Doug Winnail is back with another round of seeking wise counsel when making decisions. Apparently, the year is off to a bang since he is repeating this same post. While Doug says to go to parents, friends, and associates for wise counsel, he also mentioned the ministry. Any thinking COG member knows that going to the ministry is NOT the ideal thing to do. Receiving wise counsel from the ministry has a horrendous track record. Remember that many of these ministers were the same ministers that gave bad advice when in the Worldwide Church of God and still give the same bad advice after jumping ship, twice, to be in Living Church of God. Use extreme caution if you plan on going to the ministry for counseling. Since hardly any of them have real certified training in counseling, you may be putting your life at risk!
The Value of Counsel:One of the common pitfalls of life is trusting in our own judgment when we only see part of the picture. When we make decisions or take actions based on how we see a problem, the results can be costly to ourselves and to others. This is why Solomon wrote in Proverbs 3:5, “lean not on your own understanding,” and in Proverbs 3:7, “Do not be wise in your own eyes,” and again in Proverbs 28:26, “He who trusts in his own heart is a fool.” Solomon also warned in Proverbs 11:14, “Where there is no counsel, the people fall; but in the multitude of counselors there is safety,” and again in Proverbs 15:22, “Without counsel, plans go awry, but in the multitude of counselors they are established.” We can obtain wise counsel and valuable advice from prayerfully studying the book of Proverbs on a regular basis and from seeking advice from parents, the ministry, and from more experienced friends and associates, who can be objective and help us see a bigger picture than we perceive on our own. God wants us to succeed and be happy in this life and become wise leaders in the coming kingdom (Daniel 12:3)—which is why He inspired and preserved this advice about the value of counsel!Have a profitable Sabbath,Douglas S. Winnail
Avoid like the plague these wolves in sheeps clothing.
ReplyDeleteI was fortunate to have in my church area a Pastor who recognised my need for specialist counselling which he would not or the ministry provide.
These men were rare and very few to be found back then.
Even less today I would guess.
COG ministers are woefully ill equipped to provide the counsell and nurture so many in their congregations require.
Douglas's advice is utter garbage. So people are not to lean on their own understanding but rather the understanding of others. People are not to trust their own minds but rather others minds instead, especially the ministers. This opens up people to undue influence and having their decision making hijacked by others. The safety in the counsel of a multitude in ACOG-land is a joke since so many are cut from the same cloth, and have been brainwashed by the same lies.
ReplyDeleteAs Dennis once posted, the worst thing a person can do is ask advice from a minister.
More than once when I did that, the minister deliberately gave bad advice. When I replied that the advice can't be right, the minister exploded into a rage. That is, who am I to disagree. It's a cult ploy to shift personal boundaries, effectively robbing members of control of their lives.
Note the sin of omission in what Doug leaves out. Where does he honor and affirm intellectual independence? Where is the personal responsibility of "prove all things" or "you shall know them by their fruits?"
Doug paints a deceitful picture in his article.
Ironically, these A-cult ministers can be useful, such as when my cunning ex girlfriend had her heart set on a new beau and perceived she could throw me under a bus by spilling her guts to them - they bought it - even though accepting the testimony of a solitary accuser is contrary to the Torah they claim to uniquely uphold!
ReplyDeleteI have actually gotten better advice from reading archived "Ann Landers" advice column archives!
ReplyDeleteGetting input from others can be a sensible thing. However, only if it is just that, input and advice which you may or may not act upon. The decision on what you finally do must rest squarely on your own shoulders.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately too many COG ministers have taken their advice to actually be their orders, their approach being 'why would you ask for advice, and then not take it?', when they should be leaving what you actually do up to you, with no reproach if you do something difference to their 'advice'.
The first local minister I had didn't fit the WCG mold. I asked him for some help with a decision, and told me he didn't feel he could help me, and that he was the wrong person to ask! In a social setting, he also said he and his wife had different opinions on some scriptures [yes, she was in WCG]. Sorry to find out later that he didn't join the exodus but stayed with the Tkatch church.
ReplyDeleteAfter this minister was transferred, one of his successors said in a sermon that we should consult ministers on everything -- even what color car to get.
I went to Winnail to counsel about marriage issues and quickly learned that the only thing he could offer was pat COG answers which seemed stuck in the 1960's teachings the church promoted and still do. It was soon afterward that I found out what a disaster his marriage was.
ReplyDeleteI went to Winnail to counsel about marriage issues and quickly learned that the only thing he could offer was pat COG answers which seemed stuck in the 1960's teachings the church promoted and still do. It was soon afterward that I found out what a disaster his marriage was.
ReplyDeleteHow can you call Winnail's marriage a disaster? He clearly values his marriage more highly than he values the Bible's counsel about marriage and divorce. God's statutes are for the little people, not for him!
Interesting about marriage counselling. There were a number of men a bit older than me who before being baptized rushed to marry their non-WCG girlfriends. Some of the new wives became members and then dropped out.
ReplyDeletePassing through Pittsburgh, I attended services and the minister made a point in his sermon that "he found no Biblical example of a church member marrying a non-member". Asking what that was about, I was told it had to do with one of the few girls in the congregation, and she had a non-member boyfriend.
My best WCG friend wanted to marry his non-WCG girlfriend, who was also a heavy smoker. They had dinner with the minister and his family, he granted permission, and performed the wedding service. He lived happily ever after, but attending services alone...
10:25 said: "How can you call Winnail's marriage a disaster? He clearly values his marriage more highly than he values the Bible's counsel about marriage and divorce. God's statutes are for the little people, not for him!"
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Valuing one's own marriage above Bible counsel and "God's" statues on divorce and remarriage is far more noble and praiseworthy than falling for them. Divorce and remarriage is one of many topics that was neither the business of the OT Priests who wrote the rules out thin air or the NT being vague and confusing about what the rules are and actually none of anyone's business save for the people and children with whom it actually has to do.
I'm glad Doug and Sherry worked it out. The stresses and strains the last days of HWA but especially the Tkaches was enough to kill off any marriage with all it's drama, losses and neck jerking changes that no should have had to put up with. Tkach's ass should have been bounced long before "If I am wrong may God strike me dead" came up.
I will go my grave noting that is was the duty of Joe Tkach Sr and Jr, along with their theological groupies, right or wrong, to simply give up their cherished positions, income and esteem and LEAVE WCG. It was none of their business to endeavor to flip the whole church to their imagined "Jesus worked a miracle" myth.
They certainly lacked the skills to flip a church 180 degrees, back to where most of the membership came from and felt dissatisfied with in the first place. Who would have that "skill". Trying that stunt over months where it took centuries of nasty and violent Church history to accomplish was a bit on the foolish side I don't ya think?
At any rate, the circumstance of Doug and Sherry's marriage, divorce and remarriage is none of anyone's business including the made up deities that are said to make up the rules . They worked it out. Good for them. I'm sure their boys appreciated it as well.
Everyone has a story. We are not our stories. We simple have one.
If I needed advice, a minister is the last person I would ask. What would make me seek their advice? Most of them, never worked a day in the real world.
ReplyDeleteSo what would they know?
Dennis wrote: "that was neither the business of the OT Priests who wrote the rules out ... none of anyone's business save for the people and children with whom it actually has to do."
ReplyDeleteThe problem here is that the WCG and LCG ministers make a ruling on a decision, say marriage or just about anything, they say it is up to the member and that they are just giving advice, and then they stand aloof from the consequences of their incessant meddling and foolish and harmful advice being followed. Like the soldier said to Joab in 2 Samuel 18.
These LCG ministers believe and act on the certainty that their "advice" is from God by default. If one disagrees sincerely, that hapless member is marked with suspicion because they are not submitting to "the government of God". I often see several ministers giving contrary and conflicting advice and rulings on the same matter. Is their set of conflicting advice all from God? All to offten their "decisions" and "advice" is so obviously brainless and without inspiration (but full of sinspiration) that we really wonder what spirit is really motivating and inspiring these men. Of course, they circle the wagons as well. Weston, Elertson, Winnail, Jacques Secours, the late Rod King, Winston Gosse, the very evil and destructive Neale Earl and the lot of them are just in-bread men in a COG corporation who take their opinions as being from God and God-inspired. As one of our members says, if some of these ministers were lawyers or doctors they would be fired or sued for malpractice! But because they are ministers they get away with everything.
Dennis said.....
ReplyDelete"I will go my grave noting that is was the duty of Joe Tkach Sr and Jr, along with their theological groupies, right or wrong, to simply give up their cherished positions, income and esteem and LEAVE WCG. It was none of their business to endeavor to flip the whole church to their imagined "Jesus worked a miracle" myth.
They certainly lacked the skills to flip a church 180 degrees, back to where most of the membership came from and felt dissatisfied with in the first place. Who would have that "skill". Trying that stunt over months where it took centuries of nasty and violent Church history to accomplish was a bit on the foolish side I don't ya think?"
Very interesting comment, Dennis - one with which I agree 100%, but never realised was also your belief.
@ 4:41 PM, you sound like you would be familiar with Stuart Wachowicz and his Confucius Institute involvement. I think it's absolutely scandalous and even dangerous, but apparently it hasn't caused any upset with LCG members in Canada. Is there an explanation for this?
ReplyDeleteLCG doesn't care about Wachowicz in bed with the Chinese. It gives them prestige - they think. Wachowicz is the same as Swalwell who was banging the Chinese spy.
ReplyDeleteIf it was a lay member promoting Confucianism he would be questioned about it, but a high-ranking minister? Well, whose side are you on when you teach? And what is your objective in attempting to convert someone? As Christ side, you can't serve two masters, a secret one during the week and the obvious one on Shabbat.
ReplyDeleteLCG can't afford to lose its top elders so they tolerate it. As for Wachowicz, is the salary too good for him to give it up?
Re the above, where Diehl claims that Winnail's marriage is no one's business to judge, was it Peter's business to judge Ananius and Sapphira's lies to their deaths? (Acts 5) Was Christ wrong to question the Samaritan woman who was married multiple times and living in non-wedlock? (Jn 4:18) And didn't the apostle say that a bishop ought to be the husband of his first (mia) wife? (1 Tim 3:2) Brother, you are not your own (1 Cor 6:19) when you come into Christ's universe. And, besides, who wants an adulterer to be his teacher? That's why we, who are to be the kings and priests of tomorrow, judge and ask such questions.
I totally agree with Dennis about the Tkach’s. They and the rest of the WCG “leaders” disgust me with their greed. At least Armstrong worked to steal money from everyone. The Tkach’s just said “You all were fools to give money to that old man, and to teach you a lesson, we are going to keep it all.”
ReplyDelete7.56 PM
ReplyDeleteChrist did not question or pass moral judgment on the Samaritan woman in john 4.18. He simply stated her history and present situation.
A personal responsibility every person has is to express social approval or disapproval when warranted. One example is the person who was mocked for not finishing building a tower, a black and white example which is often not the case.
It's far fetched to say that Winnail's marriage is no ones business to judge considering that he is a top leader in a church. Leaders, especially religious ones, have the responsibility of setting an example and practising what they preach.
It's unsurprising that Dennis is advocating hippy morality.
I don’t think Doug’s marriage should be subject to anyone’s opinions. However, Doug is a high ranking practitioner of an extremely judgement and intrusive cult. Doug is reaping what he has sown. Actually, Doug should be grateful that he has Not reaped the full crop of destruction he has cultivated over the years.
ReplyDeleteAs much as I find Doug & Sherry both to be unpleasant personally, I think it’s wonderful when anyone finds happiness and shares love.
ReplyDeleteHowever, Doug has no right giving advice to anyone and I pity the fool who’d take advice from him.
I learned years ago never to go to the ministry for counseling. They are so disassociated from the real world it ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteDoug Winnail, former WCG hireling, writing to a group of "living" members he believes should know better by now (How long has "living" been in existence, now?) said: "...One of the common pitfalls of life is trusting in our own judgment when we only see part of the picture..."
ReplyDeleteIf this pitfall is so common, Doug must have to frequently write about it, or is Doug just waking up to this common pitfall...perhaps in his own life?
Why hasn't Doug warned them of this common pitfall by now? Why bring it up? When will those in the living group stop trusting in such a common pitfall? Will they ever "get it" and see things Doug's way?
Time will tell...
John
The nine most terrifying words in the English language:
ReplyDeleteI'm from the Ministry and I'm here to help.