Good morning, ministers and wives.
I trust this email finds you well.
When God called me in 2008, I never thought I'd find myself writing an email like this one. But if we can agree that God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor . 14:33), then we can also agree that what's currently being taught by our pastor general is not of God.
To say that there's a lot of confusion in the Church would be an understatement. Brethren no longer know what to believe because they simply can't keep things straight. If you don't know this already, talk to the brethren about prophecy. Or for that matter, talk to a fellow-minister.
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but TRY THE SPIRITS WHETHER THEY ARE OF GOD: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. ... (6) We are of God: he that knows God hears us; he that is not of God doesn't hear us. HEREBY KNOW WE THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, AND THE SPIRIT OF ERROR” (1 John 4:1, 6).
John wrote a lot about truth and when we read the books he was inspired to write, we can know it is truth. But, we are also supposed to be able to distinguish truth from the spirit of error! If dozens of failed prophetic scenarios is not the spirit of error, then I don't know what is! What does it matter if the spirit of error is being introduced by the top man or someone else? The spirit of error is the spirit of error!
We frequently say in the Church that we shouldn't get hung up on prophecy being wrong. However, technically speaking, anything taught is doctrine. It's the very definition of the word. So there is false doctrine being taught. And besides that, we often touch on foundational doctrines and change them to fit the latest prophetic narrative anyway.
For example, we recently said that the God that Moses , Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel saw was the Father (Ex. 24:9-10.) But how can we ignore plain scriptures like John 1:18? “No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared [Him].” What allows us to sweep aside SUCH A SIMPLE scripture like that? When establishing doctrine, are we not to start with the simplest scriptures first?
Our understanding of who and what God is has changed dramatically in recent months. When is the last time we properly referred to God as a family? Do we really think that the most spectacular era of God's Church, the Philadelphian era, who God said NOTHING bad about in Revelation, had the wrong understanding of who and what God is? Did our predecessors not know God in the same way that we now do? On logic alone, it's inconceivable!
Then there are the verses that we flat out ignore. 2 Cor. 5:10 says that we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ. But not us? Somehow we've made it already? Most, if not all of you, care for more of God's sheep than I do. When you heard Rev. 22:11 explained (“He that is unjust, let him be unjust still...”), did you honestly think that everyone in your pastorate was sealed at that time? That people were done growing? That it was time to relax? What spirit influenced such a thing to be taught?
As ministers, we represent the Church. Especially the Headquarters ministry. I, for one, can't look brethren in the eyes anymore and explain the latest prophetic scenario to them. What's taught is plain strange at times. We always start with the belief that there's no way Christ could come beyond the current week we're in and then we wrest the scriptures to fit that bias.
I want to go on record to say that I'm not following anyone or any group. Some of you may know that an old friend of mine, Riordan Dennis, was removed from the Church recently. I made the mistake of being too friendly with Riordan after he left and was ultimately used by him, and the group that he's a part of, in a way that appeared to lend credence to their movement. I do not follow them. I have no interest in attending a splinter that has compromised on the truth of God even more than The Restored Church of God has. I don't claim to know how the prophetic pieces of the jigsaw puzzle fit.
Let me state that it's wonderful to be here at Headquarters. I love the home we're in. I love living on this beautiful campus. I love you and all the friends I have here and in the wider Church. I love the job I have. I love being the minister over Pittsburgh. But at the end of the day, THE TRUTH HAS TO MATTER MORE THAN ANY OF THIS! It's the only reason we came to the Church in the first place.
I understand that this email will likely lead to me being fired. I'm OK with that. I hope you will also stand up for the truth as ministers of God, no matter how uncomfortable that might be at times. I trust that God will sort out this mess in His time, however, I wasn't prepared to look Christ in the eyes and explain to Him why I didn't stand up for the truth and for His people.
In Christ's Service,
Alex J. Groen
This fellow was called in 2008, and was already a minister. I have been involved with the COG for nearly 40 years, and hardly feel qualified to teach anyone. I am not even and Deacon, and don't want to be one.
ReplyDeleteI suppose I am qualified to clean toilets and mop up vomit. Most of my COG life I've had to listen to the unclean lips of men who spew out lies and hate. I am glad to leave most of that in the past.
That took some balls to write, especially knowing that he is a minister living on the compound. We can be guaranteed he will be fired and the home taken away as fast as possible.
ReplyDeleteI can just see Dave bellowing from his fancy office how angry he is.
Obviously he knew his involvement with Riordan Dennis was ALREADY going to lead Dave to fire him. So he doubled down and took a parting shot at Dave. He's still quite brainwashed, though, as he thinks the splinter his friend attends is further from the truth than RCG is, when RCG is already so far from the truth that it isn't even fair to call it Christianity or a Church of God. Poor guy; I hope he does well after his re-entry into normal life.
ReplyDeleteWay to go Alex! I didn't think you had that in you honestly.
ReplyDeleteJesus Christ said towards the end of his walk that he came to bear witness unto the truth.
Dave Pack on the other hand has redefined God as the ones who have purposely led him in his many u-turns in redefining the gospel.
The Greatest Story Never Told is all about a gospel according to Dave Pack and has to be believed and obeyed. Unfortunately that gospel has himself as the centerpiece of it with the return of Christ only being the avenue for Mr. Pack's worldwide advancement.
"Getting hung up on prophecy" is code for don't blink when God gets redefined and when the bible gets redefined and religious leaders of the past get redefined.
Sorry to say Alex, but the mechanism is already in place to redefine you. Don't blink twice when you hear just what that is!
Listen to me, said the prophet.
ReplyDeleteCan I Play With Madness
Looks like it's time to ditch the Dwight Armstrong hymnal and Up the Irons!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvqr366Op3k
Alex J. Groen said, "Our understanding of who and what God is has changed dramatically in recent months. When is the last time we properly referred to God as a family? Do we really think that the most spectacular era of God's Church, the Philadelphian era, who God said NOTHING bad about in Revelation, had the wrong understanding of who and what God is? Did our predecessors not know God in the same way that we now do? On logic alone, it's inconceivable!"
ReplyDeleteMY COMMENT - I find it interesting that this Alex Groen, who only converted in 2008 and now a minister, knows about foundational classic Armstrong doctrines such as "the Philadelphia era" and "God is a family". This tells me that Armstrongism is drawing a very small handful of new converts post WCG splintering and that they are drinking the "classic coke" of the "Philadelphia era". And that in this case, this Alex Groen was sharp enough to see the Packatolla going way off course while the long time/old timers Pack prey upon like a wolf were too brain dead to see it. AND, also too brain dead to do anything about it.
I wonder if Alex Groen wants his "common" back?
Richard
If he had resolved to go down the straight and narrow, why did it take him so long to see the light?
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteThe false prophets like Gerald Flurry and David Pack who claimed to be following Herbert W. Armstrong more faithfully than anyone else have actually departed from his teachings much more than anyone else has. Gerald Flurry and David Pack are nothing but evil continually.
They’re all leaving the sinking ship. Good for them!
ReplyDeleteSoon enough it will be just The Great Packster and his poor wife. Imagine that: you’re Vernia and your husband has nobody left to rant and spit at ...
The only reason they have young and totally inexperienced ministers is that there’s not enough people to choose from anymore. My old minister was a member for only four years when he was ‘ordained’ and has been terrorizing that congregation since the moment he became a minister. And these young ones are so indoctrinated that they follow every order they get from headquarters, without thinking if something is right or justified.
The new ones don’t become ministers because they’re capable. They become ministers because they’re available..
ReplyDeleteHow did people looking for a true Christian leader get stuck with a demoniac like Dave Pack?
"This fellow was called in 2008, and was already a minister. I have been involved with the COG for nearly 40 years, and hardly feel qualified to teach anyone. I am not even and Deacon, and don't want to be one.
ReplyDeleteI suppose I am qualified to clean toilets and mop up vomit. Most of my COG life I've had to listen to the unclean lips of men who spew out lies and hate. I am glad to leave most of that in the past."
I don't think you left it in the past or you wouldn't be commenting on it now. Wow! 40 years of cleaning toilets and mopping up vomit? I only did that for 26 years. It takes a lot of toilets and a lot of vomit to finally WAKE UP!
Alex mentions scripture that they flat out ignore. One they seem to ignore often is Due. 18:22. I'm sure ol' Davey is mighty glad his sheeple bury their heads in the sand on that one.
ReplyDeleteThe old WCG , back in the 50s and 60s also put very young and inexperienced AC grads into pulpits around the country, and many became "Little Hitlers" and were cocksure, vain , tyrannical fools too.
ReplyDeleteI am curious to know what the "succession plan" for Pack's org will be once he croaks. Pack is 72 years old and has had some health issues. He does not appear to have a named or prepared successor, and Im sure there will be an absolute "free for all" for the Pack Throne once he expires.
You guys just pissed off Mr Pack. He is not happy this is public knowledge now. This exposes him as a liar when he says all the ministry is unified behind his teachings. There are going to be some more employees leave soon.
ReplyDeleteA free for all for the Pack Throne? Will there be much left? It might be more like gaining the command of a military unit that is about to be used as cannon fodder. Stephen Flurry is another soon to be "commander" of a sinking ship. How is Flurry doing, healthwise? He's close to 80 year old, isn't he? I wonder if those who are standing in the wings to succeed him has a "to do list"? 1. Get rid of the jet. 2. Sell of the English campus. 3. Cancel further performances of Irish Dancing.
ReplyDeleteI am curious to know what the "succession plan" for Pack's org will be once he croaks.
ReplyDeleteHe is married. Under Ohio law, if Pack hasn't made a will, the new wife gets $20,000 plus half of the rest of Pack's assets, and Pack's kids divide the other half.
Assuming that RCG is a corporation sole, this means the wife and kids get the assets. Will the family members agreeably divide the assets, or will there need to be a bunch of sales of homes and other assets?
I assume that Pack has made a will, otherwise there will be chaos in Packland.
“Mr.” Pack.. Can we just call him Pack, Packatollah Pick-Packet, or Packie..
ReplyDeleteThis liar and despot deserves no respect.
Even the rats are abandoning the sinking ship. Down goes the SS RCG, may she rot at the bottom of the sea.
ReplyDeleteAnon 1:53, Gerald Flurry was born in 1935.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 2:25 PM said...“'Mr.' Pack.. Can we just call him Pack, Packatollah Pick-Packet, or Packie.. This liar and despot deserves no respect.”
Show the appropriate respect that he deserves by using his full name and title:
Klepto-Dave Pack-of-lies
The Packillogical liar
Technically he says that somewhere around 2010 the Packatollah went off the rails. Then he assumes he will be fired. What would happen if he would be assigned to Hawai in the name of "the Family?"
ReplyDeleteNck
Well Done. We the members of the Restored Church of God support this Minister. Pack has become filled with a Spirit of Lies and The devil has Great Power over Pack and his Rule upon the Church. He is One Bad naughty Man.
ReplyDeleteThe RCG-cult is the most extreme and entertaining of all the Armstrongist splinters:
ReplyDeleteIt's fun to watch - from afar - the downward spiral of his shrinking commie fiefdom.
I spent 13 frightful years in the Worldwide Church of God. I was so relieved when Tkach made his changes, recognizing that most of the harsh doctrines of the church simply had no scriptural basis. I was able to return to authentic Christianity, where Christ focally reigns.
ReplyDeleteWhen I "joined" I was as deluded as everyone else. I pondered, that with all of these "truths," what would develop; how big and great would the church grow? Would it eventually surpass the size and influence of the other quasi-Christian churches? Would we eventually become truly worldwide, matching or surpassing the Jehovah's Witnesses, or the Mormons?
Today, I'm comforted to watch the slow but sure decline and exhaustion of each and all of the Armstrongian "churches." Not a one is thriving. At best, membership, primarily of older, legacy members (few new ones) might be clinging to a continuing small core of active members.
But simply, and gratefully, Armstrongism is dying. Those thousands whose lives would have been so horribly distorted and twisted by Armstrong's contrived doctrines (e.g. second and third tithes) will be spared. We are now watching this on the east end of Wadsworth, Ohio. May the day be hastened when Wadsworth might have a new, useful "community center."
Need to update the photo with the faces white outed.
ReplyDeleteAlex commented saying: "For example, we recently said that the God that Moses , Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel saw was the Father (Ex. 24:9-10Open in Logos Bible Software (if available).) But how can we ignore plain scriptures like John 1:18Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)? “No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared [Him].” What allows us to sweep aside SUCH A SIMPLE scripture like that? When establishing doctrine, are we not to start with the simplest scriptures first?"
ReplyDelete******
An article titled "Hearing and Seeing God," I found interesting, put out by the Pacificcog.org says the following:
"...Based on the “God of the Old Testament” teaching, all of the these references and thus
the title “God of our fathers” would have to be referring exclusively to Christ since the belief is
that Israel didn’t have any interaction with God the Father and wasn’t even aware of His
existence. How could they worship an individual and consider Him the “God of our fathers” that
they didn’t even know existed? Based on this belief they would simply have to be referring to
Christ with this title as it simply wouldn’t make sense for them to apply this title to anyone else
and especially not someone they didn’t even know existed. However, when we look at who this
title is applied to in the New Testament we find exactly the opposite of what would be expected
based on the “God of the Old Testament” teaching. What we find is that the “God of our fathers”
is always a reference to God the Father and many of the references are in the context of
contrasting the Father and Christ so we just can’t misunderstand who the term is being applied
to. Here are some examples:
Acts 3:13-15
13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His
Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he
was determined to let Him go. 14 But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked
for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised
from the dead, of which we are witnesses..."
For any interested, the above article does not sweep aside John 1:18.
John
Pack technically does not own the Restored Church of God, as it is a 501c3 organization, or a corporation sole. It has at minimum a dummy board. He has personal possessions , like all of us, and those would be part of his own personal estate, and subject to inheritance, title, and probate laws, based on a will or trust.
ReplyDeletePack can name his titular successor, just like Armstrong did before he died when he named Tkach. This may already be in place as a legal document, but currently kept as a blind appointment , subject to change while Pack is alive , and on file with legal counsel.
At Pack's website , the following disclosure is made that is very untrue. There is no way that the organization is funded by voluntary, freely given offerings. Forced compelled common, is not a voluntary offering.
"made possible by the voluntary, freely given tithes and offerings of the members of The Restored Church of God, and by the offerings and donations of co-workers and donors. Contributions are gratefully welcomed and are tax-deductible in the U.S. and Canada."
10.25 PM
ReplyDeleteYes Australia, Pack is a drongo, ratbag, religious Ned Kelly.
Re Pacific COG view like RCG teaching God the Father was seen in OT see https://carm.org/has-anyone-seen-god-or-not as a rebuff and even Scott Ashley wrote a solid article refuting this teaching in a previous issue of Beyond Today.
ReplyDeleteAnon, July 16, 2020 at 6:36 AM, wrote: "Re Pacific COG view like RCG teaching God the Father was seen in OT see https://carm.org/has-anyone-seen-god-or-not as a rebuff and even Scott Ashley wrote a solid article refuting this teaching in a previous issue of Beyond Today."
ReplyDelete******
I visited that carm site, using the address above, seeking the article you suggested, and received the following response:
Page not found
The requested page "/has-anyone-seen-god" could not be found.
Do you have specific information on the article in Beyond Today?
Thanks for the suggestion, anyway.
John
John 11:40 AM
ReplyDeleteThe link works for me John. Idk why it wouldn't for you. Nevertheless here's what it states for your interest:
**********
Has anyone seen God or not?
Has seen
(Gen. 17:1), “Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless;
(Gen. 18:1) Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.”
(Exodus 6:2-3), "God spoke further to Moses and said to him, "I am the LORD; 3and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, LORD, I did not make Myself known to them.”
(Exodus 24:9-11), “Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank.”
(Num. 12:6-8), “He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. 7"Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses ?"
(Acts 7:2), "And he [Stephen] said, 'Hear me, brethren and fathers! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran . . . '"
(TBC)
Has not seen
ReplyDelete(Exodus 33:20), “But He [God] said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"
(John 1:18), “No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
(John 5:37), “"And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.”
(John 6:46), "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.”
(1 Tim. 6:15-16), “He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.”
It is evident above that God was seen. But, considering the "can't-see-God" verses, some would understandably argue that there would be a contradiction. One explanation offered is that the people were seeing visions, or dreams, or the Angel of the LORD (Num. 22:22-26; Judges 13:1-21) and not really God Himself. But the problem is that the verses cited above do not say vision, dream, or Angel of the LORD. They say that people saw God (Exodus 24:9-11), that God was seen, and that He appeared as God Almighty (Exodus 6:2-3).
At first, this is difficult to understand. God Almighty was seen (Exodus 6:2-3) which means it was not the Angel of the Lord, for an angel is not God Almighty; and at least Moses saw God and not in a vision or dream, as the LORD Himself attests in Num. 12:6-8. If these verses mean what they say, then we naturally assume we have a contradiction. Actually, the contradiction exists in our understanding, not in the Bible, which is always the case with alleged biblical contradictions.
The solution is simple. All you need to do is accept what the Bible says. If the people of the OT were seeing God, the Almighty God, and Jesus said that no one has ever seen the Father (John 6:46), then they were seeing God Almighty but not the Father. It was someone else in the Godhead. I suggest that they were seeing the Word before He became incarnate. In other words, they were seeing Jesus.
If God is a Trinity, then John 1:18 is not a problem either because in John chapter one, John writes about the Word (Jesus) and God (the Father). In verse 14 it says the Word became flesh. In verse 18 it says no one has seen God. Since Jesus is the Word, God then, refers to the Father. This is typically how John writes of God: as a reference to the Father. We see this verified in Jesus' own words in John 6:46 where He said that no one has ever seen the Father. Therefore, Almighty God was seen but not the Father. It was Jesus before His incarnation. There is more than one person in the Godhead, and the doctrine of the Trinity must be true.
About The Author
Matt Slick is the President and Founder of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry.
(SOURCE: Has anyone seen God or not?)
Re the Beyond Today article by Scott Ashley I suggested you'll find it on pages 9-12 of the March-April 2020 issue. It's entitled, "That Rock was Christ." I found it a solid article that used various scriptures that question, even undermine, Mark Mickelson's teachings adopted by Rick Railston's Pacific COG, like 1) Jesus wasn't claiming to be the I AM of Exodus 3:13-14 in John 8:57-58; 2) Jesus cannot be Yahweh of the OT since it is God the Father's name; 3) God the Father was seen and heard in the OT and will return with Jesus fulfilling scriptures like Zechariah 14:3-4 that refers to Yahweh defending Jerusalem and His feet standing on the Mount of Olives; etc.
ReplyDeleteAnyway hope all of this is of help.
Anon, July 17, 2020 at 1:43 AM, wrote:
ReplyDelete******
Re the Beyond Today article by Scott Ashley I suggested you'll find it on pages 9-12 of the March-April 2020 issue. It's entitled, "That Rock was Christ." I found it a solid article that used various scriptures that question, even undermine, Mark Mickelson's teachings adopted by Rick Railston's Pacific COG, like 1) Jesus wasn't claiming to be the I AM of Exodus 3:13-14 in John 8:57-58; 2) Jesus cannot be Yahweh of the OT since it is God the Father's name; 3) God the Father was seen and heard in the OT and will return with Jesus fulfilling scriptures like Zechariah 14:3-4 that refers to Yahweh defending Jerusalem and His feet standing on the Mount of Olives; etc.
Anyway hope all of this is of help.
******
Thanks for the information. I read Scott Ashley's article you suggested, and another one by Scott titled "The Greatest Sacrifice" and his editorial in that same issue of Beyond Today, and I still must conclude that the information provided by Pacific cog, and Mark Mickelson, makes more sense. Within all three of Scott's articles he never addresses Acts 3:13 or, for that matter, Deuteronomy 32:40. That is like turning a blind eye to some vital Biblical information.
Beyond Today has an insert titled "Why was it necessary for Jesus Christ to Suffer" and another titled "Many Scriptures Point to God as Israel's "Rock", but again, no mention of Acts 3:13 or Deut 32:40.
Scott believes, as was taught by HWA, that God and His only begotten Son "...had existed together for all eternity outside the bounds of time and space." Mark Mickelson, using different words, also still believes the identical same thing as Scott.
Yet, Deut 32:40 applies to only one being:
"For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever."
Two beings did not say those words.
And that One Being, God, The God, mentions in many verses, including the following verse, that He was ALONE: there could not be 2 of them!
"See now that I, [even] I, [am] he, and [there is] NO GOD with ME: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither [is there any] that can deliver out of my hand." Deut 32:39
So, once upon a time, long ago, before there was any so-called "beginning," was there only One, or were there 2 Beings?
I believe there was only One that had no beginning and no end, and that One may be referred to as "The Rock," and was not "that spiritual Rock that followed them." But was "that Rock that followed them" known as the Word, which had a beginning?
The Word had a beginning and an end when it was made flesh. Jesus Christ had a beginning, and an end when He was murdered and ceased existence for a few days.
Neither the Word or Jesus Christ, in Deut 32:40, could say: "For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever," and...
Time will tell...
John
John
Is there a way I can get in touch with someone who knows what's going on in the RCG? All of my family is in the church and I really want to get some information as to what's going on behind the scenes.
ReplyDeleteME TOO!!
DeleteAs an aside, in the “Song of Moses,” perhaps better the “Song of YHWH,” the name “Lord” [YHWH] occurs seven times.
ReplyDeleteDt 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
The nearest antecedent of the personal pronoun in verse 40 is “Lord” [YHWH] in verse 36. Yahweh therefore says, “I live for ever” (v.40).
In verse 43 there is an appeal for the nations to rejoice with “his” people.
The possessive pronoun “his” also refers to the Lord [YHWH]. Therefore, the nations are called upon to rejoice with the Lord’s [YHWH’s] people. (Cp. Rom 15:10).
The Septuagint version has added another line to this verse:
Deu 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him [LXX/Odes 2:43];
The third-person pronoun “him” also refers to the nearest antecedent in verse 36 Lord (Kyrios].
So the appeal in the Septuagint is for “the angels of God” to worship the Lord [Kyrios].
What is of interest is the author of Hebrews use of this clause:
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
The author of Hebrews applies in 1:6b what refers to the Lord = YHWH= Kyrios in the Septuagint OT to Jesus Christ. The “angels of God” are called upon to worship the Son.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: (See LXX 101:26; cp. Psalm 102:24-25 (AV).
The author of Hebrews also applies a Septuagint OT passage addressed to the Lord [Kyrios] to Jesus Christ.
Ps 102:1 Hear my prayer, O LORD [YHWH], and let my cry come unto thee. (AV).
In the MT, the Psalm is the prayer of the supplicant/speaker.
But in the Septuagint, “he answered” in verse 23, suggests a change in speaker, so that now the speaker can be God and the person spoken to can be the “Lord” (v.26).
[“he answered” appears to be a mistranslation of “he weakened” in the MT].
Therefore, the author of Hebrews, with the aid of the Septuagint, transfers to the Son what applies to God.
The Septuagint’s apparent mistranslation opens a door for the christological appropriation of Psalm 102:25-27.
Therefore the author of Hebrews can apply what is said of Yahweh in:
Ps 102:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
to Jesus Christ:
Heb 1:12b but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Following on from what Anonymous 24/7 9:55 PM said a good article available only via Wayback Machine by Dave Antion looks at the “One God” theory, which was originally promoted by Ken Westby I believe. Mark Mickelson seems to promote a version of this theory.
ReplyDeletehttps://web.archive.org/web/20061128041449/http://www.davidantion.com/deity_of_jesus.htm
Anon, July 25, 2020 at 6:45 PM, wrote:
ReplyDelete******
"...Following on from what Anonymous 24/7 9:55 PM said a good article available only via Wayback Machine by Dave Antion looks at the “One God” theory, which was originally promoted by Ken Westby I believe. Mark Mickelson seems to promote a version of this theory.
https://web.archive.org/web/20061128041449/http://www.davidantion.com/deity_of_jesus.htm
******
From what I've read of Mark Mickelson, he does promote the "God of the Old Testament" is the one spoken of as God, The God, the one God, the Father: YHWH.
WCG taught (HWA taught what he knew at the time: his time) Jesus Christ was the God of the Old Testament; however, similar to what HWA taught, and United Ass. still teaches, Mark believes that the Word (later made flesh: Jesus Christ), like God the Father, has eternal life: no beginning.
I agree to some extent; however, neither the Word, nor Jesus Christ, could have the following verse apply to either one of them:
"For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever." Deut 32:40
Neither the Word, or Jesus Christ, could have said when Moses was inspired to pen those words of Deut: "I live for ever!"
Mark does not need to understand that, but he learned enough that he knew it was no longer possible for him to continue to associate with United.
Guess what? Mark has been granted more repentance/change in his personal life: something we all do to one degree or another. Will Mark be granted more repentance in this area of The One God?
Time will tell...
John
But more than just patterned and promised, perhaps the most underappreciated facet is that Christ also is present. It’s surprising how explicit the New Testament authors are about Jesus’s presence in the Old Testament:
ReplyDeleteThe “I Am” in whom Abraham rejoiced was Jesus (John 8:56–58).
The Lord who motivated Moses was Christ (Hebrews 11:26).
The Redeemer who brought them out of Egypt was Jesus (Jude 5).
The Rock in the wilderness was Christ (1 Corinthians 10:4).
The King of Isaiah’s temple vision was the Son (John 12:40–41).
Jesus is not merely patterned and promised in the Old Testament; he is present. This is vital since the essential character of neither God nor faith has changed from the first covenant to the new. God has always worked in the Trinitarian pattern: from the Father, through the Son, by the Spirit. He did not begin to be triune — the Father did not begin to need a mediator — at Christmas (John 1:1–14). And faith has not changed fundamentally either. True faith does not merely resign itself to a divine plan, nor trust detached promises; faith embraces a promising Person.
Repeat after me:
ReplyDeletePack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God. Pack is God.
The answer to Yahshua's statement that no one has seen the Father is simple.
ReplyDeleteNo one has seen the Father's face in full glory. Moses only saw His back, but never His Face.
So glad Alex has shown courage in speaking out to the ministers and through the youtube video for the whole world to see.
ReplyDeleteI left the Perth, Australia congregation of RCG just 4 months ago volunteerily, over the prophesy series. I knew if I tried to say anything I would be kicked out pronto. Was there 12 years too long. Was starting to make me crazy. Thank God I woke up and was able to get out. Herbert Armstrong also said many things to the worldwide church that didn't come true. Praying for all the Armstrongists. True Christianity, living in God's grace and freedom, Christ's way, not David Pack's way is where our joy is.
John:
ReplyDeleteTry this: https://carm.org/bible-difficulties/has-anyone-seen-god-or-not/
When I last posted I was checking out the 'worlds churches' after coming out of RCG, I knew very little about them before RCG. To me, I can see now there is no hope there! We each have to find out where a bible teaching church is for ourselves. This has led me back to investigating another COG splinter instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Mr Herbert Armstrong's original teachings, I believe, are still the closest to what the bible says. Just wanted to say this so as to not discourage or mislead anyone from looking into other COG churches.
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