As this tumultuous election season comes close to an end and with the electoral college voting in Joe Biden as our next President, it has raised the hackles of many COG leaders.
Matthew Armstrong has been on a holy terror for the last several months with all kinds of conspiracy theories and how awful things will be under a new regime.
Gerald Flurry and his Philadelphia Church of God and Church of God Inernational have been the biggest political foghorns the church has ever seen (this year).
Flurry has been absolutely adamant that Donald Trump would be reelected and that the electoral college would vote him back in. He has expounded on this in his TV broadcasts, Twitter, Facebook, and in his church rags:
In his Philadelphia Trumpet magazine he had this:
According to Flurry and many other COG leaders, Biden is close to ushering in the time of troubles that COG leaders are looking so eagerly forward to. Flurry even goes as far as to claim that Biden is contrary to Bible prophecy.
Lonnie Hendrix has these observations about the various COG groups sticking their noses into politics.
For several months now, I’ve been drawing attention to the blatant partisanship exhibited by many of the church organizations that have emerged from the wreckage of Herbert Armstrong’s Worldwide Church of God. Although the ACOG culture has always leaned right, like most of the rest of Americans who are so inclined, many within that culture are in the bag for Donald Trump. Perhaps this development should not have elicited such surprise and consternation on my part - as it would be completely disingenuous to suggest that we shouldn’t have expected it. After all, those who have willing given themselves to the personality cult surrounding Herbert Armstrong and his teachings were bound to have a predisposition for joining the cult of personality surrounding Trump!
Predictably, Gerald Flurry’s Philadelphia Church of God is completely in the bag for Trump. In a recent offering at the Trumpet.com, Brad MacDonald wrote: “Mr. Biden has a long, easily proven track record of political corruption. The Hunter Biden scandal shone the light of truth on this reality just days before the election. Joe Biden supports both Antifa and Black Lives Matter. He also has a record of rejecting the rule of law and the Constitution (for example, he is a key member of the Obama-led cabal behind the Mueller report and impeachment trial, both of which were unconstitutional). Meanwhile, Kamala Harris, the candidate for vice president, is even more far left than Joe Biden.” – Thanks to Democracy, America is Over, Virtually
MacDonald continued: “To choose Joe Biden and his radical agenda, one must suffer from at least one of two basic flaws in thinking. First, he would have to be totally ignorant of the facts illuminating Mr. Biden’s condemning record, his radical policies and his sadistic ambitions for America. Second, a person must not sufficiently value America’s continuation as a capitalist Republic, its political and social stability, and the general idea of traditional America. He mustn’t value America’s Constitution, the rule of law, and its Judeo-Christian heritage and morality. As president, Mr. Biden would assault all of these.” – same article reference above
Mr. MacDonald concluded his diatribe with a discourse on the failure of democracy in America. His reasoning – Since a majority of Americans were stupid enough to vote for Joe Biden (instead of the obvious choice, Donald Trump), democracy has failed. The underlying thesis, of course, is that America’s only hope is Trump staging a successful coup, overthrowing the results of the election and continuing in office!
It should be noted that MacDonald’s effort was intended as a companion piece to the main offering in this regard provided by none other than the notorious pastor general of the PCOG, Gerald Flurry. In an article entitled Donald Trump Is Going to Win This Election (penned November 9), Mr. Flurry wrote: “Regardless of how things look right now, I am confident that Donald Trump will remain president.” See Flurry Article at Trumpet.com He continued: “The radical left in America have done everything in their power for the last four years to discredit and destroy Donald Trump. They have spied. They have lied. They have cheated. They have broken laws too numerous to count. They have committed treason, trying to depose the duly elected government! And somehow, President Trump has weathered all those storms.” He went on to declare that “a Biden presidency is contrary to Bible prophecy.” Really, that will come as quite a shock to millions of Christian Americans!
Flurry went on to say: “The mainstream media insist there is “no evidence” the Democrats tried to steal this election. This is patently false: There is plenty of evidence. But it is also absurd, when you think about what the left has been doing for the past several years! You would have to be naive not to think they are committing great frauds with this election.” He continued: “I also marvel that so many people voted for the radical platform the Democratic Party has embraced. They want to encourage illegal immigration, even giving them free health care and welfare and education. They want to ravage the economy to combat “climate change.” They accept radical racist ideals and far-out sexual practices. They applaud lawlessness and a spirit of insurrection. It doesn’t take much to understand that in a democracy, when that many people are so ignorant, it is over. This nation is lost, virtually.”
“Oh well, that’s crazy Gerry and his minions!” some will innocently declare. “You can’t paint the entire culture with that paintbrush.”
Nevertheless, I have pointed out some of the very partisan articles and sermons delivered by “moderate” Church of God International pastors, Bill Watson and Adrian Davis. And those gentlemen apparently aren’t the only “reasonable” ACOG folks who have fallen into this partisan trap!
Dave Havir’s Church of God Big Sandy has published some very interesting articles in the latest edition of their Eye on the World. In an article entitled No Time for Phony Healing by Michelle Malkin, we read: “We, the 71 million Americans who voted to reelect Donald J. Trump, do not forgive. We, the 71 million Americans who voted to reelect Donald J. Trump, do not forget. We, the 71 million Americans who voted to reelect Donald J. Trump, do not surrender. We, the 71 million Americans who voted to reelect Donald J. Trump, resoundingly reject the phony olive branches of former Vice President Joe Biden. After liberal media operatives prematurely declared Biden the winner of election 2020 this weekend, Biden’s handlers carefully trotted him out in front of the cameras to read a script that proclaimed: “It’s time to put away the harsh rhetoric, to lower the temperature, to see each other again, to listen to each other again.”
The author’s response to Biden’s overture: “This is the time for hell-raising, not healing. Every legal vote must be counted, every illegal vote thrown out, every lawsuit heard. Anything less amounts to exactly the kind of “coup” undermining the “peaceful transition of power” that anti-Trump forces falsely accused our president of perpetrating. We, the 71 million Americans who voted to reelect Donald J. Trump, resist the media-Silicon Valley coronation of Biden-Harris. We, the 71 million Americans who voted to reelect Donald J. Trump, do not relent. We, the 71 million Americans who voted to reelect Donald J. Trump, do not yield. We, the 71 million Americans who voted to reelect Donald J. Trump, do not concede.”
How can anyone claim with a straight face that the rejection of forgiveness, the offer of an olive branch, reconciliation and humility be characterized as "Christian"? Do Christians advocate for "hell-raising, not healing"? Indeed, I can't imagine anything being more antithetical to the tenets of the Christian religion!
Now, it is true that Pastor Havir prefaced these offerings with a disclaimer: “This compilation of material for “Eye on the World” is presented as a service to the Churches of God. The views stated in the material are those of the writers or sources quoted by the writers, and do not necessarily reflect the views of the members of the Church of God Big Sandy. The following articles were posted at churchofgodbigsandy.com for the weekend of Nov. 14, 2020.” Nevertheless, I fail to see how the inclusion of this material could be considered to be rendering "a service to the Churches of God."Moreover, another article in the same offering dealing with the political cult of personality surrounding Trump was prefaced with this qualifier: “Following is a letter from an individual who claims that “[President] Trump has succeeded in creating a cult.” This letter probably reflects the opinion of 90 percent of the corporate media and many of the population that voted against President Trump. (For the record—Although the current vote tally has half of the voting population as voting against President Trump, not all of them would go so far as to claim that his supporters are members of a Trump cult.)"
Now, while I’m confident that most of the folks in the ACOG culture will be perplexed that anyone could find fault with these offerings, I am also confident that objective Christians will find these remarks to be very objectionable. Once again, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO BE A REPUBLICAN OR A TRUMP SUPPORTER TO BE A CHRISTIAN! Unlike Herbert Armstrong, I do not have any problems with Christians voting or expressing opinions about the moral implications of policy, but I do object to ministers announcing the correct political view from the pulpit! And we should all be able to recognize the fact that such offerings severely curtail the appeal of any religious message offered by these groups. After all, almost 80 million Americans voted for Joe Biden and telling them that they are ignorant and Satanic for doing so is NOT likely to make them very receptive to any appeal offered by these folks.
- Lonnie Hendrix aka Miller Jones
COGs are also for having a "strong military" , yet refuses military service or involvement. Same thing goes for law enforcement. They advocate for the police, and enforcement, but will not allow members to be policemen.
ReplyDeleteBack in the Vietnam Era, this was called being a "Chicken Hawk". Definition from Wikipedia...
Chickenhawk (chicken hawk or chicken-hawk) is a political term used in the United States to describe a person who is a war hawk, yet actively avoids or avoided military service when of age.[1] Generally, the implication is that chickenhawks lack the moral character to participate in war themselves, preferring to ask others to support, fight, and perhaps die in an armed conflict.
Know what's really weird? "Christians" who pray "Thy will be done," and then when God reveals his will, they shout, "No! That can't be right. I want a do-over!"
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, Gerald Flurry should prophesy on the same timeline he claims the Bible uses. He should tell us how an election to be held two thousand years from now is going to turn out.
You had me at ‘hypocritical COG leaders’
ReplyDeleteHypocritical, yes. Though I believe Trump is far better for America and religious freedom than the swamp residents Biden and Harris et al.
ReplyDeleteTonto, that definition of chicken hawk sounds an awful lot like the person who is currently at the center of this new political personality cult!
ReplyDeleteLast Sabbath, CGI's Bill Watson gave a sermon asking his listeners to pray for God's intervention in this election so that Trump can remain in office! If you're interested in this crazy stuff, you can see it here:
https://www.cgi.org/weeklysermons?sapurl=LytxNWdtL2xiL21pLytjNGNwZm41P2VtYmVkPXRydWU=
And, if Trump's coup d'état is unsuccessful, it will be interesting to see how Flurry gets out of predicting four more years for his hero. I'm thinking that false prophet label might stick this time!
I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT BELIEVE THAT AT ALL
ReplyDeleteAnother pathetic prophetic pronouncement. That's alright, at least one person believes him.
What? I can't imagine why old Gerald Flurry would want his followers to feel affinity for a narcissistic old grifter with a penchant for authoritarianism who enriches himself and his family off of donations from gullible devotees, fills positions of power exclusively with worthless yes-men and his own entitled, unqualified children, and is even known for running a scam "university". I mean, what could those two possibly have in COMMON?
ReplyDeleteA timely piece that appeared first in the National Review:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.yahoo.com/news/christianity-ideology-cautionary-tale-jericho-194908947.html
My eyes go all Flurry, I mean Blurry went I read of Gerrys latest proclamations.
ReplyDeleteThat said I am not overwhelmed with enthusiasm with a Biden/Harris Presidential twosome.
That said I loathe Gerry more.
But I truely await Dr Big Bwana Bob's insights to this 'most interesting time we live in' .
I am sure he will reveal all.
Although some say his revelations are as exciting as watching paint dry.
Let me cite orthodox Armstrongist teaching. "So we have the GOVERNMENT OF MAN, swayed and formed under SATAN THE DEVIL! But remember this: In MAN'S GOVERNMENTS, formed under SATAN'S sway . . . Satan APPEARS as an "angel of light." He must APPEAR to be righteous before his deceived world!. . . We, as GOD'S OWN PEOPLE, have come out of this world. We are not part of it. We do not vote or participate in its government in any way. We must live IN it, but we must NOT be OF it." -- Herbert W. Armstrong, "What shall we obey? The civil government or God's?", Good News Magazine, August 1979.
ReplyDeleteI have a few questions. HWA's view of human government is clear in the statement above. Who gave Donald Trump a waiver from this principle? Who decided that HWA was wrong? Why is this blatant departure from HWA's published and carefully preserved dogma not classed as apostasy? How can an Armstrongist extend approval to Donald Trump and at the same time claim to be a follower of HWA?
Notice that HWA did not qualify the term "GOVERNMENT OF MAN". He did not say that if it is right-wing it is acceptable to God. And if you're a prophecy fan, how about:
"This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men." Daniel 4:17
How did Donald Trump get a waiver here as well? Did Daniel issue him one somewhere?
Just asking. I have not read any of the Apocalyptic Millerite literature that advocates D. Trump and am not likely to.
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ReplyDeleteDonald Trump is a fighter and might still win the 2020 presidential election.
Gerald Flurry is Satan's false prophet and will always be Satan's false prophet no matter who wins the 2020 presidential election.
Stephen Flurry is a hypocrite. The PCG doesn't vote and they claim to stay out of politics, yet here is, encouraging his audience to go and protest outside of Governor's Stitt's office. You can watch him here, yourself: https://youtu.be/3czu_taMwrw?t=607. So much for being apolitical!
ReplyDeleteI remember coming across the WCG in the late 1980s. I soon learned about its doctrine re voting. It’s always confused me how the WCG and other splinters have traditionally supported the Republican party especially at election time even though at the same time they have taught their members not to vote. It’s like cognitive dissonance I think. Definitely inconsistent and hypocritical since the clerical hierarchy promotes Republican policies, but the laity are told they’re not allowed to vote.
ReplyDeleteMiller/Lonnie could go after UCG as well. Their November-December Beyond Today had several articles clearly opposing the Democratic Party - perhaps the most one-sided election issue they've ever had.
ReplyDeleteScott Ashley's "editorial" for some reason never names the party. But it criticizes several things Democrats have talked about doing, such as "packing" the Supreme Court with more justices.
Kudos to COGWA for being truly apolitical in recent months. Any comments from President Jim Franks have been general, not taking sides.
But admittedly, what local Pastors say during "announcements" before the sermon recording begins could be different. That's how some Pastors have presented their views for decades.
Tremendous article. Incredible. The very best. Flurry will make the COG great again. We have assembled the holiest, most righteous team. The most luxurious, holy, HQ. The Godliest dancing. This Irish dancing. It'll make you weep from its supreme majesty. The holy of holies will be built with the prayer rock as the cornerstone and the rest of the COG will pay for it with their tithes and offerings.
ReplyDeleteLooks like Stephen Flurry's activism bore some fruit: https://youtu.be/1ONtShls5GI?t=3115.
ReplyDeleteNEO @ December 18, 2020 at 2:06 PM
ReplyDeleteNEO hits the nail on the head. COGs should not be involved in worldly politics. God decides who the government leaders will be. This is why we are told not to waste our time in voting. We are in the world but not of the world, remember?
And ‘not of the world’ equals ‘not responsible for anything’ I suppose.
DeleteTrump is still going to do one more exec action before Jan-20: End Birthright Citizenship. It will be worth it just for that!
ReplyDeleteWhy not mention Beyond Today's recent political stance Lonnie/Miller Jones and staunch fan club ? Oh yeah I forgot you are actually from the UCG ministry masquerading on here under a few different names.
ReplyDeleteSilly me forgetting.
Go on tell the readers, did you think of doing this yourselves or did you get assigned this 'job'.
There are quite a few COGgers here Anon 11:52. They’re easy recognizable and only adding to the fun of mocking the COG’s and their leaders!
DeleteCan you imagine having to read all the stuff posted and not being able to launch an attack to put those heretics in their right place? Must be totally frustrating.. 😬
No its not 8:15. Many are here because quite a few so called Pastors within COG groups are here. Exposing themselves as the godless ones with fake names.
DeleteIt's actually satisfying to realize the ones who's sermons and behaviours I found off and odd are actually as fake as could be. Atheists and doubters. It makes a lot of sense of the crazy behaviours and crazy lying and odd subject sermons I endured for the past 11 years.
I love the truth.The truth does indeed set people free. Praise be to God Almighty and Jesus Christ.
Keep up the dodgy work 8:15 many are watching.
Same thing going on in the RCG. Dave and his Pack of Wolves is telling the members not to vote, yet at the same time they encouraged them to post and repost all the pro Trump news on their social media. And that still goes on.
ReplyDeleteOne can only wonder WHAT Dave Pack has to gain if Trump had won..
"COGs should not be involved in worldly politics."
ReplyDeleteAll the comments so far fail to acknowledge that the Democratic party has dropped it's Pharisaic mask and has become openly vile. Which means the death of western civilization and the ruin of us all. Most posters here are old and have lived their lives, but God have pity on the young.
All churches have a right and a responsibility to speak out in such a situation.
Anonymous (9:36)
ReplyDeleteLet me point out that my argument is based on Armstrongist beliefs. I do not personally hold to those beliefs. This does show that many splinter groups are, technically, no longer Armstrongist. They have abandoned HWA's teaching on the church and worldly governments, for instance, and have joined the large parade of White evangelicals who cultically adulate D. Trump. HWA would be appalled. That is why I have begun to refer to the splinter groups as "Apocalyptic Millerites" rather than Armstrongists.
Note: I would call them Neo-Armstrongists but that is too similar to my blog moniker.
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Miller Jones, you wrote "How can anyone claim with a straight face that the rejection of forgiveness, the offer of an olive branch, reconciliation and humility be characterized as "Christian"?"
ReplyDeleteYour analysis in this post is quite perceptive. This whole phenomenon has a lengthy history. Prior to the rise of The Donald, my impression of White, North American evangelicals was that they worshipped Rush Limbaugh first and Christ second. Prior to Rush maybe it was Paul Harvey. Which is to say that American evangelicalism has been in the grips of a right-wing political apostasy for decades.
And this is because morality has always been, for some reason, identified with the right-wing. And immorality with the liberal left. I believe this was due to the deft propaganda of rightist special interest groups - mostly supporters of neo-feudalism. But the bogus association of morality with the right is easily invalidated. I recall listening to a news program some years back that covered the impact of the Republican convention on a large city. One businessman, looking forward to largesse, stated that when Republicans come to town, prostitution does a booming business - not so much when Democrats come to town. The data is out there if evangelicals (and their Armstrongist hanger-ons) ever took a notion to face it.
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For the record, I have never been affiliated with the United Church of God. And, although they appear not to be as overtly political as some of these other groups, I would wholeheartedly agree that they aren't immune from the phenomenon. The recent Beyond Today article on the Pilgrims is a tribute to the white Republican version of American history. Moreover, one of their most prolific bloggers, Melvin Rhodes, is about as right-wing as you can get - wholly in the bag for Trump and an avid supporter of Trump's claims about election fraud. In other words, while one might be able to make a case that United isn't as bad as Philadelphia in this regard, that isn't saying a whole lot (in my humble opinion). I'm definitely NOT a fan of UCOG!
ReplyDelete5:46 Yes you are perfectly free to express you beliefs about the "openly vile" Democrats, or any other topic, but just bear in mind that none of us must mistakenly assume that your "beliefs" about something confirm that it is correct. That's when religion in particular gets into trouble. "Speaking out" against a social, religious, political or moral issue is a matter of your INTERPRETATION of the information available to you that others have the right to disagree with. Everyone thinks that they are right, and yet how many splits and splinters do we have in every walk of life? Just a little humility would keep everyone's beliefs to just that...beliefs.
ReplyDeleteNeo, you are becoming unreadable. Your impression was off and embarrassing; evangelicals never and obviously never consider Rush more than Christ. You apparently have not interacted with many and your perception is based in media bias.
ReplyDeleteNEO 9:54 said:
ReplyDelete"This does show that many splinter groups are, technically, no longer Armstrongist. They have abandoned HWA's teaching on the church and worldly governments, for instance, and have joined the large parade of White evangelicals who cultically adulate D. Trump. HWA would be appalled".
Neo, you easily brought me right back to Exodus. With "Moses" gone, the congregation has indeed erected the golden calf (ox). If that is truly the case, then that means Donald Trump is the god in their eyes to facilitate the "work" and lead them to the promised land.
And Neo, I can still hear in my head the thundering voice emphatically declaring; "come out of her (Babylon) my people and be not partakers of her sins".
Joseph W. Tkach did indeed open upon the alter the box of gods unto the WCG. What you are seeing and identifying right now NEO are many hybrid tangents not so much with Millerite tangibles but with the same foundational ideal that was present during the wave that HWA rode until his death.
HWA's version of religious humanism was right on point for a utopian hypothesis. But any type of humanism needs a driver, and that driver is rhetoric.
Donald Trump checks all the boxes for one to cleave unto for those now focused on secular humanism. HWA would be far from appalled, he would be enthralled that a seen hand from someplace not too much unlike himself could drive a large populace, religious or not, to embrace such a secular ideal.
So the question is not whether if HWA would be appalled, the question is whether God is once again appalled with his congregation.
ReplyDeleteDecember 19, 2020 at 10:10 AM wrote>
Neo, you are becoming unreadable. Your impression was off and embarrassing; evangelicals never and obviously never consider Rush more than Christ. You apparently have not interacted with many and your perception is based in media bias.
Of course their bias. They are liberals and have a ax to grind. Always learning marxism but unable to understand it outside of words like social justice.
The media are total liars. So are most bible preachers such as fart-face Flurry. For some honest news, check out bitchute. You get crazy liars there too, but at least some of them are trying to get to the bottom of things. The mainstream media, Fox, CNN, BBC, etc, LIE nonstop. It appalls me that there are still people who take the main stream seriously when proof of their lying is voluminous if people will just look for it. You can't understand prophecy by listening to lying news.
ReplyDeleteThe media-democrat coup will over throw Trump.
ReplyDeleteAnd in Mark Armstrong's weekly rant, the family heir of Armstrongism asks, Will President Trump have any allies in government agencies if he should determine to fight? Or will he just quietly get into a limousine and leave America to its Chinese captors?
ReplyDeleteNEO,
ReplyDeleteYour impressions were spot on and penetrating. This belief that right = good and left = bad runs deep and motivates a great deal of the vitriol extant in our politics and religion. This thinking has its foundation in the association of the left with abortion, gay rights, socialism (also seen as evil) and a less than flattering view of some aspects of U.S. history. It not only completely ignores the fact that the left has been traditionally associated with caring for the poor and disadvantaged and supporting fair wages for workers (all VERY Christian values), it also ignores the very anti-Christian principles which motivate some of the right's positions (e.g. supporting the accumulation of wealth, support for the proliferation of weaponry and paternalistic policies toward women and minorities). In other words, the reality is that both sides reflect some aspects of Christ's teachings and other views that could quite fairly be characterized as being inconsistent with them. They forget that the reason that there is a right and a left is that there is some truth and goodness in both outlooks (otherwise, everyone would be one or the other), and that the American system was originally designed to arrive at the "sweet spot" between the two extremes - to prevent the complete triumph of either side. In the end, God's way is the only "right" way, and any of the systems which we put forward are going to contain flaws and foster "bad" outcomes in some instances.
Miller Jones writes;
ReplyDeleteIt not only completely ignores the fact that the left has been traditionally associated with caring for the poor and disadvantaged and supporting fair wages for workers (all VERY Christian values), it also ignores the very anti-Christian principles which motivate some of the right's positions (e.g. supporting the accumulation of wealth, support for the proliferation of weaponry and paternalistic policies toward women and minorities).
The democrats. The party of the KKK. You forgot to mention that, but then again it's true. You have a agenda.
Of course 'Miller Jones' fake name has a agenda. The fake names are not even American. They are fooling a lot of people, but not all.
DeleteWhen you realize that the "religious freedom" political slogan is just code for "hide behind religion as our excuse to treat the people we hate like shit" much like "Make America Great Again" is just code for "take America back to when us old white guys ran everything before women and minorities started getting all uppity", it's no surprise that Flurry, Armstrong and their ilk would line up 100% in support of it.
ReplyDeleteThe COG organizations have been prophesying for years that things were going to get bad. When things do take a turn for the worse, they want it to stay the same or somehow get "better" again. You can't have it both ways. How many times have we heard about the U.S. economy collapsing?
ReplyDeleteThe current administration has gotten the U.S. into even more debt. No matter who runs the show it will get worse. If PCG wanted DT in office so badly, why didn't their members and coworkers go out and vote for him? Perhaps, some did. I still haven't figured out how DT fits into the Amos prophesy. It's because he doesn't.
Honestly, COG members does this rotten, evil, sick world need to go on and on?
Grittyman
ReplyDeleteSo my 5.46 AM post is just my opinion, an interpretation, and I can't prove that, etc. How many times have I been accused of that when I have disagreed with others?
I case you missed it, your point of view is also "just your opinion." It too is "just an interpretation." It's not as if your words are words from the mouth of God either.
The frequent come back of 'you can't prove that' is a cheap shot since it's not meant as a proof, but as a statement of personal belief. What percentage of what people say in every day life can they 'prove?'
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 12/19 5:46 AM said...
"COGs should not be involved in worldly politics."
All the comments so far fail to acknowledge that the Democratic party has dropped it's Pharisaic mask and has become openly vile. Which means the death of western civilization and the ruin of us all. Most posters here are old and have lived their lives, but God have pity on the young.
All churches have a right and a responsibility to speak out in such a situation.
****
Can’t agree more 5:46 AM!
Like Daniel’s friends in Babylon who chose to refuse to worship Nebuchadnezzar’s idol even if the consequences meant their death. Like the 7 Judean brothers who under Antiochus IV Epiphanes refused to consume unclean meat and were tortured to death.
Forcing people to do something they don’t want to especially if it violates their beliefs or conscience is wrong. Worse still is to punish them for it.
As a Christian I don’t believe there is anything wrong with pointing out or protesting against immoral policies and practices that political, educational, religious etc. institutions hold to. How else can real reformation occur?
Anonymous 12/19 5:46 and 12/19 @ 9:16,
ReplyDeleteYour comments confirm the point that NEO made earlier. You equate the Democratic party with evil and assume that the motivations of liberals (or those who disagree with you) are nefarious or uncaring. Yes, many of us are older and have probably already lived the majority of the time allotted to us, but it does NOT follow that we don't care about what kind of world we leave behind us when we're gone. I have five beautiful little grandchildren that I very much would like to see inherit a more prosperous, cleaner, fairer and more just world than the one I inherited from my forbearers.
I agree with the statement that "Forcing people to do something they don’t want to especially if it violates their beliefs or conscience is wrong," but do you think that applies to folks on the left as well? - Should they be allowed to follow the dictates of their consciences as well? And, what happens when the free exercise of your rights begins to infringe upon the free exercise of my rights? We tried prohibition once upon a time, and (if memory serves me in this instance) I don't think that worked out very well. I would agree with you that it's fine to express your opinion/view/belief that some policy or practice is immoral, but should you be allowed to impose that morality on everyone - even the folks who hold a different opinion/view/belief?
Miller 10:19
ReplyDeleteIt is telling that "the person" equates one's opinions and complete worldview now and in the past, with the actions of a political party.
Whilst political parties are merely vehicles to get at least some parts of one's opinions tranformed into action, through a temporary alliance of the "collective will" and the power to execute.
nck
There’s a psychological reason for the COG’s not wanting their members to vote: if the COG leaders would allow them to vote, they would give the members a voice.
ReplyDeletePack, Flurry, Weston and the other wolves would tell the members that it is okay to raise their voices, think for themselves and (God forbid!) hold leaders accountable.
If you want to hold people hostage, you tell them that they have no rights, no voice and they have to obey you. COG’s in a nutshell.
Miller Jones writes:
ReplyDelete' I would agree with you that it's fine to express your opinion/view/belief that some policy or practice is immoral, but should you be allowed to impose that morality on everyone - even the folks who hold a different opinion/view/belief?'
Same goes for the mask wearers confronting people with actual science. The mask wearers demand we protect them from a virus 1000 times smaller than a human hair. The mask does not come close to filtering out something that small. Just look at the box they come in. It says it does not protect from disease. A group of 20,000 asbestos fibers is nearly undetectable; as small as a strand of human hair. To actually protect oneself during abatement you need a respirator with a special filter.
No MIller, the mask is worthless.Freedom to chose is not.
James,
ReplyDeleteThe CDC says: "SARS-CoV-2 infection is transmitted predominately by respiratory droplets generated when people cough, sneeze, sing, talk, or breathe. CDC recommends community use of masks, specifically non-valved multi-layer cloth masks, to prevent transmission of SARS-CoV-2. Masks are primarily intended to reduce the emission of virus-laden droplets (“source control”), which is especially relevant for asymptomatic or presymptomatic infected wearers who feel well and may be unaware of their infectiousness to others, and who are estimated to account for more than 50% of transmissions.1,2 Masks also help reduce inhalation of these droplets by the wearer (“filtration for personal protection”). The community benefit of masking for SARS-CoV-2 control is due to the combination of these effects; individual prevention benefit increases with increasing numbers of people using masks consistently and correctly." see https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html
We have decided as a society NOT to allow folks to choose to dispose of their untreated sewage directly into our streams, rivers and lakes. We have decided to require the wearing of shirts and shoes in public businesses. You can choose not to vaccinate your children in many places, but society has also decided to make it difficult or impossible for them to be admitted to public schooling. Also, does the freedom to choose extend to a woman contemplating an abortion? My grandmother used to say, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander!" She was absolutely right.
Miller Jones wrote "And, what happens when the free exercise of your rights begins to infringe upon the free exercise of my rights?"
ReplyDeletePoint well taken. And it should be instructive to all those who have bought into D. Trump's faux conservative agenda. He is not a conservative - he is a populist demagogue. His political philosophy is written by his eccentric base and he adds to it his own self-vested concerns. Sorry, that was a little cutting but I have no other way to address the issue.
Conservatism has long supported the concept of "neighborhood effects" first written about by Milton Friedman, a conservative economist, a monetarist, from the University of Chicago. Basically, the principle is that neighborhood effects modify freedom. Or in other words, do what you want but your rights come under question when they affect someone else.
The Trumpians, when they reject masks, are denying the conservative philosophy of neighborhood effects and following a simple meme of "my way or the highway." This is not a conservative approach. It is simply a selfish approach consonant with the other selfish approaches of the overall Trumpian context. This is why true conservatives have massive heartburn when people with simplistic selfish declarations of freedom claim also to be conservative. The left-wing seeks to abrogate freedoms in the same way. These conservatives "in name only" really espouse the Nazi Lebensraum doctrine. That is why their leader exemplifies the ultimate selfish by saying "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose any voters." This is also the ultimate renunciation of the conservative principle of constructive freedom.
From the Healthline webpage. Keep in mind that a mask can greatly reduce risk not by stopping viruses but by stopping the much larger saliva droplets that enclose the viruses:
"Importantly, researchers also that flu rates were lower when masks were paired with proper hand hygiene."
And where does not wearing a mask fit into "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." This demonstrates that the Trumpians on this issue are not conservative and are not Christian. They are just unashamedly selfish.
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James are you King James of Britain trying to save the nation now that within days all movement of persons to and from the United Kingdom will be suspended just days before Britain would have sunk in the abyss anyways for failing to come to terms with the worlds 2nd economic power.
ReplyDeleteLet the British eat cake with their failure to use masks or abide with the rules of engagenent with the virus and fck over 300.000 dead Americans? Is that your point? Is that it with your false perception of what constitutes freedom. Easy quick solutions for the lowest price? What a depraved culture we have under the guise of "freedom."
Nck
Miller Jones, masks do not help reduce inhalation of droplets by the wearer. A sneeze puts out extremely small molecules that thew mask won't block. I know this shit because I worked with some very hazardous stuff. This whole mask thing is about compliance.You can't or won't see it.
ReplyDeleteNEO, I protect my rights and those around me who can be hurt due to some condition, well they don a mask when around me. Of course where I live the sheriff of this county and the adjoining one refuse to enforce the governments decree. They rightly stated that it is the responsibility of the vulnerable to take the necessary precautions. Otherwise, quarantine the sick and those who might be hurt by the virus.
NCK, as usual you don't make much sense so I won't bother to reply to you.
Quarantines are for the sick, quarantines required for the healthy is tyranny.
So if you want to submit be my guest. I won't.
“Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself.”
ReplyDelete~C.S. Lewis
This man in speeches, books, and essays, argued that if you debunk the idea of God, then the government will one day become your God. I agree.
PT Editor,
ReplyDeleteThe CDC clearly does NOT agree with you (neither do the vast majority of the world's healthcare professionals). Hence, may God bless and protect everyone who crosses your path.
Miller, the CDC is now political compromised. What it says it not in line with many, many virologists. The CDC is a political tool. Its despairing that you know not how to challenge so called authority figures.
ReplyDeletehttps://thefederalist.com/2020/10/12/cdc-study-finds-overwhelming-majority-of-people-getting-coronavirus-wore-masks/
But no how many study I post here and other places, people like you stay the course. You never learn, just obey.
Go join another cult. Your ripe for the abuse.
PT Editor:
ReplyDeleteYour ignoble, Trumpian approach is like someone proclaiming that he is not going to obey traffic laws and it is the responsibility of others to stay out of your way all in the interests preserving your freedom. So if you come roaring down the street at 90 miles an hour on the wrong side, others need to get out of your way. And you are not the problem, they are. You are just exercising you freedom.
I am not going to patronize you. I think you are capable of seeing what is wrong with this.
******* Click on my icon to see my Disclaimer.
PT Editor,
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid that you have fallen victim to a malady that has afflicted a great many conservatives over the last thirty years. You have taken a few truisms and have employed them to nullify/negate/dismiss the folks whom you consider to be your enemies - namely the folks in the press and government.
While it is true that a demonstrable liberal bias exists within the mainstream media, it does not follow that this undermines or negates everything they report (it does argue for greater scrutiny and against blind acceptance of what is reported). Likewise, historically, there have been many instances of yellow journalism and powerful interests using the medium for propaganda purposes through the years. Once again, this demands caution - it does not warrant the wholesale rejection of what is reported. Journalists are humans and are subject to the same frailties which afflict all humans (e.g. subjectivity, laziness, vindictiveness and a lack of fidelity to the truth). And, while we could both provide numerous examples of these failures over the last 200 years, the evidence also suggests that the vast majority of journalists are decent people, who attempt objectivity and act with ethical professionalism in the performance of their duties.
Likewise, unfortunately, the blatant corruption of a few politicians down through our history have colored the country's perception of everyone so employed. "They're all crooked!" is a common refrain that is simply NOT supported by the evidence. Moreover, conservatives have always been suspicious of government and its motives. Hence, it is no great wonder that they would seize on the instances of corruption and incompetence and magnify the extent and seriousness of those problems.
Add to all of this an American fondness for conspiracies, and you have fertile territory for someone like Trump to come along and "verify" what folks suspected all along - You can't trust ANYTHING the mainstream media says, and the deep state wants to take away all of your freedoms and destroy everything that is decent and worthwhile. Nevertheless, while we can all understand the allure of such a narrative, we should all also be able to see that it is a false narrative OR, at least, a very misleading one! So, perhaps you can understand that, from the perspective of this historian, it appears that you are the one who has swallowed a false narrative hook, line and sinker.
I try to verify the stories that I read by checking multiple sources and examining as many of the primary sources (e.g. speeches, documents, legislation, audio/visual recordings, books, pamphlets, etc.) as humanly possible. This seems reasonable to me. Also, I'm very aware that I have misinterpreted things in the past and have been hoodwinked by seductive propaganda. I think an awareness of the potential for this kind of human failure is also very important. I'm confident that I sometimes get things wrong, but I'm equally confident that this approach will lead to more truth than buying into the current fad narrative about the mainstream media and the deep state.
PT
ReplyDeleteI do not submit to anything, anyone or any authority or any scientific study cdc or pt writer might submit.
I have familiarized myself with what covid can do. I see young people with walkers, months after infection.
If I don't make sense, you haven't been watching the developing news on the "UK" situation.
New strains entirely caused by the long time democratic governments with depraved cultures based on short term gain have taken to ensure "freedom" gave the virus time to mutate.
Complete "expensive" lockdowns like in Asia are dirty but quick. Lingering "rich" democracies (except US) based their policies on how many "beds" were available, while Asia focussed on the eradication of the virus.
Different philosophies, different outcome. Last time I checked the virus did not come clear on my question if it would respect democratic values. I'm not crying it has deceived us. It just never answered my polite questioning.
Nck
NEO
ReplyDeleteExactly.
Western European "stoplight" aproach driven by democratic values to lockdowns gave the virus a chance to abide by traffic laws outside city boundaries and behave like a german autobahn within city limits.
The US had its advantages with its size. Swedes had their advantages because they are unsociable, but non of it convinced the virus to embrace democratic values or exercise reasonable clemency for nice people.
It's more tenacious than a hedge fund or jehovah witnesses in tricking people "freedom" is a solution to it mutating.
Nck
nck said “What a depraved culture we have under the guise of "freedom."”
ReplyDeleteSo true. When those who choose to not vote in political elections are punished by the State with a monetary fine or jail sentence. When those who choose not to vaccinate themselves or their own children are punished by the State with discrimination, exclusion, withholding of money or a jail sentence. Yet, those who choose to murder the unborn child in its mom’s womb via abortion aren’t punished at all, but praised by the State for exercising their “reproductive freedom or rights.” Hypocrisy, thy name is the West.
10:54
ReplyDeleteExactly.
However one could consider.
If you do not excersize your right to vote. Statistically and mathematically you have "voted" for the winner.
Vaccination.
Regarding the standard vaccination programs. If you choose not to vaccinate you still benefit from the vaccinations. Only in that instance not as a participating citizen as part of a community, but as a "free rider" of the system. Look it up "free rider." Of course a community needs a critical majority of participants or suffer polio as my protestant hood when I was a kid and wcg answered my mom to follow her conscious and her answer to us when we would turn 21. She got us vaccinated. The protestants are in wheelchairs.
Abortion
A State should not cheer its people but protect its people. We are the people. And "WE" have decided that abortions with needles and special herbs needed to end immediately. The "clean" modern method is a personal choice (endorsed by the nation who chooses their lawmakers every so many years). The State should stay out of this personal decision and not cheer when children die.
Nck
Nck,
DeleteHave you looked into the info on when certain vaccines were introduced and when the incidence of “childhood diseases” peaked and dramatically decreased? All of the childhood diseases had dropped precipitously before the vaccine was introduced. I’m not denying that a vaccine works, but vaccinations came just a little too late to claim they turned the tide inthe U.S.
Vaccines for covid will try to claim the same, but while they might contribute, they won’t be the reason for why covid deaths are greatly reduced in 2021.
This is a violation of the 501C3 section of the IRS laws just reading the article but not replies (sorry I'm sleepy and would like something better on my mind :) )
ReplyDeleteAmazing how many fall in line with the edicts of government.
ReplyDeleteDec 21
ReplyDeletePerhaps you should consider that in democracies the government was chosen by a majority to represent them in "amazing" ways.
But your childlike "amazement" is endearing to us adult and mature citizens of our respective nations.
Touching to witnesd your first steps into representative democracy. Keep it up citoyen.
Nck
Miller Jones, NEO, and many others fail to see that the Democratic party is pure evil, with the Republicans also heavily morally compromised. And these sniping attacks on rights. ACOGs ministers are gloating. There are no conflicts between legitimate rights.
ReplyDeleteNCK, the lockdowns "cure" is worse than the disease. The spike in suicides in many cities due to the lockdowns is greater than the number dying from COVID. Plus locking people in their homes is a form of living death, ie, murder.
9:58
ReplyDeleteThank you for your perspective. I'm open to any suggestions to get an entire population to socially distance for the next time a virus hits.
Just a 100.000 deaths to go until june.
Nck
https://twitter.com/justin_hart/status/1340725086278434821?
ReplyDeletePT Editor said, "Quarantines are for the sick, quarantines required for the healthy is tyranny."
ReplyDeleteMY COMMENT - Standing ovation!!
Richard
Hey Richard.
ReplyDeleteIn march when England initiated its first measures against covid I happened to be holidaying in a little hamlet that sealed itself completely off from the outside world.............. in the 14th century when the plague hit the hood.
What containment strategy works depends on the numbers and locations.
For instance this incessant talk on banned about bubba thiel, malm an other minor prophets............. should that be considered containment of the problem or should they be completely ignored and social media distanced to contain the phenomenon.
My point is.
WE will never social media distance from them since they are a source of entertainment. Therefore we are their biggest marketing tool by far.
Therefore mandatory lockdowns are the only solution because of standard human behavior to seek thrill and the pursuit of happiness as our ego sees fit.
Nck
9:58 said... the lockdowns "cure" is worse than the disease. The spike in suicides in many cities due to the lockdowns is greater than the number dying from COVID. Plus locking people in their homes is a form of living death, ie, murder.
ReplyDeleteLike Rick Hames and others have said TPTB have used a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
https://fee.org/articles/no-policy-can-save-lives-it-can-only-trade-lives/
Hello Rck.
ReplyDeleteI have not.
I have seen the reverse though.
Because of the surge in conspiracy believing dear mothers in especially France and other Western European nations we see a surge and increase in childhood diseases we thought "beaten."
This cannot be explained by a surge in Christian fundamentalism but only by the rise in caring but crazy mothers.
nck
None of this matters. You MUST turn off your mind and obey!
ReplyDeleteIts called CULT THINK.
I'm glad these people weren't around during the Blitz. "You can't tell ME to black out the lights in my OWN HOME just so my city doesn't get bombed! If my sheeple neighbors are so concerned, they can walk around in the dark but don't dare tell ME what I should do! The Blitz is just a media hoax to get us to give up our freedoms! The Civil Defense Service is a communist cult!"
ReplyDeleteYeah 4:31
ReplyDeleteAnd what are these Red, Orange, Green lights for along my roads anyway. I see those sheeple stop and ride by the changing of lights as brainwashed zombies. They stop for children even for pity sake, as if little people contribute to the economy. Next time the government will infringe my rights by asking money for garbage disposal. I can do that myself by burning it, thank you very much. There's just 300 people living in my street. We could have huge pyres on freedom street.
Blitz? You know what to do when a nuclear head strikes. "Duck and cover" under the kitchen table, so the government's civil defense service tells me. Such individual acts give me a sense of control and personal freedom and if a kitchen table doesn't help, we could bomb a million Vietnamese and Iraqis to show we mean business with being the land of the free. I mean who needs government, it's better to hate the government and leave it to big business to present us with the candidates they feel could serve us best. After all less taxes means less infringement, means better quality life style. We could even have millions of prisoners work for a dollar a day. That's not slavery. That's just clever. Less education means more cheap labor, means jobs returning from mexico and china given away by the evil obama administration. The entire world takes advantage of us by keep buying our debts. The world enslaves us by enabling our lifestyle. Yeah globalism is wrong. It makes the world enablers of addicts to power as our most important guy has shown over exactly 4 years. We are addicts to power under the guise of freedom.
Nck
I see that Nck is drink commenting again. Always off-topic and never making any sense.
ReplyDeleteCount your blessings. Try listening to one of his sermons...
Delete10:59
ReplyDeleteWhat is your highest level of education?
I am interested.
Perhaps, if it is not too much to ask, you could shed some light on your expertise, for instance engineer or politics.
I might adjust my commenting based on this poll.
Nck
December 22, 2020 at 4:31 PM
ReplyDeleteShitty comparison. You ever hear of 'survival mode'?
Try again.
PT Editor —
ReplyDeleteSo I think it’s fun and convenient to drive 90 miles per hour, ignore stoplights, and not insist that my children use seatbelts. You people that support the government and make up all these traffic laws are destroying my FREEDOM! Shouldn’t it be my choice to drive slowly and observe the laws if I’m willing to take responsibility for my own safety. And to hell with everyone else’s well-being.They can stay home if they are scared little snowflakes.