Here they are, in their most sacred time of year when Jesus is supposed to be at least a small part of their focus, but it is business as usual. Its Moses who is more important.
This Coming Sabbath — Home Office Webcast
Peter Eddington, Operation Manager for Media and Communications, will be giving the webcast sermon titled: “Who Was Moses?” How could an abandoned baby become one of the greatest leaders ever known? An immigrant family’s son rose to national power in a foreign land and became known as the greatest prophet of all time—other than Jesus. Why should this, and why does all this, affect your life? Mr. Eddington will lead us in looking at some powerful lessons from the life of Moses. What can we learn from his remarkable example?
It is remarkable that any church, even a COG where we might expect it to be so, would promote Moses over Jesus at Easter/Passover Absolutely remarkable. Their collective wisdom and common sense has left them with no one with the guts, evidently, to say something like "I'm noticing we are talking about the wrong person at this time of year".
ReplyDeleteGeorge W. Bush was getting off of Airforce One in Israel, when he walked passed Moses, who didn't seem to notice him.
ReplyDeleteHe turned to Moses and said: "I am George W. Bush, the President of the USA, the most powerful nation on earth. Why didn't you greet me?"
Moses replied: "The last time I spoke to a Bush, we hiked in the desert for 40 years!"
Moses as a kid.
ReplyDeleteBetter than a sermon centered on HWA...
ReplyDeleteI haven't heard the sermon, so I can't tell if he made the connections between Moses and Jesus, such as Luke 16:31 "He (Abraham) said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"
And particularly Deut 18:15 (Moses speaking) "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him." Was 'that Prophet' Jesus or Gerald Flurry?
DD
ReplyDeleteMany people in these churches have over the years 'said something like,' only to be beaten down and/or thrown out of the church. It seems that as a minister you were spared this, and are still in the dark.
ReplyDeleteDD said:
It is remarkable that any church, even a COG where we might expect it to be so, would promote Moses over Jesus at Easter/Passover Absolutely remarkable. Their collective wisdom and common sense has left them with no one with the guts, evidently, to say something like "I'm noticing we are talking about the wrong person at this time of year".
Jesus Christ isn't needed at this time of year, only Moses' or those that portray the character of Moses and believe they are indeed a type of the man himself.
Think about it, they have spent the last three weeks of detailing, enhancing and burdening sins upon their membership and they are certain that individual examination will be lacking, so they leave the cliffhanger of unworthiness on the tip of the members minds as they place the wafer in their mouths and place the cup to their lips.
Then the next night they are dragged out into the wilderness where a celebration takes place because apparently no one became weak or sick or died.
Starting the next morning and for the whole week they are led deeper into the barren landscape to be able to see only that obedience to hundreds of rules and regulations will keep them alive.
At the conclusion of the week, when they are all stuck between a gulf of water and high cliffs and the army of employers, priests, friends, fathers and mothers are almost upon them, the Moses'say unto them, cross over with us, for tomorrow morning on the other side will be a place of safety with donuts and bagels and pizza for lunch.
Who needs Jesus Christ when the Moses' of the COGs can perform all this every year.
Of course if you're selective with what you present here one would assume that UCG doesn't speak of Jesus. You're too biased!
ReplyDeletehttps://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/gods-holy-day-plan-the-promise-of-hope-for-all-mankind/the-passover-why-did-jesus-christ-have-to-die
There is nothing wrong with respecting Moses. Gregory of Nyssa wrote a great biography of Moses. Moses is a part of the Christian tradition. But there is something wrong in the Armstrongist branch of Millerism.
ReplyDeleteHere is a word association list: Law - judgment - Moses - elderly man - HWA - authority - obedience - punishment - holy day observations - sermon - offerings - attitude - special knowledge - special music - restaurant - bread - separation - superiority.
It was my experience that most of the meaning of the Armstrongists Spring Holy Days is covered by the list above - it is subjective but I would say 98% coverage. Without the introduction of Christ. But there is a tiny bit of attention paid to traditional Christian meanings. At Armstrongist Passover Services there is a reading of sections from the gospels dealing with the Crucifixion. But this always seemed to focus principally on the flow of events and the logistics and who said what when and somebody getting their ear cut off. This is all read and not explained. The only time Armstrongists really focus on Christ and the objective of his sacrifice is at this time and it is a plain reading - it does not rise to the level of a sermon.
Fully submerged to the point of obscurity beneath the description of logistics are such powerful Christian ideas as Jesus himself, grace (which is the principle driver of Christ's sacrifice and never mentioned among Armstrongists), mercy, forgiveness and love. Grace is stanched at its origin.
And the stamp of validity on all of this misguided practice is the bogus idea that Easter must be rejected because it is not on the "right day" and has ancient pagan associations.
I have written a lot here but now that I am a Christian, the Armstrongist way of approaching Christ seems really odd to me. It does not fit into the Christian movement at all.
The churches of God are not known for their worship and glorifying of Jesus, they seem to be ashamed of Him for some reason. He might get a brief mention when it's about the second coming and the judgement, but within the churches of God Moses gets a lot of credit and Herbert Armstrong gets all the glory.
ReplyDeleteCraig
"And so, dear brothers and sisters who belong to God and are partners with those called to heaven, think carefully about this JESUS whom we declare to be God’s messenger and High Priest. For he was faithful to God, who appointed him, just as Moses served faithfully when he was entrusted with God’s entire house. But JESUS deserves far more glory than Moses, just as a person who builds a house deserves more praise than the house itself. For every house has a builder, but the one who built everything is God. Moses was certainly faithful in God’s house as a servant. His work was an illustration of the truths God would reveal later. But CHRIST, as the Son, is in charge of God’s entire house. And we are God’s house, if we keep our courage and remain confident in our hope in CHRIST." --Hebrews 3:1-6
ReplyDeleteThe practices at the time of these holy days very much acts as a mirror of the belief system of Armstrongism. You have the Two Great Commandments of the Lord, love for God, and love for fellow man. They equate love for God with the obsessive keeping of carefully picked and chosen laws from Moses' era. This is taught and performed in an out of balance way, often to the exclusion of the second commandment, love for fellow man, a love which was demonstrated by Jesus through his life, death, and resurrection.
ReplyDeleteOne would expect to learn about Moses in a Jewish setting throughout the Passover season, because the Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Their go to guy is the leader in whom they do believe. One would think that there would at least be equal time for both in a Christian church, and actually more time spent on Jesus based on the passages describing the transfiguration (Matt. 17:1-8; Mark 9:2-8; Luke 9:28-36, and II Peter 1:16-18), however Armstrongism has traditionally not derived the meaning from this event that Christians generally perceive.
BB
"I have written a lot here but now that I am a Christian, the Armstrongist way of approaching Christ seems really odd to me. It does not fit into the Christian movement at all."
ReplyDeleteDid you ever think that you are at least partly to blame for feeling that way? I grew up in the WCG and I never was taught, or ever thought that Moses was ever more important than Jesus, nor the Old covenant more important than the New Covenant in Jesus'blood.
Maybe there really is something to the saying "They never really understood, they probably weren't converted". I realize that's taken as a slur, but what if there is truth to it?
Even the protestants when confronted with a backsliding christian will say they never really were a christian. The idea isn't exclusive to Armstrongism.
If you thought that Moses was more important than Jesus or the OC more important than the NC how do you know it was the WCG's fault and not your own? You come across as still being judgmental
Anonymous (9:30)
ReplyDeleteI developed the Moses fixation after I came into the WCG. Since I have had a technical career and am detail oriented, it is possible that the fixation dominated my thinking more than others - but I don't think so.
I do not think any of us were explicitly taught that Moses was more important than Christ. In fact, I am sure most WCG ministers would deny that such an idea is so. The existence of this error is not to be found in WCG declarations but in practice. For instance, the constant preoccupation with the Mosaic law and the short shrift given to Jesus and what Jesus brought us. You may say, because you were so close to it, that this never happened. But use the Christian concept of grace as an index. Grace is very much tied up with the work that Christ accomplished on the cross. But the WCG has an anemic, almost non-existent doctrine of grace. On the other hand, WCG has a big dedication to law keeping. They believe in salvation by works. They will deny this by use of the argument that the works are not yours but God's works in and through you. I don't think this stands up to scrutiny but don't have time to discuss it now. But it has very much a Mosaic bent.
You grew up in and were indoctrinated by the WCG. Consider that you may not be able to recognize the WCG for what it is.
NEO and 9:30, I think there may be a better way of reconciling your divergent points into one that you might both accept.
ReplyDeleteIn WCG, Jesus was more important than Moses, but His importance was precisely that He was a perfect type of Moses.
WCG technically taught that the various OT figures pre-figured Jesus, but in practice the OT figures were glorified so that Jesus often seemed to be taken simply as the New Covenant instance of the various idealized OT figures.
"They will deny this by use of the argument that the works are not yours but God's works in and through you."
ReplyDeleteKinda sounds like protestants who claim that if you have God's spirit you'll never break the "new law" the "law of love".
Indoctrinated? Is that why I proclaim that we don't keep the sabbath because of the fourth commandment but because it was made for man?
Is that why I proclaim that the New Covenant in Jesus' blood has absolutely no laws or commands, its sole purpose is to forgive sin, or law breaking?
Is that why I proclaim that we don't keep the feasts because of what Lev. 23 says but because God established appointments at creation. Gen. 1:14, and they will be kept in the millennium?
Is that why I proclaim that the New Covenant does not require tithing?
Is that why I proclaim that the NT does not teach a ministerial clergy class?
etc. etc. etc.
Wonder how long I'd last in the old WCG or in COGWA, UCG or LCG?
Hmmmm
ReplyDeleteWhy do Christian folk say, when hearing a little kid play perfect piano, she has such a gift from God?
What does that imply for the 5 year old when she says, I don't wanna play piano I wanna play with Ken and Ken my favorite couple of dolls, I can dress and shampoo them as I like when sister Barbie is leading her Forbes 500 company?
Nck
Members with any discernable Jesus traits were persecuted by many in the COG, even by the ministers. By contrast, members warmed up to cruel jerks like Rod Meridith. So of course Christ is shunned. It's like ancient Israel rejecting God by asking for a king.
ReplyDeleteV. True Anonymous 12:46
DeleteNck
ReplyDeleteIt's brave of you to come out of the closet. If you want to play with Barbie dolls, that's fine with the community on Banned. We are broad minded and accepting.
What does that imply for the 5 year old when she says, I don't wanna play piano I wanna play with Ken and Ken my favorite couple of dolls, I can dress and shampoo them as I like when sister Barbie is leading her Forbes 500 company?
ReplyDeleteWTF? Trying to understand what this has to do with Moses, or what it even means.
5:12
ReplyDeleteThe discussion seems to be on "requirements".
The kid in the example is clearly "blessed" with gifts I have not. However "she refuses" to use them to potential. Is that a bad thing to to not live up to certain standards? What is a human required to do? Are we required to "do" or to "accept?"
Kinda that kind of line of thinking/dimension I added in Nck speak.
Will a person be judged who was given the talents to lead a nation but decided to work in special education for special need kids? I know such a person BTW.
For those who have seen the directors cut. Kingdom of Heaven, what should Balian have done, save and lead Jerusalem for the Christian world or run of with his Lady? I don't understand why he chose the latter, what does His think of this?
Nck