I have gone back and forth several times about commenting here. But, ultimately, I feel that I need to comment more than I care about what people think about the fact that I'm posting on this forum. You see, although I am no longer a part of Armstrongism, my family is and I love and respect them all and would hate to upset them. That being said, I can't remain silent.
When I read what LCG was doing to Sheldon Monson I was completely shocked. Not that LCG would over-react or be unfair, because that has come to be their standard method of operation, but that they would do this to Sheldon.
Reading about what they did to him has triggered so many emotions within me. Mr. Weston's letters literally create a physiological response within my being. The trauma that LCG inflicted upon me was the worst thing I have ever gone through and reading about Sheldon brought all that pain back up to the surface. I wonder if I will ever be completely free of it.
I know exactly how it feels to lose all your friends. I know how shocking it is to be going along, thinking everything will work out after being called into to HQ to "talk" only to be blindsided by the men at LCG headquarters a few days later. I know what it feels like to be shunned by friends that you truly loved with all of your heart only because the Presiding Evangelist tells them they can't associate you any more without risking their own security within the church or worse. I know what it feels like to find out you've been marked via a FedEx letter instead of a personal phone call or meeting. I know exactly how Sheldon Monson,his wife and his kids feel right now and it pains me.
My heart goes out to Sheldon and his wife and children who were as integrated into LCG as much as anyone could possibly be. This is a wound from which they will never fully recover. Sure, they will move on and hopefully they learn from this but one can never really be the same after being butchered by the high and mighty men at LCG.All of that aside, the comment that was burning within me so much that I ultimately decided to post on this forum, is in defense of Sheldon Monson.
I first met Sheldon and his wife when they were in ministerial training in Kansas City (2002 or 2003 I think). We became friends. He is a genuinely nice person. He is loving and sincere. He has a huge heart and is fun to be around. He loves God and is a talented speaker and excellent camp leader. More than anything he is genuine which is not a characteristic of minsters (or members) in LCG. Whether you liked it or not, he had the courage to be who he really was without pretense. In a church full of fake people, he had the bravery to be real. He was the same person to your face and behind your back. He was the same person whether he was with the COE or drinking beer with you on the back porch. Did I agree with everything he believed? Hell no! In fact I ardently disagreed with many of his beliefs. But I appreciated his candor, openness and courage to be who he is, like it or not. I loved that we could utterly disagree and openly debate topics and then continue to be friends. People like that are rare in this life. People like that are almost non-existent in Armstrongism. His reputation deserves to be defended. He's a good guy and Mr. Weston should be ashamed that he couldn't handle this situation more maturely with the Fruits of the Spirit.
I was shocked that hardly anybody had the courage to stand up and defend my husband and myself When LCG unjustly marked us. People who know our character sat in cowardly silence instead of saying something as they watched them destroy us and tell lie after lie about us. But guess what? I am not that person. I will defend those who deserve it. I will stand up when good people are brutalized by LCG headquarters. I will openly love those whom I chose to openly love and no man will ever have the authority to tell me who I can fellowship with. I am not afraid. I am ruled by God Almighty and not by the small, egocentric, insecure men that sell fear in an effort to control their members. I am free.Sheldon Monson was one of very few in LCG that went to bat defending my husband and my character repeatedly during my fiasco with LCG in 2014. After that, he continued to make a concerted effort to remain our friend and to show us out-flowing love and concern. He was the only minister in all of LCG that acted like a shepherd. The rest of LCG ministry scraped us off their shoes like dog poop. Even ministers that knew us as well as a person can possibly know another and that includes Gerald Weston. Mr. Weston knows us better than most. He counseled us for marriage prior to leaving KC and he baptized my husband. He has stayed at my home more times than I can count. We are very well acquainted. Yet he did nothing because he lacks the fortitude to do the right thing.
Sheldon was specifically told not to affiliate with my husband or me in 2014 but he refused to comply on the grounds that until we gave him a reason to believe we were bad people, he simply wouldn't cut us out of his life just because Rod Meredith told him to. if only more people in LCG thought like him! He continued to go out to dinner with us and check in on us even after the marking. One night we got busted by Jim Meredith who promptly ran to his daddy to tattle tail. When Rod Meredith called Sheldon up to his office the next day to ask if it was in fact true that he had gone out to dinner with us, he courageously said, "yes" and defended our character once again. That is the kind of character Sheldon Monson has. He is a stand-up guy.
Is he perfect? No. But who is?
I know that ultimately this will be one of the best things that ever happens to Sheldon, even though it might be insanely painful. It was for me. I saw the true character of people who called themselves my friends. I saw the true character of men pretending to be ministers of God. My eyes were opened to the nature of these people. I have found happiness and I have a connection with the Almighty that I could have never attained in a church that can not even begin to conceive of the love of God because they themselves only understand conditional love. I am love. The love of Christ flows abounds within me and fills my being. I have a connection to Source that no man can ever alter. He is mine and I am His. I wish the best to all who read this. Be real. I promise it's worth it.
PS: If you are in a "church" that tells you not to be friends with good people, you might be in a cult
PPS: I would like to personally thank every minister and member of LCG for setting me free through your harsh and unloving actions.
With Love & Light,
Elizabeth Scarborough
Ooray for Sheldon Monson! Anybody who can remain a human being after being in Armstrongism for so long deserves our love anf respect!
ReplyDeleteI am so sad to hear what happened to the Monsons.yet I am glad they are set free from LCG.i was removed from LCG 2 years ago it was sad, yet I have great peace now. I walk closer now to our Great God. I do hope to find a way to talk to Mr. monson
DeleteWhat happened to the Scarboroughs may have precipitated the fall of LCG. Just as Judas betrayed Christ, so did RM and his kow-towing minions do the same to them. It was a test on LCG heads and they failed miserably. No wonder they voted in a candidate (Weston) who is no better a leader, who is now choosing to side with the secular governor's orders while disowning the shepherds (the non-yes-men Monson and Fritts) who are responsible for feeding the flock. (Weston might have disfellowshipped the lay members instead had the government been on their side of the argument). Meredith's end was coming quickly after botching the Scarborough case. "You (Meredith) have been weighed in the balances and found deficient." (Dan 5:27)
ReplyDeleteCan you please elaborate on the the Scarborough situation? I don’t remember hearing about that.
DeleteAs former LCG member, I could not agree with you more that being free from LCG as a dictatorship is the best thing that could have happened to us. I am happy that Sheldon stood up to them for you, and understand the loyalty you give to him. I know he is a nice guy, but...and yes, there is a but, you have to remember Sheldon went along with this form of ungodly government until it failed to help him. For years he has sat in the council of elders getting a paycheck and thinking there is nothing wrong with the government of LCG. LCG believes that it goes God, Jesus, Westin. This is a wrong form of government. Ask Sheldon yourself if he believes in this form. Now, the problem is, his pride has overcome his so called lip service of faith, and has stepped out on his own, to what?? start his own Church? What is this accomplishing? Where does this now fit in, in his understanding of Church government...God the Father, Jesus, Sheldon?? How can all this be what God wants. It is wrong, and is not Godly. Following him is just as wrong, you are accepting this forum of thinking that has now clouded the mindset of all of those who have followed him. Both Sheldon and LCG are in the wrong.
ReplyDeleteWhat good is starting another splinter group? I have been in the Church for years, as has my family. We have seen these splinter groups. Where is it protecting the youth? IT DOESN'T!! It hurts them. Who do they to date or marry or have common ground with? There isn't anyone. Do not deny it...they start to look outside for it. Where is the in person fellowship? The very argument of meeting together in person in the first place has now failed, and everyone is back to Webcasting.
Now you know you were really in a cult. Your "friends" there were only fair weather friends. It sounds like Sheldon Monson was a friend who stuck closer than a brother. That kind of friend is truly rare and hard to find. Anyhow, welcome to the club.
ReplyDeleteWeston does not deserve being called Master, neither does any man. Look up the history of Mr.
ReplyDeleteThere needs to be , in every church, some type of "appeals board", made up of a jury of ones peers, for these types of issues, or perhaps a national type of "supreme court" that is like the SCOTUS which cannot be removed or intimidated.
ReplyDeleteThis top down hierarchy, no appeals system is fraught with problems in every type of organization. There has to be more than just one mans "feelings" or grudges etc. to make for any effective organization.
Ultimately, virtually all religious movements start from splits and daughter cells, so perhaps it is a natural and healthy thing for such things to occur for "survival of the species". In nature, most mutations fall or are not beneficial. Most business startups fail, and seldom survive more than a generation or two. However, without the "genetic drift" that new religious splits have, there would not be "new improved" upgrades to Christianity, and we would still be back doing the Latin Mass.
“ One night we got busted by Jim Meredith who promptly ran to his daddy to tattle tail.”
ReplyDeleteNow that shit of funny! I just had a visual of Lil Jimmy that was priceless.
I'm glad that you've come to know the love of Christ through your ordeal. It is well worth it for that. But, unfortunately for many, they only experience the hurt of the ordeal. Hierarchy between the Lord and believers is evil. The COGs might learn this, but then they would not be the COGs.
ReplyDeleteThe LCG did nothing to Sheldon Monson that Sheldon Monson did not bring upon himself. He forced himself into his firing. Why people are shocked that he was let go is beyond me. Gimme a break. As with any job, you either do it the company way or you don't work for the company. That's the reality anyone has always faced in any profession or organization sense Adam was created. Monson saying he was "terminated" from LCG employment smacks of "I was run out of town unwillingly". No, Sheldon, you forced their hand when you decided to dig your heels in on whatever you were disagreeing with them on. Why shouldn't they fire him? They had every right to fire him. Why would any company or organization want someone hanging around who is going to buck the rules? This whole "Mr. Monson was treated badly and unjustly" narrative is just crap. Period.
ReplyDeleteAnon 4:46 I guess I expected more from supposed men of God than you’re typical worldly Walmart management. Actually, a manager in a worldly organization would have probably handled this more humanely.
ReplyDeleteEven if we accept your “he deserves it” mentality, and accept the firing, how do you justify the disfellowshipping and subsequent marking? He lost his job. Wasn’t that enough? Or did he also deserve them twisting the knife?
You are everything that’s wrong with LCG. What about love, forbearance, peace, kindness, gentleness l, self control and mercy?
These men appear incapable of behaving in a Christian manor and so, it seems, are you.
Anon @ 7.27 PM,
ReplyDeleteIn everything there must be law and order. Nobody is above the law. What more in God's physical government. Get on board or ship out. Period. "Brotherly love, etc" notwithstanding.
True 4:46
ReplyDeleteHWA would sooo disagree with Monson as his entire philosophy centered around the principle that "freedom can only be freedom if at each action one thinks of the other first."
In defense of Monson, reading a 100 responses on this blog concerning his marking, "something may be rotten in the state of Denmark".
But I cannot accept the crap "Church warior vs State defense", I would have fired him in seconds if that is the case, which may just be a sideshow for larger issues. Just as a toga party can never be a sole reason for "marking".
Nck
I’m sorry but he wanted race segregation at a past camp during the dance. He had issues. I feel he should have been stripped of ministering the youth after trying the segregation thing. LCG didn’t act fast enough and probably gave him many chances. We don’t need people with that mentality around.
ReplyDeleteThis is false. Those orders came from the top (LCG Presiding Evangelist) & Mr. Monson was following orders. At the very same camp, he realized this was not right & issued a public apology...he does not believe in racial segregation.
Delete4.46 PM
ReplyDeleteExactly. The issue isn't one of moral principle but rather the application of Gods law. The "obeying God rather than man" defence is intellectually dishonest. The LCG considered the moral, legal, and publicity aspects of the situation and said no. Monsoon should have respected this. Everyone has a boss except God, and even then His "boss" are His responsibilities.
This is the problem common to ministers of every denomination. They often have no direct boss over them, so the concept of obeying a job superior, including the Bible and God, is foreign to them. They give endless sermons on obedience, but don't feel it applies to them.
This is why I admire the trait of pleasing other people that those who work at fast food counters or similar, have acquired.
Something foreign to so many bosses.
The comments of 4:46 demonstrates the wrong headed thinking that equates the ekklesia of God with an incorporated church system. I remember Rod Meredith years ago bragging about the "executive luncheons" he used to have with those in elevated positions among his "headquarters" staff, as well as those who would travel in from time to time. It was all hobnobbing, name dropping, etc. with little or no mention of Jesus Christ being involved at all. He was the CEO and president of his "company" or empire and this is how he talked about these things. This mindset is what created the situation we have in the churches today where men who disagree with those who think they rule the church can be fired, marked, and shunned by those who bow to the whims of the corporate church instead of doing their own homework and making a judgement themselves as to who to "take note of, and avoid."
ReplyDeleteAs a result of this scenario we have a bunch of men who call themselves ministers, who are not really guided by God or their own consciences, but instead tow the party line in order to climb the ministerial ladder, and survive within the system.
While lip service is occasionally paid to the body of Christ being a spiritual body that is not confined to a single human organization, the actions and behavior of many within these respective groups towards others is exactly the opposite. An interesting case in point is the subject of baptism. If I recall correctly HWA claimed to have been baptized by a Baptist preacher, and yet the validity of his baptism was never questioned, and he is hailed by many in these groups as an apostle, prophet, etc. Fast forward to today and many ministers within the COGs would automatically want to re-baptize someone who had been previously baptized by someone in another church. This would be the case even if the person had been fully immersed, had accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior, and in some cases even if the previous church had been another Sabbath keeping church. The actual fruits or growth of the individual are not taken into account, and baptism thus becomes some sort of mystical initiation ritual that makes you a member of that specific "church" rather than simply a symbol of repentance or commitment to growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ, even if lip service is given to say that the person is not being baptized into any human organization. The double standard and hypocrisy is self evident. If you come to view the body of Christ within the confines of the club you are a member of or the company who employs you, this is the result, and this is how a cult is born.
While some men do stand up within the system and end up leaving or being kicked out of the company, they often just turn around and reinvent the same wheel, because that's all they know. They adopt the same system, and think it will be better if they are the Minister in Chief, CEO, Pastor General, or whatever. Sooner or later the same issues return though and after the new wears off the daughter church begins to look a lot like her mother.
Concerned Sister
Oh Concerned Sister you allegedly get about alot.
DeleteYou write about knowing the inner bragging of Rod Meredith but it was only a few months back you wrote about socializing with Joel Meeker at the COGWA WFW.
And that wasn't true either.
Thank you for sharing Mrs. Scarborough.,
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting to see something through someone else's eyes.
I haven't really had any friends in Oklahoma cuz my family was not the "in crowd" plus I did not attend public school so did not share any of their interests so did not lose any friends when I quit.
Although my step-dad (I call him dad but anyways) has tried some guilting and bullying to lead me back to "God's true church" poppycock but who cares that's his problem not mine, other than the enduring it & I just leave if I need to (only to my room since I'm centrally blind so escaping by cars out lol
I'm very sorry for what you and your husband went through and I doubt it'll help but through your trial I learned that thanks to ecclesiastical laws in the usa I do not "ever" intend to belong to a church since you r a slave to that religious organizations rules & laws.
and while I'm VERY Sorry for what y'all went through I'm very grateful that what you shared of your experienced I know of from this site opened my eyes to the thought control all ACOG's use on there members.
I still keep as many of God's laws as I can (sadly 5th commandment the respect part of honoring my dad went out of my life 30+ years ago & still have panic attacks when it comes to listening to the bible) but I try and keep the sabbath & holydays according to God's calendar not man's.
Thanks again for everything :)
Stephen Schley
p.s. everyone should look up the airwolf patch picture which my eyes no longer can see but my minds eye can , it's an sheep's fleece being flung off an attacking wolfs head with bat wings...
I think of that image every time the wolf in sheep's clothing saying is used.
Anon 10:36 PM
ReplyDelete"I’m sorry but he wanted race segregation at a past camp during the dance. He had issues. I feel he should have been stripped of ministering the youth after trying the segregation thing..."
can you tell us more about that??? i've already heard about this thing, but never got more details.
It was during camp years ago, he wanted a dance for white kids and separate dances for kids of other races. A lot of camp counselors and attendees complained to LCG HQ and the idea was squashed. But this is a peek into how he thinks and what he believes. I know this is NOT how Christ thinks.
DeleteFalse information. You’re blaming the wrong person here... those orders were given from the LCG C-Suite & Mr. Monson followed orders. However, during that very same camp... he realized it was not right & issued a public apology at the podium. To this day, he feels so bad about that and is in no way supportive of racial segregation.
DeleteEven if we accept your “he deserves it” mentality, and accept the firing, how do you justify the disfellowshipping and subsequent marking? He lost his job. Wasn’t that enough? Or did he also deserve them twisting the knife?
ReplyDeleteHe wasn't marked until after he live-streamed his own Sabbath service in competition with LCG's. Most people fired by LCG don't set themselves up as alternative providers of Sabbath services. Sheldon left his ministerial authority behind when he left LCG, so setting himself up as a minister after being fired by his ministerial employer is indicative of a real problem in his approach, whatever wrongs he may have suffered at the hands of LCG. Remember, too, that as a COE member Sheldon was very happy to enforce LCG's wrongs on others until it was his own turn to submit and he refused.
To anon 4:46
ReplyDeleteSheldon claims he was following the rules Gerald had laid out for him but that they we’re switched. We will never know if that’s true. Let’s assume it’s not true for the sake of your argument (which is that he would not follow a rule implemented by his employer and therefore he deserved to be fired). Does that make him a bad person? Are you not allowed to disagree with anything and remain in the church? If so, does that seem normal to you? Is that not alarming? Could he not have been fired but remained a church member? Why cast him out of the body of Christ? Why mark him as an enemy of the church? The fact that that does not seem heavy handed to you is somewhat concerning.
I know Sheldon personally and he was a good minister who served the Living Church of God well for many years. I don’t care how you weigh it, the punishment did not fit the crime. Does not wanting to wear a mask warrant this insanely punishment? I don’t think so!. He’s still a good person who wants to serve God even if he doesn’t agree with masks. Mrs. Scarborough‘s post script is haunting me. Over the years, I have known several good people who my church has told me that I can no longer fellowship with. It just doesn’t seem right....
NCK Elizabeth Scarborough and her husband were marked after being accused of giving information that put LCG in a bad light to Bob Theil which he posted on COGWriter. Bob Theil called LCG headquarters to confirm that the Scarborough‘s were not his source for the information but LCG had already publicly marked them. Armed with the truth, one would think LCG would have admitted that they made a mistake but pride and ego would not allow for that. A couple of men on the Counsel of Elders argued to correct the mistake (Sheldon Monson and Doug Winnail) but in the end they thought it would make the church look weak to admit they had made such an error. Pope’s are infallible after all!
ReplyDeleteThe toga party happened years prior and had nothing to do with their marking.
It was about the publishing of information that the late Dibar Apartian no longer thought the Living Church of God was God’s true church.
5.43 AM
ReplyDelete"Could he not have been fired but remained a church member? Why cast him out of the body of Christ?"
A gifted minister who is fired on the basis of not following his employers orders can take some of the sheep with him, so casting him out is a wise precaution. Monsoons blood is on his own head for not following instructions. "We pay you, you do things our way." That was the contract.
No one has the power to cast a member out of the body of Christ since it's a spiritual organism. Perhaps he can join Dennis on this blog and write articles for our readers. Banned can become a de facto home for fired/disfellowshipped ministers.
So is Monson now the "GEORGE FLOYD" icon for the LCG ??
ReplyDeleteLooking at how LCG was formed tells you a lot about the organization.
ReplyDeleteThere are others. ICG, Father's Call, the Church of God Ministries International, and a great many more all have questionable foundings. Personally, I would avoid getting involved with any of them.
Peter denies Jesus thrice and is reprimanded many times, but is never cast aside. Munson doesn't want to enforce mask wearing and is marked. Many of the hierarchy types apparently think the LCG method is superior. They even cite how it is done in business, which is not necessarily true either.
ReplyDeleteLook, the COGs always do it this way. Theirs is a my way or the highway approach. They are just wrong, it's obvious.
Maybe Munson will more clearly see that it is the philosophy of Armstrongism that is the problem, not just the individuals in leadership. When the result is the same in all these organizations you've got to see it is the philosophy. Wake up...
British isrealism is racist through and through so in my determination anyone who believes in British isrealism is a racist.
ReplyDeleteNever mind that it has been scientifically and historically proven to be false.
Do Queen Elizabeth II is a racist in your woke opinion.
DeleteEarl excellent argument.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, your argument is lost on Armstrong-ites because they areny into the New Testament.
" A couple of men on the Counsel of Elders argued to correct the mistake (Sheldon Monson and Doug Winnail) but in the end they thought it would make the church look weak to admit they had made such an error. Pope’s are infallible after all! "
ReplyDeleteWow! That doesn't say much for Monson, he stayed in LCG collecting a paycheck knowing they were wrong.
"Never mind that it has been scientifically and historically proven to be false.
ReplyDeleteAugust 24, 2020 at 9:05 AM"
I'd be interested in that scientific and historical proof. Please don't give me the DNA/ h haplogroup bullshit because that proves nothing no matter how much one wishes it did.
I’m friends with a lot of LCG members on Facebook that are anti-mask. Are they all goo to be disfellowshipped and marked? Rules should apply to everyone.
ReplyDeleteThere is probably most likely more to the story than what is told...
Deletelike Paul Harvey...."stay tunned for the rest of the story😳😷
Even Christ threw out the money changers and over turned their tables, I'm sure if that was not Christ like, it wouldn't have been done...Even God abhors rebellion...that is not a fruit of the spirit...but nobody is perfect yet and we all need ask God for His help in being in tune to Him and to put every thought into captivity to Christ Jesus...which most are still learning to practice in that area, to much human nature to overcome...but may God grant all His creation to follow where God leads and not submit to their own thoughts and ways of which we were called out of...I sure know my ways and my thoughts weren't right...thank God for showing us were we err...God Bless your wslk With HIM...❤
11:58
ReplyDeleteThere is a "higher standard" for tbose in leadership positions. If an entire congregation refuses to abide with common sense rules as provided by the government, the leadership should cancel or disband the meeting.
Some generals cannot seperate themselves from policy, they are or should be the embodiment of policy.
Thats why Patton did not climb the DDay hierarchy and Macarthur was fired over the nuke china issue. They would not agree on policy.
Nck
Rubbish nck.
DeletePatton was too busy getting half the population of Dover pregnant to be bothered being Commander in Chief of D-Day.
So he was put with a pretend decoy invasion set up, to fool the Germans.
It's all about the politics even in WW2. Setting Eisenhower up as a President potential, doing deals with the Russians even before the war was won.
Same goes on today within the Ministry. Everything supposed to be about God, by men far from God.
Eisenhower led a coalition only united in its hate of fascism. So s diplomat warior was chosen to lead.
DeleteNck
I didn’t know that Elizabeth had completely left the church until reading this heartfelt letter. She certainly endured more scrutiny than most COG members. I was surprised she stayed as long as long as she did.
ReplyDelete5:18 says “Sheldon left his ministerial authority behind when he left LCG”
ReplyDeleteYour intellect is dizzying!
So please enlighten me, when the Rod of god Meredith left worldwide and started global did he lose his ministerial authority? How about when he left global to start living? Did his “ministerial authority” go with him? Or should he have been re-ordained? I’m super confused! So many ministers seem to be preaching without “ministerial authority” according to your perspective. And here I was thinking that ministers were ordained by God and not by corporate organizations. Silly me!
Thank you for your enlightening wisdom.
I do not know where exactly the orders for the segregation of the teens came from at the camp several years ago, but my understanding of the promoted policy as information given to me second hand from campers who attended that year was that the white teens would not be allowed to dance with teens of other ethnicities at the dances because it was reasoned that dancing in some circumstances might lead to dating, and the church did not want to promote interracial dating or marriage notions among the teens at the camp. This policy was met with wide spread resistance by the campers and some of the staff who basically said that if that was going to be the policy, that they would not attend the dance period. According to my understanding it was the resistance of the campers that led to the change in policy. I was not personally there, so do not have first hand information of the other details, but this is what I was told happened.
ReplyDeleteThere is still a sizable number of people within the cogs who are uncomfortable and some down right hostile to the idea of interracial dating or marriage, even between Christians of like faith. This of course cannot in any way shape or form be backed up Biblically without cherry picking and twisting scripture, but never the less it still rears it's ugly head from time to time. The young people are paying less and less attention to it though, and there is interracial dating and marriage that goes on from time to time within some of the groups. I do not personally know what Monson's stance on this is, but I do know that in subsequent years the young people were not segregated at the dances and were allowed to mix and mingle freely with each other, as it should be.
Concerned Sister
The Living Church of God has left a wake of sad, broken people in their wake. “What would Jesus do?” is definitely not something they concern themselves with.
ReplyDeleteThe order to segregate dancing came straight from Charlotte. Meredith and others always dispsied seeing whits dancing with blacks and other races.
ReplyDeleteThe order to segregate dancing came straight from Charlotte. Meredith and others always dispsied seeing whits dancing with blacks and other races
ReplyDeleteAre you sure? Meredith let his youngest daughter marry a brown/Mexican guy.
It’s always a do as I say not as I do scenario. The council of elder dork on the west coast for LCG let his daughter marry a Puerto Rican while forbidding a black guy from marrying a white woman.
DeleteAnon 2:18 PM said "Are you sure? Meredith let his youngest daughter marry a brown/Mexican guy."
DeleteTechnically, Mr. Sena has said many times that he is half Mexican (his mother is white). Additionally he rejects his Mexican roots, the Mexican people and the Spanish language in favor of being a Meredith.
Just had to comment on this. The "council of elder dork" was like a 2nd father to me while I was in LCG (2002-2006). That said, I did find it fairly hypocritical that he let his daughter marry (who was a good friend of mine) a dark-skinned Puerto Rican while forbidding my former close friend (who is black) from marrying his white wife. It's one of the many reasons I finally left the Armstrong system.
DeleteFrom what we heard, she did not have much choice.
ReplyDeleteElizabeth: thanks for deciding to comment. I've prayed for your family and I'm glad to hear you are doing so well! I think the reason you were led to make a post was to help others who have left or are contemplating leaving a church. It is helpful for them to know there is abundant life on the other side.
ReplyDeleteArmstrongism is fundamentally racist.
ReplyDeleteAny religion that claims white peoples are favored by God (which is what BI teaches) is not of God.
There is so much that is unloving about this religion.
As soon as the old WCG people die it will be extinguished. Younger people don’t typically buy into this kind of crap.
Elizabeth I am glad you have found freedom. I know you. You never seemed to fit. You were too curious and asked too many questions. You were too outspoken, outgoing and too loving. Your light was WAY too bright to ever survive in any of the Armstrong splinters.
They did everything they could to try to extinguish your light but I’m happy to see that you are as strong as ever. I hope your story encourages others who are flirting with their own freedom from this hateful religion.
I am happy you are free from their oppressive tyranny and that you now see these organizations for the mind-controlling, hateful, miserable cults they are. Christ is nowhere in Armstrongism. They wouldn’t know Him if He was standing right next to them.
I wish you the very best.
I’ll bet Ol’ Jerry Weston wishes he had buried the hatchet with this woman. She has been a thorn in his side for much longer than he predicted!
ReplyDeleteLCG has over-played their hand. They forget that members know and love the people they’re marking. Members question a little more each time they do it. In their effort to tighten control, they find themselves losing it. Their credibility is rock bottom at this point.
ReplyDeleteConcerned Sister...can you contact me at no2hwa @ yahoo.com (without the spaces). I have someone who wants to get in contact with you.
ReplyDeleteCan someone please explain how a swinger in Kansas City is ordained (post swinging and being caught and post baptism) and how a married woman employed at LCG HQ who was busted committing serial adultery with another married LCG HQ employee are still in the church with good positions but Mr. Monson lost his for thinking masks are stupid (which 50% of the world and LCG members agree with)? Just curious. Thanks.
ReplyDeletePhil Sena is not dark skinned!
ReplyDelete@ 12:32 PM, the serial adulteress has a skill-set that makes her invaluable to LCG. She couldn't be replaced easily if they fired her, and LCG might have to hire two or three employees to replace her. The guy she got caught committing adultery with, however, was not just expendable but was already the political target of another LCG manager who wanted to take over his job.
ReplyDeleteYou shouldn't be surprised at this, as it's what would happen at the vast majority of successful businesses. The only problem is if you expect LCG to be run like a church instead of a business.
Notice that Sheldon Monson did not stand up against Meredith's decisions in how to handle this matter. He was willing to lose his job over masks, but not over actual commandment breaking. This tells me that masks weren't his real issue.
12.32 PM
ReplyDeleteBecause what Mr Monson did could get the church sued by family members and prosecuted by the government.
2:13 you are completely wrong about the legality of the issues. A lot of businesses much larger than the rinky dink LCG (like entire grocery chains) aren’t enforcing masks and nobody has filed a lawsuit yet. And if they did, they would lose. Also LCG has insurance for such things but it would never come to that. It would be impossible to prove that church was where a person contracted Covid for one and for two it has a 99% survival rate so I’m not sure what the “damages” would be.
ReplyDelete5.55 PM
ReplyDeleteMost ACOG members are elderly and hence vulnerable to death by COVID. These churches do not have the financial resources to fight off law suits by family members.
For many members, the only time that they leave home is to attend services. So they can claim with justification that they contracted the virus at services.
For the record, high risk elderly shouldn’t be going to church regardless of masks. Any 2 cent lawyer would argue that they voluntarily participated when online options were available to them. I’ve heard a lot of LCG people using this lawsuit excuse to make the whole thing make sense in their minds. Because, honestly, firing a man who has served the church so well for nearly 20 years over masks for a very temporary “pandemic” can’t make sense to them any other way.
ReplyDeleteRe - Monson directed segregated dances in accordance with Meredith, but then apologized.
ReplyDeleteAt the time my kids at camp appreciated his character in taking an unpopular position. We did not agree with the apology. The Bible is plain with respect to race and interracial marriage, which is one of the reasons brainwashed, amoral modernists reject it. They also become inflamed with anger at the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality and the other extreme manifestations of the perversion. Many of these miscreant rabble self-absorbed morons also refer to the Bible by the vacuous term "hate speech".
Re-the modern application of 'racism'. Only fools harbor sensitivity toward the overused and misapplied term.
Re - on masks.
The governments have no constitutional authority to enforce mask wearing. That said, they do it anyway. Is it wise to do so? Maybe. Biblically, quarantine laws are very plain in guarding against the spread of communicable disease.
Re-the idiotic comment concerning the descendants of the twelve tribes. Agree with another that the DNA "science" is fake propaganda intended to arrive at a determined outcome. The Bible is plain on the matter, and coupled with historical evidence, leaves no doubt to a reasonable mind that the modern descendents inhabit western Europe and the english speaking nations of the earth.
2:14 PM wrote:
ReplyDeleteThe governments have no constitutional authority to enforce mask wearing.
This is one of the big problems in the ACOGs today. American COG members think the Constitution is some kind of sacred document as if it were the Bible. American ACOG members forget that Romans 13 applies in a totalitarian dictatorship just as much as it applies in a constitutional republic. It even applies when a constitutional republic is abandoning its heritage and becoming a totalitarian dictatorship. If the government compels you do do something inconvenient and offensive but not against God, Romans 13 says to comply. To say "I rebel against the government based on my understanding of the Constitution" is to put the authority of the Constitution higher than the authority of the Bible, which tells you to obey the ruler whether or not he is acting according to some document.
Monson directed segregated dances in accordance with Meredith, but then apologized.
ReplyDeleteThe very definition of a hireling. Monson was willing to ignore his conscience for money, and to promote LCG even when he knew it was wrong. But when the money stopped coming, he stopped promoting LCG and started doing his own thing.
If he wasn't a hireling, he wouldn't have left LCG as soon as his paycheck disappeared. The clear pattern is that these men take money from Meredith or Weston, ignore their consciences because it's a cushy arrangement, then suddenly rediscover their consciences when the LCG money runs out. I think the independently wealthy Davy Crockett may be the only one of the dozens of LCG employees who have quit or been fired who has stayed active in LCG. Mostly they are hirelings.
Yes DNA is super fake wow
ReplyDeleteLCG did Dave Crockett just as dirty as they do everyone else. LCG is incapable of kindness compassion or fairness. Mr. Crockett KNOWS how corrupt HQ is but yet he still supports the church. I’ll never understand. Maybe it’s the battered wife syndrome.
ReplyDeleteMr. Crockett KNOWS how corrupt HQ is but yet he still supports the church. I’ll never understand.
ReplyDeleteDavy Crockett and Jeff Fall each think of themselves as co-founders of Global/Living with Dr. Meredith. They were the two earliest ministers to join Global (Don Davis wasn't a minister until Meredith ordained him in Global), and back then RCM was still talking about "collegiality" in a way that flattered these two wealthy elders (one a wealthy dentist, the other a wealthy insurance man) to think of themselves almost as Meredith's peers. Because of their wealth, Meredith encouraged them to feel that way, and I'm sure Weston knows that if he ever went too far in mistreating these two earliest elders they could divide the church far more than Monson could ever dream of.
"Re-the idiotic comment concerning the descendants of the twelve tribes. Agree with another that the DNA "science" is fake propaganda intended to arrive at a determined outcome. The Bible is plain on the matter, and coupled with historical evidence, leaves no doubt to a reasonable mind that the modern descendents inhabit western Europe and the english speaking nations of the earth.
ReplyDeleteAugust 26, 2020 at 2:14 PM"
The problem is that "science" had no interest in proving or disproving British Israelism no matter how much the dissenters wish that were true. DNA proves nothing except to those who have preconceived bias. The propaganda is not from science but from anti-cog bias!
The bias against BI is the belief that since most Jews today and most people from the Levant are of haplogroups J and E1b1b, then Jacob had to have been of one of those two haplogroups. That simply is not true.
There is an ancient R haplogroup in the Levant which most other R haplogroups stem from, but the anti-BI folk refuse to acknowledge the possibility that Jacob was of the R haplogroup and some of his descendents mixed in with the predominant J and E1b1b haplogroups of the area.
I've saod it before, I'll say it again, DNA neither proves nor disproves BI!
"To say "I rebel against the government based on my understanding of the Constitution" is to put the authority of the Constitution higher than the authority of the Bible, which tells you to obey the ruler whether or not he is acting according to some document.
ReplyDeleteAugust 26, 2020 at 5:56 PM"
I see that you're too dumb to understand that the goverments of this world are the beast of the bible and church government is the image of the beast with a final conglomerate at the end of the age.
The reason the bible says to obey those who rule over you isn't because God wants us to always obey man's government but that obedience keeps you from getting into trouble with the rulers and society in general.
Whether you like it or not there's always a time that disobedience to government is necessary. Like the apostles preaching Christ when they were ordered not to.
By your reasoning the beast of Revelation should be followed "because the bible says to obey the ruler". That's just...
I'm not defending not wearing masks, I'm just pointing out your ignorance of the facts!
Anon 5:56,
ReplyDeleteWe have a constitutional republic and laws and decisions must abide by our Constitution to be valid. A policy by the government outside of that is not valid and is to be viewed as no policy at all.
We have a government of by the people. It is an overthrow of our government to do that which is against the Constitution.
Besides, I believe he was really speaking about the Roman government as if you were not aggressive against it you could generally live in peace. That is not true for all governments as often rulers have been "a terror" to good works. You cannot extend this verse to Pol Pot, Hitler, etc. as that would be evidence that the Bible is incorrect. Too much painting with a broad brush regarding passages in the Bible. It dilutes the wisdom of the Bible.
Check out all the ancient R haplogroups.
ReplyDeletehttps://indo-european.eu/ancient-dna/ancient-y-dna-haplogroups/
BI is easily refutable. All it really takes is about 30 minutes of research using non Armstrong literature (ie scientific, archaeological evidence and information). There's a great article on Exit and Support (https://exitsupportnetwork.com/british-israelism-true-or-false/) and then there's always Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Israelism).
ReplyDeleteOf interest are all the other peoples who also think they are decedents (but aren't).
"BI is easily refutable."
ReplyDeleteBull shit! It's neither easily proved nor refuted. If one were to be honest they'd just say "I don't know" and "who cares".
The ones who do care are the ones making a religion and thus a living from it, and those who hate everything Armstrong.
Dennis, you are seeing for yourself in this thread how easy it is for people to hold on to unscientific reasoning. Remember, these are the same people who have convinced themselves that the United States somehow "is Manasseh" even though the nation's largest ancestry group (as has been the case since colonial times) is of German ancestry, not English. Just see how those crafty Assyrians have bamboozled the Church of God into thinking they are Manasseh!
ReplyDeleteBull shit! It's neither easily proved nor refuted. If one were to be honest they'd just say "I don't know" and "who cares".
ReplyDeleteBI is easily refuted if you have even a smidgen of understanding of DNA findings. Or, let's put it another way. If the USA is Manasseh and Britain is Ephraim, and Germany is Assyria, then God must be doing a Tower of Babel-like work in scrambling people's DNA to hide the plain truth that only the ACOGs can discern.
And you can't say "who cares" and remain in Armstrongism. If Germany is not Assyria, and the USA isn't Manasseh, this makes HWA's prophetic timelines a load of obvious rubbish.
It comes down to where you place your trust. Do you trust thousands upon thousands of expert scientists? If there were a shred of truth to BI, surely at least ONE genetic scientist would publish those findings and maybe even find his way to an ACOG. Or do you trust an unemployed PR guy who found in J.H. Allen's BI exposition a great "hook" for a unique message in pre-WWII America? Or do you trust your own brain to evaluate the evidence for yourself.
How is it, for instance, that the German-majority USA is "Manasseh" when several other nations with majorities of English emigres are NOT Manasseh? Or maybe the British Empire is Manasseh, but then why is the USA Ephraim when there are so many other British-majority nations that are better candidates to be Ephraim? All of the BI stuff is speculation, while DNA shows plainly the connections between different populations around the world, and it doesn't support HWA's version of BI.
Anon 707,
ReplyDeleteHow exactly would you prove it? The evidence refuting it is much stronger than the evidence proving it. But, if you are starting from a point that BI is a legitimate theory then the standard in proving refutation is heightened. But, if you are starting from the bottom and trying to show BI is true you have a mighty uphill slog with vast evidence against the effort.
Obviously 5:24am is NEO with his misunderstanding of what DNA proves and doesn't prove. Show me one scientist/geneticist who is even contemplating BI in his/her work.
ReplyDeleteThis comment is just stupid:
"If there were a shred of truth to BI, surely at least ONE genetic scientist would publish those findings and maybe even find his way to an ACOG."
You are trying to pass off the idea that a group of related people can't have various haplogroups, that's plain bullshit and you know it. Just look at those who claim to be Jews (I'm not questioning whether they are or not) they have many various haplogroups with many various SNP's and they are all related.
You want BI to be untrue so much that you blind yourself with hate.
Why would I want to be an Armstrongite? That means that I "CAN" say "who cares" and still be a sabbath and feast keeper, and still see the possibility that BI might be true. BI being true or not will not stop prophecy from happening. Armstrong used it to grow his business.
All of you anti-everything Armstrong, even though some of what he taught is biblical, are pathetic! You remind me of the anti-Trump crowd. They defend the rioters, they falsely place the covid outcome on Trump, though there's no way to prove they'd have handled it any better, the evidence is there that they'd have handled it worse since they were against restricting travel. They blame the post covid lock down economy on Trump, when they would lock it down even longer. They are a bunch of self serving morons and so are those who hate everything Armstrong. They hate because it makes them feel better. Sad, and pitiful!
Earl, did you not read what I said? I said it's not easily proved, nor is it easily disproved. Except by fools who need to make turning their back on everything they once believed feel better.
ReplyDeleteEarl, what's the evidence against it? Again, don't give me the DNA bullshit because DNA does not prove anything since we don't know Jacob's haplogroup!
ReplyDelete"All of the BI stuff is speculation, while DNA shows plainly the connections between different populations around the world, and it doesn't support HWA's version of BI."
ReplyDeleteBullshit! Have you even looked at where ancient R haplogroup can be found? In the Levant, right where Abraham's ancestry stems from. You have to deny the evidence that science has found if you deny this.
So, since the ancient R haplogroup can be found in the central asian steppes and in the Levant, it's possible that Abraham was R haplogroup. There are Jews today who still have the ancient R haplogroup not the modern R1 or R2 of Europe.
R1b in the Bronze age Levant
ReplyDeletehttps://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/04/r1b-m269-in-bronze-age-levant.html
I find it interesting that in the comment section of the above link that a "joke" from drago reads:
ReplyDelete"Drago said...
The only logical explanation is that Jews are Celtic
April 22, 2019 at 6:14 AM"
But, what if it isn't a joke?
All this DNA bickering.
ReplyDeleteHWA provided the key by saying that if he delivered a message to an elite or the leader, the message had been delivered to the nation.
So what part of germans need to be "assyrian" in order to qualify as such.
Suppose only the New England rulkng class of the USA like the Bush family or the Kennedy's were Mannasah, as most US presidents carry European royal dba, would that qualify the USA to be inheritors of the blessings, despite of all the gentiles dwelling among them, perhaps even a majority?
Nck
No bickering here, just presenting facts.
ReplyDeleteAncient R haplogroup:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/jewish-r-m124/about/background
I found another interesting site where they are at least willing to admit the possibility that the original Jews might have been haplogroup R and not J. The only point that I'm making is "who knows?" !!!
ReplyDeleteA quote from the comment section of the following link:
"What is more important to me is the presence of R groups in Cohen Jews. The time to the common ancestor is older than that of J group Jews. Someone said it was due to migrants to the Jews' ancestors. Maybe. It could be that the R group is just older than the J group in Jewish people and that the J group were the migrants."
https://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/08/finally-updated-look-at-y-chromosomes.html
DNA and genetics does not refute BI no matter how much one wishes that were so! They don't prove it either. It's all speculation!
I know a lot of Armstrong people don't believe in sciences like archaeology, geology, astronomy, biology, genetics, etc (what did I miss?) so there is no point even attempting a discussion with them.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the church is mostly poor, white and uneducated so BI feels really good to them because it makes them special.
Rule number one of cults is to make the followers feel special, chosen and better than those not "called". Check.
It seems it's only the more extreme ACOGs (like Living, Flurry and Pack) that still preach BI. The others haven't denied it per se but they stopped preaching it or giving it any attention because they know it makes them look uninformed in a world where knowledge is so readily accessible. Thank you internet.
I'm snow white. I had Ancestry.com do my genealogy. I've got zero ashkenazi, sephardic or arab in my DNA.
ReplyDeleteTo those in favor of BI, please explain how this works.
Thanks.
6:00
DeleteYou are a gentile son of Shem, Asshur perhaps maybe not.
Most of the ancient Icelandic men were Norse, the ladies were mostly Gaellic, either raided, traded or who knows........ Love.
Nck
This is interesting. This tribe has kept their DNA clean from not inter-breeding with the locals. There was a documentary on PBS about them that was quite compelling (don't tell Herbbie!)
ReplyDeletehttps://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/israel/familylemba.html
https://www.nytimes.com/1999/05/09/us/dna-backs-a-tribe-s-tradition-of-early-descent-from-the-jews.html
ADVISORY WARNING: If you are an Armstrongite and desire to maintain your cognitive dissonance - DO NOT WATCH
5:56am I've given you several links where science has acknowledged that the previous view of Jews originally being haplogroup J or E1b1 is possibly in error. Who's the uneducated one here? You seem to be educated enough to use Saul Alinsky's rules for radicals in your post. Paint your opponent as ignorant, uneducated, etc.
ReplyDeleteSaul would be proud of you!
6:07am Hilarious! You can't see the assumptions made in your links? The first assumption is that the cohanim/kohen who claim to be the Jewish priests (kohen is Hebrew for priest) are truly the Levites of the bible. Assumption, pure assumption! How do they know that they're not descendents of the priests of Baal? Same Hebrew word, kohen.
ReplyDeleteThe next assumption is that the Jews of today are really the Israelites of the bible. I don't know, neither do they!
As I said, it's impossible to prove the theory either way. If you deny this it's you who deny science!
Anon,
ReplyDeleteMy primary point is that you have very limited evidence beyond the supposition for BI. I'm asking you, without any armstrongism included, what evidence would lead you starting from scratch to believe BI is true (not whether the arguments against it are airtight)?
Would you find historical evidence, linguistic evidence, archeological evidence, and DNA evidence teaching against BI such that you would be lead to believe that the nations of Europe are most likely not of the lost 10 tribes rather than believing that they are?
Proof is an incredibly high standard, what would you believe to be true starting from scratch? Would any of the evidence have led you to even consider BI?
The only acceptable proof is dna extracted from "bones from the biblical time period" compared to early 19th century bones.
ReplyDeleteNever in BI theory it is stated that the "Israelites" in for instance "Finland or England" should be a majority in those nations in order to be a recipient of "abrahams blessings".
It's a huge mistake to state that because the USA has generals like "Schwartzkopf" or "Eisenhauer", it can't be the recipient of blessings bestowed upon Mannasah.
BI is such a powerful theory that it is daily disputed on the major news channels every day every hour.
Only under different names and labels like, "MAGA", or "Structural racism".
Nck
I was an LCG member for years, and in WCG before that. I could write a book about the evils I witnessed and I experienced as a blind man. Regarding Sheldon Monson: he and Michael Elertson both were heavily bribed to remain in LCG as ministers wen the Enduring Church O God got going. Ravid hirelings, indeed, both of them, and of the very worst sort! They along with Eng Monson were all pumpe up and going to confront LCG's hq, with a list of their doctrinal and church concerns. As they put it: "There'lll be some changes around here!" again, another book. Well, at the end of that weekend Eng and Sheldon came away from LCG hq not speaking to each other. sheldon made some very serious personal and church-related compromises to remain in LCG, and yes he was bribed with a chunky bonus, an increase in his paycheque, help with car and house, etc, and an ultimatum from his wife. Both Sheldon Monson and Mike Elertson are couardly bullies and hirelings. elertson had actually left LCG and held a Sabbath service in ECOG as their minister. He assumed that he would be the head of Mr. Bryce's impending work in Canada, that is until he himself was all too easily bribed back into LCG by Gerald Weston and Meredith. So, within two weeks both Elertson and Sheldon Monson went from tough guys, professing to stand up against LCG, to becoming like ravid dogs on leashes in LCG again, with the LCG "leadership" holding their leashes. It was portrayed publicly by those concerned as just a routine visit to HQ for some standard doctrinal brush-up. So, sheldon Monson's severe compromises and the heavy and very tangible bribes he took go a long way to explaining his LCG malaise and present actions. Hireling, indeed.
ReplyDelete"My primary point is that you have very limited evidence beyond the supposition for BI."
ReplyDeleteEarl,
Exactly, which has been my point all along. You are reading into my comments that I believe there's sufficient proof for BI. Go back and reread everything that I've said, I've never said that. I said that it's impossible to prove and disprove it. DNA does not disprove BI no matter how much the anti everything Armstrong wishes that were true.
Would I not have come to the conclusion that BI could be possible without HWA? Who knows? There are people in the UK who believe it possible who've never heard of HWA.
J.H. Allen came to that conclusion without the help of HWA and so have many others.
All I'm saying is that it's poosible, I'm not saying it's probable. Who knows? Who cares?
I just get tired of those saying that DNA debunks BI when it clearly does not. They have to assume Jacob's haplogroup to come to that conclusion and whether the majority of Jews today are J or E1b1 doesn't prove that that's what Jacob was!