Child abuse and the church.
Racism and the church.
Divorce and Remarriage and the church.
Failed prophecies and the church.
What’s the common theme? The root of the problem? Satan? Human nature? Or an organization that continues to feed on fear, perpetuate hate, and devour the flock.
Can an evil tree bear good fruit? “The Two Trees” need a chainsaw.
from a reader
Forget the two trees. I need a steam shovel to scoop the crap of Bob Thiel out of the church.
ReplyDeleteTo me, the root of it all goes back to the prohibition to take part of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
ReplyDeleteThats why these questions are asked instead of answered.
Nck
Growing up as a child in the church I was beaten mercilessly by my parents because of Armstrong's lies. It is sick that today in 2020 people still think it is ok and that those were the good old days.
ReplyDeleteThe tree of life has never hurt anyone.
ReplyDeleteNck is correct.
ReplyDeleteAs we should know by now in the original Sumerian Creation Myth, coopted by the Hebrew Priests to put a Hebrew spin on the tale, the knowledge of Good and Evil, as well as the Tree of Life, I assume meaning, eternal, were God Fruit Trees. Not for humans.
In the day and the original story the humans were merely worker bees that got on the nerves of the gods , so they drown them. But in the Hebrew myth, the Serpent actually tells the truth.
"You won't die that very day" (A day as a thousand years and Methusalah living to only 969 is what God meant is made up apologetic) and "You will know good from evil as the gods do" as if that was a bad thing. Putting in the middle of the garden was also a cheap trick. If it's off limits, put in the safe and lock the door. That's how a normal parent would store a gun if they had any sense at all. Clearly a set up! lol.
Genesis 3:1-6
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ “
“You will not surely die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.
As a result, mankind got kicked out of paradise, or worker bee farm and we put our heads together in time and went to the Moon and invented the Hubbell telescope to see what else we weren't to know.
Dennis.
ReplyDeletePeople with opinions get hurled insults. I love it when you invite the insult of "Marduk" as I personally revel in the "Mr know it all." It is after all my single purpose in life.
The plight of the brave Yezidi girls is particularly dear to my heart. The girls were so sweet before they needed to transform into an army, persecuted for a particular remnant of belief that incorporated a black serpent and a strong angel. I love to think their system are remnants of some sort of connection to the garden of eden. But it might be an Assyrian thing.
In the middle of the garden eh?
Hi kids, don't touch the cookies on the table. I'll be home for sabbath. Do your homework. Dad.
Nck
Dennis wrote: "As we should know by now in the original Sumerian Creation Myth, coopted by the Hebrew Priests . . ."
ReplyDeleteWhy should we know this "by now" when it is only an opinion? It is true that scholars believe the Eridu Genesis dates to the mid-Second Millennium. And the Hebrew Genesis was compiled in the mid-First Millennium. So, one came before the other but only as regards discovery. The precise dating of the original writing of either is unknown. So postulating a derivation of one from the other based on chronology is guesswork.
Moreover, the content of the two accounts is only superficially similar in narrative. In theological content, the accounts seem to me to be disjoint. Upon reading, I think that most people would agree with that view. Hence, conjecturing a derivation is a long shot. Really, the most you can say is that there was some kind of an ancient flood event that was commonly known among the peoples of this region - maybe the Sharuppak event. If anything, it supports the localized nature of this event.
The rest of what you have written might engender a discussion of how Genesis is mythicized history and how it was likely compiled from a couple of different text fragments. The interpretation you place on the content, however, is your own.
If all who read and post comments hate Armstrongism so much why do you dredge it up every chance you get. Every cult or main stream religion has things that are or were not good. Yes there were many things wrong and many things right with the old wwcg. As with anything in the hands of man they will screw it up. Man obviously can not govern themselves with out every kind of inhuman practices. If what is being done in a church is illegal whom ever it is should
ReplyDeletebe prosecuted.If it isn't just leave. It seems that 90% of them are in it for the money.How many especially Cogwa wanted you to keep sending in tithes and offerings but none of the top flunkies ever offered to cut their salary to help someone out who was in need,
Anonymous 8:50
ReplyDeleteThe old question that is relevant here is: "Is it a matter of degree or is it a matter of category." I believe that Armstrongism is categorically different from Christianity. I don't like Calvinism either but I think it minimally qualifies to be in the Christian Category.
There are many reason why I see this as a category difference. The leading reason is that Armstrongists do not worship the same god as Christians. And Armstrongists will tell you so quite unabashedly. Armstrongists worship a god which is like a Demiurge in ancient philosophy.
-- Neotherm
Heh, my wife and I have been casting about in the real estate market lately (our home is fine, but we've been considering moving to a slightly more urban location).
ReplyDeleteWell, yesterday she excitedly showed me a property she'd found with potential.
Only problem? Its on an Armstrong Avenue.
I admit I laughed. Of all street names...
Initial questions Asked were: "What’s the common theme? The root of the problem? Satan? Human nature?..."
ReplyDeletenck, June 25, 2020 at 10:19 PM, said...
To me, the root of it all goes back to the prohibition to take part of the tree of knowledge of good and evil....
******
I don't consider human nature to be the problem, b/c of what was said in Genesis 1.
"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Genesis 1:31
That human nature, the nature God created in Adam and Eve, was very good. God knows good and evil. He did create the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Carnal nature is something else.
Adam and Eve continued knowing about good. Evil did not become evident in their lives until after their minds were infested/infected by Satan...kind of like Satan's nature, or spirit, overwhelmed their "very good" human nature to a large extent. All humanity since has been experiencing good and evil. People are even learning to hate evil. Of course, some hate evil more than others.
It's like people experiencing taxes and death. Perhaps evil could/should be added. And bondage? And fear?
But death?
Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
And that root of evil? Could it be that spirit (e.g. James 4:5; 2 Tim 2:26; I John 3:8, 12, etc.) that was allowed into that Garden of Eden? God has allowed good and evil to exist to this day.
Supposedly, and thankfully, death and Satan and whatever is associated with things like that aren't forever, but...
Time will tell...
John
Thanks John.
ReplyDeleteI apreciate your comment. It touches the topic of predestination but more importantly dualism as related to my personal interest in discovering the castles of the cathars.
Nck
There is unrest in the forest
ReplyDeleteThere is trouble with the trees
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas
The trouble with the maples
(And they're quite convinced they're right)
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade
There is trouble in the forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the maples scream 'Oppression!'
And the oaks just shake their heads
So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights
'The oaks are just too greedy
We will make them give us light'
Now there's no more oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe and saw
"The Trees"
@ 9:56am
ReplyDeleteOh the irony, yeah RSK that too is funny. And if you make a right turn off Armstrong Avenue onto Meredith Boulevard you'll find the businesses Packed with a Flurry of activities, especially at Ted's Massage Parlor. If his AMC Ambassador's a rockin' don't come a knockin'. Don't forget to drop into the British/Israel Pub for a pint and please remember to leave a 30% tip and a tip of a tip.
What's wrong with racism? It just means you like your own family the best. It is godly and natural. The Jews certainly do it and so do blacks. Why can't everyone else? It is a virtue.
ReplyDelete10.24 PM
ReplyDeleteThat's not the typical definition of racism. A typical definition is:
"racism claims that the content of a man's mind is inherited, that a man's convictions, values and character are determined before he is born, by physical factors beyond his control. Racism negates two aspects of man's life, reason and choice, or mind and morality, replacing them with chemical predestination."
Hi John Time will tell.
ReplyDeleteOut of apreciation I will insert some more thoughts about the topic of "knowledge of good and evil."
Evil is often presented as "the battle against evil". This should remind us to seek it first in ourselves. Every punishment we administer should be considered a defeat for all involved, no reason for rejoicing. To humiliate or ostracise others is to point toward humans as expendables.
The bible speaks about two trees and knowledge VERSUS the ancient belief system that "the strongest is good."
Who is to decide that an old age pensioner with covid is expandable and should let a 40 year old go first to IC? A person who "KNOWS", signals that that person is in the know who are the "expendable humans."
Moreover historically Evil has not only been defined as caused by humans.
The 1755 Lisbon earthquake send SHOCKWAVES through Europe. Not because of the tremors but because of the shaking of the idea that God is or intends good.
In 1759 Voltaire produced Candide of Optimism which therefore was not produced in a vaccuum. Darkness does not come from irony but is for certain is known for its lack of irony.
At the time the University of Coimbra decided that to "burn a few people" would for certain prevent earthquakes in the future. Of course for those who see earthquakes as a punishment from God there is a temptation to burn a few heretics or make other sacrifices like the tithe of the 4th tithe and the 5th tithe to appease god.
Coincidence or fate as cause for disaster are very unattractive alternatives.
So what is morality?
Universal.
The morality of the strongest?
Expandability?
Competitive between groupings? Struggle between classes or peoples? Is my group necessary and the other expendable?
Human attempts to purify eredicate all evil have often resulted into the greatest of atrocities. Perhaps people who fight evil should keep in mind that a bit of evil is might not be completely superfluous.
nck
nck, June 30, 2020 at 1:23 AM, said:
ReplyDelete******
"...Out of apreciation I will insert some more thoughts about the topic of "knowledge of good and evil."
Evil is often presented as "the battle against evil". This should remind us to seek it first in ourselves. Every punishment we administer should be considered a defeat for all involved, no reason for rejoicing. To humiliate or ostracise others is to point toward humans as expendables.
The bible speaks about two trees and knowledge...Human attempts to purify eredicate all evil have often resulted into the greatest of atrocities. Perhaps people who fight evil should keep in mind that a bit of evil is might not be completely superfluous.
******
Nck, it's interesting that you think we remind ourselves of the evil within ourselves, which is something the apostle Paul pointed out something similar:
"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me." Romans 7:21
That evil is present, but what dwells within? Paul again, in that same chapter of Romans:
:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Was Paul mistaken saying that? Paul repeats it with similar words:
:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
But, returning to that "evil," we may also read this:
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]." Isaiah 45:7
Evil seems to have its place in the overall scheme of things. We all are impacted by evil(s) daily. We learn about evil. Some come to hate evil, and in some cases even depart from evil.
Lots of opinions exist. What will be the end result regarding evil?
Time will tell...
John
John of "Time will tell" says, "Evil seems to have its place in the overall scheme of things. We all are impacted by evil(s) daily. We learn about evil. Some come to hate evil, and in some cases even depart from evil."
ReplyDeleteYes, absolutely. God is creating a cosmic work of dramatic art. No drama can hold an audience's interest without conflict, and the conflict that contains all the others is the conflict between good and evil. God frankly declares his intention to weave them together into a pattern, as we see in John's quotation of Isaiah 45:7 above. Furthermore, God gets wrathfully impatient with critics who fault the balance he writes into the script. As he told Job, his creative intentions and his power to carry them out are so far above the feeble grasp of mortals that we must never get all meddlesome and kibitz any edits. We have no more insight than maggots. Job was a righteous maggot, but until God smothered him in evils, he could not grasp the fact that abject submission to authority is the highest good a righteous maggot can attain.
Anonymous Retired Prof, July 3, 2020 at 12:25 PM, said:
ReplyDelete******
"...Yes, absolutely. God is creating a cosmic work of dramatic art. No drama can hold an audience's interest without conflict, and the conflict that contains all the others is the conflict between good and evil. God frankly declares his intention to weave them together into a pattern, as we see in John's quotation of Isaiah 45:7 above. Furthermore, God gets wrathfully impatient with critics who fault the balance he writes into the script. As he told Job, his creative intentions and his power to carry them out are so far above the feeble grasp of mortals that we must never get all meddlesome and kibitz any edits. We have no more insight than maggots. Job was a righteous maggot, but until God smothered him in evils, he could not grasp the fact that abject submission to authority is the highest good a righteous maggot can attain."
******
God may be more in control than we realize, as indicated by your comment about God's creating
Isaiah 55:7 "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. [{the unrighteous … : Heb. the man of iniquity }] [{abundantly … : Heb. multiply to pardon }
]8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it."
Time will tell...
John