A comment from the "Narcissists in the Church of God Ruin Everything posting
"It is an undeniable fact the 'fruit' of the Protestant Reformation is the divided 'churchianity' of our day. We must say at the outset that this is bad fruit. Paul tells us that the Spirit of God produces unity-not division." -p.104 The Plain Truth About The Protestant Reformation, Rod Meredith
The quote about the "undeniable fact" that the Protestant Reformation resulted in divided "churchianity" and the observation that God's spirit leads to unity and not division is priceless. All I can say is wow! The lack of self-awareness and utter denial of the leadership within many of these groups is truly amazing. I simply cannot think of any other explanation as to why this stuff would be published since it is so descriptive of the current state of the splintered cogs that has just gotten progressively worse over the last twenty-five years, with little effort or even desire from the leadership of our various factions, or denominations, which is what we are, to try to remedy the situation. What then, should this tell us about any evidence of the Holy Spirit working through the governmental structures and leadership of these groups when we are a reflection of the very thing we criticize about those we consider Protestants? What conclusion is any thinking person supposed to come to? Or are we simply to read the words but not make too many connections with the reality of the Corporate COG itself, and therefore not learn the lesson that God seems to be placing in front of our own noses. We point to the lack of clothing someone else is wearing, when we ourselves are poor, blind, miserable, and naked.
If the Roman Catholic "system" is truly to blame for the ills of Christianity, then why do so many of our corporate church leaders mimic and defend their governmental system? Does the fact that we call the man in charge a president, presiding evangelist, or pastor general instead of a pope, somehow make it okay? We claim Jesus as our head, but so do the Catholics. They claim Jesus as their "invisible head" while the pope occupies the position of "visible head". Are we so very different? Ask your average cog member or minister where their "headquarters" is. Most will tell you it's in Charlotte, Cincinnati, etc. It won't even occur to them to tell you that it resides in heaven, where the true head of the body currently sits. We pay lip service to Jesus as our king, while we seek out human kings, just as Ancient Israel did.
Want more proof that the governmental system many of us grew up in and have largely continued is in many cases effectually the same as theirs? Here is a quote from a letter HWA wrote to the ministry in a publication called the Bulletin in the 1970s..."Meanwhile, Christ, who KNOWS better than we that He is dealing with fallible humans --but who are HONEST with His Word, has BOUND in heaven what His Church, even in unrealized error, has bound in earth." (Dec.3, 1974) In other words, what is being said here, is that even if the "church", meaning the corporate structure, or guy in charge is in "error" Jesus binds it anyway. How is this in practice any different than what the Catholics teach about humans being given the authority to bind and loose? And what happens then if we as individual Christians within the body come to see that something is in error? Are we to just wait until Jesus somehow "unbinds" it, and hope the guy in charge or "church" picks up on it? Or do we have a responsibility to work out our own salvation with trembling and fear? Will we be held accountable if we continue to practice or believe something that is untrue, because it has been "bound" by the human powers within the corporation we attend? This is just one of the pitfalls of a strict pyramidal hierarchy, that does not allow for the practice of faith and conscience of the individual Christian.
Concerned Sister
Astute observations and ...WOW, what a quote! I believe LCG HQ still believes this.
ReplyDeleteVery astute observations...and WOW, what a quote! I think many at LCG HQ still believe this.
ReplyDeleteStoned stephen is concerned sister's husband. Wow!
DeleteLike the Pharisees of old, there is no awareness of the blatant hypocrisy which underscores almost everything these leaders do. You are correct to point out that they do the very same things that they criticize in Protestants and Catholics. I have often pointed out to my friends and family who are still a part of one of the many splinters that the Radio/Worldwide Church of God reenacted the entire history of Christianity in the space of about sixty years.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, much of this stems from the focus on doctrine. Most Armstrong Church of God leaders have never understood the concept of unity. In the early Church, there was NO such emphasis on doctrine. Indeed, many of the things that Herbert considered to be the core teachings of the Church (e.g. anti-trinity, British Israelism, Biblical literalism, etc.) would have evoked blank stares from those people. In other words, they wouldn't have known what the hell he was even talking about!
According to Scripture, unity is not about everyone blindly accepting the teachings of church leaders. Unity is about accepting that your brothers and sisters have started their faith journey at different places, and that not everyone will have the same understanding of each and every issue. True unity involves patience, kindness, forgiveness, mercy and love above all. God doesn't expect or want mindless robots who simply fork over their resources to "His" ministers. If Scripture is to be believed, God values sincerity, and those who are willing to follow the dictates of their own conscience and respect the same in their brothers and sisters.
Another thing about the ACOGs hierarchical command and control structure, is that it significantly denies members moral choice. To morality grow, one needs to have a choice in the truest sense, the 'choose life or choose death' thingy. Otherwise a person is just tagging along. But this is pearls before swine to the church leaders. They don't genuinely care about members growth. All that matters is appearances, with everyone pretending to believe the same thing.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is that all religions and the divisions that arise from them are human constructs. Power and control is the goal. Narcissism is at the root of them all. No supernatural anything is connected with it.
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ReplyDelete“The quote about the 'undeniable fact' that the Protestant Reformation resulted in divided 'churchianity' and the observation that God's spirit leads to unity and not division is priceless.”
Some so-called COGs, like Flurry's PCG and Pack's RCG, have Satan and his evil spirits behind them. That is why they are causing such extreme division.
Our inability to understand exactly what you said Miller is a fundamental flaw. We have misapplied perhaps intentionally the scriptures that might even help our unity. I know it is basic, but even our misapplication of Amos 3:3 hampered unity when in fact it might have shown how to be unified. We applied "can two walk together unless they are agreed" to mean unity comes in thinking the same and being in agreement about doctrine, but even as a young teen I thought, "well, I've disagreed with people and walked together with them."
ReplyDeleteOf course that is more accurate to what the scripture is about: "you can't walk together with someone unless you agree to walk with them". Without the desire to walk with someone you will naturally drift apart as direction and pace varies. You must intentionally choose to walk together or you will not. If the COGs chose to walk together with someone they didn't agree with entirely then there would be unity of Spirit as followers of Christ that may have different gaits or hitches in their step but are unified in Christ. But, then again, if they could do that they wouldn't be the COGs.
Many of your questions Sister get answered when you understand your calling. What most do because it is the most logical thing to do is cling unto the entity associated with the calling. The mind easily accepts that God working through an organization to call individuals in a powerful way is continuing and will continue working through that organization.
ReplyDeleteJoe Tkach Sr. While on his way to turn a belief structure upside down, commented after proclaiming that we are not all there is that comprise the true Church of God said; "well does that mean that we can just go a mile down the road to our nearest church ~ no you can't, because this is WHERE God called you and you have to stay where God calls you".
So HWA, JTSr.,All the splinters and the Catholic church believe that a religious government structure is your guide to salvation. So truth gets lost or mangled and buried in these organizations and an individual who is called unto truth can have that taken away in an instant or slowly over a long period of time depending on just how maniacal the leadership is.
Jesus Christ during his trial replied to Pilate's question of whether he was a king or not said: "to this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth hearth my voice".
That is the undeniable fact of the calling from God that men leading church organizations want to take from individuals replacing it with their own ideas or methods and doing it by and with fear or force.
The bible speaks of two men to come in future in the last days. One will be Elijah who will restore all things and the other one most likely will cause the great falling way to happen. What is going to save the individual christian during this time, a dynamic leader with a great following or the truth? Those that can see there calling will know and those that follow ideas will do so at great peril.
There is never perfect "unity" in any human interactions. Life is a constant series of negotiations, and give and takes. They are made with "self interest" in mind, and hopefully those being "enlightened self interest" whenever possible.
ReplyDeleteEven in the best of marriages there is never complete "unity". In order for there to be "unity" in anything , everyone would have to be a clone, and have the exact same reactions and decisions as everyone else. They would have to be robots!
The Bible speaks about diverse gifts, talents, and levels of understanding. The unity of the Spirit is created through our union in Christ Jesus, not in outward appearance or how well we are in submission to the authority of a supposed and (oftentimes self appointed ) human leader.
1:51
ReplyDeleteTonto should travel to Asia more and see that there is more than "western competitive individualism", although western Christian culture has poise Ed them too.
Nck
Nck, Tonto would most likely learn a lot from traveling in Asia. The problem, though, comes in when one returns from Asia. I understand that leaving Asia causes one to become (wait for it) DISORIENTED!
ReplyDelete😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 (note, fashionably Biblical # of laughing emojis)
BB
Nck
ReplyDeleteLack of individualism is certainly an Asian trait. Which is why Christianity with it's obey God rather than man, has done poorly there. I watched a movie where an American that had married an Asian woman kept asking 'but what do you like?' She kept replying 'I like whatever you like.'
That sounds more like Coming to America.
DeletePerhaps Tonto likes to marry in a Moonie ceremony with 10.000 brides.
ReplyDeleteI like the follow up comments BTW, as Corona is closing in rapidly at my temporary dwelling place.
Nck
NCK and all:
ReplyDeleteIndeed, far east culture is very different from Western Judeo/Christian heritage. The primacy of the individual prevails from the West, and perhaps can come from the idea that we are made "in the image of God".
Perhaps, cultures like Japan, China and others can be viewed as more "team oriented". There are advantages to both, yet the emergence of break out ideas, from the likes of Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates and many others , trace to a freer thinking, and looser society based on freedom, and individual rights.
The Asiatic cultures then simply benchmark off of our free mind mapping, and then apply their "subjugated team" efforts , to produce the products faster, cheaper and in mass. Our culture produces the thinking/software, and their culture the labor/hardware.
Quite good Tonto. www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/11/how-early-christian-church-gave-birth-today-s-weird-europeans
DeleteYour observation on Asians "just copying" has become old fashioned the last 5-10 years though.
Interesting you mention Bill Gates. Nadella states in Hit Refresh that he rescued Microsoft through Asian thinking after it had grown big and stale.
Nck
"It is an undeniable fact the 'fruit' of the WCG is the divided 'COGdom' of our day. We must say at the outset that this is bad fruit. Paul tells us that the Spirit of God produces unity-not division."
ReplyDeleteHWA's exegesis of Matthew 16:19 is odd and self-serving. In David Bentley Hart's translation the scripture is as follows. And I should add that Hart is formidable in his defense of the meaning of classical Greek language:
ReplyDelete"I shall give you the keys to the kingdom of the heavens, and whatever you bind on the earth will have been bound in the heavens, and whatever you unbind on earth will have been unbound in the heavens."
In other words, Jesus is telling Peter as the leader of the church that he is an earthly representative of the heavenly hegemony. Not that Peter has carte blanche to alter anything that God has done because Peter happens not to understand it.
Can anybody in good conscience really believe that the solution to dealing with the mistakes of a human church leader is to cancel the truth and establish in its place what the leader has erroneously decided - abrogating the will of God? This is more monstrous than Calvinism - if that can be imagined. Donald Trump believes he has found the same path to autocracy in Article 2 of the Constitution. In effect the principle makes HWA superior to God - by decree of God himself. Suddenly, HWA is running the universe as Autocrat in Chief. If HWA wants to "wish you into the corn field" he can do it nicely and without question. And it just sucks to be you.
This is frightening and I don't know how long this idea of HWA's unlimited power stood. I do recall hearing this dogma of power preached in the Field House in Big Sandy - by whom I do not recall. But later I also remember hearing its rescission preached in the Field House using a translation very much like David Bentley Hart's above.
Note: I use the phrase "in the Field House" because I heard many points of Armstrongist dogma proclaimed there that I have never seen written down anywhere. And I do not know what internal verification and validation processes might pertain to any of those proclamations.
NEO
ReplyDeleteMy understanding of binding or unbinding is that it's primarily about technical matters such as the holy day dates or temple procedures. The only other possible application is putting someone out of the church for an obvious great sin. The laws of the universe are fixed, both the physical and moral. Christ was tempted on this point when Satan asked Him to throw Himself down from the tall building. Christ Himself did not have the power to make or change any moral law.
Binding and unbinding is used as a fig-leaf pretext by power hungry church leaders to usurp Gods power. The same sin of Satan, and even good guy Moses.
Anonymous (8:55):
ReplyDeleteWhen I read the passage in Matthew I do not get the impression that it is just about technical matters. It is mentioned in the same breath with "Keys to the Kingdom." It is clearly very important. An example of the downside of confining HWA's unchallengable authority to technical matters is this: Can HWA make your salvation contingent on a technical matter such as the extent to which you un-leaven your house? If you do not meet his standards, can he in effect "wish you into the corn field?" That is a technical matter but to an authoritarian with a fixation on power and control, it can be elevated into a pivotal condition for your salvation.
I think this principle is rather a convenient mistranslation as David Bentley Hart's translation points out. HWA wanted power. He wanted people to be afraid of him. So he found a scripture that, mistranslated, permitted him to appropriate the powers of god to himself and he had no qualms about jumping right in. And this after so much pre-occupation in the WCG with Satan, Nimrod and Simon Magus.
On binding and loosing:
ReplyDeleteAnother example. An employee at AC/BS back in the early Seventies told me solemnly that he heard a sermon on binding and loosing back in his church area. He said the minister stated that "God backs up his ministers" with great forcefulness. The minister went on to say that if the WCG ministry says that Christ is going to return in, say, 1975, then Christ would return in 1975.
You can see where that went. Somehow Christ did not feel like he was bound to 1975 because some guy in a little off-brand Millerite church said he was. But you hear all kinds of things from the pulpit. I doubt that idea had the endorsement of Pasadena. But it does raise the question: Why doesn't the Neo-Millerite ministry in some WCG offshoot bind Christ to a date certain?
NEO,
ReplyDeleteAstute analysis of binding and loosing. When the subject is framed thus: "Can anybody in good conscience really believe that the solution to dealing with the mistakes of a human church leader is to cancel the truth and establish in its place what the leader has erroneously decided - abrogating the will of God?" Only one answer really makes sense, and it ain't Herbert's interpretation!
Binding and loosing
ReplyDeleteFrom the Hebraic perspective, binding and loosing meant decisions arising from application of the law. In a way it was setting a scope on how a command was to be obeyed where there was no stated precedent.
An example was Moses making such decisions on cases involving the law when his father-in-law told him he should delegate some of those responsibilities. An apostolic example is the meeting in Acts 15 where it was decided that Gentiles did not need to first 'become Jews' in order to become Christians.
ALL churches have been INFILTRATED by the enemies of mankind. This is a systematic process. It is a conspiracy FACT. Wake up and do your research dummies. It has been that way for 2000 years! Remember the parable of the tares? Pope Francis is practically a commie.
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ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 7:46 AM said..."It is an undeniable fact the 'fruit' of the WCG is the divided 'COGdom' of our day. We must say at the outset that this is bad fruit. Paul tells us that the Spirit of God produces unity-not division."
Not all of the COG splinter groups have the Holy Spirit. The division is caused by all the apostates, false prophets, rebels, etc. who have a different spirit.
I think Armstrong himself said that government was one of the toughest areas for him to understand. He obviously flipped flopped around with it himself, if one were to ever read his 1939 Good News article
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ReplyDeleteIt goes back further than 2000 years. An infiltrator in the guise of a snake, was in the garden of Eden. God allowed this as it was a microcosm of the way the world works. Which also means that many created angels became infiltrators and demons. So infiltrators go back to the creation of the universe ie, about 14 billion years ago.
NEO
ReplyDeleteActually, I've heard the 'God backs up his ministers' expression several times in my local area. It's the common ploy of implying a lie while having plausible deniability. The lie is then frequently repeated to crash members mental barriers.
'God backing up his ministers' implies that ministers have the power to lord it over members, and that God will back them up in this course of action. Since when does God jump into bed with sinful ministers? God only backs up ministers if they are performing their legitimate responsibilities. If they step outside their boundaries, God is against them, since they were being thieves.
NEO, I have heard this binding and loosing interpretation 4-ish years ago in LCG. Stuart Wachowicz gave a sermon where he used this scripture to say they were making the night to be much observed a commanded assembly because they said so, and that turned it into a command from God. Then he went on to say something along the lines of the brethren were crossing God if they didn’t show up.
ReplyDelete1.23 PM
ReplyDeleteAs many have commented, HWA had a mind change after his wife's death. The mask came off, and HWA turned totalitarian.
@ 9:08 PM, keep in mind that Wachowicz, as recently as a year ago, was writing newspaper editorials defending his other employer, the Confucius Institute, a Communist Chinese propaganda organization. Perhaps it is no accident that life in LCG is becoming more and more like life in Red China. Anyone who does a little research about the Confucius Institute should be horrified that LCG tolerates one of its top ministers being an employee and cheerleader for such an organization. What's next, LCG ministers working for the Vatican?
ReplyDelete10:55, HWA was a horrible totalitarian throughout the 1950's and '60s. Loma's death sent him galavanting around the world, eating unclean meats and getting drunk with world leaders. He was said to have left his own church! This lasted for a number of years until he instituted the "back on track" era, renewing the original totalitarianism.
ReplyDeleteBB
Dude, wouldn't you rather have the Stoners use Banned as their proverbial escape valve than going the Terry Ratzmann route?
ReplyDeleteJust to set the record straight, not that it matters or that it will cause anyone who wishes to remain in their own delusion to change, but Concerned Sister is not married to Stoned Stephen, and we do not even know each other personally. This is simply a theory someone has come up with and for whatever reason has promoted.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I found the above discussion on the subject of binding and loosing interesting and informative. Thanks for the comments, they were helpful.
Concerned Sister
Concerned Sister advertised her own blog in the comments, on the COGWA WFW post written by Stoned Stephen Society a few weeks ago.
ReplyDeleteConcerned Sister is Tonto/Connie/the Ocelot/QuesterUK
And CS is all over SSS blog comments in the same written style.