"Behold the Day Will Come...."
When in Portland, I had thought to invite the RCG minister over for a chat. Pretty sure he'd not know me but then with my luck... I did invite two JW's in one time for a chat, not revealing my background. When they sat down, they just sat there saying nothing until I had to ask "What would you like to talk about?" The said that they did not because "We've never gotten this far before".
Painful as it is to me and done in the innocence and sincerity of my youth, I ended up pastoring in a cult. That was not my intention. That was not my inclination of personality. That was not what I thought I was aligning myself with. I thought I had found "the truth" and the True Church that must no doubt go along with it.
Sigh...
The Worldwide Church of God was a cult. All of her splits, splinters and slivers are cults. Gerald Flurry and soon son, is a cult leader. Dave Pack is a cult leader. Bob Thiel is a cult leader, albeit a weak one. Gerald Weston is a cult leader, sincere I imagine but ill informed theologically and mistaken, as are the many lesser gods in the former WCG pantheon of the self appointed and out of the mainstream Christian and informed perspectives in New Testament studies, doctrine and belief. In short, the more not like that one is, to them, the closer one is to the truth, which they are not.
What is a religious Cult?
1) Exclusive. They may say, "We're the only ones with the truth; everyone else is wrong; and if you leave our group your salvation is in danger."
2) Secretive. Certain teachings are not available to outsiders or they're presented only to certain members, sometimes after taking vows of confidentiality.
3) Authoritarian. A human leader expects total loyalty and unquestioned obedience.
For the most part, this third definition of cult is being used less and less today. Experts who watch for dangerous or harmful religious groups now use the term new religious movements. The word cult can hurt people because it carries so much negative meaning. My sister was accused of being in a cult just because she preferred hanging out with Christian friends rather than going out drinking with other friends. She might have been in with a group of people that was unlike the norm (because they devotedly followed Christ), but she certainly wasn't following a harmful faith.
My friend Jason, however, fell in love with a girl who was part of a church that was exclusive, secretive, and authoritarian. At first he was happy to tell me about what he was learning. But as he got further into that religious group, he told me less and less. When the leaders of that church told him that he had to quit our church to keep dating the girl, I got very suspicious. When he got married and his parents couldn't even attend the wedding because they weren't members of Jason's new religion, it was clear that this was harmful."
An uncomfortable visit inside the Headquarters of The Jehovah's Witnesses
I like the picture of the closed gate. It represents, in a way, the closed Armstrongite mind.
ReplyDeleteSince Dave can't control the airspace above his campus, I wonder what would happen if some hobbyist made the symbolic gesture of flying a drone over the property, especially at a time when there were activities ongoing. If the drone were camera equipped, so much the better. That would certainly disrupt the "secretive" element of their cult, and play with the "authoritarian" structure. One can only make things secretive and authoritarian if outsiders accept those controls, which most folks do, because cults are a self-hurting smelly mess of shite to begin with. People such as former members, and relatives of members who watch helplessly to what it does to the kids are usually the only ones who care.
Once when I was a student at AC, since pretty much everyone on campus took care of security matters, a friend and I approached some outsiders to determine what they were up to. We were shocked when one of the intruders asked "Are you guys actually students here?" We answered in the affirmative and asked why he would ask such a question. The dude replied that we just didn't look like the rest of the students. Our clothing was up to date, we weren't wearing glasses or carrying briefcases, and we looked athletic. I don't know if the guy realized how his remark was affecting us, but seeing as how we were some of the campus rebels or outlaws, we were actually proud that he would have seen us as being different.
That little anecdote illustrates an important point. You always want to be cognizant of and to preserve your own sense of identity. That is going to preserve your credibility amongst the broader base of humanity. If a person or group has a few valuable nuggets, or something you feel is important to learn, you really don't want to subvert your personality for them as they would normally expect or require. However, even if you do, it's important to always know that in reality, it is the submissive member who is in control. Group authority over you only exists so long as you choose to accept it. Obviously Dennis did have a firm grasp of himself even throughout his time as a WCG minister, and was able to rely on the science element which was intrinsic to his being as his ultimate salvation from the cult. Of course, in so doing, a person runs the risk of all the culties then saying "Oh, he was probably never really converted." But, the culties don't really matter, so that's no great loss!
BB
My question is this, If a person loses their credentials, is it only valid in the church that revoked them or is it like a professional license?
ReplyDeleteConsequently, your ministerial credentials from the Church are hereby revoked. You are not to hold yourself out as a minister or employee of the Church. Global sent this to Pack.
Where do they "renew" their credentials, do they just apply to the state in which they live? Does that state just say ok, here you go, pay a fee on your way out? It seems to me that if someone can just get a credential without any proof of education and certification then all the members should get theirs also and then they would all be on equal footing and then no one would be the boss.
ReplyDeleteWhat RCG members WANTED versus the REALITY of what they actually got
1. RCG members wanted to find the one true splinter group. They found another false one, a real satanic fraud.
2. RCG members wanted HWA's old teachings. They ended up getting the farthest thing away from what HWA had taught.
3. RCG members did not want to go along with the apostate Tkaches and their doctrinal changes. Now, they go along with whatever massive heresies Pack-of-lies makes up, and are required to pretend to agree with them, and to have proven them, and to be happy about them.
4. RCG members wanted the truest and bestest religion on Earth. They found one of the worst religions on the entire planet.
5. RCG members wanted to find God's one true representative on planet Earth. They found one of Satan's very own favorite imposters.
6. RCG members wanted true godliness and respect. They found nothing but yelling and spitting and insults and threats.
7. RCG members wanted honesty and integrity. They found fraud and theft on a massive scale under klepto-Dave.
8. RCG members wanted to support the truth of God. They ended up supporting the lies of Satan.
9. RCG members wanted their money to go to a good cause. It ended up supporting the cult compound lifestyle of Dave Pack.
10. RCG members wanted to be very careful about what they believed and did not want to fall for just anything like some others had done. They ended up being the biggest suckers around, falling for whatever Pack-of-lies makes up next.
11. RCG members wanted to be the wisest people around. They ended up being some of the stupidest fools anywhere.
12. RCG members wanted to have happy marriages. They ended up divorced due to their own faults.
13. RCG members wanted to learn the way of life that leads to every good thing that everyone wants. They ended up being lied to, betrayed, robbed, and left destitute.
14. RCG members wanted good, clean living. David Pack continually vomited all over them week after week and year after year.
15. RCG members wanted the truth to set them free. Instead, a Pack-of-lies enslaved them with continual fundraising and a very heavy “common” theft burden to bear.
16. RCG members wanted to accomplish something great for God. They accomplished something for Satan instead.
17. RCG members wanted honor for their noble efforts. They earned everlasting shame for their great folly.
18. RCG members wanted to get saved. They ended up getting lost in insanity.
Tragically, this list could go on and on.
For some reason LCG has a 2012 article on the front page of its website today, and it illustrates a lot of what Dennis wrote.
ReplyDeleteTo Give Or Not To Give?
The writer uses an interesting dodge that is common in splinters that are trying to look less extreme, calling LCG "where God is primarily working right now." God may be working with other groups, but only secondarily, and it is better for you to give your money to LCG to solve real problems than to give your money to needy individuals who will still have problems after you give.
Dennis should be more aware than most that the problem of "certain men creeping in unawares" will exist for as long as these groups allow whole families to attend together, without fiercely policing the loyalty of each family member. In any family unit, some members are more brainwashed than others, and there is probably at least one who is only attending because of family and is willing to tell the truth to non-church friends and to blogs like Banned.
I must say this was a good post. I really enjoyed the articles on the Christianity Today especially the one about the leading of the Holy Spirit' ASB
ReplyDelete@ 10:35, "ministerial credentials" are whatever a church says they are. Global could only revoke Dave Pack's Global credentials, but that didn't stop Pack from making up his own credentials.
ReplyDeleteThis is a big source of politics in the splinters. When COGWA split from UCG, the COGWA leaders accepted everyone's UCG ordinations as valid in order to get numbers for their group. Now, years later, if someone with a UCG ordination moves to COGWA, there's no guarantee it will be accepted unless the elder previously had a WCG ordination.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 11:03 AM told...
The 18 Restored Truths
If you want a good tour of the JW HQ made by a former member, take a look.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRf8u0Ibkww
One second while I dry my eyes and glue a permanent frown upon my face.
ReplyDeleteThat was a hard little video to watch in so many ways. The RCG keeps a vigilant watch upon their own members who came in openly and fully aware. What is most perplexing and ironic is that at the same time there is an extreme pressure upon the member to integrate into all things church, there is a continual hard block in place that prohibits the lay member from any path that infringes upon the established echelon which is closed always.
So the hard sell is to motivate oneself into that which looks good on the periphery but the next step is non available and there is no door let alone an open door.
The temple at Jerusalem in Christ's time is a perfect example. The sanctuary followed by the priest's court followed by the women's court followed by the outer court. Jesus Christ himself never got beyond the outer court nor did his disciples who followed him. Such activity in the outer court with many people in the Holy Day seasons probably was pretty impressive in the eyes of Romans and the priests themselves who were happy with all the money flowing unto them and not have to be "bothered" with the common man in their space.
As Byker Bob said, you will lose your identity by engrossing yourself into the system established by these men. I had a close friend who always questioned me why I wasn't participating in everything. "You mean you went for a hike by yourself when they were having snacks and table games after a Feast day". As these two young men in the video said; "you must be confusing me with someone else".
I was just preserving my identity and my good friend could never see it. As I crept out openly, my very smart friend said to me; "but this is God's true Church". No answer from me and not needed at that very time because this friend and many others had taken on the RCG identity of exclusivity and possessors of special knowledge and acknowledgement that their leader is an authority under God or god.
As I have said before, the Son of Man will never get beyond that closed gate at the entrance of the RCG because they don't even know his identity.
What is a church? I am sure RCG has gone through all of the procedures in the State of Ohio to make a Religious Church and create his own ministry papers. This would have been done for tax purposes and other things dealing with religion. ASB
ReplyDeleteYears ago, lay members began in droves to figure out that they had been baptized into Jesus Christ, and not a specific church corporate. In other words, they were not the domain or property of a specific church. They were Christians.
ReplyDeleteIt followed shortly thereafter that the ministers who were told this by departing members found that they could apply the same type of reasoning to themselves. They were ordained ministers of Jesus Christ, not ministers of Worldwide or whatever splinter. Since that point in time, many ministers and members have "left the church" as we used to call it, and have simply taken up with a different splinter. There are people who have "left the church" multiple times. A classic example would be an individual who left the Tkach WCG to go with UCG, and then left to go with COGWA. Some left a third time and became independents.
Truth is, it really doesn't matter any more. It is all a nostalgia act, or club, with everybody running around proclaiming that they are the Philadelphians, and those outside their group are Laodicean. What I'd like to know is precisely who they think God inspired to self-proclaim as Philadelphian. Who, if any, actually has the gift of discernment on this, to where they know beynd the shadow of doubt who is Phillie, and who is Lao? The movement has been reduced to braggadocio and name calling. If there were a group that didn't indulge in this name calling, and if there actually were such a thing as church eras, those who disregarded those terms completely would probably be the Philadelphians.
BB
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 4:24 PM said...“Now, years later, if someone with a UCG ordination moves to COGWA, there's no guarantee it will be accepted unless the elder previously had a WCG ordination..”
A Herbert W. Armstrong era Worldwide Church of God ordination of an Ambassador College graduate was supposedly the real deal.
When no WCG ministers went with Gerald Flurry, he set up all sorts of arrogant and malicious bums as PCG “ministers.”
In the UCG, even before the UCG-COGWA split, godless bums could get newly credentialed as UCG “ministers.” It is scary to think about what the UCG tries to pass off as “ministers” after the split.
This is the church era when all sorts of godless bums can become “ministers.”
And really bad former WCG ministers (like Flurry, Pack, and Weinland) can become an Apostle, Joshua the High Priest, Elijah the Prophet, That Prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18-19, one of the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11:3-12, and even the Messiah. Well, false ones, anyway.
Every lying fraudster gets to make up his own credentials. The worse the fraudster, the more outrageous the credentials he makes up. Note (that is, mark), for example, Gerald Flurry and David Pack, Satan's favorite false prophets of this church era, because they are the most arrogant and the nastiest.
COGWA would be well advised to check over very carefully the so-called “credentials” of anyone wanting to slip into its ministry at this point. The current crop of leaders at COGWA picked up enough bad habits already from the UCG.
11.03 AM
ReplyDeleteWhat strikes me about your 18 points is that they are the consequence of members failing to grow up and go 'solo'. 'Prove all things,' following Christ directly, acquiring wisdom and understanding, are all personal responsibilities. Many ditch and sub contract these responsibilities to wolves like Pack, and get eaten alive as a consequence. This is like the stragglers in Moses Exodus being killed by their enemies.
Members in Dave's group and similar, should be struggling to mature rather than agreeing to be a cult zombies.
DD: I see things are getting rather ridiculous here so I want to tell you that I was glad to read the articles in Christianity Today. I am serious about my religious beliefs and choose to read things that support Christianity since my has been built on the faith in God and the written word. The article " What does the Holy Spirit do" explained my belief as well as I could. ASB
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteOne very serious problem is that one never knows ahead of time what a self-appointed cult leader will come up with in the future, after one has invested (or more correctly, gambled away) too much time and money to be able to admit easily that it was all a horrible mistake.
Dave Pack promoting himself from Minister to Apostle seemed reasonable since he wanted to be the head honcho running his own RCG church. HWA had taught that the church was led by an Apostle, not by a Prophet like Gerald Flurry had thought.
Dave Pack promoting himself to Joshua the High Priest seemed totally unnecessary, but could be passed off as just the peculiar way these types think and behave. Let them have their jollies, and hope that no bad practical consequences come of it.
Dave Pack promoting himself to Elijah the Prophet was a big change. Dave Pack had to posthumously promote HWA out of the way to the “Office of Moses” to make room for himself in that slot. Dave Pack had started off his RCG cult by writing that the understanding that HWA was the Elijah who was prophesied to “restore ALL things” was a great wall of defence against doctrinal heresy. Dave Pack had even written a booklet proving that HWA was Elijah the Prophet. Of course, that booklet later got deleted from his RCG cult's website.
One of Dave Pack's “130 PROOFS” that he himself was the Elijah was that he had “restored” the “common” doctrine that everyone had to send him virtually everything they had.
Dave Pack promoting himself to That Prophet of Deuteronomy 18:18-19 was a big change too. Dave Pack had previously written a booklet proving that Jesus Christ was That Prophet. Dave Pack did this to refute Gerald Flurry's earlier claim that he was That Prophet. Dave Pack had to delete this booklet too that he had written.
Interestingly, after writing a lot of literature, Dave Pack tried to reassure everyone by saying that Satan would not have him go to that much work just to have him go bad in the end. It was one of those comments that stick in one's head.
Dave Pack's latest announced plan to promote himself to Messiah is probably just the logical outcome of his tragic case of demon possession, or Satan possession.
After that, it looks like the only thing left is for Dave Pack to stab God the Father in the back and pull the rug out from under his feet.
ReplyDelete1018 noted: Interestingly, after writing a lot of literature, Dave Pack tried to reassure everyone by saying that Satan would not have him go to that much work just to have him go bad in the end. It was one of those comments that stick in one's head."
puts me in mind of, to me, Dave's greatest subconscious admission of exactly what he feared and intended but didn't want you to think he feared or intended it. He's thinking he's going to go bad in the end, which may be more near than he would like to think about.
"I want to make a statement about...me...now, if I became deceived, I will never tell you what I'm going to tell you now...I am telling you if I go off into strange ideas, misconduct, rebellion, you name it, don't follow me. I want to tell you that now, because if I start doing that I'm gonna try to get you to follow me! I'm gonna come to you and tell you it doesn't apply, it doesn't mean me, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's OK to follow me because ABCD and XY and Z. Do you understand what I'm saying? Listen to me now, when I tell you don't follow me if I go off into weird ideas, or if I get off into other things that are total absolutely unscriptural conduct, because if I do I'm gonna paint it with a different face and try to get you to follow me. Do you understand what I'm saying brethren? Please remember that, because I promise you that if I become deceived, I'll forget it, and I'll want you to forget it...And I hope you'll remember it well enough to quote it right back to me...But I'll tell you what, I'm not going anywhere."
David C Pack
December 12, 1998
"I want to make a statement about...me..."
ReplyDeleteLike Kane's "Declaration of Principles" (in 'Citizen Kane') if Dave was sent a copy of his statement, he would probably glance at it and rip it up.
Dave must have been wrestling with his inner demons when he gave that December 12 1998 speech. Well, he lost the mental battle. Another reminder that character can't be given, but must be developed. It must be heart breaking for parents who perceive that their baptised kids have fallen away, and there's nothing they can do about it.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 4:43 AM said...“Dave must have been wrestling with his inner demons when he gave that December 12 1998 speech. Well, he lost the mental battle.”
It is no wonder that Dave Pack lost the mental battle with his inner demons. Dave Pack was probably outnumbered by a Legion to One.
Anon, January 1, 2020 at 10:18 PM, wrote:
ReplyDelete******
"...Interestingly, after writing a lot of literature, Dave Pack tried to reassure everyone by saying that Satan would not have him go to that much work just to have him go bad in the end. It was one of those comments that stick in one's head.
Dave Pack's latest announced plan to promote himself to Messiah is probably just the logical outcome of his tragic case of demon possession, or Satan possession.
After that, it looks like the only thing left is for Dave Pack to stab God the Father in the back and pull the rug out from under his feet..."
******
Dave Pack would not knowingly stab God in the back, nor pull any rug out, any more than the ancient Pharisees would admit to such behavior and they, too, were inspired by Satan. Jesus as much as said so:
"Ye do the deeds of your father..." John 8:40 Huh? Reading on:
:44 "Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
Enuf said about religious leaders focused on SELF (ves), or is it?
In Matthew 23 Christ appears to be calling the Pharisees names like: hypocrites many times, blind guides, fools and blind, blind guides, like unto whited sepulchres, full of hypocrisy and iniquity, serpents, generation of vipers, etc.
But Jesus was speaking to the things, the spirits, that were guiding and directing the thoughts/actions of those religious leaders and it is a generation of spirit beings. How do we know? Read on:
Matthew 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Which living Pharisee Christ had spoken to shed Abel's blood (I John 3:12, :8; Eph 6:12) and that blood of Zacharias? Not a one, but there was a generation involved that did just that:
:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
That generation still lives, and it is still messing around in the minds (Gen 6:5; Jer 17:9; Rev 12:9) of human beings (James 4:5; 2 Tim 2:26), and it is especially obvious in the minds of religious/government leaders. Then again, sin still exists in our lives too, but thankfully, this particular generation that has been here yesterday, today, and tomorrow, but not forever (Matthew 25:41, 46; 2 Peter 2:12; Ezekiel 28:19, etc.), but time will tell...
John
John
ReplyDeleteAs far as I'm concerned, you are white washing the Pharisees and evil in general by claiming that Christ was condemning evil spirits rather than humans. Christ did call his generation an evil generation.
The Gospels depiction of the Pharisees is not a realistic or accurate one historically. They were not the self righteous and hated figures in that culture scripture makes them out to be. The Sadducees were in the Roman pocket and much more suspect in the eyes of the average Jew. But you don't poke the Roman dogs
ReplyDeleteAnon, January 4, 2020 at 6:58 AM, wrote: "...John
ReplyDeleteAs far as I'm concerned, you are white washing the Pharisees and evil in general by claiming that Christ was condemning evil spirits rather than humans. Christ did call his generation an evil generation..."
******
Anon 6:58, you then must believe Jesus lied when He said the following in Matthew 23:35:
"That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar"
No doubt those alive during Jesus' day on earth was an evil time, an evil generation b/c of the evil. Where do you think the evil came from? Solely flesh and blood? Christ also did tell us that the world lies in wickedness, but He understood why that was so.
What do you do with the likes of Paul's words in Romans 7?
:21 "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me."
What do you do with the likes of James' words in James 4?
:5 "The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?" Do you just blame flesh and blood?
Jesus knew what was driving the Pharisees, in fact, mankind:
John 2 24 "But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all [men],
:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man."
Anyway, regarding Matthew 23:35, you don't believe Jesus' words as written there...and that's okay.
Time will tell...
John