From an RCG source:
Throughout most of his (the many) proclamations, Dave Pack often says God was working with him, revealing things. But when things go wrong, sometimes he didn’t realize that he had other things to see, or that God was still revealing things.
When Part 285 dropped and the latest prophetic failures happened on the weekend of Feb. 5th, Dave didn’t leave much wiggle room to reinterpret what God told him. As seen by the quotes below.
So the question is, if Dave received a revelation from God, and Mr. Pack was the direct pipe from the Creator to the intended audience, then why did God give us the wrong message?
You really only have two options:
1. The direct message from an all powerful divine Creator was wrong
2. This is a direct message from Dave and he is wrong
Verbatim from Part 285:
(Dave Pack on his inspirations for Friday, February 5th return of Christ) 1:28:13
"It all hit me suddenly, God just streamed the list that I am going to read to you, and it was typed exactly as I got it, through my mind, without notes or a Bible. So it's exactly what I said, my staff taper ecorded it. I told them, I just began to see things, and I told the staff "Turn on the tape recording and do not interrupt me and then type it just as you heard it." So here's what I said yesterday afternoon pacing the boardroom because it struck me.
(At the end of his list) 1:46:45
"Like the sermon you already heard before this conclusion, all of this did not quite line up until the full picture came into view. And it's [this inspiration] a divine act, if all these prophecies are at stake, can God let me mess up? He had to just sort just of stream it into me. Having the time to process all of this is crucial and it is essential to the last message that all of us know that all of our relatives will be arriving with Jesus Christ and the rest of the saints. Again, you can see God in the process. I was telling the ministers, "Don't think of me as a genius, but it's ok if you do, I mean I am going to fight you," [laughs] I am going to have a little humor at the end here. I was no different than the typist who put it out. I just [spitting sound] spat it out and they just typed it out, I am a conduit, I am a pipe, [from God] I truly see myself that way.
As an open question to any minister or member in RCG, how do you justify the fact that your God, got this divine revelation wrong? If it wasn’t God, then why and how did His Apostle and Messenger get it wrong?
In the coming weeks, members in your congregation will ask, “If Mr. Pack is a pipeline to the Father, then why was the Father’s message wrong?” In the coming years, your children will ask “When you saw all these obviously wrong things happen, why didn’t you act? Why didn’t you protect us from this man?” What will your answer be? My job at HQ was too important? I didn’t look closely enough at his proof? I didn’t really put much stock in his prophetic teachings anyways?
- Will your future self be satisfied with those answers?
- Will your children be satisfied with those answers?
There is no better time to reclaim your life and reject heresy.
They don't hand out money and they don't take people into their homes they just refer people to the government and if someone doesn't want to reach out to the government because we expect the people to actually obey what Jesus said in the Bible about handing out money and taking people into their homes they would accuse the people who are asking them to take them into their home and accuse them of not reaching out for help. Someone from ucg didn't bring me to the hospital when I had chest pain and he offered to take me to a Vitamin Shoppe but I actually could have had a heart attack and they didn't take me a time after that when the night before a doctor's office I went to where a doctor said I needed to go to the emergency room.
ReplyDelete5:15 what does this have to do about Dave Pack lying? I get your point, but it doesn't have a tie in to the original post.
ReplyDeleteAnyone else thinking 3rd Rock from the Sun..."Incoming from the Big Giant Head"......?
ReplyDeleteBoxed In, Dave Pack?
ReplyDeleteThis is the same man who fully knows the propensity of the government squashed COG member to accept doctrinal change in a moment of time. Dave Pack has given the example many times of how the Tkachs' turned upside down the theological construct of Herbert Armstrong and had the WCG membership believing in "another god" as easily as it is to take candy away from a baby.
Dave Pack has also given many times the example of his well studied historical hero Adolf Hitler who rose from a mere wall paper hanger to mesmerize a whole nation with words and came pretty close to ruling the whole world.
What needs to happen to Dave is he needs to be boxed out. That would be boxed out to the street.
The whole membership have been made to put all of their physical possessions into the RCG treasury as proof and payment of their belief and salvation. Dave Pack and his ministers put nothing on the table to validate their doctrinal directive. In plain language; Christ comes on the prescribed and stated date then all is good. Christ doesn't come on the prescribed and stated date, then you Dave Pack and you minister x,y,z are out on the street period.
Now lets see if the white shirt idiots will be so bold to open their mouths about their superior understanding and "inspired" knowledge.
Put up or shut up is how it works in the world. That is exactly how Dave Pack framed his demand for everyone's "Common". Except Dave said "if you want to play, you have to pay - that is how it works in the world, and that is how it works in God's church".
So Dave, if that is how it works, I pray that your flight to the streets doesn't happen in winter.
Pack said : "He had to just sort just of stream it into me."... "I just [spitting sound] spat it out "..."I am a conduit, I am a pipe,... I truly see myself that way."
ReplyDeleteI won't elaborate much on these quotes, but it is real obvious that Pack has some very confused issues.
Malignant narcissists.
ReplyDeleteAnyone following this madman and believing his gibberish, still thinking this maniac is ‘being used as God’s tool’ doesn’t deserve any better.
Rest my case.
It's the same in all the ACOGs. Unless they can exploit you, you're not welcome in their church. Dave just takes it to the extreme.
ReplyDeleteTrue 1210.
DeleteDave said: "Don't think of me as a genius, but it's ok if you do, I mean I am going to fight you," [laughs]
ReplyDeleteDave has a tendency to telegraph exactly what he thinks of himself as in the above quote by "just kidding" it. In fact, he does believe he is a genius. Fake humility at its best.
And in his quote below, he tells all plain and clear what he is actually thinking of doing and did do by telling everyone how he'd do it but, of course, assuring them he would never do.
"I want to make a statement about...me...now, if I became deceived, I will never tell you what I'm going to tell you now...I am telling you if I go off into strange ideas, misconduct, rebellion, you name it, don't follow me. I want to tell you that now, because if I start doing that I'm gonna try to get you to follow me! I'm gonna come to you and tell you it doesn't apply, it doesn't mean me, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's OK to follow me because ABCD and XY and Z. Do you understand what I'm saying? Listen to me now, when I tell you don't follow me if I go off into weird ideas, or if I get off into other things that are total absolutely unscriptural conduct, because if I do I'm gonna paint it with a different face and try to get you to follow me. Do you understand what I'm saying brethren? Please remember that, because I promise you that if I become deceived, I'll forget it, and I'll want you to forget it...And I hope you'll remember it well enough to quote it right back to me...But I'll tell you what, I'm not going anywhere."
David C Pack
December 12, 1998
The man is a tool ...
ReplyDeleteHow many ministers are left now at HQ? Five? Ten? Does anyone know?
ReplyDeleteTo me it seems, that the fewer are left, the crazier things will get. Because the ones that stay with Dave are the real wackos. They’re as mad as Dave is.
So, how many of these madmen are left cheering Dave?
"I am a conduit, I am a pipe,.."
ReplyDeleteLike Muzak, but Dave's channeling only delivers piped nonsense.
I live with a member of Pack's group, this past Saturday before he left for church, I asked him, "why do you put up with such a liar and believe what this man says? It doesn't matter what he tells you, how many times can someone lie to you before you get fed up? Pack is making a fool out of each and every one of you that sit there and listen to his BS." The response he gave me was, "God and Christ have to come back at some point don't they?" They prefer the lies and will defend them to no end.
ReplyDelete". . . the endless cycle of false Armstrongist prophecies . . ."
ReplyDeleteProphetic failure is a hoary tradition among various apocalyptic Millerite branches. Among the Millerite Davidians (predecessor group to the Branch Davidians) in recent time, Victor Houteff was not so much a self-proclaimed prophet as he was an eschatologist (aka, a prophecy weenie). He felt that the chronological statements in the Bible were sufficient, if you were deft with numbers, to construct the sequence of end time events. And he was wrong. The slack variable in his schema was that Christ would not return until the Adventists repented - who knows when. Maybe he had some knowledge of Acts 3:19-21 - enough insight to make the timing of the Parousia open-ended. He died at the Waco Compound in 1955.
"His view of scripture was governed by the notion of prophecy and fulfillment. . . Houteff's unexpected death in 1955 shocked the community; they thought that he was the new Elijah appointed to announce the new age. . . Houteff never set the date of Christ's return; Florence (his wife) announced it for April 22, 1959" (from an encyclopedia.com). Apparently, the Millerites had two prophesying Elijahs in operation at the same time back in the Fifties - among the Davidians and among the Armstrongists.
In all honesty, I do not think the prophets of Splinterdom riff on prophecy without some kind of careful consideration of the consequences. Their view is likely one of the following:
1. They are absolutely convinced it will happen and their credibility will be intact.
2. They believe it might happen but if it doesn't they can effect an artful recovery.
3. It is a religious form and not substance - a liturgy - nobody thinks it is really going to happen.
In any event it is an old story. Splinterdom crackles and pops for a few days after the latest Parousaic announcement and then, after the bright moon of excitement wanes, slides back into the slumber of routine liturgy. Trump was good for CNN's ratings. Splinterist prophetic disarray is "good" for this blog in a similar way.
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"God and Christ have to come back at some point don't they?"
ReplyDeleteThis is an interesting insight. Just as Splinterists, in their soteriology, work to acquire salvation they also compulsively engage in endless cycles or Parousaic liturgy to try to coerce the return of Christ. Like the cargo cult building airplanes out of reeds.
This strategy may be rooted in HWA's belief that, like a guardhouse lawyer, he could find a promise in the Bible and use it to hold God's feet to the fire. Pre-emptive appropriation instead of humble importunity.
On the sympathetic side, I would like Christ to return, too. It's a nasty world for everyone, nearly. Christ said to pray "may your Kingdom come." Further indicating that the timing of the Parousia is conditional and not fixed in prophetic chronology.
******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
Because the ones that stay with Dave are the real wackos
ReplyDeleteOr is it like Winston Zedmore said in Ghostbusters: if there's a steady paycheck in it, I'll believe anything you say.
A Comment stated:
ReplyDelete******
"...You really only have two options:
1. The direct message from an all powerful divine Creator was wrong
2. This is a direct message from Dave and he is wrong
******
Is it possible that there may be a 3rd option?
Does Dave Pack, possibly in very similar ways as Joey Junior, speak in code? Do his words need to be decoded? Might one of Dave Pack's words be decoded so that his real message is as follows?
******
Verbatim from Part 285:
(Dave Pack on his inspirations for Friday, February 5th return of Christ) 1:28:13
"It all hit me suddenly, Satan just streamed the list that I am going to read to you, and it was typed exactly as I got it, through my mind, without notes or a Bible. So it's exactly what I said, my staff taper ecorded it. I told them, I just began to see things, and I told the staff "Turn on the tape recording and do not interrupt me and then type it just as you heard it." So here's what I said yesterday afternoon pacing the boardroom because it struck me.
(At the end of his list) 1:46:45
"Like the sermon you already heard before this conclusion, all of this did not quite line up until the full picture came into view. And it's [this inspiration] a divine act, if all these prophecies are at stake, can Satan let me mess up? He had to just sort just of stream it into me. Having the time to process all of this is crucial and it is essential to the last message that all of us know that all of our relatives will be arriving with Jesus Christ and the rest of the saints. Again, you can see Satan in the process. I was telling the ministers, "Don't think of me as a genius, but it's ok if you do, I mean I am going to fight you," [laughs] I am going to have a little humor at the end here. I was no different than the typist who put it out. I just [spitting sound] spat it out and they just typed it out, I am a conduit, I am a pipe, [from Satan] I truly see myself that way.
******
Something I used to do with some of Joey Thach Junior's letters. I changed the capital G in God to a small letter g to read god. To see option 3 more plainly for Dave Pack, I just changed the word God to Satan.
If Jesus Christ had returned to earth last Friday (as Dave falsely predicted: maybe Pack is competing with Bob Thiel?) , which was a stupid thought to begin with along with his belief in some Mickey Mouse Millennium, and Jesus were to inspire Dave Pack He conceivably could have said the following to Dave, and Flurry, and Weston, and Winnail, and Franks, and Thiel, et al:
John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
But circling back: is it possible that there may be a 3rd (4th, 5th, etc.) option for the source of inspiration for professing falsely so-called "prophets" like Pack/Thiel? Or, do their fruits demonstrate they, driven by another spirit, are simply following another god, another father, another Jesus with another gospel?
Time will tell.
John
@ 10:39 AM, do you have an old copy of Dave's booklet, Is 'That Prophet' Alive Today? Here's what Dave wrote about Flurry's self-described method of getting new revelations, on page 51 of the booklet:
ReplyDeleteA less familiar characteristic of false prophets, and this is related to the last two sections, is that they are often extremely prolific in claiming new revelations from God. True prophets always speak plain, simple truth, delivered without frills!
Typically, false prophets claim that they are getting “more and more insight.” They often work late at night (recall that Saul raged all night), while they produce things that are increasingly bizarre, odd and strange. They also claim, and I have seen this several times in my 30-plus-year ministry, that the new understanding they are receiving is coming “faster than they can record it.” This makes no sense if such understanding or sup- posed new insight were coming from God. If God wants to send a message, why would He give it faster than the prophet could receive it? As a man yields himself to the demon manipulating him, in fact, he does become consumed with his messages and the need to deliver them. The God of peace would never rev His servants to fever pitch. The Bible does not record such a pattern.
I have dealt with any number of demon-possessed people. It is these spirits who create a frenetic, rushed, frantic mindset in those they are vexing or controlling. Remember—God’s Spirit reflects “power, love and a sound mind” (II Tim. 1:7). When what is being said, and/or a per- son’s actions, are continually unsound, it is not coming from God! “Revelations” often occur late at night because spirits know that the mind of a sleep-deprived person grows weaker and more open to outside influence! I have seen this pattern far too often!
Does this sound like anyone we know?
From page 124 of Is 'That Prophet' Alive Today?:
ReplyDeleteIronically, while the PCG leaders cunningly puffed up their members, they also systematically abused them. They did not tolerate any questions about their leader’s “revelations” and “new understandings.” Questioning new teaching was tantamount to calling that man’s integrity into question. Therefore, any hint of doubt was grounds for being viewed as a heretic. In effect, PCG employed a “no-tolerance policy,” which quickly degenerated into systematic governmental abuse. Members had to learn how to maneuver through a maze of constant fear and suspicion. Many lives were, in fact, spiritually ruined.
Dave seems to have published his own playbook. No wonder he has tried to suppress it.
11:41-43,
ReplyDeleteCreepy how accurately he is describing his later actions.
N.E.O. explains: "the timing of the Parousia is conditional."
ReplyDeleteGreat insight. One major condition is who is having it. Back in the day, my wife had many of them. Not me, at least not without an interlude of rest and regeneration. None of those interludes lasted two thousand years, though. Maybe it's just that divine beings take longer to get paroused.
Anonymous 1039
ReplyDeleteWow.. Nice find! Another classic Pack telegraphing his own mindset and projecting it onto others. He's good at that.
More highlights from David Passover Christ's Is 'That Prophet' Alive Today?
ReplyDeletePage 80:
When such suddenly-elevated leaders give themselves over to urges of “new understanding,” they are actually completing the cycle of “falling into the condemnation of the devil.” Too unskilled in the scriptures (particularly passages about prophecy) to resist the “deeper insights” they feel are coming to them, they wind up yielding to demonic whisperings in their ears. As these men become conduits for fallen spirits, they pour out pure garbage on their followers.
The result is that they destroy far more people than just themselves—and in the end they do always destroy themselves! I have seen it all too often, with name after name—past and present—coming to mind as I write this.
Page 46:
Saul was vexed, and often outright possessed, by a demon. The unwitting and fearful (which was apparently almost everybody in Israel at the time) continued to follow him anyway simply because he was “the king”—and this led them to eventually conclude that he was “among the prophets.” Fear gripped the majority—while only a few hundred people chose to follow David until Saul died! The lesson is that despite the fact that Saul had become a crazy demoniac, most of his subjects continued with him anyway!
This account should truly sober you! It is a characteristic of false prophets and demoniacs to bellow, rage, belittle and attack other people—sometimes relentlessly—to elevate themselves. Apparently, Saul also had a particularly murderous spirit, which repeatedly tried to kill David, or have him killed. Saul became abusive. Yet, few had the courage to stand against him, because he was “the king.” Over time, Saul became a “Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.” One moment, he could be warm, friendly, charming, and David’s best friend, and seconds later a raging murderer seeking to kill David!
Be careful if what is being described is a pattern visible in your leader. It is not of God.
Page 48:
…within the understanding that demons are actually the ones inspiring a false prophet, it is God who has sent one or more of these spirits to fulfill His purpose, which can also be to present a test to God’s people regarding whether or not they will follow those He has not sent.
If a prophet is sent by God, every one of his prophecies will always be perfectly accurate—no exceptions! He would not merely be close to the timing and truth of events “foretold.” He would always be completely correct, if God was sending a warning through him. Never forget this, because God is always right!
Anon, February 8, 2021 at 11:41 AM, commented saying:
ReplyDelete******
"...@ 10:39 AM, do you have an old copy of Dave's booklet, Is 'That Prophet' Alive Today? Here's what Dave wrote about Flurry's self-described method of getting new revelations, on page 51 of the booklet:
A less familiar characteristic of false prophets, and this is related to the last two sections, is that they are often extremely prolific in claiming new revelations from God...
...Typically, false prophets claim that they are getting “more and more insight.” They often work late at night ... they produce things that are increasingly bizarre, odd and strange ... I have dealt with any number of demon-possessed people. It is these spirits who create a frenetic, rushed, frantic mindset in those they are vexing or controlling. Remember—God’s Spirit reflects “power, love and a sound mind” (II Tim. 1:7). When what is being said, and/or a per- son’s actions, are continually unsound, it is not coming from God! “Revelations” often occur late at night because spirits know that the mind of a sleep-deprived person grows weaker and more open to outside influence! I have seen this pattern far too often!
Does this sound like anyone we know?
******
No, I have not read that Pack literature, but Dave Pack is into blame/judge others, and pointing his finger at others without realizing that he is exhibiting the same evil characteristics that he blame/judges others of possessing. As a blind self-professing prophet, similar to Bob Thiel, he does not "see" the remaining fingers on his hand pointing back at himself.
Jesus Christ knew the scribes, Sadducees and Pharisees were similarly just as blind.
Someday the scales will be removed from Dave's eyes, but until then it would be best to just stay far away from his eyesight...and words.
For those with eyes/ears, let them see/hear, but will all of them?
Time will tell...
John
Is "That Profit" alive today?
ReplyDeleteHe most certainly is.
4:00 PM has it nailed!
ReplyDeleteI once had a minister tell me "200 tithe payers is a million dollars!"