Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
Indeed how true. This sort of thing applies especially to Melissa Scott of the University Network. I hear her, and recordings of her deceased husband Gene Scott every night on shortwave, and Melissa always rails on and on about "commitment", tithing and how people are shortchanging themselves and God by their lack of a "giving" attitude. She talks about giving incessantly, which of course means giving to her organization. As far as financial abuse goes, this group seems to be as bad or even worse than the old WCG ever was. I've heard Gene Scott even demand first fruit giving from his followers, namely giving the first paycheck of the year, first of a wage increase and so on. Oh yes, July is "double portion month". Twice the giving, twice the blessings! And Scott encourages a Feast of Tabernacles offering of $203.00, as there were 203 sacrifices that were made in ancient times at that festival. I sometimes wonder of some WCG exiters managed to get themselves sucked into this group. Melissa usually comes on in an intimidating manner, something like a scolding schoolteacher who is constantly dressing down her pupils for not meeting her exacting standards of faith and commitment. Melissa sometimes concludes her long-winded and rather convoluted diatribes by demanding listeners to "Get on the telephone. Get busy!"
3.13 PM They talk about blessings from God for giving to their church, but conveniently ignore that they themselves should in exchange be feeding their members spiritual meat. Which they do not. People often join such organizations because of a lack of structure in their lives and a lack of understanding about how the world works. So the church leaders choose to keep feeding them spiritual milk in order to keep them dependent on their organisation. Tele evangelists excel at this, as did HWA with his two trees gibberish. This is in sharp contrast to Christ telling Peter three times to "feed My sheep." It seems that Christ was aware of this temptation by ministers from the very beginning.
So true! That's the whole purpose. I don't comment on here much anymore. Religious arguing leaves me stone cold. It's all much ado about total bullshit!
yes, God will get rid of Satan (he will cease to exist, like all sinners)...but at the correct time.
as Adam & Eve had to be tested to see what they would do, the rest of mankind must be tested as well....which is why Satan is released into the Great White Throne Judgement period following the millennium...
It is a picture of a man and his son camping. His son asks his father : "Dad, if Satan causes evil and God is all powerful, why doesn't God just get rid of Satan?
The father replies: "Becasue, Son, the church needs evil to sell you the cure for sin for 10% of your income."
In my religious odyssey what I have not found among Christian denominations and writers is a strong and reasoned theodicy. So a statement like the one presented always seems quite striking and its logic unassailable. I believe that theodicy is the soft underbelly of Christianity.
Some assert that theodicy must accommodate the principle of "already but not yet." Christ has already overthrown Satan but Christ has not yet removed Satan. The work was done two thousand years ago and the victory achieved but the full implementation does not happen until the Second Coming, perhaps hundreds or thousands of years yet in the future. The interim has a purpose but I have not often encountered an explanation for this. I don't think many see Christian life as an interim phenomenon. We have settled into a routine.
As for churches, they are fund-raising engines. It's a free market and one must supply the demands of that market in order to survive. There's another church just around the corner. Capitalism then becomes a powerful yet inappropriate force for spiritual formation. Behaving selfishly for the good of all as a principle does not comport well with the underpinning philosophy of churches that preach unselfish concern for others. Some churches succumb morally and intellectually to their economic imperatives but none with as much willingness, energy and theatrics as the Armstrongist branches of Apocalyptic Millerism.
So what is the arc that connects evil and fund raising? The lack of a clear theodicy and the fear that fills that vacuum - fear that can be augmented from the pulpit in creative ways. The next time a national tragedy strikes, notice that Christians will give a great variety of explanations about why. But Armstrongists will sound a single note: Israel (the BI version) is evil and must be punished. So the statement "Because, Son, the church need evil to sell you the cure for sin for 10% of your income" is much more of an Armstrongist phenomenon that a Christian one.
@NEO “... As for churches, they are fund-raising engines ...”
Churches? It never amazes me how people can talk about the Armstrong CULTS as ‘churches’.
In order to understand the bullying and the continues pressuring the members for more money, we need to start admitting that these organizations are cults. Nothing more, nothing less.
I understand your point. Thanks. I was writing with colloquial imprecision.
But on that topic, I am not sure how the term "cult" is received by different audiences. For instance, how does a religious cult differ from a "heretical church." "Cult" seems to be a term surcharged with politics and emotion. Do you and I impart the same meaning to the term? Except in cultural anthropology, it is consistently pejorative. Alas, it has all the semantic rigor of a cuss word.
NEO The ACOGs are indeed cults, and it's history repeating itself. When Jeroboam was made king, he feared that his citizens would desert him if they went to Jerusalem to worship. So he made two golden cows for his countrymen to worship at home. Likewise the ACOGs feared that their members might leave their churches, so they decided to chain them to their churches using abusive cult techniques. Abusive cult techniques are the golden cows in these churches that the ministers and their minions worship.
NEO mentions the lack "among Christian denominations and writers [of] a strong and reasoned theodicy." Reasonable to expect, considering the contortions required to construct such a strong and reasoned system while weaving around all the quirks in the Christian myth.
I have mentioned this before, but the simplest theodicy spreads out wide enough to encompass Christianity and other religions, all the way out to no religion at all: we are living in a simulation designed by who knows who or what for entertainment purposes. Unless the simulated characters in the simulated universe run into conflicts, the reality show goes flat, and nobody wants to watch it any more. Therefore the Intelligent Designer(s) of the reality show introduce difficulties--from asteroid strikes, major wars and pandemic diseases down to early frosts, broken shoelaces and cases of the sniffles. They provide challenges at every scale for the characters to meet and overcome. Or not, as the Designer(s) will it.
I believe in a Christian version of what you have described. Instead of "Intelligent Designers" the Bible refers to "Thrones, Principalities and Powers." The overthrow of these divine forces is one of the major themes of Paul's writing. See "The Doors of the Sea" by David Bentley Hart.
1 Sam 16:23 (KJV), And it came to pass, when the evilspirit from God (Heb ruach elohim) was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil (Heb haraah) spirit (Heb ruach) departed from him.
The KJV inserted evil before the term 'ruach elohim' because the last part of the verse describes the ruach as haraah from the root ra (Strong's H7307). The haraah is feminine in form because ruach is feminine. You can check the inflection of ra here.
The lying spirit of YHVH
1 Ki 22:23 (KJV), Now therefore, behold, YHVH hath put a lying (Heb sheqer, H8267) spirit (Heb ruach) in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and YHVH hath spoken evil concerning thee.
Who killed the Egyptians?
Ex 12:23 (KJV), For YHVH will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, YHVH will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
The first part states YHVH is the one who will kill the Egyptians. The last part states the 'destroyer' is the one who will kill them.
Who moved David to number Israel?
2 Sam 24:1, Again the anger of YHVH was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
1 Chr 21:1, Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.
The actions of the Destroyer and Satan were as if YHVH was the one who did them. Angels (Heb malak) are messengers and agents of God who carry out His divine will. Even humans can be called angels/malak (e.g. Haggai 1:13).
Isa 45:5-7 (KJV), I am YHVH, and there is none else, there is no God/Elohim beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am YHVH, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHVH do all these things.
Anonymous November 23, 2020 at 5:13 AM said... “yes, God will get rid of Satan (he will cease to exist, like all sinners)...but at the correct time.
as Adam & Eve had to be tested to see what they would do, the rest of mankind must be tested as well....which is why Satan is released into the Great White Throne Judgement period following the millennium...”
Actually according to the timeline given in Rev 20 Satan is thrown in the lake of fire and dead before the GWT period or 2nd resurrection begins.
Also, from where have you gotten your belief that “Adam & Eve had to be tested to see what they would do...?”
Read Rev 20 again. In John’s dream, the devil is cast into the lake of fire before the great white throne judgment and before the second resurrection begins.
“you must be aware that he is released for a season when the thousand years are finished?...doesn't sound like he's dead yet.”
Yes I am, but vv. 7-10 outlines exactly what happens between the end of the millennium and the start of the GWT period ie Satan is released from the abyss; he deceives the multitudes of Gog and Magog who are destroyed by fire from heaven; Satan is finally thrown in the lake of fire and is basically finished, kaput. He doesn’t have any role to play in the GWT period or 2nd resurrection. That’s how I (and others like Anonymous 5:40 PM obviously) understand it.
so in the GWT period the people have the holy spirit, yet no exposure to Satan?
it seems that you are reading a gap period into the end of the millennium and the start of the GWT...which is not accurate.
when Satan is released, he comes up as a man in the second resurrection (that's his only way out of prison), and leads a rebellion against God, by people with the holy spirit....(amazing, I know)....that is the test.....everyone is exposed to Satan to see what they will do. I guess you could say that he draws out the evil in people.
people with the holy spirit and no evil to influence them could "fake it" and appear holy and righteous, and make it into the Kingdom of God, which God will never allow..
another common misconception is that there is salvation offered during the millennium...totally untrue...the millennium is a physical kingdom, much like the days of ancient Israel...physical blessings for physical obedience, the holy spirit is not available to them....everyone that lives in the millennium will come up in the second resurrection for their opportunity for salvation (which includes exposure to Satan and his ways)....this is something followers of HWA have great difficulty with.
5.51 AM The ACOGs have it wrong with their teaching of "physical blessings for physical obedience" In the OT. Zechariah 8:17 "do not plan evil in your heart's against one another." Proverbs repeats this in Proverbs 3.29. Actions follow from thoughts, so the idea that only physical obedience was required is ridiculous. Mental obedience is just as important as physical obedience.
Christ mentioned that tax collectors and prostitutes were entering the kingdom, and this was before the holy spirit was given out to that generation. Meaning that there are spiritual rewards for physical obedience. Not forgetting, as the parable of the sower points out, it's peoples pre baptismal living that typically dictates their post baptismal success or failure.
...... All these lengthy comments. Meanwhile all that really matters is a persons relationship with God. Nothing to do with tithe. Nothing to do with listening to ‘sermons’. Nothing to do with obeying ‘the law’. Find God. Don’t listen to any ‘minister’, ‘pastor’, ‘prophets’. Keep quiet.. and listen to God.
Anonymous November 25, 2020 at 5:51 AM said... "so in the GWT period the people have the holy spirit, yet no exposure to Satan?
it seems that you are reading a gap period into the end of the millennium and the start of the GWT...which is not accurate.
when Satan is released, he comes up as a man in the second resurrection (that's his only way out of prison), and leads a rebellion against God, by people with the holy spirit....(amazing, I know)....that is the test.....everyone is exposed to Satan to see what they will do. I guess you could say that he draws out the evil in people.
people with the holy spirit and no evil to influence them could 'fake it' and appear holy and righteous, and make it into the Kingdom of God, which God will never allow..
another common misconception is that there is salvation offered during the millennium...totally untrue...the millennium is a physical kingdom, much like the days of ancient Israel...physical blessings for physical obedience, the holy spirit is not available to them....everyone that lives in the millennium will come up in the second resurrection for their opportunity for salvation (which includes exposure to Satan and his ways)....this is something followers of HWA have great difficulty with."
I have to respectfully disagree with your interpretation.
Like a friend once said to me, "You don't need Satan to sin." So I reject the unscriptural fantasy of yours that Satan will be resurrected in the 2nd resurrection. I follow the clear scriptural outline I already referred to given by John in Revelation 20 (see my comment at November 24, 2020 7:35 PM). Accordingly I believe Satan will be basically dead and gone having been thrown into the lake of fire by the time of the GWT period.
Now I don't know if everyone who will be resurrected in the 2nd resurrection will have a lifespan of 100 years to live God's way of life as traditionally taught by HWA and compare it to their first lives. Or their first lives will be the basis for their judgement in the GWT period. I'm still learning in this regard. Suffice to say I believe that if anyone who rises in the 2nd resurrection rejects God's offer of salvation through Christ at that time they will be thrown into the lake of fire and suffer the 2nd death.
And no I don't believe anyone can deceive God and "fake it" as you imply. God is omniscient. He knows the end from the beginning. So there's no way IMO that someone will be able to hoodwink God into thinking they're good when in their heart they're really evil.
Re: "and it's fine that we disagree...I've never considered myself infallible....we all see through a glass darkly."
May I just say even though we agree to disagree it's a plus to be able to converse with another Christ-follower who has a different opinion to me without being disagreeable and at the same time be humble enough to concede that they might be wrong since that's an attitude I respect and tbh am trying to emulate myself knowing that we're all at varying degrees of understanding in our earthly journey and it won't be till the end when we'll finally realize the perfect man, the measure of the fulness of Christ Jesus and see eye to eye. May God speed that day! Shalom brother! :-)
Too funny and toooooooo true!
ReplyDeleteIndeed how true. This sort of thing applies especially to Melissa Scott of the University Network. I hear her, and recordings of her deceased husband Gene Scott every night on shortwave, and Melissa always rails on and on about "commitment", tithing and how people are shortchanging themselves and God by their lack of a "giving" attitude. She talks about giving incessantly, which of course means giving to her organization. As far as financial abuse goes, this group seems to be as bad or even worse than the old WCG ever was. I've heard Gene Scott even demand first fruit giving from his followers, namely giving the first paycheck of the year, first of a wage increase and so on. Oh yes, July is "double portion month". Twice the giving, twice the blessings! And Scott encourages a Feast of Tabernacles offering of $203.00, as there were 203 sacrifices that were made in ancient times at that festival. I sometimes wonder of some WCG exiters managed to get themselves sucked into this group. Melissa usually comes on in an intimidating manner, something like a scolding schoolteacher who is constantly dressing down her pupils for not meeting her exacting standards of faith and commitment.
ReplyDeleteMelissa sometimes concludes her long-winded and rather convoluted diatribes by demanding listeners to "Get on the telephone. Get busy!"
3.13 PM
ReplyDeleteThey talk about blessings from God for giving to their church, but conveniently ignore that they themselves should in exchange be feeding their members spiritual meat. Which they do not. People often join such organizations because of a lack of structure in their lives and a lack of understanding about how the world works. So the church leaders choose to keep feeding them spiritual milk in order to keep them dependent on their organisation. Tele evangelists excel at this, as did HWA with his two trees gibberish. This is in sharp contrast to Christ telling Peter three times to "feed My sheep." It seems that Christ was aware of this temptation by ministers from the very beginning.
So true! That's the whole purpose. I don't comment on here much anymore. Religious arguing leaves me stone cold. It's all much ado about total bullshit!
ReplyDeleteHi since I'm legally blind i.e. cannot see my pc screen could someone please describe the pics so I can laugh too?
ReplyDeleteyes, God will get rid of Satan (he will cease to exist, like all sinners)...but at the correct time.
ReplyDeleteas Adam & Eve had to be tested to see what they would do, the rest of mankind must be tested as well....which is why Satan is released into the Great White Throne Judgement period following the millennium...
Stephen:
ReplyDeleteIt is a picture of a man and his son camping. His son asks his father : "Dad, if Satan causes evil and God is all powerful, why doesn't God just get rid of Satan?
The father replies: "Becasue, Son, the church needs evil to sell you the cure for sin for 10% of your income."
THE ESSENCE OF ORGANIZED RELIGION:
ReplyDelete--
God is omnipotent, all powerful.
But he needs your money.
And, since he can't spend the money himself, he needs you to give it to that guy over there.
He'll burn you forever if you don't give that guy your money.
--
In my religious odyssey what I have not found among Christian denominations and writers is a strong and reasoned theodicy. So a statement like the one presented always seems quite striking and its logic unassailable. I believe that theodicy is the soft underbelly of Christianity.
ReplyDeleteSome assert that theodicy must accommodate the principle of "already but not yet." Christ has already overthrown Satan but Christ has not yet removed Satan. The work was done two thousand years ago and the victory achieved but the full implementation does not happen until the Second Coming, perhaps hundreds or thousands of years yet in the future. The interim has a purpose but I have not often encountered an explanation for this. I don't think many see Christian life as an interim phenomenon. We have settled into a routine.
As for churches, they are fund-raising engines. It's a free market and one must supply the demands of that market in order to survive. There's another church just around the corner.
Capitalism then becomes a powerful yet inappropriate force for spiritual formation. Behaving selfishly for the good of all as a principle does not comport well with the underpinning philosophy of churches that preach unselfish concern for others. Some churches succumb morally and intellectually to their economic imperatives but none with as much willingness, energy and theatrics as the Armstrongist branches of Apocalyptic Millerism.
So what is the arc that connects evil and fund raising? The lack of a clear theodicy and the fear that fills that vacuum - fear that can be augmented from the pulpit in creative ways. The next time a national tragedy strikes, notice that Christians will give a great variety of explanations about why. But Armstrongists will sound a single note: Israel (the BI version) is evil and must be punished. So the statement "Because, Son, the church need evil to sell you the cure for sin for 10% of your income" is much more of an Armstrongist phenomenon that a Christian one.
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@NEO
ReplyDelete“... As for churches, they are fund-raising engines ...”
Churches? It never amazes me how people can talk about the Armstrong CULTS as ‘churches’.
In order to understand the bullying and the continues pressuring the members for more money, we need to start admitting that these organizations are cults. Nothing more, nothing less.
Anonymous (8:12)
ReplyDeleteI understand your point. Thanks. I was writing with colloquial imprecision.
But on that topic, I am not sure how the term "cult" is received by different audiences. For instance, how does a religious cult differ from a "heretical church." "Cult" seems to be a term surcharged with politics and emotion. Do you and I impart the same meaning to the term? Except in cultural anthropology, it is consistently pejorative. Alas, it has all the semantic rigor of a cuss word.
Just saying . . .
******* Click on my icon to view my Disclaimer
NEO
ReplyDeleteThe ACOGs are indeed cults, and it's history repeating itself. When Jeroboam was made king, he feared that his citizens would desert him if they went to Jerusalem to worship. So he made two golden cows for his countrymen to worship at home.
Likewise the ACOGs feared that their members might leave their churches, so they decided to chain them to their churches using abusive cult techniques.
Abusive cult techniques are the golden cows in these churches that the ministers and their minions worship.
NEO mentions the lack "among Christian denominations and writers [of] a strong and reasoned theodicy." Reasonable to expect, considering the contortions required to construct such a strong and reasoned system while weaving around all the quirks in the Christian myth.
ReplyDeleteI have mentioned this before, but the simplest theodicy spreads out wide enough to encompass Christianity and other religions, all the way out to no religion at all: we are living in a simulation designed by who knows who or what for entertainment purposes. Unless the simulated characters in the simulated universe run into conflicts, the reality show goes flat, and nobody wants to watch it any more. Therefore the Intelligent Designer(s) of the reality show introduce difficulties--from asteroid strikes, major wars and pandemic diseases down to early frosts, broken shoelaces and cases of the sniffles. They provide challenges at every scale for the characters to meet and overcome. Or not, as the Designer(s) will it.
NEO: google the BITE model (by Steven Hassan). It’s the perfect tool for defining if an organization is a cult or not
ReplyDeleteAnonymous (11:17)
ReplyDeleteI believe in a Christian version of what you have described. Instead of "Intelligent Designers" the Bible refers to "Thrones, Principalities and Powers." The overthrow of these divine forces is one of the major themes of Paul's writing. See "The Doors of the Sea" by David Bentley Hart.
******* Click on my icon to view my Disclaimer
ReplyDeleteThe evil and female spirit of God
1 Sam 16:23 (KJV), And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God (Heb ruach elohim) was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil (Heb haraah) spirit (Heb ruach) departed from him.
The KJV inserted evil before the term 'ruach elohim' because the last part of the verse describes the ruach as haraah from the root ra (Strong's H7307). The haraah is feminine in form because ruach is feminine. You can check the inflection of ra here.
The lying spirit of YHVH
1 Ki 22:23 (KJV), Now therefore, behold, YHVH hath put a lying (Heb sheqer, H8267) spirit (Heb ruach) in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and YHVH hath spoken evil concerning thee.
Who killed the Egyptians?
Ex 12:23 (KJV), For YHVH will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, YHVH will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
The first part states YHVH is the one who will kill the Egyptians. The last part states the 'destroyer' is the one who will kill them.
Who moved David to number Israel?
2 Sam 24:1, Again the anger of YHVH was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”
1 Chr 21:1, Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.
The actions of the Destroyer and Satan were as if YHVH was the one who did them. Angels (Heb malak) are messengers and agents of God who carry out His divine will. Even humans can be called angels/malak (e.g. Haggai 1:13).
Isa 45:5-7 (KJV), I am YHVH, and there is none else, there is no God/Elohim beside me:
I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me.
I am YHVH, and there is none else.
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I YHVH do all these things.
Anonymous November 23, 2020 at 5:13 AM said...
ReplyDelete“yes, God will get rid of Satan (he will cease to exist, like all sinners)...but at the correct time.
as Adam & Eve had to be tested to see what they would do, the rest of mankind must be tested as well....which is why Satan is released into the Great White Throne Judgement period following the millennium...”
Actually according to the timeline given in Rev 20 Satan is thrown in the lake of fire and dead before the GWT period or 2nd resurrection begins.
Also, from where have you gotten your belief that “Adam & Eve had to be tested to see what they would do...?”
"Actually according to the timeline given in Rev 20 Satan is thrown in the lake of fire and dead before the GWT period or 2nd resurrection begins."
ReplyDeleteyou must be aware that he is released for a season when the thousand years are finished?...doesn't sound like he's dead yet.
Read Rev 20 again. In John’s dream, the devil is cast into the lake of fire before the great white throne judgment and before the second resurrection begins.
ReplyDeleteAnon 7:04 PM here :-)
ReplyDeleteAnonymous November 24, 2020 at 7:32 AM said...
“you must be aware that he is released for a season when the thousand years are finished?...doesn't sound like he's dead yet.”
Yes I am, but vv. 7-10 outlines exactly what happens between the end of the millennium and the start of the GWT period ie Satan is released from the abyss; he deceives the multitudes of Gog and Magog who are destroyed by fire from heaven; Satan is finally thrown in the lake of fire and is basically finished, kaput. He doesn’t have any role to play in the GWT period or 2nd resurrection. That’s how I (and others like Anonymous 5:40 PM obviously) understand it.
so in the GWT period the people have the holy spirit, yet no exposure to Satan?
ReplyDeleteit seems that you are reading a gap period into the end of the millennium and the start of the GWT...which is not accurate.
when Satan is released, he comes up as a man in the second resurrection (that's his only way out of prison), and leads a rebellion against God, by people with the holy spirit....(amazing, I know)....that is the test.....everyone is exposed to Satan to see what they will do. I guess you could say that he draws out the evil in people.
people with the holy spirit and no evil to influence them could "fake it" and appear holy and righteous, and make it into the Kingdom of God, which God will never allow..
another common misconception is that there is salvation offered during the millennium...totally untrue...the millennium is a physical kingdom, much like the days of ancient Israel...physical blessings for physical obedience, the holy spirit is not available to them....everyone that lives in the millennium will come up in the second resurrection for their opportunity for salvation (which includes exposure to Satan and his ways)....this is something followers of HWA have great difficulty with.
5.51 AM
ReplyDeleteThe ACOGs have it wrong with their teaching of "physical blessings for physical obedience" In the OT. Zechariah 8:17 "do not plan evil in your heart's against one another." Proverbs repeats this in Proverbs 3.29. Actions follow from thoughts, so the idea that only physical obedience was required is ridiculous. Mental obedience is just as important as physical obedience.
Christ mentioned that tax collectors and prostitutes were entering the kingdom, and this was before the holy spirit was given out to that generation. Meaning that there are spiritual rewards for physical obedience. Not forgetting, as the parable of the sower points out, it's peoples pre baptismal living that typically dictates their post baptismal success or failure.
...... All these lengthy comments. Meanwhile all that really matters is a persons relationship with God.
ReplyDeleteNothing to do with tithe. Nothing to do with listening to ‘sermons’. Nothing to do with obeying ‘the law’.
Find God. Don’t listen to any ‘minister’, ‘pastor’, ‘prophets’. Keep quiet.. and listen to God.
Anonymous November 25, 2020 at 5:51 AM said...
ReplyDelete"so in the GWT period the people have the holy spirit, yet no exposure to Satan?
it seems that you are reading a gap period into the end of the millennium and the start of the GWT...which is not accurate.
when Satan is released, he comes up as a man in the second resurrection (that's his only way out of prison), and leads a rebellion against God, by people with the holy spirit....(amazing, I know)....that is the test.....everyone is exposed to Satan to see what they will do. I guess you could say that he draws out the evil in people.
people with the holy spirit and no evil to influence them could 'fake it' and appear holy and righteous, and make it into the Kingdom of God, which God will never allow..
another common misconception is that there is salvation offered during the millennium...totally untrue...the millennium is a physical kingdom, much like the days of ancient Israel...physical blessings for physical obedience, the holy spirit is not available to them....everyone that lives in the millennium will come up in the second resurrection for their opportunity for salvation (which includes exposure to Satan and his ways)....this is something followers of HWA have great difficulty with."
I have to respectfully disagree with your interpretation.
Like a friend once said to me, "You don't need Satan to sin." So I reject the unscriptural fantasy of yours that Satan will be resurrected in the 2nd resurrection. I follow the clear scriptural outline I already referred to given by John in Revelation 20 (see my comment at November 24, 2020 7:35 PM). Accordingly I believe Satan will be basically dead and gone having been thrown into the lake of fire by the time of the GWT period.
Now I don't know if everyone who will be resurrected in the 2nd resurrection will have a lifespan of 100 years to live God's way of life as traditionally taught by HWA and compare it to their first lives. Or their first lives will be the basis for their judgement in the GWT period. I'm still learning in this regard. Suffice to say I believe that if anyone who rises in the 2nd resurrection rejects God's offer of salvation through Christ at that time they will be thrown into the lake of fire and suffer the 2nd death.
And no I don't believe anyone can deceive God and "fake it" as you imply. God is omniscient. He knows the end from the beginning. So there's no way IMO that someone will be able to hoodwink God into thinking they're good when in their heart they're really evil.
" "You don't need Satan to sin." "
ReplyDeletesome don't....but others would never consider stealing until the opportunity presents itself, and the temptation might be too great.
...and it's fine that we disagree...I've never considered myself infallible....we all see through a glass darkly.
ReplyDeleteHey Anonymous November 26, 2020 5:52/5:53 AM
ReplyDeleteRe: "and it's fine that we disagree...I've never considered myself infallible....we all see through a glass darkly."
May I just say even though we agree to disagree it's a plus to be able to converse with another Christ-follower who has a different opinion to me without being disagreeable and at the same time be humble enough to concede that they might be wrong since that's an attitude I respect and tbh am trying to emulate myself knowing that we're all at varying degrees of understanding in our earthly journey and it won't be till the end when we'll finally realize the perfect man, the measure of the fulness of Christ Jesus and see eye to eye. May God speed that day! Shalom brother! :-)