The Living Dead
By
Lonnie Hendrix/Miller Jones
Those who leave the Armstrong Churches of God (or are disfellowshipped) are often regarded by those who remain as the living dead. It is like the two hunters who shoot a deer and watch it continue to run for a few more feet. “He’s already dead,” one hunter comments. “Yep, he just doesn’t know it yet,” the other agrees.
A person who was formerly regarded as a friend and brother suddenly becomes persona non grata. Last Sabbath, he was one of God’s saints; and, today, he is the servant of Satan. Oh sure, some of the saints have convinced themselves that it is an act of love to reject the person. They tell themselves that they have rejected this person for their own good, so that they will repent and come back into the fold. Never mind, that that almost never happens.
“I still believe in Jesus Christ,” is not accepted. “I haven’t left God’s Church,” doesn’t work either. “No man has the authority to remove me from God’s Church or rescind my salvation,” falls on deaf ears.
It’s like the farmer who happens up on an overturned car full of used car salesmen and proceeds to dig a hole and bury vehicle and all. “Were any of them still alive?” an incredulous bystander asks him. “Well,” the farmer replies, “a couple of them said they were still alive, but you know you can’t believe a word those people say!”
And it’s especially wrenching when one leaves behind family members – when the person doing the shunning is a parent, spouse, child or sibling. To say that it is hurtful or soul-destroying to come to the realization that you aren’t as important to your loved one as the Church, doesn’t seem to do justice to the emotion that the one who has been abandoned is feeling. On the other side, the thinking is something like this: “I might as well get used to doing without them – After all, they’re NOT going to be in God’s Kingdom!”
If it wasn’t so heartbreaking, one would be tempted to laugh at the twisted reasoning, and the perversion of love. But it is sad - extremely sad. And too many people have experienced this pain.
And the loved ones that stay in the COG’s and are ‘on the fence’, are then paralyzed by fear because their ministers will keep reminding them about the lake of fire etc .. So the tiny bit of courage they had, making them think about leaving as well, quickly disappears.
ReplyDeleteI have seen that happen firsthand. After I left our minister was on the phone to my loved ones almost every day, talking about ‘the truth’ and how I would end up. And in the end they told me that they didn’t want to talk to me anymore .. The pain will always be there.
I’m sure that there are a lot of people like me out there, people that had the courage and sense to leave. As I am sure that there are a lot of people still in the COG’s that WANT to leave but are held hostage by fear ..
The trademark of abusive cults..
Fine article. We humans have been driven mad by religion. And we all suffer. Yet David recognised that God desires not burnt offering or sacrifice. It must be from within the heart that change must come if we are to love our brothers as ourselves. The COGS have nothing to offer humanity except more of the same old same. Perhaps they are the ones driven mad by religion.
ReplyDeleteThe other thing is that many members believe that as long as they attend a church, they are qualifying for the kingdom. Which isn't the case since the behavior of many members is no better, and sometimes worse than unconverted outsiders.
ReplyDeleteThe holy spirit told me to not attend any ACOG church, and I can't be the only one.
Some of the most awful people I have ever met are in the pcg, yet they fill a seat every week so they are righteous and exempt from what they preach happens to those who leave or are booted out at some mans whim.
DeleteThough out because of masks? What's next? Wearing the wrong color socks? If this is not an example of abuse of authority, then I don't know what else it could be. The churches that follow this should consider what Yahshua said about losing one sheep, in that He would leave the other 99 to search out and bring back the 'lost' sheep.
ReplyDeleteThe cogs teaching is the exact opposite of this. To them, the lost sheep is on his own and is now held and controlled by Satan. Not so at all, as Yahshua plainly states that the good shepherd leaves the majority and proceeds to search out the wandering sheep.
These so called ministers should seriously read and study Zech.11 for it has much to say about the current day actions of churches that maintain that they belong to Yahshua. Sadly, their actions say otherwise.
don't know of any cases like you present here....I can only speak of personal experience and those we've known that left tend to be the ones that pull away.
ReplyDeletewe've always kept the lines open, but eventually realize that the only communication we have with them is when we initiate it...so they drift away never to be heard from again.
in reality, they do leave God's Church (IF they were ever really in it to start with) by convincing themselves that they can remake it into something they are comfortable with.
it's called self deception.
It is heartbreaking!
ReplyDeleteSome do genuinely worry and suffer anxiety about (some of) "us" if they are not completely turned into machines.
It's like Prime Minister Johnson, suddenly expressing his worries about the (magic and cooperation of the) Union of the United Kingdom, with Northern Ireland contemplating joining Ireland and Scotland leaving the UK and rejoining the EU.
The only response to his worries is, that I started worrying about the UK the moment Boris Johnson became elected through (economic, political, journalistic and many other) lies and trickery.
A matter of perspective I guess.
nck
For some reason they seem to think that the church is God and God is the church. Unfortunately the spouse not in, is the one that feels the loss and all the other emotions that go with it.
ReplyDeleteDown and down the rabbit hole fell Alice.
ReplyDeleteJesus Christ knows those who are His. So why all the angst? Why not live how you want.
Since when do believers worry about the deceitful ones that dwell amongst them. They've had their day, are ancients of days and are running on empty.
It is a pathetic practice. However, the bottom line problem with it all is that it taught plainly in the New Testament. It evidently leaves Apostles and Pastors the leeway to administer it as they see fit. It goes along with Paul's belief that avoiding division demands the group all speak the same thing. That's the nature of groups.
ReplyDeleteOne can bemoan all the stupidity of the healing doctrine they want and how it is administered or how to actually practice when a push comes to a shove in one's health. But it is taught plainly in the New Testament Church as to what to do James 5:14. The problem is Iron Age medical advice is not the only truth in the Space and Medical Science Age
https://www.learnreligions.com/what-the-bible-says-about-church-discipline-701954
"The Bible teaches the correct way to deal with sin in the church. In fact, Paul gives us a succinct picture of church discipline in 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15: "Take note of those who refuse to obey what we say in this letter. Stay away from them so they will be ashamed. Don't think of them as enemies, but warn them as you would a brother or sister." (NLT)
What Is Church Discipline?
Church discipline is the biblical process of confrontation and correction carried out by individual Christians, church leaders, or the entire church body when a member of Christ's body is involved in a matter of open sin. Some Christian denominations use the term excommunication instead of church discipline to refer to the formal removal of a person from church membership. The Amish refer to this practice as shunning.
When Is Church Discipline Necessary?
Church discipline is meant specifically for believers involved in overt sin. Scripture gives particular emphasis to Christians engaged in matters of sexual immorality, those creating discord or strife between members of the body of Christ, those spreading false teachings, and believers in outspoken rebellion to the spiritual authorities appointed by God in the church.
Why Is Church Discipline Necessary?
God desires his people to be pure. He calls us to live holy lives, set apart for his glory. 1 Peter 1:16 restates Leviticus 11:44: "Be holy, because I am holy." (NIV) If we ignore blatant sinfulness within the body of Christ, then we fail to honor the Lord's call to be holy and live for his glory.
We know from Hebrews 12:6 that the Lord disciplines his children: "For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives." In 1 Corinthians 5:12-13, we see that he passes this responsibility on to the church family: "It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning. God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, 'You must remove the evil person from among you.' " (NLT)
con't
con't
ReplyDeleteAnother vital reason for church discipline is to maintain the testimony of the church to the world. Unbelievers are watching our lives. We are to be a light in a dark world, a city set on a hill. If the church looks no different than the world, then it loses its witness.
While church discipline is never easy or desirable (what parent enjoys disciplining a child?) it is necessary for the church to fulfill its God-intended purpose on this earth.
The Purpose
The goal of church discipline is not to punish a failing brother or sister in Christ. On the contrary, the purpose is to bring the person to a point of godly sorrow and repentance, so that he or she turns away from sin and experiences a fully restored relationship with God and other believers. Individually, the intent is healing and restoration, but corporately the purpose is to build up, or edify and strengthen the entire body of Christ.
The Practical Pattern
Matthew 18:15-17 clearly and specifically sets forth the practical steps for confronting and correcting a wayward believer.
First, one believer (usually the offended person) will meet individually with the other believer to point out the offense. If the brother or sister listens and confesses, the matter is resolved.
Second, if the one-on-one meeting is unsuccessful, the offended person will attempt to meet with the believer again, taking with him one or two other members of the church. This allows the confrontation of sin and resulting correction to be confirmed by two or three witnesses.
Third, if the person still refuses to listen and change his behavior, the matter is to be taken before the entire congregation. The whole church body will publicly confront the believer and encourage him to repent.
Lastly, if all attempts to discipline the believer fail to bring change and repentance, the person will be removed from the fellowship of the church.
Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 5:5 that this final step in church discipline is a way of handing the unrepentant brother "over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord." (NIV) So, in extreme cases, it is sometimes necessary for God to use the devil to work in a sinner's life to bring him to repentance.
The Correct Attitude
Galatians 6:1 describes the correct attitude of believers when exercising church discipline: "Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself." (NLT)
Gentleness, humility, and love will guide the attitude of those who wish to restore a fallen brother or sister. Spiritual maturity and submission to the Holy Spirit's leading are needed, too.
Church discipline should never be entered into lightly or for minor offenses. It is a very serious matter calling for extreme care, godly character, and a true desire to see a sinner restored and the purity of the church maintained.
When the process of church discipline brings about the desired result—repentance—then the church must extend love, comfort, forgiveness, and restoration to the individual (2 Corinthians 2:5-8)."
More Church Discipline Scriptures
Romans 16:17; 1 Corinthians 5:1-13; 2 Corinthians 2:5-8; 2 Thessalonians 3:3-7; Titus 3:10; Hebrews 12:11; 13:17; James 5:19-20.
@Dennis:
ReplyDeleteThat is how it SHOULD be. But ... in reality a lot of the COG ministers see themselves as semi Gods and will punish someone for asking the wrong questions or for some made up sin they think the lay member has committed. For these ministers it is about power, not about shepherding their flock
Such situations always make me flash to the tragic scene in "Fiddler on the Roof" where Teyve rejscts his daughter for marrying a non jew.
ReplyDeletehttps://youtu.be/TkiWIpiQjbQ
"And may God Be With you", a moving scene as well!
https://youtu.be/y-d444efxPE
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteDennis,
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree with you that disfellowshipping/excommunication is a pathetic practice, we disagree that the Judeo-Christian Scriptures support it. If God is the one who calls people into "His" Church (John 6:44), then it is illogical to suppose that he would grant any man or group of men the authority to put someone out of "His" Church.
And what do we do with the Parable of the Tares? Jesus told a story about a farmer's enemy sewing weeds in his field of grain. "Should we pull out the weeds?" his workers asked. "NO," the farmer replied, "You will uproot the wheat." The farmer went on to instruct his workers to allow the weeds and grain to grow together until harvest time, and THEN they would remove the weeds and burn them. (see Matthew 13:24-30) And, just so there wouldn't be any confusion as to his meaning, Christ later explained that the farmer represented him, the grain represented the saints and the weeds represented the unconverted evil planed among his people by the devil. Finally, he said that the harvest represented the end of the world/age, and that the harvesters were symbolic of angels. (see Matthew 13:36-43) Hence, any interpretation that suggests ministers or members have the authority to remove sinners from among the saints in the present is in direct contradiction to this very plain teaching of Jesus.
The Church discipline teaching which you outline also stands in stark contrast to Christ's teaching that the shepherd should leave the ninety-nine sheep in the fold to pursue the one that has wandered off.(see Matthew 18:12-14) Moreover, the verses which immediately follow those and reference Church discipline talk about a procedure as in private confrontation, witnesses and the entire Church. Moreover, Christ instructs his followers to treat those who refuse to listen to the Church like pagans or tax collectors. (see Matthew 18:15-17) How did Jesus treat pagans and tax collectors?
And, if we are going to use Paul as an example for Church discipline, one would have to assume that he/she/they has inherited Paul's apostolic authority. If the particular circumstances that Paul addresses in his letters to the saints at Corinth is to be our model for Church discipline, logic demands that we assume to ourselves the same office which Paul exercised in the First Century Church.
There is also the imagery of "the roaring lion seeking whom he may devour" to deal with. How do we justify throwing someone out of the sheepfold to be gobbled up by Satan the Devil?
And, finally, if putting people out of the Church is the God inspired way of dealing with problem folks, then why was Diotrephes held up as an example of how a minister shouldn't be acting? (see III John) Is it possible that excommunication/disfellowshipping/shunning are concepts that have been grafted onto Scripture?
Lonnie
Dennis, I agree that you have outlined above the way disputes within the congregations are supposed to be handled from a biblical viewpoint. But as anonymous 10:04 pointed out, this is not the process we see in the COGs.
ReplyDeleteIn your outline above, there comes a point when the entire congregation becomes involved in the process, when charges are brought against a believer. "...the matter is to be taken before the entire congregation. The whole church body will publicly confront the believer and encourage him to repent." This implies that at some point BEFORE the person is cast out, the entire congregation is made aware of the charge or offense, whether it be an egregious sin, doctrinal dispute, or other issue, and the person accused has an opportunity to present their own defense, or side of the story. It is only after this process, with the entire congregation involved and able to weigh the matter, that the person can possibly be dismissed from the congregation. In essence, they are entitled to a hearing by a jury of their fellow Christians so to speak.
Within the COGs, this part of the process is completely bypassed and the minister becomes both judge and jury of the person accused, while more often then not the rest of the congregation isn't even aware of the matter until after the person has already been put out. An announcement is then made and an edict issued that the other congregants are to have no further fellowship or contact with the accused, and the minister can spin the story however he pleases, because the person accused is no longer there to defend themselves or offer any alternate view point.
This has led to major abuse and injustice among the COGs, because those who are accused have been denied due process, and the congregation or assembly have been denied their right to hear or weigh the matter as a body. They are simply told to shun the person, and in many cases are given very few facts on the matter involved, and those facts are often misrepresented. In some cases people are put out for minor infractions, or simply a difference of opinion some issue, while other more serious sins by others go unchecked and ignored, even when brought to the minister's attention. I personally know of several cases where suspected child molesters, porn addicts, spouse abusers, etc. have been allowed to continue among the congregation, while their victims either continue to suffer, or stop coming themselves because of the abuse, while the minister does nothing.
Concerned Sister
Something there is that doesn't abide deception once recognized. In the PCG, people will be shunned when they recognize and voice the deception. They know this and yet for some reason the deception cannot be abided even if it means loss of family and friends.
ReplyDeleteCOG members will question someone that sees the deception and will ask them such things as "how's that working for you?" You are losing friends and family; why would you choose that? Invariably they will point to the turmoil this recognition of the deception causes and say it shows a mind absent of the Holy Spirit because it seems grieved and unhappy, perhaps even angry at times.
It strikes me that the COG members provide temporary support for those people in turmoil that are coming into their church amidst the turmoil of harming relationships with family and friends, and to the COG members that turmoil shows the person's willingness to sacrifice for the truth under the action of the holy spirit.
Of course, the turmoil when leaving the COG is viewed as the action of the Devil. Yet, the person is often leaving because they desire truth and not deception. The desire to separate from deception is very powerful. Why is it that powerful as you can lose so much? Rational thought alone might say just bear with it and go through the motions, but there is something more and not too many "something mores" exist that can drive someone to actions requiring one to endure fundamental pain. The Holy Spirit is one of those-- it's not too wise to condemn someone being driven by that "Something More".
Lonnie wondered: "There is also the imagery of "the roaring lion seeking whom he may devour" to deal with. How do we justify throwing someone out of the sheepfold to be gobbled up by Satan the Devil?"
ReplyDeleteAsk Paul I Cor 5
3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a][b] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
The scriptures that deal with church discipline are pre-denominational. They were implemented at a time when there was one church with one standard of behavior. Now, in these modern times, we have a mosaic of different denominations in Christian movement that define for themselves what is sin based on their particular interpretation of the Bible. Some sins are denominationally scoped and have no meaning outside a given denomination - such as loyalty to the church leader. So now we seem to not have church discipline but denominational discipline meant to preserve denominational unity. But this factionalism greatly reduces the power of any particular denomination. This overall state of affairs is something that Paul did not envision.
ReplyDeleteIf you didn't want to go to Minneapolis, why did you get on the bus? In other words, people who join cults have to be prepared to be subjected to the harshness of cult practices. Cults are brutal - you never seem to find a kindly, compassionate cult. If they have leverage, they will use it beyond reason. Cults struggle fiercely for control and survival. Out there in cultworld its feeding time 24 hours a day. They do weird, ungodly stuff. That's why cults are called cults.
Dennis
ReplyDeleteThere you go again giving us one of your sermonettes. A ACOG leader could not have written better. I find it hard to believe that a genuine atheist would bother with such a lengthy post. You sir, are a fake atheist. Any of the ACOGs would gladly have you on their team if only you would "repent," ie, pretend to repent.
Why dont you give your name??
DeleteFirst it was Iron Maiden, now I'm reminded of a Plasmatics song...
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlZkUUX7rCE
But the untenable truth "lonnie" is that some who have been disfellowshipped and suspended turn out not to believe anyway.
ReplyDeleteSo why fight to return in the first place?
Or was it a question of power and position. The ego makes demands that the heart has no desire to follow.
So it becomes an act. Keeping up of appearances.
Or is it a desire to destroy from the top down. To do to others what was done to you?
But the sad part is the once disfellowshipped and suspended ones can end up far worse than the ones who went before them.
Is this how Jesus Christ wishes them to live? You cannot destroy His people no matter how you try. You only end up destroying yourself.
11.59 PM
ReplyDeleteYour comment assumes that church going is spiritually nourishing. Perhaps sometimes, but often it's spiritually suffocating. Otherwise this blog and similar wouldn't exist.
My comment assumes nothing of what you wrote.
DeleteAnon 11:59,
ReplyDeleteWhat do the disfellowshipped not believe? I think if the hierarchy and control is fundamental to the beliefs of the particular COG then the one who left or was disfellowshipped is not likely to return. But, the problem is more with the COG not the individual generally. They don't go after those that disagree or are simply offended. Maybe it simply isn't worth their time as once someone recognizes the cogs for the cults/cultish organizations they are it's very unlikely to put the scales back on the individual's eyes. Over the years perhaps only 100,000 people have remained or died within the COG "faith". Probably over 500,000 have walked through the door and either immediately or eventually saw the COGs for being false/weird/controlling/cultish/etc. and did not return. Once "woke" it's obvious there is little chance of pulling the wool over their eyes again. The COGs believe those that leave their organization and those that leave the Christian faith are basically in the same boat, though perhaps that is changing somewhat. But, what's the difference really to the COGs: fake Christian vs. no Christian -- neither has the Holy Spirit to their thinking.
For metalhead Ronco,
ReplyDeleteThis is the downfall of the kingdom
if its war then we fighting for freedom
with a revolution confusion
dispute the truth with illusion
how dare them a point prosecution
from who right and from who wrong
from the weak we will be strong and you'll be wrong
tell me what I've got to run from
tell me what to see when i can see
tell me what to think when I'm thinking
tell me what to believe when I believe
tell me who I'm allowed to worship
tell me who to love and tell me who to hate
tell me what i can feel when I'm feeling
tell me who you want me to kill
no love no peace in the heart
all you hear is just the war and contention
want to hear when we sing these songs
when we must find peace and we must find redemption
cult Worship
ReplyDeleteProfessing to be wise, they became fools.
Romans 1:22
10.42 PM
ReplyDeleteAttending services is not an end in itself, but rather a means to the end of helping people qualify for the kingdom.
As usual for a minister, you give no facts or reasoning, just plain ol invalidation. And it's true cause you say so.