. But it's interesting how 7:06 concludes by weaponizing that, as though, almost in the same breath, he or she is saying that people who aren't in the church are substandard people.
ReplyDeleteHow can you look at the COGs and not recognize that from the inception of WCG, there was always so much corruption, so many bad actors, so much chaos, injustice, and abuse, and no one has ever had a solution for any of it. This is the example we spent our lives setting?
If any of the predictions the church made had come true, and there was a tribulation and then people from the church were put in charge of building a new "utopia," considering the example the church has historically set, in what substantive way would that "world tomorrow" be any different than "the world" we already have today?
But of course, to add insult to injury, the church's predictions always failed. Considering the church's bad example and taking Deut 18:21-23 into account as well, it's almost like there never was any god in any of it. It's just people doing what people are gonna do, and always trying to get away with whatever they can. You have to admit, if the church was never more than just a church of men, it certainly would explain everything.
I would love it if someone could distinguish for me the difference between "the way of the world" and the "way of the church." In practice, I don't see any significant differences in the end results of "living god's way," and it's hard for me to imagine what kind of hairs one would have to split, or how arbitrary the line would wind up being, if one tried to draw a distinction. And if we weren't living god's way, then what the hell were we doing? How was it not all just a huge waste of time and money? If you have to draw a distinction between "the church's way" and "god's way," isn't that the same as admitting god had no significant effect on the church? And if that's true, did he ever have anything to do with it at all?
It's funny to me how people like 7:06 think that by not forgetting religion, that they're somehow not living "the way of the world." It just winds up being a distinction without a difference.
None of that makes the people in the church substandard, but by the same token, the people who aren't in the church, you know, the ones out "seeking their desires in the way of the world today," they aren't substandard either, even though the church has always made them out to be.
"The only solution is to forget religion and seek their desires in the way of the world today."
ReplyDeleteThe only solution? How about this one? Forget religion and seek God!
Forget the supposed "leaders" (they are all HWA ordained anyway), forget the supposed organizations!
Seek God like Abraham did! He didn't need "leaders" nor an organization.
Show me evidence that your "position" as a "leader" was ordained by God and maybe I'll choose to support you. Until there's evidence of your calling you're just another self imposed "leader". I'm referring to all the self important ones out there. All the "clergy class" in the orgs whether COGWA, UCG, LCG and even those independents who yhink they have a calling from God just because they once attended A.C. or were ordained by HWA, or ordained by someone, who was ordained by someone, who was ordained by someone who was ordained by HWA. That is a rebellious chain, an ego driven chain camouflaged with a so called desire to serve. But in truth just an ego trip!
If you are a "leader" in any of the cog groups what would you do if a "member" called you by your first name? Or did your mom and dad really name you Mister? Is your first name Mister? Such an ego driven, self ordained (started by HWA) system that has been worshipped for way too long. God destroyed that system but you all want to force its continuance. Sad, very sad!
Enough of my rant, its just when someone mentions "leader" it really pisses me off. I have God's Holy Spirit, I am of the Royal Priesthood. I don't need a modern day Korah trying to take my "position" in the Family of God! If you don't get what I'm saying about Korah you're blind. Korah was a Levite wanting to be an Aaronic Priest, you modern day, HWA ordained "ministers", are trying to quench the Spirit within God's Royal Priesthood and remove us from our rightful place. You're trying to push yourselves into a position over us. And way too many have given in to your subterfuge!
It's time for the "clergy class" system, the Mr. Minister system, the you have to have a "leader" system to end. It's corrupt, and I believe a stench to God. It's all just a bunch of bullshit!
Kevin Mc
7.06 PM
ReplyDeleteHWA splinter members have had their minds imprisoned by the many lies of their churches. This blog tries to set members free by exposing these lies. For instance, these churches try to turn members into automatons, controlled by the supposed master race ministers. This robs members of their ability to grow and flourish like the tree in Psalm 1:3. It's the ministers that are the destroyers.
Please engage your brain before you post.
Why do you think God isn't blessing these churches?
excellent post 7:06pm
ReplyDeleteyou've pretty much summed up this blog and others like it....they point out a few kooks (who are likely not truly in The Church) and try to paint everyone with the same brush, trying to discredit God and His instructions to His people so they won't feel guilty for ignoring Him, and they can continue on living life as they please with a clear conscience.
their time is coming.
Someone must be challenging Winnail's position on something to prompt this type of open targeting openly in their weekly update. It's poor leadership and lack of control of the ministry that puts people in positions where they speak out, which he interprets as being critical. This is the same stuff said in the early 90s as thing were falling apart in WCG. Maybe it would be helpful if HE would stop targeting people then hopefully God wouldn't judge and condemn him the way he's done others.
ReplyDelete6:39AM is on to something. Doug wrote that Satan:
ReplyDeletewill use anyone—members and ministers—to sow discord and do his work
How often does a COG leader accuse ministers in his own group of being under Satan's influence? That's what Winnail has done here! Winnail has already lost his precious Living University, and Weston is probably getting ready to forcibly retire the 77-year-old Winnail and replace him with someone younger and more compliant to Weston's wishes. Soon, Winnail will have no power in the group, and the loss understandably frightens him. But for Winnail to accuse his fellow ministers of sowing discord under Satan's influence? That's extreme and suggests something more may be going on.
nck,I have noted on many occasions that people attracted to Armstrongism generally do seem to share certain personality traits, but I've stopped short of referring to them as "swine". Not only is that name overly cruel, it's also one of those Armstrong "shibboleths". We must remember that they are victims, after all, until they make a conscious decision not to be. That they could so decide is a good basis for hope.
ReplyDeleteArmstrongism in several ways is like communism. It is an applied religious philosophy which can be individually practiced in the privacy of one's home with minimal damage, but the minute it begins to become organized into a small group or church, the very tenets it embraces create a government setting which produces leaders who automatically become corrupted and abusive. As in the case of communism, this "government" has now been tried and has been an abysmal failure every single time, no matter what leaders attempted it, and regardless of their personalities and character prior to their attempts to institute it. Over decades, its leaders start out with good intentions, only to have the very tenets they preach completely contaminate and subvert their efforts, and themselves as human beings. The idea that this could be an archetype for a future world-dominating utopia is absolutely laughable! It bears no resemblance whatever to the precepts and teachings of Jesus Christ, and even perverts the principles embraced by Moses.
Conservatives have a descriptive acronym, "RINO", meaning "Republican in name only". Armstrongism is "CINO". HWA took the schoolteacher, which Jesus had fulfilled, and refiltered all of Jesus' work through it, nullifying and reinterpreting everything that Jesus accomplished for mankind through His life, death, and resurrection. HWA, COG-7, The Adventists, and others have reduced the epochal events of the first century into just one more Pete Townshend "Here's the new boss, same as the old boss" dystopian situation.
If Armstrongism were God's forced update soon to be downloaded upon and overwriting humanity, then all of the evidence from the beta-tests in which we all participated indicates that heaven would then be hell. Fortunately, I believe some better programming exists and awaits us all. We've got to continue to hope for that, or we may as well all throw up our hands, give up hope, and and become atheist.
BB
Kevin Mc said: Forget religion and seek God! Show me evidence that your "position" as a "leader" was ordained by God and maybe I'll choose to support you.
ReplyDeleteWhat you don't know is that my relationship with God has been strong for well over 80 years. I do not need any support from human beings here or elsewhere. My purpose in making the 7:06 post here was to support the Christian Faith. If you have a god that is not the source of true Christian faith and it would be classed as the world's god without Jesus the Christ. Of course this is just my opinion and you can have yours.
BB, In defense of myself, I was just using a one liner expression.
ReplyDeleteThe rest of your posting is one of those to ponder, as olden times.
Since the 1st of January I notice a milder aproach. You either still got it, your new years resolutions are still working, or you are taking your medicine. :-)
Thanks for another intelligent posting, to be agreed or disagreed with, even if provoked.
Nck
BTW I believe God is Japanese. That's why the Japanese worked with HWA to learn about Judaism.
ReplyDeleteDennis does ponder why God worked in KAIZEN manner according to the lean and agile method in creation and I am sure management too, hence the many races and creatures.
The Fordian top down Fordism approach worked for a while in a production environment.
Nck
Winnail has no clue as to why HWA got to meet the Japanese emperor as a citizen. And why the Japanese worked with WCG. His article probably gives clues as to why WCG worked with Japan but not the other way around. It's no coincidence a former Japanese minister of education and technology studied at AC for a while at about the same time BB got turned off. They both practiced KAIZEN. But Winnail got stuck in Fordism producing all types of Fords as long as they choose a black one.
ReplyDeleteNck
Why is Kevin Mc demanding to proof on anything? Maybe if you did not come across as such a cranky angry man people would carry on conversations with you. Instead, you insult us.
ReplyDeleteThank, nck. I hadn't noticed any particular mildness, and didn't make any New Years resolutions, but if there has been a change, it could be all the relaxing work I recently did to the bike (new tires, new shocks, new rear brake caliper, new S & S Super E Carburetor, and new mufflers), and then the frequent rides. Also, my only meds are the occasional can of Budweiser. I have pretty much stuck to the original doctrines concerning Doctors and the medical profession all my life. I did find a practically new casette player for $15 at Zia Records, so have been enjoying all my old cassettes from the '80s and '90s, which had been salted away in a closet. Hadn't heard some of the stuff in years, and that's taken the edge off. Kid Ramos, Henry Lee Summer, the Nixons, Havana Black, the Screaming Trees, Ian Moore, the Four Horsemen, Blackie Lawless and WASP, just to name a few.
ReplyDeleteI've also gotten to the point where very little seems important enough to argue about. Much better to spend the effort fighting personal or job-related challenges. Surely at this point in time, everyone here is a confirmed Atheist, a Christian, or a member of an ACOG or independent Armstrongite. So the arguments are never resolved, and in the aftermath, people go their way more firmly convinced that their original position was correct in the first place. It would be rare indeed if any of us got to assist another blogger into a better philosophy or better way of life. Mostly, supportive comments just make people feel better and more secure about the way in which they believe or don't believe. Each of the three main groups has its own Hallelujah chorus.
There are actually a few people whose flow of ideas is stimulating to the intellect. That's what drew me to these so-called dissident sites in the first place. Further education. The interesting posters, at least in my opinion, tend to be those who have a constant stream of new topics and ideas to discuss, and not the repeaters or people who just want to argue.
Guess that captures it all in a nutshell. Happy New Year!
BB
Annon Said; Why is Kevin Mc demanding to proof on anything? Maybe if you did not come across as such a cranky angry man people would carry on conversations with you. Instead, you insult us.
ReplyDeleteReply to 12.05: It seems my point was misinterpreted. The point was that anything that questions the Christian Faith is not a subject I am interested in. I could point to many scriptures that support Faith as the important factor. If a person wants proof of God and Jesus Christ they do not have Faith. This is not an insult its a truth the Christian religion requires. I do not mean to be a cranky old man, I suspect that come along with growing old. Some day you may be old also.
Happy New Year!
ReplyDeleteBB
January 18, 2020 at 12:42 PM
The "new year" beings in the spring you know, when things are getting all aviv.
BB
ReplyDeleteTrue.
No person ever convinced me of anything. Many however have served as catalysts. Your bike may also have or be a catalyst for good. And..... no, trading guy, I said catalyst not capitalist. Happy New Year to Hank (Orthodox) Hanegraaf perhaps.
I love it '80s and 90's I just watched a movie (Ron Howard?) about the Beatles 1963. Screaming American boomer girls at a time another segment peopled a college in bricketwood. Same hairdo, different convictions.
Nck
Though a few tweaks in his tone and a little less harsh language would help, I'm glad to see Kevin Mc back.
ReplyDeleteJim, I never left. There will be no tweaks or anything else, I call 'em as I see 'em and if people like 12:05pm don't like it tough. I'm not here to win a popularity contest.
ReplyDeletekm
The comments in this posting read like a bunch of tweets from our illustrious Commander-in-Chief......
ReplyDeleteI get it, km, I can get worked up myself. But, not letting it get me as much as it once did.
ReplyDeleteIn Armstrongism, they have always treated Satan and his ability to influence as if he were omnipresent, like God. Mainstream Christianity makes a clear distinction regarding this. Also, to my recollection, although they claimed to have all the answers (the truth) about unfathomable beings, Armstrongism never provided a clear explanation as to how God would be omnipresent. In retrospect, one would have thought they might have turned to panentheism, as it makes perfect sense. My personal opinion is that God created the physical things which we perceive not from nothing, but from elements of Himself.
ReplyDeleteFunny. They went out of their way to parse the Holy Spirit, but ignored very important details regarding God and Satan. Orthodox Jews acknowledge that God is unfathomable. The minute we attempt to define Him, we impose human limitations upon Him. Satan does have severe limitations placed upon him, and cannot do most of the things that teachers of Armstrongism imply. It would be both humorous and terrifying if Satan actually came into any of their presence, even just to mess with them.
BB
To explain my earlier points.
ReplyDeleteSatan could have been part of God's first or original feedback loop into successful management and improvement (KAIZEN).
Then God decided to implement agile self steering teams (mankind) through another feedback loop.
Scrum master Moses couldn't get through to Product Owner "the Word". One of the results of the 1st sprint was to send Jesus.
I have a feeling we are just in a 3rd "agile sprint" of something big.
We have come to see ourselves as "the product" through our isolated location. While in reality we are the workers in the room to whom Steve Jobs likes to introduce the latest product which we have come up with.
The clients are the Grey billions of people who have gone before us and are dead now. Some of them knew what we need others dont have a clue.
The many cultures, ideas, races, philosophies, edifices, agile teams of the God corporation have produced so far are fascinating. For a tourist they are. When you are part of one of the teams cooperation, working hours and pay and overbearing management can be less satisfying than the ideal.
Yet every sprint is delivering an enhanced product. Another problem is posed by the coming 9.5 billion people in the teams. Yet this number could not be fathomed by the club of rome even until 1970 when 3.5 billion would have been deemed the limit.
But hey. The teams do not even begin to know what products are coming. Working on one we find a solution for another.
Nck
Kevin Mc Loved your post. thanks for bringing my attention to what the rebellion of Korah actually was. the explanations we've had for this in the past have been telling people to be under the thumb of the ministers and HWA. Your insightful comment made me think about this more and realise it was Korah, wanting to usurp the place of the High Priest, who was the person appointed to make presentation for the people to God. Now that we have Jesus Christ as our High Priest, if any man tries to usurp His position and come between people and God then he is doing a Korah. No one is to lord it over their brethren We are all equal before God and Christ is our Head. I'll be glad when more people come out from this bondage as it is hard to be with people who still are under the influence of the ministerial brainwashing. I realise that there are different kinds of roles that people have, but to lord it over others, is just not on. It will be good when we can stop being knowledge focused and actually have real affection and regard for others, instead of carrying on as if we are part of some business corporation. So thanks again, Kevin for your post .
ReplyDeleteKevin Mc said: I have God's Holy Spirit, I am of the Royal Priesthood.
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Where does Jesus Christ fit in this statement?
Nck - what is next from you - DevOps and Azure?
ReplyDeleteMaybe some Python and JSON?
HWA came from the COBOL world with card decks.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteKevin Mc said: I have God's Holy Spirit, I am of the Royal Priesthood.
Question: Where does Jesus Christ fit in this statement?
January 19, 2020 at 6:53 AM""""
Interesting that you don't recognize Jesus in the word "God".
km
You're quite welcome Tessa.
ReplyDeletekm
9:51am For the record, my comment that you quoted wasn't directed at you, unless of course you're a "leader" ordained in the corrupt HWA line of ordinations.
ReplyDeleteI said this, specifying who the comment was for~
"I'm referring to all the self important ones out there. All the "clergy class" in the orgs whether COGWA, UCG, LCG and even those independents who think they have a calling from God"
So if you think I was aiming solely at you, you're mistaken.
km
TLA.
ReplyDeleteIf we are exploring "creation" creative processes and purpose, why not! Perhaps a nice diversion from my usual *Cia opening doors" harping on the American empire as God's tool on earth.
Nck
nck - another diversion for you (and Dennis if he is reading) - the Bible states God made man in His image, but isn't it more the truth that man has made God in man's image?
ReplyDeleteWhat is the advantage of the human male body to an all powerful spirit being?
It seems that the descriptions we have of God in the Bible make Him the same as any one of our fictional super heroes - Superman, the Avengers, Thor, etc.
Humans seem to have this desire for superhuman male figures - in recent times females have been added to the superhuman list.
And, if you believe in the gap theory, these superhumans have been playing solitaire or dinosaur games for the past 14 billion years until it was time for humans to arrive.
KM said: So if you think I was aiming solely at you, you're mistaken.
ReplyDeleteI pointed out that my focus was on the true believers in the Christian Faith where ever they were. You apparently believe you one step under Jesus Christ so there are no human beings who can be more righteous than you are. I have a little problem with that because spiritual growth is a process that takes a life time. I agree that Armstrongism as a religious organization collapse and I left completely 20 years ago. This does not mean that God is no longer working in Christian churches. Do to my age and other factors I am no longer associated with a church of any denomination, but does not mean I respect those who are teaching the Christian Faith from the Christian Bible. I fellowship with many in different local church congregations. I hope this clears up what I tried to point out in Gary's Blog.
TLA
ReplyDeleteIf this blog serves any purpose then one needs to find common ground with an audience. My belief system is inconsequential.
The Bible does not state HOW God creates. And I proposed an agile system seeing the many types of hominids that are found.
I also know that the original God is a woman. (a meaty one that is) If you look at the whims, insecurities, cruelty and kindness of the Hebrew God one could make a case of femininity. Besides this stuff of wanting to marry and making covenants all the time. Even the name "the Word", I mean common since when did women stop talking and they are more creative too. Typical female stuff. A man's a word is a man's word.
Nck
"You apparently believe you one step under Jesus Christ so there are no human beings who can be more righteous than you are."
ReplyDeleteHow the hell did you come to that conclusion? I never said anything like that, nor did I disparage going to any church. I merely pointed out that our personal relationship with God is what should take precedence, not what church we go to or what position we think we have in the church.
km
" I agree that Armstrongism as a religious organization collapse and I left completely 20 years ago."
ReplyDeleteI left WCG 28 years ago. Big whoop, none of that matters!
km
nck, and here I was under the impression that both male and female traits are after the image of God. Hmmm ;-)
ReplyDeletekm
Yes km.
DeleteI Am AND Me Too.
The twinity.
Nck
Since the topic has been brought up, I stopped attending WWCG services 35 years ago. I once toyed with joining a splinter, only to be warned away by the holy spirit with the words 'you're joining gang.'
ReplyDeleteSo scratch the surface, and it's gang rather than biblical morality that prevails in these churches. Which means they don't have Gods approval.
"Which means they don't have Gods approval.
ReplyDeleteJanuary 20, 2020 at 8:42 AM"
As a group/organization I agree 100% with your statement. Individually it's not our place to determine who has God's approval. It's a good thing that it's not our call who is a true Christian. Whether one is a cog christian, an evangelical christian, a Roman Catholic christian, or any others. Only God knows the heart and only God can make that call.
km
nck, the twinkity? ;-)
ReplyDeletekm
km
ReplyDeleteI prefer the intewpetwation of Dr Elmer Fudd the harmless nebbish over those of "the mighty hunter" nimwod.
nck
Km
ReplyDelete'Only God can make that call.'
That's nonsense. 'You shall know them by their fruits' tells us that in many,if not most cases, we can indeed. Everyone has the personal responsibility of evaluating those around them. It's part of the 'watch' command. For the sake of self protection, everyone needs to know if others are friend or foe. Christ said beware of the Pharisees for good reason. Since people want to get away with their crimes, this responsibility is attacked by the criminally minded and abusive
Herb ministers.
3:01pm Bless your little heart.
ReplyDeletekm
It's easy for DW to sit in his ivory tower and pronounce judgments on the membership each week in his "profitable" commentary. The only ones who profit from his judgements are his ministry...gotta protect the good'ole boys club! Me thinks thou doth protest too much, something prick your pride?
ReplyDelete3:01,
ReplyDeleteThis verse is given as a way of identifying false prophets not for sitting around and saying this or that person is not a Christian. The fruits we will be judging are largely centered around whether their prophecies come true.
If someone states they are a Christian it really isn't our place to judge their Christianity. Nothing wrong with not trusting someone due to what we have seen in their lives, but they also might be starting from a tough position in their Christian walk and are making mistakes right and left. I might not hire them as an air traffic controller, but I also cannot judge whether they are in fact Christians.
Exactly Jim, you'll notice that I "tweaked" my response. 😁
ReplyDeleteFrom a previous thread with video on this blog explaining what is meant by saying "bless your heart".
https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2019/08/the-know-it-all-splinter-group-leader.html
km