Herbert W. Armstrong was part of something great. That Church was a work of miracles.Do you remember that glorious history? Too many of God’s people don’t. God challenges us to always keep the big picture.
What "beautiful truth" did the church spread around the world? What impact did "a strong hand from someplace" ever accomplish in the Philippines or elsewhere? How can "beautiful truth" end up being a law enforcement hierarchy that made Church of God member's lives miserable? How can "beautiful truth" lead so many COG members into suicide and even murder? How can "beautiful truth" lead over 400 some self-appointed lying despots to set themselves up as the REAL "one true church?" Even worse, how can a church that was filled with so much "beautiful truth" deny and continue to deny the One whom they claim to follow?Over Mr. Armstrong’s 55 years in Jesus Christ’s ministry, the work blossomed. It started as nothing and grew into a huge, Spirit-led work that spread God’s beautiful truth throughout the world.
Oh, but what about the "beautiful truth" of "give vs get?" Church member's bank accounts were bled dry by Herbert Armstrong and others demanding tithes and offerings be sent in for one emergency after another. Many times when Herbert Armstrong sent out those letters he was buying art, gold, and silver to furnish his home and office with. My family mortgaged a paid-off home to fund Herbert in one of his money demands. How is that a 'beautiful truth?"
How can we forget the Ambassador International Cultural Foundation as "beautiful truth?" AICF ended up being an enormous money drain on the church. When it could have been using the money for good, it was spending untold millions on concerts, dinners, and receptions in order to entertain the elite of Los Angeles and around the world. Thankfully, Tkach Sr. closed it all down, while today we have Flurry and Pack building or planning to build their own mini-me auditoriums to further drain followers pocketbooks.
Do you remember that history? God put our tithes and offerings to magnificent use, and we were happy to be a part of such a noble cause.
The Ambassador International Cultural Foundation, which Mr. Armstrong founded in 1975, freely sponsored humanitarian projects including archaeological digs, schools and anthropological excursions. Its activities stretched from Bombay to Brussels; the Philippines to the Netherlands; Tokyo to Cairo. We hosted projects in Jerusalem, Jordan, London, Nepal and Okinawa. Why? Because Mr. Armstrong wanted to preach the gospel “for a witness unto all nations” (Matthew 24:14).
Using the international contacts Mr. Armstrong established through the cultural foundation, God opened doors for him to meet high-ranking officials around the world. Mr. Armstrong was invited to speak publicly on many occasions, and he took those opportunities to preach the gospel—to tell people about God’s master plan and about their incredible human potential. These events opened the way for personal appearance campaigns, where he spoke to hundreds of thousands of leading people in various countries.How was a "beautiful truth" proclaimed when the church dumped millions of dollars into rebuilding the Globe Theater in London, the Wanamaker Organ in Philadelphia, and the Reagan Library in California? How did establishing Everest House Publishing create a "beautiful truth" that the world needed? With books and a magazine on sex, witchcraft, and glowing books on a mass murderer that committed genocide in the Congo, just how was this "beautiful truth?" How was dumping money into funding a Hollywood movie a "beautiful truth?"
Under Mr. Armstrong, the Church of God practiced the way of give—of godly character, generosity, cultural enrichment, true education—of beautifying the environment and caring for fellowman. Mr. Armstrong never deviated from his God-given commission, and the work prospered! His work acknowledged God’s desire to have all men saved and brought to the knowledge of His truth (1 Timothy 2:3-6). It was an inspiring display of God’s love for all mankind.Just who was "saved" by Herbert Armstrong's message" when the law replaced Jesus as the ultimate authority, just how was that "beautiful truth?"
What about today in Church of Godland? Who has that "beautiful truth" to share?
Now, did Mr. Armstrong do all that? Certainly he worked hard to implement God’s law and government and to walk by faith. But was the work so powerful and effective simply because of Mr. Armstrong’s intellect or advertising expertise? Did Mr. Armstrong swing open all those mighty doors?
No—the great God did that!
It doesn’t take great spiritual discernment to recognize that God was behind that work—God was blessing that work—God was empowering and multiplying that work—as Mr. Armstrong submitted to Him.
No man could have ever built such a marvelous and wondrous work in this satanic world. It was built and sustained by the miracles of the living God!No Church of God leader today has any "marvelous and wondrous work" that is delivering a "beautiful truth." Almost all are impotent self -appointed men who dreamed up their positions as god's anointed. God certainly was never part of the picture. That is the main reason all of the splinter groups are such epic failures today. Dave Pack's campus will never be finished so the feet of Jesus can walk the grounds with Dave as they plan Jesus' third coming. Gerald Flurry's campus is still nothing more than a boil on the Oklahoma landscape, despite the Holy Prayer Rock, and Lil Stevie's presence.
Right at the heart of Mr. Armstrong’s teaching was his instruction about the God-plane institution of family (Malachi 4:5-6). He taught us how to build beautiful marriages and to rear happy children. We educated our children with Youth Educational Services lessons; we provided our teens rich experiences through the Youth Opportunities United program—with its sporting events, talent shows and summer camps.A trail of broken marriages, divorces, suicides, broken family relationships, suicidal children and members, is NOT a legacy of Armstrongism that needs to be celebrated. Herbert Armstrong was not even able to keep his own family in the church, with most of them despising him for what he had done to the family. Youth Opportunities United gave pedophiles in the church fertile ground for new meat. Flurry's own cult has ripped families asunder with his perverse "no contact" law.
How can the son of an evangelist who was mistreated by fellow Imperial students and shunned by his own father be "beautiful truth" when he took a gun and shot himself in the head in his front yard?
How can the documented cases of ministers who were pedophiles be "beautiful truth" as they broke a sacred trust and sexually assaulted little boys and girls? How can it be "beautiful truth" when parents are sent for jail for beating their children with 2x4's?
Do you remember what life was like in the Church under Mr. Armstrong? If you were applying God’s family education, then you have personally experienced the blessings that come as a result! Do you remember that?Yes Gerald, we sure as hell do!
Never fear though, God was just testing you to see if you would stay in the church and especially in Gerald's "beautiful truth." It really did not matter that you were sexually abused or assaulted, or that you lived on the verge of poverty. Even when Terry Ratzman killed you in church services, it was all a test to see how you would react.
Naturally, the Church wasn’t perfect; there were problems. Some members and even ministers did not implement God’s loving family government the right way. But the problem went beyond simple neglect. Revelation 3:9 tells us that “the synagogue of Satan” was actually at work within the Church of the Philadelphia era—under Mr. Armstrong!
The Bible is filled with prophecies that show how God knew this crisis would happen—and actually allowed it in order to test our loyalty to Him. The Bible also shows that He is going to bring every abuse to judgment. God will not be mocked! I strongly encourage you to request a free copy of my book Malachi’s Message for a very thorough scriptural study of God’s perspective on what happened to His Church.If there is a "synagogue of Satan", it is surely being run by Flurry, Pack, Malm, Thiel, Weston, Weinland, Kubik and many other COG leaders today. Never has the church seen so many despicable men in its midst than it has today in 2020.
Today in 2020, the Church of God has at least five Elijah's in its midst. Every single one is a self-appointed fool who was NOT set apart by God to do any kind of work. We have Flurry, Malm, Pack, Thiel, and Weinland, all claiming they are Elijah. All five of them are certified lairs and abusers of the brethren. God certainly had no part in their appointment to their apostate ministries and certainly is not blessing their ministries, despite how much they lie that "it" is.
Just what is the single greatest truth that the church has today in its midst?
And—most importantly—God has continued to bless us, as He did Mr. Armstrong, with new revelation. The living God did not stop speaking to His people when Mr. Armstrong died. He has continued to give us “present truth” (2 Peter 1:12) that builds upon the foundation of the truth He restored through Mr. Armstrong. The pcg produces over 100 books and booklets, the large majority of which contain new biblical understanding from the great God.
That is the single greatest proof that the God who inspired Mr. Armstrong is behind our work.Is god speaking to Flurry? Is god speaking to Thiel? Is god speaking to Weinland? Is god speaking to Pack? Is god speaking to Weston? Is god speaking to Kubik? Is god speaking to Malm? They all claim "it" is. What "beautiful truth" have you ever seen these men utter?
If you are a follower of Christ, then that is the only beautiful truth you will ever need. None of the buffoonery of today's pack of Armstrongite leaders will ever be beautiful.
HWA-- The "GORDON GECKO" of the religious world.
ReplyDeleteIt seems so obvious that Gerald Flurry has drawn inspiration from reading some of nck's contributions here on Banned,
ReplyDeleteMany of HWA's "truths" had a very serious downside which impacted members' lives, as they furiously fought to control their real feelings, assuming Satan was causing them to have a bad attitude leading to these automatic negative reactions.
But, then again, many good Muslim women around the world love the fact that their clitoris has been removed as part of the religious mutilation known as female circumcision. As if we need deeper examples than those found in our Armstrong experiences, this is a perfect illustration of how the human mind can be made to react to spiritual exploitation.
BB
If you are a follower of Christ, then that is the only beautiful truth you will ever need. None of the buffoonery of today's pack of Armstrongite leaders will ever be beautiful.
ReplyDeleteI agree whole heartily with this statement, but there is an element of truth in HWA influence mentioned in the statement made by Gerald Flurry to support his "open letter" to the Churches of God. in "those good old days" did bring people into a relationship with God that was solid and firm if they excepted the Christian faith. It is unrealistic the say that none of the people in those " old days" were not converted Godly people. I was there and worked with people who were contributed to the rapid growth years. If those at HG were unconverted people serving their own needs God was using them to bring people to Him through Jesus Christ. I believe God is IN charge and capable of guiding His people follow Him where ever they are. I believe we need to be careful when assuming that all people who associated with Armstrongism are not connected with God. ASB
How can the son of an evangelist who was mistreated by fellow Imperial students and shunned by his own father be "beautiful truth" when he took a gun and shot himself in the head in his front yard?
ReplyDeleteYou've lost me with this reference. Who did this?
Dibar Apartian’s son shot himself in the face
ReplyDelete
ReplyDelete“Herbert W. Armstrong was part of something great. That Church was a work of miracles. Do you remember that glorious history? Too many of God’s people don’t. God challenges us to always keep the big picture.”--GRF
I accept that challenge.
Ah, yes, the “big picture.” The part that Gerald Flurry wants PCG members to forget all about.
HWA had taught that the “Great Commission” was to preach the gospel (meaning “good news”) of the coming kingdom of God to the whole world for a witness to all nations before the end of the age would come.
After HWA died in 1986, Satan quickly sent his drunken runt Gerald Flurry to do away with the “Great Commission” and replace it with what he called a “new commission” for a new church era of “warning the Laodiceans.” In actual practice this meant refusing to have anything whatsoever to do with any other former members of the WCG, including family members. This was Gerald Flurry's “No Contact” policy. Replacing the good news of the kingdom of God with the bad news of wrecking church families is one of the nastier perversions of the true gospel that the world has ever seen.
Too many years of Satan's false prophet Gerald Flurry could fill just about anyone “with a deep longing for the 'good old days' of Armstrongism,” the time before Satan's false prophets came to lie, steal, destroy, and kill in HWA's name and in God's name.
To try and answer the question of is HWA's teaching "beautiful truth" correctly looking at it as a whole is impossible.
ReplyDeleteThe answer can be only attained by framing the entity of the WCG in parallels. At the forefront of Herbert Armstrong's message which was given to the public contained a very accurate description of what the conversion process is all about. I also thought at the time that his "Why were You Born" series was masterful in presentation and content. There is no denying that many people were brought into a knowledge of, belief of and conversion process before God.
This is but one parallel of the many comprising the WCG. The view of church life in the 1980's wasn't all that bad in the region where I attended. The economy wasn't bad so tithing was affordable. Church life was busy with weekly bible study, Spokesman/Graduate Club, YOU sports practices, adult sport practices, weekend sporting games, potluck's, various fundraisers and newsstand stocking. So the view of the church looking through the parallel of 1980-1993 was not bad from my perspective.
Of course other decade parallels will not garner the same answer from those that lived it and experienced it.
Put the Ambassador foundation, the college, the Pasadena headquarters, HWA's travels to world leaders and even nck's unique perspectives into there own parallels and sub parallels and some may find beautiful truth and others will find tragedy.
So Gerald Flurry opining about and encouraging others to think back upon the beautiful truth is a moot request. One just needs to read the "worlds best seller" to find all the beautiful truth they will need.
So were Herbert W. Armstrong's teachings beautiful truth? Yes and no!
It should read 'Under Mr Armstrong, the church of God practised the government is everything complex.' A complex is a core irrational belief fed by a multitude of mental distortions. This effectively negated the parable of the talents, though lip service was paid to it. I recently re-read Herbs article on angels where he acknowledges that they require freedom in order to build character. But acknowledging a truth to dispel complaints, and then ignoring it is a deceitful abusive cult ploy. Dave Pack has often used it in his writings.
ReplyDeleteMissing in those who talk up Herb is what could have been. If he had truly followed the bible rather than Protestant churchianity, the Plain Truth magazine circulation might have been 80 million rather than 8 million. We'll never know. But the fact that the church crumbled on Herbs death means that it was built on a foundation of sand.
But to Herbs former ministers and boot lickers, it was heaven on earth, and they will keep having wet dreams about it's re-emergence. They even fantasize that Christ's second coming will bring it back. Dream on.
I believe the comments regarding the damage HWA was guilty of is; should include knowledge regarding the teachings of Christian organizations and their requirements for membership. In every community there a big churches and small churches calling people to Jesus Christ. The majority of the members in these churches are dedicated to live lives that reflect the life of Jesus Christ. They call people to repentance and to go through the process of conversion to become members.. My philosophy is when telling a person their church is wrong we should at least include telling them what church we are attending or admit that you longer believe the Christian faith. ASB
ReplyDeleteToday in 2020, the Church of God has at least five Elijah's in its midst.
ReplyDeleteElijahs? Why can't these losers attempt something original? For instance, who are the end-time Tychicus and Trophimus? The end-time Sopater? Where is "Song of Solomon: Unlocked at Last!"? (that one might have helped GTA immensely). These guys need to figure out that if they want a big following, they need to make their "brand" more appealing than the other me-too ACOG prophetic trainwrecks.
I'm glad I walked out and kept on going way back there in the mid-seventies. I'm so far removed from all that madness now that it's incomprehensible how I ever could have been so stupid. If you want to know more, follow me under Allen C. Dexter on Facebook. I don't comment too much here, but I'm very outspoken there.
ReplyDelete4.22 PM
ReplyDeleteThere certainly are dedicated members in every church, but the issue is the leadership. People do not join cults. Rather people join groups that turn out to be cults. Just by watching the televangelists, it's obvious that they are Pharisaic, and are using the same non biblical playbook. They lue people in with their promises, put a noose around their neck, then tighten it with the passage of time. The result is members being chained to a church. Dave Pack being an obvious example.
2.39 PM
ReplyDeleteI've been reading Flurry's writings since the late 1990s, so it's definitely not true that Flurry changed HWAs 'Great commission' with a 'new commission.' When Flurry established his church, he stated up front, many times, that the primary goal of his church would be to warn the Laodiceans for about 4 years. He gave a timing explanation for this figure. Then he would switch back to the Great commission. And he did follow through. His Trumpet site is about warning the world of the coming tribulation.
There's plenty wrong with his church, so there's no need to keep bringing up this falsehood.
What a load of pure bull$hit. Flurry is like some old communist who glorifies the good ole days of the Soviet Union while overlooking the millions of innocents killed during the purges. A lot of the ministers look back at the Worldwide days wishing that they were still here because they were the center of attention and the " Superstars". They conveniently overlook the damaged lives left in their wake.
Delete
ReplyDeleteAnonymous on January 4, 2020 at 8:48 PM said...“2.39 PM I've been reading Flurry's writings since the late 1990s, so it's definitely not true that Flurry changed HWAs 'Great commission' with a 'new commission.' When Flurry established his church, he stated up front, many times, that the primary goal of his church would be to warn the Laodiceans for about 4 years. He gave a timing explanation for this figure. Then he would switch back to the Great commission. And he did follow through. His Trumpet site is about warning the world of the coming tribulation. There's plenty wrong with his church, so there's no need to keep bringing up this falsehood.
Your great confusion shows that there still is plenty of need to keep bringing up this matter.
Gerald Flurry had people thinking that the PCG was going to do a “short work.” The PCG people originally thought that the end was going to come about twenty years ago. End times. End of the end times. Last hour. Gerald was afraid to give a sermon about the last minute for fear that the end would come right away if he did.
The gospel (meaning “good news”) is for the whole world and is about the coming kingdom of God.
The gospel is NOT the bad news about the coming tribulation, which is for the US and Britain. That is something called the Ezekiel warning message.
The quotes below are from the edition of Malachi's Message currently online at the PCG's website (bolding added). Earlier editions were even clearer about the PCG being given a “new commission” for a “new church era.”
Chapter 9: Malachi’s Message
“It isn’t that God doesn’t want the gospel and a warning message preached today. The world needs to be warned now more than ever before! But God knew the Laodicean Church would not do the job. The prophecies tell us that. They offer “polluted bread” and the Church is becoming divided. So the gospel commission to the world was finished when Mr. Armstrong died.”
...
Church Unity is Coming
“Laodicean leaders in the wcg don’t really understand why the pcg is so successful. They refuse to see that God is behind this Work! They have closed their eyes (Matthew 13:15). The pcg has been commissioned by God to warn the Laodiceans about their sins. The whole book of Malachi is about this commission. Malachi’s Message was revealed by God. Every human being on this Earth must eventually come to see that!”
If we Google the term "nostalgia," we read "a sentimental longing or wistful affection for the past." In short, by its very nature, this is a very emotional and subjective exercise - frequently not grounded in facts and truth. However, what Flurry and his Philadelphians have engaged in looks more like revisionism than it does real nostalgia.
ReplyDeleteTheir cognitive dissonance is underscored by the title of his son's book, Raising the RUINS: the Fight to REVIVE the Legacy of Herbert W Armstrong. The title acknowledges that the movement was in ruins - how did that happen? And something has to be knocked out or near death to be revived - how did it get in that condition?
I like the comparison to the "good ole days" of the Soviet Union. It's kinda like white Americans looking back at the 1950's as a golden age - there are a lot of folks of color and limited means who just don't remember it that way!
Folks like Gerald Flurry and David Pack may have been living the good life back in the day, but there are a lot of us who weren't. Yeah, I'm just not seeing the good ole days when I look back at the history of the Worldwide Church of God. Maybe Flurry and his supporters could lend us a pair of their rose-colored glasses!
-Lonnie Hendrix
Anon, January 4, 2020 at 8:48 PM, wrote that Flurry established his church with a primary goal to warn the Laodiceans, and that Gerald's "...Trumpet site is about warning the world of the coming tribulation..."
ReplyDeleteDoes this present evil world, or any so-called Laodiceans, sense that coming tribulation that Gerald has in mind?
Jesus Christ said: "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33
In fact, it appears that humanity has been in tribulation, great tribulation, since the day Satan was allowed to infest/infect the minds of both Adam and Eve. It is as though that tribulation is a worldwide curse, as was mentioned in Zechariah.
Zech 4:1 Then I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a flying roll.
:2 And he said unto me, What seest thou? And I answered, I see a flying roll; the length thereof [is] twenty cubits, and the breadth thereof ten cubits.
:3 Then said he unto me, This [is] the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off [as] on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off [as] on that side according to it.
Someday, in the future (after the 2nd resurrection; there is no 3rd), there will be "no more curse (Rev 21:3)."
In the meantime, great tribulation continues as was mentioned in regards to the "innumerable multitude:"
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Even after a 1,000 years of Satan's pit-stop and the MMM (Mickey Mouse Millennium), the world will again endure under Satan and great tribulation, yes, worldwide!
Tribulation has its place, so it seems:
Acts 14:22 "Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."
Incidentally, since Gerald expects Christ's coming to be soon, where on earth will Christ be reigning AFTER Satan comes out of that bottomless pit, and messes up Jerusalem and the world again? Will Christ be impotent regarding Jerusalem? It appears that Christ, if He were to come soon and reign on earth, will not be very successful, b/c deception of the entire world will not have been prevented (Revelation 20:7-8).
Time will tell...
John
A follower of David Koresh, the now deceased Millerite Minister, stated: “David came to give us a message and a hope. We hope to see him again. Our regret is only that we didn’t serve God better.” This survivor of Waco is referring to the fact that they believe he will come back from the dead to continue his leadership role.
ReplyDeleteMost of us cannot understand the depths of that kind of belief in a flawed human being, even though we may have "been there, done that." One theme I have noticed in these posts so far is the idea that Armstrongism wasn't all bad - a dubious conclusion.
I believe that part of the reason why Armstrongist leaders are given much credence by their followers is explained in a book I am reading authored by Malcolm Gladwell entitled "Talking to Strangers." Gladwell explores two startling conclusions from sociological data:
1) People are very poor at detecting when a liar is lying to them. The strong default is to believe that one is being told the truth.
2) If people actually meet with the liar in person, they are even less likely to detect that the liar is lying. This contradicts the adage that "If I can look into his eyes, I can tell if he is lying." If one looks into his eyes, they are much, much less able to tell if the liar is lying. Again, the default to truth takes over. This principle also applies to forensic specialists who in one study detected lying only 14% of the time.
The dynamic behind this is that mutual trust is required for us to get anything done in social settings. Hence, people want to naturally believe that others are telling the truth. I don't think this is the only dynamic at work inside strange religions but it explains much.
People do not join cults.
ReplyDeleteSo says Anonymous 7:53 PM, but that's not entirely true. One of my childhood friends told me, several years ago, that he aspired to be a minister in Rod Meredith's church, because he knew he would be one of the smartest and hardest-working ministers and would rise to the top. He knew that the WCG and its splinters were fake at best and cult at worst, but he believed that the best way for him to provide for his Church of God family would be to treat church membership just like a career in the world, and to do whatever he could to advance.
I saw him not too long ago, and he tried his best to avoid me, as he knows that I know his secret. I imagine that when he is alone with his fellow ministers he trash-talks me so that if I ever were to name him publicly I would already be discredited.
Pro Armstrongites continue to post that world events are accelerating towards HWA's interpretation of end time events, but the reality is that these events are developing in a decidedly different manner. The outright burning of Australia presents perhaps the most compelling evidence of global climate change to date. Legitimate scientists in the field of climatology consider the actions of the next decade to be critical in avoiding the the ultimate calamities which will kick in if we do reach the point of no return. Although Armstrongites are prevented by their beliefs from participating in elections, the reality is that most are philosophically aligned with the climate change denier party.
ReplyDeleteThe number one threat to world peace continues to be the idealogical conflict in the Middle East, as indeed it has been since the six day war of HWA's day. Our president has seen to the escalation of tensions first through his withdrawal from the Iran nuclear deal, and now by the assassination of Iran's top general. Even the Iraquis are calling for US withdrawal from their country presently, an event which would virtuallly ensure a resurgence of and possible victory by ISIS, or a prolonged battle to control the fallout.
None of these events are indicative of a rebirth of Catholic domination of Europe, or a resurgence of Germany. ACOG members continue to derive a sense of safety from the possibility of war in the Middle East, because of HWA's prophetic delusions of an end time dominated by misidentified Assyrians. Also, the Armstrong movement has remained in a state of ruination. Nobody has actually raised the ruins, although various pretenders to the throne have claimed to be doing precisely that. Each expect a miracle to propel their own invisible little group into international prominence. Meanwhile, as if to dramatize the impotence of that movement, a completely unrelated autistic teenager takes the international stage and testifies before the world leaders whose attention Armstrongite leaders covet.
There was no baby in the tepid Armstrong bathwater! It was nothing more than a brief and lucrative advertising campaign. One can see and understand why those who sacrificed and invested their lives into financing it would have a need for it to draw to their anticipated conclusion, but it's not going to happen. It is true that there are some problems which will continue to become worse. But, it is also true that some things will continue to get better. There will always be problems to which contrarians can point. Humans are by nature problem solvers, and are very resourceful and resilient in doing exactly that.
BB
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteWhat a load of pure bull$hit. Flurry is like some old communist who glorifies the good ole days of the Soviet Union while overlooking the millions of innocents killed during the purges. A lot of the ministers look back at the Worldwide days wishing that they were still here because they were the center of attention and the " Superstars". They conveniently overlook the damaged lives left in their wake.
January 5, 2020 at 6:48 AM
My comment: I look at the comments like this and recognize that there is some truth in it. The problem with this is that it overlooks the fact that many if not most of the members in local communities were spiritual brothers and sisters. I know this was true in the congregations I attended. Many were young people with children. Our religious needs included the desire to know how God wanted His people to live in harmony with each other. As the years progressed things gradually changed and some members did attempt to have a role that inflated their ego. I personally rejected that concept but there was no way to address it without causing problems. I could point out some of the situations, but that is history. I will say my needs were filled in a successful family business. My comments here may be useless, but think it would wonderful if we could get people work together in the spiritual unity that God desires through Jesus Christ. ASB
Brotherhood??? Sisterhood??? Surely you jest! You couldn't really get close to anyone, because ultimately, they would rat on you over relatively minor infractions of the legalism. You had to especially dodge the ministers, which is why in his second chance at having a life, Dennis had such a difficult time communicating the fact that he honestly wanted to interact with us one on one as fellow travelers who had been on a bad journey. Nobody trusted him at first, and some still do not. And then there are the second generation individuals who were turned into sociopaths by the childrearing principles, because they were deprived of the normal and natural human feelings which make relationships possible in the first place. It is certainly better to be an empath by natural feeling than to need to effect empathy by employing logic, willpower, and theatrics as so many of us have had to learn to do in order to reconstruct empathy. We were also taught to turn off emotions towards the outsider friends, family members, coworkers, and neighbors whom we were taught would be tortured and killed by the Germans. Let me tell you something. You can't be selective in turning off and on these emotions. Once you take a cruel and harsh attitude towards one group of people, that is there with regard to all people! All that is required is a trigger, such as disfellowshipment, after which your friend and brother, for all practical intents, no longer exists. He could be starving, and you would't even know, let alone lift a finger to help.
ReplyDeleteThese things have been regularly reported to us by those who were forced by conscience to leave Flurry's church. And, long before there were splinters, the same negative evaluations were made of HWA's church. They are a natural function of the corporate CULTure of Armstrongism! If you were an exception to this, God bless you. But, that was not the norm. It was purely accidental, most likely based on your prior religious training before you were ensnared by Armstrongism.
BB
BB said: If you were an exception to this, God bless you. But, that was not the norm. It was purely accidental, most likely based on your prior religious training before you were ensnared by Armstrongism.
ReplyDeleteBB You do not know me so do not tell me I was an exception. I spent 42 years in WWCOG inl 4 local congregation as the grew. We started out with six families in my local area and as the church congregations drew closer to my home town. we had 400 people attending each sabbath. many of these members were home town people who were like family. If the ministers that we had were doing what Flurry's group does they would have had a short ministry. You may not believe that but our congregation was strong enough to force a move. We had one minister who was sent in during all those changes who complain to me about the members not accepting the changes. I told him he was between the rock and a hard place. He would dammed whether he did or didn't. He wasn't there long. I could mention other situations, but those are history. The changes that were made divided the congregation and I did not want people following me so I withdrew my membership from WWCOG and retired being active in any Church congregation. My wife and I still live as close to Godly lives as a human being can. ASB
1.25 AM
ReplyDeleteHWA taught hat the gospel is the coming kingdom of God He was mistaken. It's part of his government is everything mantra. The declaration of independence states that the role of government is to 'secure peoples right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.' Every time God criticises governments in the old testament, He doesn't contradict or add to this role. That is, government was made for man rather than Herbs man made for government.
The gospel is primarily the gospel of salvation. Christ said to His generation 'repent for the kingdom is at hand.' If the gospel is a 2000 year off government, Christ's words make no sense. That people can qualify for immortality is the good news. It's common sense. Not some rights enforcing government.
If you re read your own quote from Malachis Message, it doesn't say that the it's message is to primarily warn the Laodicean, but just to warn them. The Trumpet site has always been the Ezekiel message of the coming tribulation. To their credit and honor, they are the only splinter that has this as their main message to the world. And a strong message at that. The rest are all asleep.
ASB
ReplyDeleteI attended services for 8 years, and it was exactly as BB describes. Your description is way off, otherwise this site wouldn't exist. Were you an elder?
There are two additional factors which were also in play during the old school WCG days. The ministry did not practice a time honored Christian ethic, that of minister-member confidentiality, which is integral to spiritual and physical growth. Members' "problems" were leaked about the congregations. That, in addition to the snitching problem caused members to be secretive, not that the ministers' counsel was all that valuable in the first place.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, there was an elite class whose members were handled with kid gloves. This often had much to do with socio-economic status, their usefulness in contributing to the tithe and offering pie, and ability to participate in problem solving, like temporarily housing brethren in need, or utilizing a spacious home for baptisms and other church activities. In many cases, the elite did not even realize that they were treated differently. The children of elders often received special treatment, even if they did not want their identity to be tied to their parents and just wanted to function based on their own merits.
When we have had comments from highly placed members of the active clergy such as Ian Boyne, who honestly and freely acknowledged these types of systemic institutional problems, I don't understand how some long term members can continue to insist that WCG was some sort of spiritual camelot. Obviously, Gerald Flurry has a vested interest in promoting this mythology, but why would someone try to promote it here on a site where we all know differently based on our own experiences? There was the dreaded "whitewash" award in the old Spokesmens' Club. I think we should probably be giving some of those out here!
BB
Brian Davis needs to be investigated. His second wife died of a UTI that she wasn’t allowed to have treated. His daughters had to escape him when they were younger and move in with their grandparents.
ReplyDeleteFlurry seems to only attract tyrannical homosexual ministers to terrorize his flock.
Why are so many of the PCG ministers wives dying? It makes me wonder how they’re all dying off!
Annoymos said: ASB I attended services for 8 years, and it was exactly as BB describes. Your description is way off, otherwise this site wouldn't exist. Were you an elder?
ReplyDeleteMy comment: I do not know where you attended services or the years you were attending but the years I attended and congregations I fellowshiped with were as I discribed up until shortly before HWA died. Yes I was an elder. I was a deacon for 3 or 4 years and an elder 20 years. When things started to unfold in the 1990's the congregations in our area began to suffer do to the ministers attempting to make the changes made at HQ. Members were leaving the FOT and Holy Days were being changed. I was contiually dealing with members being unhappy. My advice was for them follow their personal beliefs. Some went to United Church of God after it was formed. others went some other churches in the area. some quite going anywhere. After things settled down a little a pastor was sent in that wanted to change to Sunday worship. He gave a sermon support Sunday worship. I advised him not to make it, but he did not take my advice. The following week the last few Sabbath worshippers left and went United. We had been worshipping and using a building we had leased for a number of years. This is when I resigned as a member of WWCOG. Today the few members who were left went to Sunday worship. They moved to another building. From what I hear they have nothing but problems. I could define the problems but it is none of my business. My wife and I are associated with a senior citizens group that has members from many Christian churches in our community. I hope this will explain why I do not like to condemn the whole of Armstrongism. ASB Please excuse any errors in the comment.
Well, Flurry also wrote about himself having "beautiful feet". He's got a knack for unfortunately hack hyperbole.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDelete“Were the teachings of Herbert Armstrong 'beautiful truth' as Gerald Flurry claims?”
Anything can look like beautiful truth when compared to the ugly lies that Gerald Flurry teaches.
One could certainly envision an elder as being part of the privileged class within Armstrongism, shielded from many of the realities as they affected the majority of the church members. Being part of the authority structure provided perhaps the best immunities against it.
ReplyDeleteBB
As JFK once stated: “The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived and dishonest—but the myth—persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.”
ReplyDeleteI believe this perfectly applies to all those Armstrongists who look back with nostalgia on the myth of HWA/WCG.
BB your bitterness about the churches that were formed by HWA.s teaching distorts the whole of Christian faith. You implied that my being an elder made me a privileged and shielded from reality. What you don't know is I was involved in correcting and solving inappropriate activities. It was rumored that one pastor wanted to put me out do to suspicious activities he was involved in. That pastor was remove when those activities was validated. I will not go into details on any of the things, but will say spent time in many ministerial meetings pointing out changes that needed to be corrected. You need to realize that worked with a number pastors. Some good some not so good. One situation came up that I took to the pastor that he did not want to deal with. It was about members who was sexually involved outside of marriage. He told me to take care of it. I spent time with both parties. Shortly after my counseling I was called to perform their marriage. They had a happy marriage the rest of their life. Let me make comment that is more current. I have a family related person who has a small group that lives by the COG standards. This small group is happy and contented. They meet to gather every Sabbath in the pastors home. I am aware of many family related individuals who are following the Christian faith that would be totally against many of the posts and comments here. ASB
ReplyDeleteI'm not bitter about them, ASB. I just believe that they were of Satan, brought horrible, bad fruits into peoples' lives, and that it's a darn good thing that the entire movement has been spewed from the mouth of God. I'm also sure that some of the members sincerely believed that they were Christian.
ReplyDeleteI'm very glad that we have a wide variety of people and ideas here. This helps us to realize what kind of world we all live in, and prevents us from becoming cloistered and sheltered. Personally, there are posts and comments here that I too find objectionable, but I recogniize that in a free society everybody has a right to their own opinions, and the freedom to express them. Plus, there are plenty of nuggets to offset the occasional stink bomb.
Please remember that when we find a venue to be offensive, we always have the right to leave it. It's still a free country last time I checked.
BB
BB, January 7, 2020 at 4:54 PM, wrote:
ReplyDelete******
"...I'm not bitter about them, ASB. I just believe that they were of Satan, brought horrible, bad fruits into peoples' lives, and that it's a darn good thing that the entire movement has been spewed from the mouth of God. I'm also sure that some of the members sincerely believed that they were Christian..."
******
Yes, BB, and those hirelings you have in mind may well have been of Satan (like a wolf among sheep): appearing as angels of light, but their light was really darkness.
Jesus spoke about hirelings relative to God's Church:
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
All hirelings are not evil, but sometimes some of them do evil things, especially if it is obvious the wolf's fruits are evident.
God's Church apparently will be a mixture of sealed Firstfruits, and non-sealed individuals, and the same is true of the ministry. By their fruits we know them.
A spewing of individuals seems to have occurred among those associated with God's Church, which would include so-called Laodiceans, whether they be ministers and/or members.
Who's who? Time will tell...
John