The reason COG leaders despise questions
Living Church of God leaders just cannot handle LCG members confronting them with questions or even daring to "correct" the church or "save" it. Nothing irritates Weston and his boys more. How dare church members question them! When members do have questions over doctrine they are to go straight to the ministry and MUST, I repeat MUST, follow whatever decision is handed down. No questions asked!
One of the biggest weapons and lies the church has used over the last 80 some years is that if someone leaves the church they are in the bonds of satan at that point. That's why disfellowshipping and marking are such important tools in the church. Putting fear into people's lives is vitally important and keeps them compliant and under control.
The problem LCG and the COG as a whole has is how can any member ever really trust the leadership to make the right decision considering the enormous mess they have made of the church. Hundreds and hundreds of splinter groups all led by bellowing fools and self-appointed prophets who think they know more than anyone else. It is a disgusting mess.
Beware of Misguided Ideas:
The Apostle Paul warned, “in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons” (1 Timothy 4:1–5) and that many will not listen to sound doctrine but will prefer to ignore advice and follow their own ideas (2 Timothy 3:1–6; 4:1–4). The Apostle Paul also warned that critics from within and from outside the Church will try to divide the Church to gain a following (Acts 20:29–31). He pointed out that Satan will try various ways to mislead people (2 Corinthians 2:11) by appealing to the human desire to be independent, or be recognized as an authority, or as being important (3 John 9–10). Numerous issues threatened to destroy the early Church: different ideas about foods, hair lengths, the resurrection, circumcision, or following a particular leader (see 1 Corinthians and Galatians). However, Paul’s constant advice was to “guard what was committed to your trust” (1 Timothy 6:20), to “hold fast” to what you have been “taught” (Titus 1:9–11), and “avoid foolish disputes” (Titus 3:9; 1 Timothy 6:3–5). When questions do arise over doctrine, the biblical example is to take the issue to the leaders of the Church for a decision and then follow that decision (Deuteronomy 17:8–11; Acts 15:1–31). Nowhere do the Scriptures encourage individuals to take it on themselves to correct or “save” the Church. That is something that Jesus Christ will take care of in His time as He “builds” His Church (Matthew 16:18).
Have a Profitable Sabbath,
Douglas S. Winnail
The Apostle Paul also warned that critics from within and from outside the Church will try to divide the Church to gain a following
ReplyDeleteDoug Winnail has often said that pushing his new "falling away" doctrine would set LCG apart from other ACOGs and give people a distinct reason to support LCG rather than another group.
Isn't that PRECISELY describing an attempt to "divide the Church to gain a following?" Doug, what's that thing in your eye?
DW said: ". When questions do arise over doctrine, the biblical example is to take the issue to the leaders of the Church for a decision and then follow that decision (Deuteronomy 17:8–11; Acts 15:1–31)."
ReplyDelete-----------------------------
Add to this the enforcement of I Cor 14:34 " 34 Women are to be silent in the churches. They are not permitted to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35If they wish to inquire about something, they are to ask their own husbands at home; for it is dishonorable for a woman to speak in the church.…" and the formula to discourage questions is complete.
When I replaced a certain now presiding evangelist in a church that is dead but claims to be alive, a woman came up to me at my first sermon in said church and said, "Mr ___________
always said that when a woman asked him a question he told them to go ask their husbands." Can I ask you something Mr. Diehl? Of course quoth I. "What if your husband is stupid?"
That was a classic! I said then either do your own homework or do that and let's you and I talk about it. She then poked me in the chest with finger and said "I'm gonna like you."
I could never imagine telling a woman with genuine question to just go ask her husband. Some feel that verse is an insertion by a later scribe in later church times. Mostly it seems original though one copy has it at the end of the chapter. I suspect in that copy a scribe found the text offensive himself and decided to leave it out. Stricken with guilt and obligation to just be a scribe and not an editor and unable to reinsert it in the copy he was copying, he simply added it to the end of the chapter again.
Asking questions for both member and ministry could prove fatal or at least get one marginalized is the answer was not already in easy to read and understand booklet form. I never found the Armstrongs nor the ministry as a whole interested in charting new understanding. The only time that happened was when they mucked up and could only come up with "God is giving us more time," rather than saying "I was mistaken and I mucked up." Usually they say "we mucked up" rather than "I" at this point to spread the blame and embarrassment. If there was a God, in WCG it would have been better if it spoke up before the mistake to tell us, "No, no...that's not true. I'm giving you more time than that. Don't say that!" Would have saved a lot of trouble. But the more time given was always perceived after the fact.
Noted before but...for newbies,
I asked Rod Meredith a question as a freshman in Bible class pointing out something that made no sense and was a gospel contradiction. He put me down real good in class and then later called me over to talk privately. I thought he was going to apologize for humiliating me but he simply asked "Have you repented yet." Um....no. It was just a questi0n. lol.
The other time I asked Joe Tkach Sr a question about rumors on HWA's divorce and he just yelled at me over the phone to "squelch it!" We know how that went...
PS Great cartoon!
ReplyDeleteGod works in the hearts of persons who believe the good news as they serve other persons in love. This qualifies as leadership in an interpersonal context, but is obviously not sufficient to maintain and expand an organization. But this kind of leadership, on the part of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastoral teachers and elders in the first century Christian community, led to the worldwide spread of the gospel in the first century. While few religious organizations would elect to dissolve themselves into the Christian community at large, it remains for individual Christians to pray for spiritual wisdom to exercise their freedom with responsibility, in regard to their participation in the Christian community-the ekklesia of God-which is a spiritual organism not a religious organization - Robert Hach, Editor, Reflections
ReplyDeleteIn Ontario here several years ago, a good community man and deacon in LCG (whom we shall call "Bob_G" for now) took Weston aside and raised several genuine questions and sincere concerns. In private. Rather than taking the deacons questions as being sincere and genuine, Weston flipped out on Bob the deacon, railed against him, berated him, and then suspended him from all public duties and took all pains to embarrass Bob for the better part of a year. Yet, when sheldon Monson and Michael Elertson (Elertson was always a cowardly bully and a mouthy hireling)had raised virtually the same questions, these two were literally bribed to return to and remain with LCG. Same questions, very different treatment. So much for Sheldon Monson's ministerial virtue, Mike Elertson's decency and credibility; and, so much for Weston as a godly leader. The saying which was and is all too common about Gerald Weston in North America, word for word no matter the source is:
ReplyDelete"It is hard to ascribe Christian attributes to that man."
I have heard this exact sentence from not only the youth, but middle-aged and older lay members, and ministers and their wives who are too weak to address this snake in the grass directly.
Where is Doug Winail and Gerald Weston's church-hejemony supportted in the Bible? It isn't. the verses they favour quoting have nought to do with enforcing any hideous simulacrum of a new covenant hierarchy. LCG has taken the systems of Moses and his council, the kings of ancient Israel and Judah, the judges, the priesthood and in particular the high priests, mashed it together, and they use it in a new covenant context to rule the church members.
What,, then? Will God correct his ministers by just creating a certain "feeling" in them on its own? Will they just wake up one morning and bingo they are corrected? Does Christ not work through his body? I wish LCG members would study their Bibles, draw close to God, and understand this and the last post, and not merely leave their brains at the door. This status quo in LCG is a form of idolatry. Want to look at the other commandments?
ReplyDelete"take the issue to the leaders of the church for a decision and then follow that decision."
ReplyDeleteWhat à joke. Try questioning the ministers "right" to lord it over the flock, with obvious bible references. They cherry pick doctrines. The claim that Christ will correct His church is a cheap cop out since it ignores that people, including the ministers, have the freedom to ignore bible truth. I've heard tele evangelists use it often. They say "stand back and let God deal with the problem." which has the effect of surrendering to evil.
"by appealing to the human desire to be independence.."
It's the old ploy of inserting a virtue into a group of vices. It was a favorite of HWA. Now where does the desire for independence come from? Did God or Satan program the human brain? Btw, it's the ministers who are independent of many bible truths. So it's the do as I say but not as I do thingy again.
Do these churches ever ponder why they are not being blessed by God?
Winnail says... "Nowhere do the Scriptures encourage individuals to take it on themselves to correct or “save” the Church. That is something that Jesus Christ will take care of in His time as He “builds” His Church."
ReplyDeleteI beg to differ. This might hold true for corporate institutions that refer to themselves as "the Church" and really just view their own established hierarchies as representing said Church. It has been demonstrated over and over down through history that these establishments are not what Jesus wants to build or save, and eventually all will dissolve into the pages of history along with their sisters. But this isn't what Jesus was referring to. He was referring to the assembly of the first born, which He would build through the gift of His Spirit coming and dwelling within individuals who collectively would make up His body. Hebrews 12:18-25 Acts 2:38 Acts 10:45
He has a lot to say about our interaction with each other as individuals who make up His body. We are told to "exhort one another daily"..."so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness." Hebrews 3:13 We are told to "consider how to spur one another on to love and good deeds." Hebrews 10:24 We are told to "confess your sins to one another" and " pray for one another" so that we might be healed. James 5:16 We are also told to "encourage one another and build one another up..." 1Thessalonians 5:11 These are just a few things we have been told to do for each other, with each other, as part of the spiritual body of Jesus Christ. It is individual believers who make up this body, assembly, community, or "church" as the translators were directed to call it in the KJV, and subsequently other English translations have followed that example. This is what Jesus is building, and this is what He is saving, through His spirit and the love and actions that He has directed His members to do for one another. And while those who are to be serving the body as gifts of evangelists, ministers(servants), teachers, etc. play a part in all of this, they do not replace it. Nor are they to do it for us, or dominate all the action that is to take place. Serving Jesus Christ is not a spectator sport and everyone has a part to play, including each of us proving all things, and holding fast to that which is good. 1Thessalonians 5:21
I could also point out that irrespective of the Acts 15 example, there have been many meetings of "leaders" of the religious establishment down through history, and some of the decisions made by these leaders would be things that many of us in the COGs would disagree with. For instance the Council of Laodicea met in 363-364 AD. One "decision" they made was to outlaw Sabbath observance, and encourage rest on Sunday. We could also recall the First Council of Nicaea which met in 325 AD. Among their "decisions" was to establish a uniform date for the keeping of Easter, as well as discussion of questions concerning the nature of Jesus Christ and His relationship with the Father, and the creation of the Nicene Creed. There have been subsequent meetings, synods, etc. of religious leaders in both what became the Roman Catholic Church, as well as Protestant sects, including what we call the "Church of God." Having a meeting and men sitting in a room and agreeing on something, or allowing whomever proclaims themselves to be God's representative to make a decision doesn't necessarily always mean that God approves or agrees with what ever decision is reached, and if everyone simply followed the decisions of church leaders, councils, synods, etc. we wouldn't be having this discussion. We would all just be good Catholics.
Concerned Sister
There is only one reason they want people to obey and not ask questions, and it has nothing to do with any bible verses whatsoever: the ministers want money and the power that comes with it
ReplyDeleteif a minister thinks that he has all of the answers, he had better think again....
ReplyDeleteEnlightened organizations and companies welcome and SEEK open and honest feedback, and even spend money to conduct anonymous surveys and exit interviews , in order to serve better and create a better product.
ReplyDeleteThis sounds like Dave Pack, and look how he has destroyed the lives of many individuals. Think again, I will always question questionable things. I will not let a man think he can make changes and add to and take away from.
ReplyDeleteI’ve known GW since 1990 and the one thing he is, is consistent. He came into our area and his first sermon set the tone .... there’s a new sheriff in town and he’s going to clean this church up. He quickly alienated most parents, by trying to segregate the teens from their parents at YOU activities.
ReplyDeleteThe real problem with him and so many like him, are they have drank the Koolaid of power so long, they have become naked emperors. NO ONE DARES TO POINT OUT THEIR SHORTCOMINGS.
What he and so many others seem to ignore, is they have become the very individuals they have railed against...Korah and his merry band of Priestly wannabes.
I’ve told several LCG ministers, including GW, that humility is what’s lacking, but as usual it’s taken as a condition of the group, but never the lordly themselves. Sad that so many can’t see in their own mirrors, the condition that they accuse everyone else of.
There’s a thing called ‘Influence continuum’. It is a tool that was developed to see if an organization is constructive or destructive. And the churches of God are definitely in the destructive zone:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.openmindsfoundation.org/the-bite-model-of-influence/
Bereans searched the scriptures to see if what the apostles said was true. HWA used to say,"Don't believe me, believe our Bible." These men are intellectual cowards. Honest questions would be shot down and you would be labeled as having a bad attitude. Imagine if there was a real discussion of doctrines between some of the church of God leaders and someone like Norman Geisler or Walter Martin. The church of God leaders would be exposed as poorly educated ministers.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 6:49 PM said...“Doug Winnail has often said that pushing his new 'falling away' doctrine would set LCG apart from other ACOGs and give people a distinct reason to support LCG rather than another group.”
Making up and pushing that “falling away in the world” doctrinal nonsense certainly DOES set the LCG apart and gives people a distinct reason NOT to support the LCG.
Whenever a splinter group makes up some major new doctrinal nonsense, it is a clear sign that the leadership is stupid and evil. This is a great help in knowing who to avoid.
Does the use of 'question' in this case mean to doubt? If so, even that can be seen in honest, curious inquiry. The Bible is replete with people asking questions, from the Snake in Eden, to Abraham, to Jesus, the Disciples, Scribes and Pharisees. The whole yeshiva of Biblical study is about asking questions, as Jesus did as a boy in the Temple.
ReplyDeleteAnd don't forget the recently departed Alex Trebek ... the whole premise of Jeopardy! is asking the right question.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 6:49 PM said...“Doug Winnail has often said that pushing his new 'falling away' doctrine would set LCG apart from other ACOGs and give people a distinct reason to support LCG rather than another group.”
The Great Falling Away happened in 1995 in the Worldwide Church of God under the apostate Joseph W. Tkach, Sr. when he openly threw out virtually everything that Herbert W. Armstrong had taught and about 150,000 men, women, and children in the WCG ended up scattered everywhere.
The Great Falling Away continued as Satan's false prophets like Gerald R. Flurry and David C. Pack arose to make up some of the most perverse things ever heard in any so-called COG, and as power-hungry types like Roderick C. Meredith made up various doctrinal perversions to put his own doctrinal stamp on his own churches.
The Great Falling Away of 1995, eh? All those poor souls that simply chose to follow Christ and the teaching of the New testament rather than a man (HWA) that taught extra Biblical doctrine. How exactly did they fall away? I've said it before but do you really think warming a seat for a couple of hours on Saturday and not eating pork is really the difference. All the martyrs and those that look to glorify God really didn't because they weren't devoted to those two things? I think that is absurd.
ReplyDeleteMany came to genuinely believe that the Law was part of the Covenant given to Israel and thought it was not a necessary guide when the Christ the Promise had come. Further, that this is exactly what Gal.3 says. HWA gave false prophesies and false doctrine...no falling away comes from rejecting that.
They failed to also include Christians not needing any man to teach them because the Holy Spirit will teach them all things (I John 2:27), and Jesus promising that the Holy Spirit will lead every Christian into all truth (John 16:13), and not to call any man your teacher because you have one teacher, the Messiah (Matt 23:10). Oh wait, that would make God the ultimate authority in the Christian's life and not the ministry.
ReplyDeleteI cringe inside when I read this totalitarian, "you're a dumb sheep, we're the Shepherds" garbage and get flashbacks. They're essentially saying, "don't be led by the Holy Spirit, don't have your own convictions, God doesn't teach and lead you individually. Just believe us... or else."
My heart breaks for those still in COGs. I hope God wakes more up and they get out...
"Will God correct his ministers by just creating a certain "feeling" in them on its own?"
ReplyDeleteNar!
What Happened in AD 70, Forty Years after Christ’s Death?
Titus' fighting and Siege of Jerusalem began in AD 66 and ended in AD 70.
During the four years of war, the Romans had taken 97,000 prisoners, including their religious leaders. Thousands of them were forced to become gladiators and were killed in the arena, fighting wild beasts or fellow gladiators. Some, who were known as criminals, were burned alive. Others were employed at Seleucia, where they had to dig a tunnel. But most of these prisoners were brought to Rome, where they were forced to build the Forum of Peace (a park in the heart of Rome) and the Colosseum. The Menorah and the Table were exhibited in the Temple of Peace.
A Warning Before Their Judgement:
Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I cometh, the straps of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose. He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with FIRE.
Love the comments Anon 8:13. It all rings true. They indeed have become even worse than the previous leaders they rallied against. They complain about Herbert but are ten times more petty themselves. Oh the irony.
ReplyDeleteLove the comments Anon 8:13. It all rings true. They indeed have become even worse than the previous leaders they rallied against. They complain about Herbert but are ten times more petty themselves. Oh the irony.
ReplyDeleteCont 1.43 PM
ReplyDeleteThe Temple was set on fire. During the next few days, the Romans destroyed the archives, the quarter immediately south of the Temple, and the building where the Sanhedrin convened. Then, they descended into the Old City, where many of their religious sects had their headquarters. Meanwhile, dams had been prepared to attack the palace; when Titus' men had taken it, the last defenders managed to hide themselves in the sewer system but to no avail. By 8 September 70 AD, Titus was master of what was left of the City.
On his return to Rome, Vespasian, Titus and their soldiers celebrated a triumph. They paraded through the streets of their capital in a beautiful procession, which culminated in the punishment of the Jewish leaders: Simon son of Giora was executed and John of Gischala was sentenced to life imprisonment. The sacred vessels, the table on which the Bread of God's Presence had been put, the Menorah, the curtain and all the other objects that nobody except the high priest was allowed to see, were carried through the Roman streets.
Jerusalem was set on fire! Any Jews that remained were forced to pay an additional tax (fiscus Judaicus). The boundless riches from the Temple treasury were used to strike coins with the legend JUDAEA CAPTA ("Judaea defeated"). Any Roman would be reminded of their victory to this day.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 12:46 PM said...“The Great Falling Away of 1995, eh? All those poor souls that simply chose to follow Christ and the teaching of the New testament rather than a man (HWA) that taught extra Biblical doctrine. How exactly did they fall away? I've said it before but do you really think warming a seat for a couple of hours on Saturday and not eating pork is really the difference. All the martyrs and those that look to glorify God really didn't because they weren't devoted to those two things? I think that is absurd.”
There were many more than just two teachings in the WCG.
Also, if you really want to see teachings that are not in the Bible, check out the Roman Catholic Church.
Several splinters teach that the WWCOG is spiritual Israel with physical Israel being primarily the English speaking countries. Which means that physical Israel will follow spiritual Israel by:
ReplyDelete1. a moral falling away.
2. Americas economic and military power being shattered.
3. America fragmenting into separate countries.
As John would say, time will tell.
1.16 PM
ReplyDeleteExactly. Pushing God away and putting one self in His place was the sin of Moses. Yet despite his penalty of figuratively not entering the kingdom by not being allowed entrance into the promised land, the ministers are undeterred. Like Esau and his bowl of stew, all that matters to these ministers is the now.
Isn't it interesting the wisdom of God in rejecting Moses's plea to allow him into the promised land. At the time, God appeared hard hearted, but look at all the garbage from today's ministers.
Yes, 3:26, many more teachings than those two and if you questioned any of them your conversion was questioned.
ReplyDeleteLook the gospel is simple, and time and many times again we are told explicitly who will be saved: those with fruits of Repentance and a belief in the atoning sacrifice of the Son. Why Add To that? Where Are we given the right to? You can have your beliefs on how best to serve and conduct your life’s walk, but the means to salvation is explicitly given. I’m thankful that God looks to the heart rather than a litany of physical acts and some additional doctrines that still do not of themselves display the heart.
Faith is as righteousness whether we as former pretend/incomplete law keepers want to believe it or not. We ignored and “loosed” multiple laws...but fortunately we “no longer Have need of the tutor (law)” As Gal. 3:24 states.
The understanding has resulted in a better more controlled joyful (if not always outwardly happier) and graceful and grateful life with our Lord. Maybe age drives it too, but, i know the wcg way didn’t really work and Recognizing our direct connection with God without hwa and the rest of the hierarchy is an inspiring blessing
I believe the Catholic church has a word for that: INFALLIBLE. I always knew Doug had an agenda when Meredith was alive, he would make these underhanded comments and jabs at Meredith. Now that he's dead, Doug has free reign to run his agenda.....this guy is dangerous to the LCG membership. People better be watching the "quiet" guy!
ReplyDeleteJudges 8:21
ReplyDeleteHowever one would actuate this (that is bring it about), what would these LCG dictatorial minisers say about Judges 8, in particular verse 21? Are they exempt from being held accountable in this life? If the LCG laity would stand up for what is right and biblical, their ministers and their hangers-on would not get away with one tenth of what they do.
One LCG member who is defined by his fear but who is still with them observed correctly:
"If some of these ministers were lawyers or doctors, they would either be fired or sued for malpractice. But, because they are ministers they get away with everything!"