Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders

Friday, February 19, 2021

When Herbert Armstrong Said Interracial Marriage Would Be Satan's Next Attack

 

A reader sent a link to Herbert Armstrong's 1982 article on interracial marriage. Here are several excerpts:

Satan's Next Attack:

Today I want to speak on what may possibly be the very next attack that Satan will use against this church. I was studying at lunch before the meeting last Sabbath, with our minister there and he said "I think that very likely, the next attack of Satan" — now there was the attack of the State of California against us. There's been another attack that most of you don't even know anything about. It only hit a few of us at the top. But there has been trouble and don't you think there hasn't. Satan is on the job. But Christ is on the job and Christ is winning. And always will win! It's like my executive assistant, Bob Fahey said, he's looked at the book to see how it comes out in the end, and he says we win. Yes we do. That's the way it's going to turn out. At least Christ is going to win and we'll only win if we're on Christ's side. We don't need to worry about getting Christ over on our side. But he said, the thing that's going to hit this church next, that Satan's going to use, is interracial marriage. 
 
Oh the pity. People can sometimes get their feelings all stirred up to a red hot pitch on something of that kind. Their prejudices, their emotions, their feelings. God almighty created us all. He put us here for a purpose. And we don't have much longer. And we need to look into this. Now that was in New York City last Sabbath. On the plane, coming back, Mr. Fahey showed me a letter that had been handed to him from a member. I believe this member is in, yes, just across in New Jersey, just across from New York but had attended the service. And she had been talking to another member who lives in Philadelphia. And there'd been quite a heated conversation on the telephone. And I want to read you just one slight little bit of what was in that message and what is coming up in the church now. And you're going to have to — IF GOD BE GOD GET ON HIS SIDE. AND IF YOU WANT TO GO WITH THIS WORLD AND THE WAY IT'S GOING, GET OVER ON THAT SIDE, and go into the lake of fire with it. That's all I have to say. 

Herbert, being the Herbert he was, now has to use the proverbial threat of the "lake of fire" for anyone that dare questions him. 

I just want to read a few, this is about a 3 or 4 page letter, so, I'll just read a part of it. She says,
"During the conversation, [that's the telephone conversation, that's the telephone conversation she had with this woman in Philadelphia] it was stated that the blacks in God's church are dissatisfied with such doctrines that are not keeping with the current social trend in the world, which they feel are in keeping with the premises of international relationships that are a part of this nation's background"

So we should go along with our nation and the social trends of the world. And this letter also says that they are trying to line up a group of blacks, TO GIVE ME AN ULTIMATUM! THAT I GET ON THE SIDE OF THE TRENDS, THE SOCIAL TREND OF THIS WORLD. OR ELSE! I'll tell you what I'll give them. I'll give them OR ELSE. I won't compromise one millionth of an inch. And if you will, you can go into the lake of fire if you want to. Now, I've never started a fight in my life but let me tell you, I've won every fight I've ever been in. But someone else always started it. I don't want to start a fight. I'm the servant of the Most High God. And I'm as much a servant of blacks or of yellows or of any other color, pinks, polka dots, anything you want to mention - and the like. But I know what God has said. And that's what I'm teaching you and that's the way this church is going to go. We're getting this church back on God's track. That's where it's going to be and that's where it's going to stay.

Next, Herbert is not happy that the college was attempting to not discriminate on race and sought to increase its racial balance. Racial equity is a thing of Satan!

Also, I understand that some are saying, we've got to have racial balance at Ambassador College. Well, what does God say about that? WE'RE NOT GOING TO GO WITH THESE TRENDS OF THE WORLD!! THE POLITICAL FOOTBALLS, THE SOCIAL TRENDS, THE THINGS OF SATAN. Those are all the ways of Satan and now God is going to use us because there are laws in the supreme courts of the United States. They passed a law here a few years ago and they're taking advantage of it. Now, they may try to get laws, use the laws for the sake of the nation, against us if we don't approve interracial marriage. But I say, as for me and my house, we shall serve the Eternal God. What are you going to say?

Then he goes on to say this, which doesn't t compute with the above comments:

Now let me tell you something. This isn't anything to get all emotional about at all. I happened to be born white. I don't know why? I'm not white. They just call it that. I'm anything but white. So are any the rest of you that think you are. You're not. But what difference does it make? If we make it into the Kingdom of God, what color skin are we going to have? You ever think of that? We're not going to have any skin at all. But our eyes are going to be like flames of fire and our faces are going to be like the sun full strength. What color is that? It's so bright it'll blind you if you look without a smoked glass. And that's the way it's going to be.

Then Herbert takes a rapid descent down eh rabbit hole:

Matthew 24:37-38 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (38) For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark,

What's wrong with eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage? How did these things bring an end to that world? Those are the things he mentioned that brought an end to that world. And those same things are bringing an end to this world now. Alright, let's go back to that world and see what the history of it is.

Wives they chose:

Genesis 6:1-2 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, (2) That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Which THEY chose. That's what they want to do today. A black man wants to take a white woman for a wife. That's what HE chooses. A white woman wants to become the wife of a black man. Now I don't know of any cases where a white man wants to marry a black woman. Why is that? Answer that for me! I'd like to have someone give me an answer to that. Why is it our white women want to marry black men? Why is it our black men want to marry white women? Black women don't seem to want to marry white men and white men don't seem to want to marry black women. Why? It's time we begin to think about these things and quit boiling up with our emotions.

Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 
 
So God just ended that world. Did you ever think about, why did God absolutely kill or murder if you want to call it that every human being that except Noah and his family, eight people? They were bringing us even unhappiness and misery on themselves. Sure they were getting a kick out of life. They were doing things they thought would be pleasurable. That they thought would be exciting. They had violence and oh how exciting that was. The earth was filled with violence. Something caused it. Jesus told the cause. He said they were eating and drinking; they were marrying and giving in marriage. That's the only thing that you can find in the Bible that will give you a cause for the end of that world then.

Eating and drinking is a bigger sin than racial bias, apparently. Eat that extra cupcake when you know you shouldn't have? Lake of fire for you! No kingdom of God for you!

Now what's wrong about eating and drinking? Nothing at all if you eat and drink the right kind of — water or the right kind of, well orange juice is fine, and even wine in the small amounts, with temperance. But drunkenness is not right. No drunkard is ever going to enter into the Kingdom of God. And eating the wrong kind of food and eating too much is a sin. Now a little bit of it can be a very mild sin and I guess every one of us is guilty of that. We don't seem to realize that, that's important. What we eat is important. More than we realize. We just go along with what pleases us. What appeals to our appetite, our desire of wanting to get, wanting to have, wanting to enjoy. And we're in a very small wisp of a lifetime and judgment is on us as to whether we're going to have joy and happiness and peace and everything wonderful FOREVER. And we're just letting this time go by, most of us, without taking it very seriously.

The cause of our troubles:  

Now I want to go into some of that with you. Let's get a little bit about the Way of God. Turn to Deuteronomy. 
 
Deuteronomy 32:8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, 
 
Oh today they say that the cause of our troubles and racial troubles is segregation. So the Supreme Court of the United States, in human wisdom, without any wisdom from God, says we're going to have integration. Man wants to go — you see, man chooses him the way that seems right in his own eyes. He takes to himself the knowledge of what is good and evil. That's what our Supreme Court did. But… 
 
Deuteronomy 32:8 When the most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of Adam, [notice, segregation not integration] he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. 
 
Different people, different families or different races, had their own land, their own plot of the earth. And God's way is GEOGRAPHICAL SEGREGATION. AND INTEGRATION IS NOT THE WAY OF THE ETERNAL GOD (pounds on desk). It's the way of deceiving man. It's the way of Satan. And look what its doing in this country. Look what is going on in the 1960's in this nation and the violence that came here and there and all over the nation. I'll be going over this in other sermons that are coming on, like I did fifteen or twenty years ago. It's time to get back to a lot of that again. Because man always thinks he knows better than God. It's all what man thinks is the right way to go.  
Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: 

Herbert's god has decreed segregation! 

Adam begat a son in his likeness. A black man married to a black woman begets a son after his likeness or a daughter maybe and they will be black. A white man and a white woman begat a son or a daughter after their likeness, and the son or the daughter will be white. And if you mix it, they won't be either one. They'll be part one and part the other, a blend of the two. Now I want to go a little further. But man, going the way HE chose, marrying the ones HE chose, instead of the way God said it should be, wanted to amalgamate, wanted to integrate. God had decreed segregation. Man wanted integration. 

Genesis 11:1-8 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. (2) And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; [And this is after the flood now, shortly after the flood] and they dwelt there. (3) And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. (4) And they said, Go to, [that is, "let's get going here"] let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; [skyscrapers, we call them] and let us make us a name, [WHY?] lest we be scattered [or segregated. We want integration WE don't want segregation. Lest we be segregated, scattered.] abroad upon the face of the whole earth. (5) And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. (6) And the Eternal said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. (7) Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. (8) So the Eternal scattered them [or segregated them — He didn't integrate them, He segregated them and scattered them] abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
  
Genesis 10:5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families… 
 
Or their races. The Bible uses the word family instead of race. A family is what you generate, as I say, two Japanese married will produce a Japanese child which we might call the Yellow and not the Caucasian race. Two Caucasians or whites will produce a white. Two blacks will produce a black. But it was after their families, after their races, in their nations. Now the sons of Ham and he begins to give them and I won't go into those genealogies now. But there were a good many there.

Now, at the time of the flood, now let's see. Man going the way He chose, wanted to amalgamate and integrate the races. Now, at the time of the flood, again. Noah was righteous in his generationS, plural. Not his generation. Meaning in his ancestry. Noah, in Genesis 6, in a minute I'll have it here. Let's read this again.

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations… 
 
He wasn't perfect in himself or spiritually or anything of that kind. He was only perfect in generations or in his ancestry. He was the same strain that he had been. And if you want to check it all the way through, and his ancestry on down, you'll find Noah was white. Noah's wife was white. Now apparently, he was the only man left that was pure white. He had not mixed the strain. The family had remained intact, as God had decreed that it should.

But the others were not. They had intermarried and interracial, brought racial trouble they had racial violence and other violence in those days and we're back to the same things today. As it was in the days of Noah, so it is today and that's exactly where we are today.


Alright. Abraham was of the family of Noah. And Abraham was white. God called Abraham and told him to leave the family where he was and people of all of his race, his family, or his color or whatever you want to call it and go to a land where he would show him. In that land were people poaching there that didn't belong there and God had never given it to them and God intended to give him that land, because it is the geographical center of the Earth, and it's marvelous for climate. And once again, when God restores it like it used to be, it'll be a land of milk and honey, which it is not exactly today. But it's marvelous what has happened to it since the Israelis went back there. And the part that they have is rich in agriculture already. Whereas other parts that are occupied by Arabs are not. But Abraham went to a land that God showed him and it was a Promised Land that God was going to promise to him. Now God said to Abraham in that land, that he would give it to his children forever. That is the Promised Land but at that time, there were the Canaanites there. And they were black not white. Alright. Abraham finally had a son of his own through Sarah and the time came to select a wife for Abraham's son. So he sent this older servant, which was really, the manager of all of his properties and over all his other servants, of which he had many, he sent him to his own family, where his family lived, to select a wife for Isaac. "Isaac must not," he said. 
 
Because Of the wrong religion?

Now some people will say that when Ezra and Nehemiah cause people, who had intermarried with another race, to send their wives and even the children born back away from them, and divorce them, and put them away, they said, yeah but that was because of their wrong religion. Oh no, it wasn't. Abraham sent over to his kindred, to his color, but they were of a different religion. So a little later, you will find, Abraham's grandson, Jacob, who had worked for Laban for a long time you know, and when he left Laban, his wife Rachel stole the idols from her father Laban and carried those little idols with her. And Laban came out to find them. They were his gods. So they were worshipping a different god over there. But Abraham sent to get someone of that race, of that color, of that family, for a wife for Isaac, even though they were of a different religion. But I think they got God's religion, once Rebecca came over. She got God's religion through Abraham and through Isaac. So you can say that the only reason for not marrying another race is because it means that you'll be going into a different religion. That's not the reason. Rachel was of a different religion than knowing God and she stole those gods when they fled.

Now the ancient nation Israel is called the family of Israel. There were a family and they were of that race. I have traced it down and I find that God kept that family pretty well intact all the way down through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and down into the Children of Israel. And they didn't mix with the Egyptians. They were in a country of their own, geographically segregated in the land of Goshen and not with the rest of Israel. And they were making bricks and things that were carried over to the Egyptian part of the land and not the same at all.

Herb then discusses the millennium where everyone will be segregated according to skin color, though be assured that God does NOT discriminate! 

Now, that's what it will be like in the millennium when God is ruling. Now what of us in the Church? In the church, God said that in Abraham would all the families, all the races of the Earth will be blessed in Christ. One race has just as much chance and just as much blessing in Christ as any other. Race is only a matter of generation, of begetting children. And that's why the marriage is so important. God is not the author of discrimination. We should love one another and in God's Church, we've been trying to do that. But we find this racial prejudice, which gets down to hatred if you don't squelch it before it gets that far. It keeps cropping up every once in a while. I'm sorry. I don't want to have to get back to it like I did about fifteen years ago or twenty. But I see that it's coming out again and we're going to have to get back to it.

The millennium will be a place where skin color will not matter nor will sex. Sex was that thing that the unconverted masses did before the kingdom of God hit the earth. It was your duty then to raise children of the same skin color because God wanted the races kept separate.

Now in the resurrection and in the World Tomorrow, how many of us will be black and how many of us will be white, brethren? And how many will be yellow? If we're in the Kingdom of God, not one of us will be any one of those. Our faces will shine as bright as the sun. What's the color of the sun? That'll be the color of your faces and your skin. Well maybe not your whole body, but there isn't going to be any matter of color at all. You know why? 
 
What about sex in the millennium? There won't be any. There won't be men, there won't be women. We won't have sex. We'll be as the angels in heaven, so said Jesus Christ. Sex is a matter now of generations but it has nothing to do with coming to God through Christ and gaining Eternal life and getting into the Kingdom of God. It has to do with the raising of children and God wanted the races kept separate.

If we want to keep our stock "pure breed" then we cannot have sex with inferior breeds.

Now we have different color of roses. We have different variety in a lot of things. We have different variety of horses, different varieties of cows, different varieties of dogs. And different varieties can interbreed. But if you're a stock raiser and you're raising stock for display, to win a prize, at a stock show, you're not going to mix the breeds. It'll be a thoroughbred or a pure blood or whatever you want to call it. And that's the way it ought to be with us. 

Herbert then claims that when you integrate, you get dangerously close to interracial marriage. 

Race is only something that has nothing to do with your salvation. It has only to do with reproduction. Now that's why when you integrate, you get in danger of interracial marriage. We have integration at Ambassador College here. And this college was going so far over into Satan's way, that we had an interracial marriage here. I don't know was it, one year ago or three years ago? Something like that. Now one man who was one of our leading ministers, endorsed it and was going to perform that wedding. I understand he backed out at the last minute. And the couple, of course it was a black man and a white woman, they went over to Las Vegas and got married over there.

Herbert wants you to know that he always thought about the black man. It has always done everything it could for blacks in the church. We accept you as members but don't DARE to intermarry any of the white folk, because that is your inclination!

God is not in favor of interracial marriage. God is not in favor of discrimination either. But marriage and the reproduction of children is another thing altogether. Now this church has done everything it could for the black people. We've tried to have no discrimination of any kind. You know how the college in Bricketwood actually got started? I went over there in 1969. We'd outgrown the office. We had to get a bigger office in London. And at the time, I had the idea, because we had not gone to integration in the college. But we wanted to do what we could for our black people. Because they were in the church but we were not accepting them in the college just because we were afraid it would lead to interracial marriage. But they were accepted in the church. And one thing I wanted was an office that would be on the kind of a property where we could also have a school for black men since we could not accept them at Ambassador College. Because I thought a lot about them. And I didn't want to discriminate and I wanted to give them every opportunity that the white man had, and that is as ministers. And we were only thinking of men only at that time because we were only thinking of a school for ministers. Actually what we found, we ran across the place that we did, and when we saw that, we said, "well God wants a whole, liberal arts college over here. He led us to a property for an entire big college. Not just a little small place. We found a little place that would have taken of the kind of the little school. I thought about only having thirty five students. And we found a small place that would have taken care of that. The office and 35 students and a school. It led to an entire college. But that's what we had in mind at the time. 
 
Geographical Segregation:

Now in the millennium, there's going to be one pure language so that all nations can worship God but they are going to be segregated geographically in their own different places. Now if you turn to Nehemiah 13: 
 
Nehemiah 13:23-26 In those days also saw I Jews that had married wives of Ashdod, of Ammon, and of Moab: (24) And their children spake half in the speech of Ashdod, and could not speak in the Jews' language, but according to the language of each people. (25) And I contended with them, [and God had divided them and divided their language in order to divide the nations, geographically] and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, Ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves. (26) Did not Solomon king of Israel sin by these things? Yet among many nations was there no king like him, who was beloved of his God, and God made him king over all Israel: nevertheless even him did outlandish women cause to sin. 

Those wicked wily women! They are always at fault, even though the men couldn't keep their robes closed. Just like Adam standing next to Eve when she had him the apple and he takes it, but it's her fault. 

Well anyway, Ezra and Nehemiah just simply caused them to divorce those wives and to send them away. And they were the ministers of God and that is the way of God. Now there is a great deal more to this. I only wanted to give you just sort of a foundation and the background today. But we're going to have to go into this. This church still has a little leaven to clean up and get out of our house. But we've been getting it out and we're going to continue getting it out. And we're going to continue right along to now. So that's as much as I'm going to take time for today. But I'm going to write some more on this God willing.

Many COG leaders today want to make excuses for this kind of crap and claim it was just Herbert speaking with the understanding he grew up with and he did not really mean it like we perceive it today.

If that were true then why over the last several decades have so many African Americans, Hispanics, Asians, and other people of color in the church spoken up about what they endured in the church? Why have books been written about it if it never happened? 

The Church of God movement is broken and has always been broken. There were no "glory days" of the past but the wreckage of hurt and injured people by a church that claimed it was exemplifying 1st-century Christianity.


75 comments:

  1. "by a church that claimed it was exemplifying 1st-century Christianity"

    So the jews in the Roman Empire married black people?

    Nck

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  2. Nck surprisingly asked:

    So the jews in the Roman Empire married black people?

    By the standards of HWA's youth, the Jews in the Roman Empire WERE "black people"! Ashkenazim wouldn't exist for another thousand years.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. 12:51 True. Emancipation didn't come until "White Christmas."
      HWA was revolutionary by equaling Americans with a "cursed race" under heavy immigration quotas.

      Nck

      Delete
  3. Fundamental question number one that needs to be answered...

    The sons of Noah interracially married, and were accounted worthy to be on the Ark.

    Others who were not interracially married , drowned in the flood.

    Isn't that a bit dichotomous to HWA's rant?

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  4. This teaching displays a lack of basic understanding of how Israel was instructed by God to relate to others. It isn't difficult to disprove this sort of rhetoric. If interracial marriage was the horrible sin that resulted in a flood wiping out most of mankind, or leads to a Lake of fire, then Joseph, Moses, Boaz, Bathsheba, Esther, and others are all guilty of this sin, and are disqualified from being the people of God. By extension this would also apply to David and Jesus Christ, since Rahab who was a Canaanite, and Ruth who was a Moabite are both found in the genealogy of David and Jesus. Matthew 1:5-6

    There is also the inconvenient detail that in order to preserve humanity in the first place Noah, and or his sons would have had interracial marriages, because if all eight people on the ark had been of the same "stock" as HWA used the term, how do we explain all the variations in humanity we see today? We should also consider the time between the flood and the tower of Babel, when the people were separated. If you study Genesis 10 and 11 closely, you will see that several generations pass between these two events, and since there were so few people on earth at the time, it only makes sense that the sons and daughters of Shem, Ham, and Japheth would have more than likely intermarried with their cousins during those generations. The implication being, that regardless of who you might think your ancestors are, we are all related to all three sons and their wives in one way or another, but since the line passes from father to son, and wives are rarely mentioned in the genealogies, this isn't always immediately apparent.

    The COGs have long taught the idea that the U.S. and Britain are descendants of the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh, and this teaching continues to be prominent in most of our groups today. But if racial purity was really that important to God, then why would He allow blessings to be given to these two sons? Their mother, Joseph's wife, was the daughter of an Egyptian priest, thus making both boys of mixed race. Those of us who smugly claim to be descendants of these men, and then look down our noses at those of mixed heritage are hypocrites who ignore the fact that the descendants of these two boys are all products of a mixed marriage. Genesis 41:45; Genesis 41:50; Genesis 46:20

    Further, the idea that our physical ancestry, whatever we think it might be should have ANY effect on how we treat or relate to other brothers and sisters in Christ, who all become Abraham's seed when they accept Him is despicable, and completely misses the point of the entire story of and promise to Abraham in the first place. Because, regardless of human ancestry, the ultimate fulfillment of these promises is through Jesus Christ, and is extended to all humanity, just as kinship was extended to anyone who wished to live among Israel and worship their God. There isn't a single verse in the Bible that says this acceptance didn't include the full rights and privileges of marriage and inheritance. These people were to be considered as natives of the land, and we have multiple examples that prove this, Rahab and Salmon, Boaz and Ruth, Moses and his Ethiopian wife, Bathsheba and Uriah the Hittite, etc. Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:33-34; Ezekiel 47:21-23; Galatians 3:27-29

    HWA is the one who allowed his own prejudices and feelings to cloud his thinking on this issue. Scriptures were cherry picked and separation of Christians based on whether they were "Jew" or "Gentile" was justified in the name of some misguided notion of racial purity, resulting in the mistreatment of those whom God considers His. Those of us who continue to harbor such notions might do well to remember that while Jesus extends the offer of kinship to all, He can raise up children of Abraham from rocks. Physical ancestry or pedigree doesn't guarantee us anything. Matthew 3:9; 1Timothy 1:3-4

    Concerned Sister

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  5. I agree with HWA regarding interracial marriage. The different races are a blessing from God, which means preserving them by shunning interracial marriage. In marriage one wants high levels of compatiability. Marrying into a different culture, religion or race is asking for trouble.
    I've had people strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I've never seen them practise what they preach. In fact they married someone too similar to themselves in my view.

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    1. Oh look! Another COG ‘minister’ on this blog! Take a seat pall and read about freedom of mind and true spirituality.

      Delete
  6. I have been over this territory before but I will state it again. The Canaanites were not Black. They were presumed to be Black because they were cursed to be slaves in Genesis. So slavers found their support in scripture by working backward from their sinful practice of slavery to identify pretextually the Canaanites as Black.

    Canaanites were genetically a people very closely related to the Jews. They are the modern day Lebanese. The evidence is overwhelming. I won't go into here. I have presented it on this blog before. It's old hat. The Ezra and Nehemiah incident also involved Jews intermarrying, not with Blacks, but with Middle Eastern people, many Canaanites again, of a similar genetic background to Jews but who practiced pagan religions.

    I listened to a bit of the audio and was appalled that I ever gave credence to an angry, shouting person like HWA. I am very glad to no longer to be in that cult. It was the best feeling to realize that. So I am glad NO2HWA posted this piece of ancient history. And let us sorrow for all of those still caught up in this web of malice.

    ******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer

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  7. " Emancipation didn't come until "White Christmas."
    HWA was revolutionary by equaling Americans with a "cursed race" under heavy immigration quotas."

    This has to be the stupidest thing I have ever read. I am surprised it was even posted. Emancipation at White Christmas? Even Bob Thiel, as dumb as he is, is smarter than this.

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  8. 6:30
    Oh please, the entire American songbook is by Jewish writers who were as a ethnic group heavily discriminated in the 1920's up to 1950's and some countryclubs until 1995. Just before WWII refugee ships from Europe with jews were sent back.

    And then there is the enlightened herbert w armstrong in the 1920's right after "The birth of a nation" seeing a surge in kkk membership to millions SAYING AND PREACHING AND WRITING THAT THE AMERICANS ARE IN FACT JEWS OR AT LEAST BROTHERS.

    That is REVOLUTIONARY in the discrimatory WASP America.

    Try to get some grasp of history and you will see how much truth there is in my comment. Read up on why and how the Jewish writers inserted most of the christmas songs like "white christmas" with NO reference to Christ at all, YET acceptable to WASP America.

    Nck

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  9. Skin color is determined by a chemical the body produces called melanin. The more melanin a person has, the darker the skin appears. Melanin is also responsible for hair and eye color, so a person with blue eyes would have less melanin than a person with brown eyes.

    So, what if someone decided that blue eyed people should only ever marry other blue eyed people? Would we be okay with that? Or maybe red heads should only ever marry other red heads? After all, God created these varieties, and He would want to keep them pure, and mixing the "breeds" would corrupt them. Now, what if this person not only believed and promoted this idea, but also declared it a "sin" for a blue eyed person to marry a brown eyed person, even though the Bible doesn't teach anything of the sort? Would we be okay with that? If not, why not? The same chemical that determines hair color and eye color also determines skin color, so what's the difference? Why is it so much worse for someone to marry someone else whose shade of skin happens to be darker or lighter?

    We could talk about culture. According to the teachings of Herman Hoeh, the people of the Netherlands represented the tribe of Zebulun. If I understand the teaching correctly, it would have been perfectly acceptable for an American, representing Manasseh, to marry someone from the Netherlands, because according to this reasoning those people are our brothers, and another tribe of Israel. And yet, we don't speak the same language. The people of the Netherlands speak Dutch. We are also very much divided by geography, since their country is on an entirely different continent. One could also argue that their culture isn't exactly the same as ours. So, what do we have in common? Skin color. That's about it. We could also go further and point out that by WCG standards an American would also be allowed to marry a German, Russian, or Italian, even though these countries were considered "Gentile." Why? Not because we share the same culture, geography, or language, but because we share the same skin color. That's it.

    Now let's come back home. Two people, grow up in the same town. These two people speak the same language, English. They might even have attended the same school or shop at the same stores. They might like the same music. Now, let's add one more thing. Their families are both Christian believers, making them both the seed of Abraham, and heirs to the promise. They have one difference. One is black, and the other white. That's it. And yet, by WCG standards, these two people would never be allowed to marry. Why? For the same reason the hypothetical person above decided blue eyed people and brown eyed people shouldn't marry, melanin. Does this make sense? Remember, both of these people have been accepted by Jesus Christ. They both belong to Him.

    The above examples might appear overly simplistic. Most people who share even the same culture, skin color, or religious beliefs have differences in personality, likes, dislikes, etc. All of these things should be taken into account when two people are getting to know each other. But skin color, or eye color, or hair color do not necessarily determine compatibility, or how successful a marriage might be.

    Forbidding something the Bible clearly doesn't forbid, or labeling something a "sin" when the Bible doesn't is the same Pharisaical practice as teaching for doctrine the commandments of men. Something Jesus Christ hates, and warns us against. Matthew 15:8-9; Isaiah 29:13-14

    Concerned Sister

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  10. Yes CC

    Joel Meeker married a french lady and he didn't change his name to Le Mecre, the abomination.

    People will find cause for division, religious affiliation, race, looks, but bronze age division IS tribal.

    Nck

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  11. If God intended to keep races separated and if this was important for Him. He certainly would not allowed procreation, between different human races. Like in the animal kingdom. Animals can only procreate with their species, regardless of their breed, color, etc. Nothing is impossible to God, if keeping races separated, would have been, important for Him. Remember when Myriam, made fund of Moses, when he married a Cushite, God punish her, with Leprosy. Just to prove the point.

    PS. Forgive my expression, english is my second language.

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  12. If God intended to keep races separated and if this was important for Him. He certainly would have not allowed procreation, between different human races. Like in the animal kingdom. Animals can only procreate with their species, regardless of their breed, color, etc. Nothing is impossible to God, if keeping races separated, would have been important to Him. Remember when Myriam, made fund of Moses, when he married a Cushite, God punish her, with Leprosy. Just to prove the point.

    PS. Forgive my expression, english is my second language.

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  13. I find these posts and the heart felt commentators pleading forth with arguments that COG people can indeed interracial marry bizarre, when the average age of the churches membership are 55+

    Perhaps posts about navigating wheelchairs and walking aids would be more apt.

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  14. eh, the day is coming (probably sooner than we realize) when marrying within your own race will be deemed "racist" (at least for white folks it will be)....


    if both are in The Church, it's irrelevant, they are equally yoked....

    if they are marrying in order to thumb their noses at society, they are in big trouble....

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  15. Concerned Sister

    I liked your analysis. I am not an advocate of interracial marriage though I do not regard it as a sin - and to some degree I am not an advocate of marriage. We live in a fallen world.

    The Elephant in the Room: The term "interracial" presumes that one knows what races are. For HWA this was the paradigm in Genesis 10 as it was interpreted by Herman Hoeh. Herman Hoeh dug around in various arcane and sometimes dubious historical sources, interpreted them heavily and came up with a mapping of the Genesis "Table of Nations" (as the translators called it) to modern political nations. In short, HWA, relying on the tendentious work of Hoeh, had no idea what the identity of various races might be.

    Western Europe is a layering of three genetically diverse "races" of people. This would be people from haplogroups R, E and I. Haplogroup I arrived in Europe first (they built Stonehenge, for instance, rather than the people we know as the modern day Brits), then E
    out of Africa and then finally R out of Eurasia. These people all mixed with each other to form the composite Western Europeans we have today. The distinct regional characteristics among Europeans is due to different admixtures of these original haplogroups. These people had also mixed with Neanderthals and to some degree with Denisovans. The tracks of all of this is mapped into our genomes. God tagged us. I guess in case anyone ever got interested in the racial history of humanity. Further, the original humans were Black. All the subsequent races are mutational renditions of the original Black peoples who lived in south central Africa.

    Can you imagine HWA sitting at a desk with densely coded genetic tables and he is going to figure out what the various races are among humans who share 99.9 percent of their DNA? This is so he can actually know what the term "interracial" when he says it. Once we recognize Genesis 10 for what the Bible says it actually is, a genealogy of the Clans of Noah that cannot be used to define race, this would be HWA's daunting task. And then before he starts penciling in his opinion, tell him that he himself is maybe about 2 percent Neanderthal.

    I think the biological differentiation between humans is profoundly beautiful and should be appreciated but not be inflated. The social, religious, cultural and political differences between humans has always been a source of conflict. The politicization of biology will always be with us.

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  16. Genesis 6:1-2 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, (2) That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

    This passage doesn't refer to interracial marriage, it has to do the the Nephilim and humans mating and marrying. Inter species, the sons of God and the daughters of men, two different species of beings.

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  17. 2.33 Am
    But the different races are the same species. They are made in God's image. As in nature, they can reproduce. Making things "impossible" ie, treating people like children, is not God's system. God's system is maximum freedom.

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  18. Erratum:

    Western Europeans are a layering of haplogroups R, I and G. Not R, I and E. E came later on out of north Africa. G came out of Anatolia I seem to recall.

    There are always surprises. The Nazis thought that the classical Aryans were the Scandinavians. But the Scandinavians have some mongoloid ancestry out of North Russia/Siberia. Hitler himself was haplogroup E out of Africa. The Dutch have more haplogroup I than the British. Regional variations abound.

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  19. NEO,

    I won't pretend that I understand all the ins and outs of genetic code. I don't. But what I do know is that nowhere in the Bible does it specify or claim that Adam was white. Or for that matter Noah, his wife, his sons, etc. You would think that if God wanted that to be our main focus, He would have included that information, but He didn't.

    What I do see and understand, is that written into the genetic code of humans was the capacity for all the variations of human traits we see today. I find that beautiful and miraculous, and a testament to the intelligence of the being who made us.

    I also don't think anyone can make the case that there hasn't been much "mixing" of peoples down through history, and that would include the tribes of Israel. At one point the Israelites were even told they could keep alive the virgins of the peoples they conquered and take them as wives. Deuteronomy 21:10-14; Numbers 31:18 These women would have been of gentile blood, and would have mixed with Israelite men and had children by them. These were all mixed marriages, that God apparently allowed. The passage in Deuteronomy stipulates that these women were to be treated as wives, and they were not to be sold, or treated as slaves. The idea that Israel's main goal was to maintain some sort of pristine or pure "race" as HWA used the term, just isn't what the record of scripture indicates.

    Concerned Sister

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  20. Concerned Sister

    HWA is doing a delicate balancing act here. If you read carefully, the subtext is that God is a white man and being a pure white person is a laudatory status. At the same time, he is trying to press the argument that race does not matter in the next life. These two arcs of conceptualization do not comport well. I don't know if HWA is confused on this topic or if he is trying to conceal something in the contrived complexity.

    I do believe your seeing the glory of god in race is the best way. To see race as exalting mankind and not as a point of division, controversy and pugnacity is a good thing. After all, when the Creator made all things he said it was good. The conflictive approach is the ancient, tribal hominid approach - what Paul called the carnal man. Regrettably, I doubt that you will find an accommodation for your ennobling view anywhere in Splinterdom.

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  21. It’s only people like Herb (and nowadays splinter leaders like Dave et al) that claim they are superior and therefore have the right to tell the COG members which people to mix with. Which ‘meat is clean and unclean’ so to speak.

    They are racists. They will never admit it, because they’ll find whatever proof they want to find by twisting scriptures. Claiming it is God’s will..

    That doesn’t make them less racist.

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  22. A research topic:

    When D. Blackwell gave his sermons on race back in ancient times he mentioned something quite interesting. He compared his statements then with what the WCG used to believe. The idea is that the view within the WCG had moderated by the time he gave his presentations.

    What he said was that at one time it was believed in the WCG that they other races were the result of unplanned mutation. I do not remember the details surrounding this. I was in my early twenties when I heard this and did not rush up to Blackwell and interrogate him. One did not do that to ministers in the WCG. You took what was said from the pulpit and considered that sufficient grace.

    But here are some of the implications of this idea.

    1. First, God was not omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. And undesirable mutations in the human line could get past him. (A demiurgic god seems to be a consistent theme throughout Armstrongism.)

    2. God, who is a racially white to Armstrongists by implication, intended that the entire world human population would be white.

    3. When God created all things in Genesis and looked up on it and said it was good, this did not include any races other than the white race. No other races existed at that time or were foreseen.

    4. Mutants could be regarded as ill-fitted for creation - an inferior class for God's purposes.

    Let me hasten to say that Blackwell did not state any of the numbered points listed above.
    Those are the implications that I deduce would be generated by what Blackwell did say. He only stated that the WCG used to believe that races came about through mutation but now they understood that God had planned the races all along and had built the potential for these races into Eve's ovaries.

    No doubt the early WCG's mutational theory of race is not documented anywhere. I would be interested in any information that anyone could provide on this early WCG belief. I don't know where the concept came from. I never heard Hoeh mention this, at least publicly. It may all be lost in the mists of time. This information would provide insight into how the view of race originated in Armstrongism and its influence in attracting a certain class of people to the Radio Church of God. It may breathe new life into Rod Meredith's purported statement that WCG members were the "cream of the crud."

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  23. Well Blackwell was 100 percent right.

    Races are a result of unplanned mutation.

    Moreover No evidence exists about Blackwells preaching because he was the only one preaching that, IF he ever did.

    Nck

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  24. Nck wrote ". . . IF he ever did."

    The idea that I would make this stuff up is reprehensible and my feelings would be hurt if I had feelings (feelings at least in regard to the things that Nck writes). Blackwell's assertion that mutation was thought to be the driver for producing the races at one time in the WCG is documented in the April, 1957 Plain Truth Magazine in an article titled "The Race Question" written by Herman Hoeh. Hoeh wrote:

    "The Negro, as well as the Oriental, is a mutation from Adam's stock. Each is a distinct variety of man. The Negro reproduces after his own likeness, not after the likeness of Adam, who was white." (Page 11)

    Hoeh further asserts that the mutational engine was a planned mechanism by God. In his explanation he falls short of saying that these mutations were guided or controlled by god or that god felt Blacks and Orientals were desirable. He writes that a mutation is something that just "suddenly appears." This view essentially "dog whistles" the four numbered points that I wrote in my original comment.

    My observations:

    1. We need to have good documentary evidence on what happened in the early days of the WCG. And we should use this evidence in our comments. I am grateful that this article was online. It gets insane when people like Nck write from a state of denial. Armstrongists who view these pages would much rather believe Nck's assertions than mine.

    2. I have never seen this article in my recollection. It goes a long ways in explaining why I was met with such coldness when I began attending the WCG in my early twenties. I was quite open about my Native American ancestry. Many people outside the WCG found it interesting and positive. I did not anticipate a deprecatory viewpoint within loving Philadelphian Era of "God's Church."

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  25. As usual, Nck runs off at the mouth about something he knows nothing about. Blackwell did make those remarks. I was a student in Pasadena when I heard this. Many times, in fact. He just can not stand anything that makes his god (armstrongism) look bad.

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  26. Nck side swipes NEO recounting of his past life as if a my way monarch, a prideful Minister.

    'IF he ever did.' Who would jump to such a conclusion without even enquiring the why's and wherefores? The ministry of course.

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  27. Neo wrote: "The idea that I would make this stuff up is reprehensible and my feelings would be hurt if I had feelings (feelings at least in regard to the things that Nck writes)."

    No one here listens to Nck anymore. Most of the stuff he writes never makes sense. To him writing cryptic garbage is a sign of supposed superior intelligence that is meant to intimidate all here as being far superior to what any of us knows.

    The burden is on Nck to disprove what you said Blackwell preached, not on you.

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  28. So, just to make sure I understand the premise of the argument in the 1957 P.T. article NEO is referring to...

    Hoeh states that all men/nations came from Adam, and quotes the passage in Acts 17:24-27.

    But then he begins to reason that since Adam was made in the likeness of Jesus Christ, who also looked like God the Father, and Jesus's physical form was that of the average Jew, and Jews are white, that means that Adam was white, and by extension he is implying that Jesus and God the Father are also white. White is the "parent stock" and line of man coming directly from God.

    A little further on he mentions that a "race of dark-complexioned human beings of gigantic stature sprang from Adam before the flood, as well as from Ham after the flood (Gen. 6:4; Num. 13:33; Deut. 3:ll). That race of dark- complexioned Hamitic-like giants has since perished." He then poses a question about how men of gigantic stature could have developed from Adam's family?

    He then goes on to talk about "mutations" that result in different varieties in the gene pool of different kinds of creatures including man and states that God planned for these mutations to occur from time to time. He defines a mutation as "a sudden change that occurs in the structure of reproductive cells of the parent stock."

    Continuing this line of reasoning he then draws the conclusion that the "Negro, as well as the Oriental, is a mutation from Adam’s stock. Each is a distinct variety of man. The Negro reproduces after his own likeness, not after the likeness of Adam, who was white. The Negro is the result of a change in hereditary factors."

    So, to sum up the above, while initially admitting that all men come from Adam, he then goes on to reason that Adam himself was white and by extension so was Jesus and God the Father. He then equates the "giants" or Nephilim with dark skinned Hamitic peoples, and goes on to propose that Negros and Orientals are mutations of the white parent stock and no longer reproduce after that "likeness" but instead after their own "likeness."

    What he is essentially saying here if I am following this reasoning correctly, is that while Adam was made in the image and likeness of God, who was white, anyone who isn't white, no longer bears that likeness. In other words, anyone of any other race no longer bears the likeness Adam, and by extension God, and are instead mutations of the original likeness.

    A couple of questions here... If God planned for these "mutations" to occur, why would He allow any mutation that would corrupt His original intention of creating beings in the image and likeness of Himself? Also, where in scripture does it say that the Nephilim were dark skinned? It doesn't say so in any of the mentioned references.

    The article later asserts that Noah's family was chosen by God because they were of the original "stock" and Noah was "perfect in his ancestry" but then goes on to mention that the wives of two of Noah's sons must have been "racial mixtures." Another question... If interracial marriage was the sin that brought on the flood, why would God have allowed these two sons and their wives on the boat in the first place, if his goal was to erase the outcome of interracial unions? Why bring the undesired "mutations" through the flood?

    The reasoning here is openly racist as well as being completely illogical and without any sound scriptural basis.

    Concerned Sister

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  29. Utter nonsense that the "burden of proof" is on me. Think of police saying that to you after speeding.

    No evidence whatsoever exists.

    Besides NEO's own disclaimers "AS I RECALL."

    After many years on this blog I DO know that many people's understanding of orginal "teachings" were misunderstood, reinterpreted, plain wrong.

    And then funny people say, "the burden is on nck". At best this was extremely localized or personal pet peeve preaching, I never called NEO a liar.

    I do have feelings about such people, I find them funny.

    Nck

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    Replies
    1. Who alleged that nck had called NEO a liar.

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  30. What is your proof that "race mutations" were "GUIDED BY GOD".

    You guys are insane by stating that without proof in biology, religion, or what science whatsoever. YOU ARE MAKING THAT UP.

    Nck

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  31. It's dangerous and stupid to suppose god was actively involved in creating races. It implies perfection for few.

    NATURE or god did intend the possibility for variation.

    Variety enhances the chances for the species of man to survive ALL circumstances, live in a group or populace and work together AND develop the ability for living and working with other populaces with different set of rules (culture).

    Nck

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  32. Nck wrote: "Utter nonsense that the "burden of proof" is on me. Think of police saying that to you after speeding."

    We aren't the police here and so those "laws" don't apply. We are discussing the cult of Armstrongims and its heretical teachings. Blackwell said the things you deny he said. Prove Neo wrong! You can't! The burden is on you.

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  33. Nck
    I thought if you got caught speeding the drivers emotions had more importance than the breaking of any speeding laws.
    Glad you've seen sense.

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  34. 11:27

    I hope your take works for you!

    Anyway I never said NEO intentionally lied.
    I do know for a fact that COG doctrine is often misrepresented or misunderstood especially by the commenters on this particular blog. I am only quoting NEO himself as he often states "As I recall" so I don't need to prove anything that is NOT in official writings, on tape or in the STP/or MOA for that matter, which come closest to "official summation" of doctrine.

    In following your rational YOU need to prove to me that I never heard such nonsense during my 23 year stint and 20 years blog participation. So prove to me that I never heard or read such thing besides from NEO. Prove it you funny person.

    nck

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  35. NCK asked, "What is your proof that "race mutations" were "GUIDED BY GOD"?"

    I was not implying that race mutations were guided by God. I was quoting and summarizing what Herman Hoeh said in the April 1957 Plain Truth article referred to earlier by NEO. I asked the questions I did to demonstrate what utter nonsense and illogical conclusions Hoeh espoused. I felt I made that clear both in the body of the summary and in my closing statement. If I wasn't clear enough, my apologies.

    You can find a copy of the article here and read it yourself.
    https://www.hwalibrary.com/cgi-bin/download/viewitem.cgi?PageNo=#Page=3

    You will see that I have quoted statements made by Hoeh in the article. HE is the one who said that race mutations were planned by God!

    "Notice that mutations occur in hereditary units in reproductive cells. That explains why each distinct new variety-the Negro and the Oriental, for example reproduces after its own likeness,rather than after the parent stock. The new variety has arisen from a change in hereditary factors,God set this law in motion. He planned that certain limited changes would occur from time to time in the reproductive cells of plants, fish, birds and animals-including man. That is how the various races or distinctive varieties of human beings arose! It is a matter of natural, physical law God set in motion at creation." pg.11 of the above mentioned Plain Truth issue

    Again, to be very clear, these are Herman Hoeh's theories which were promoted and taught in the 1950's by the COG under the guidance and leadership of HWA. What more "proof" do you need? You can look up the article and read it yourself.

    I personally found the premise and theories promoted in the article both openly racist and repugnant, as any sane person would. Hoeh was as much as saying that anyone who wasn't of the white race no longer reflected the likeness of God, but was instead a mutation, which then reproduced after their own likeness. This is nonsense and utter hogwash. It should have been completely rejected in 1957, as it should be today.

    Concerned Sister

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  36. Concerned Sister

    I doubt you read the April 1957 article.

    I would agree that all people before 1995 were racist. I would also state that Science has progressed since 1957.

    Yet you cannot have read the April 1957 article.

    Hoeh goes out of his way to state that people of all color are Man and descended from Adam.

    He even jokes about White People claiming differently.


    "Scientists admitted that it is the white man, instead of the Negro, who manifests the thin lips of the ape. It is the white man who manifests the ape's heavy brow ridges above the eye. It is the white man's hair that is like the ape's in structure! No ape has woolly hair like the Negro! The Oriental and the African — the evolutionists soon reasoned — must have "evolved" every whit as far as the white man.
    Of course, none of these prove evolution true, nor do they demonstrate that one race is more "advanced" than another. The Negro is no less human than the white man."


    This is reminiscent of Hoeh's joking style. For instance at the 1977 FOT at an All Black Feast site (required by law) Hoeh started his sermon by asking.

    "Why are we gentiles to keep the Feast?" ....as an obvious reference to his German ancestry.


    Now I do not for a minute agree with the American Apartheid regime of the 1950's and Hoeh's widely shared opinion that the Black struggle for Social Justice was PURELY COMMUNIST rather than ethical.

    However I dispute ANYONE's claim that WCG officially taught that people of (any) color were SUBHUMAN, or not privy to he promises Jesus made.

    Yes, the claim was that "gentiles" would be blessed through the blessings made available to Abraham's seed and promise.

    But all were human, all fell short of the glory of god and all would benefit from the sacrifice Jesus made.

    I do agree that the American mind was clouded by their societal problems, issues that obviously played no part in at least the African Churches and a lot of others nations with different histories than a MidWestern Redneck with pet theories that NEVER went outside the boundaries of his Chuch Area.

    Are 1957 articles troublesome to the modern mind. Of course. But I do not see any reference to subhumanity of VARIETY as Hoeh calls it.

    nck







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  37. Concerned Sister:

    You have given us an excellent analysis of Hoeh's position. The one important nuance that you may have missed is described by what I stated earlier. I will quote myself:

    "Hoeh further asserts that the mutational engine was a planned mechanism by God. In his explanation he falls short of saying that these mutations were guided or controlled by god or that god felt Blacks and Orientals were desirable. He writes that a mutation is something that just "suddenly appears." This view essentially "dog whistles" the four numbered points that I wrote in my original comment."

    Note carefully that Hoeh does not state that god guided the emergence of races. He says instead that God created the mechanism of mutation. The emergence of races, in fact, seems to be unplanned and apparently outside the scope of god's control, by either will or actual capability.

    This "dog whistles" a back door to racists within Armstrongism. It says that God did not intend that Blacks be created. They just happened, unfortunately. So it is possible to be a good Christian and still deplore the fact there are Blacks in the world. Think of how many times you have encountered that attitude around Splinterdom.

    This distinction between a guided and random process is important to my argument because it supports effectively the four numbered points in my comment. You have added other points that are equally as important.

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  38. Nck, you wrote "Anyway I never said NEO intentionally lied."

    Apparently, you believe that I unintentionally lied. Let me explained the disclaimer "As I recall." It does not mean that what I am stating is utterly without foundation. It means that I am working from memory. There either is no documentation or I have not taken time to look for the documentation as in this case concerning races. It is also an invitation to others to add what they know about the topic.

    In no case does it mean that what I am stating I plucked out of the blue sky. For example, I once heard a WCG minister state that introverts would not receive salvation. He then went through his reasoning as to why. He was an Ambassador College trained Preaching Elder speaking before a large midwestern congregation of the WCG. I know his name but I am not going to mention it. I corroborated his identity by looking at his appearance on his Facebook page. The shock value of his statement was so great that it is deeply etched on my memory. But I have no document to show you, hence, "as I recall."

    This is hardly a loophole for you to wave deniability at us. That fact that you personally never heard some things that I assert just demonstrates the inconsistency to be found among congregations in the WCG. And people were not in the habit of tape recording sermons and contacting Church Administration every time they heard something weird from the pulpit. I never, ever heard anyone else claim that introverts would be incinerated in Gehenna for simply being introverts (even though they were WCG members, keeping the holy days, paying tithes, apparently). I am glad that sounds outrageous to you. It indicates that you have some internal moral sense that the offending minister did not have. But gallantly rising to the defense of Armstrongism by gratuitously questioning my veracity is a non-starter.

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  39. NEO just does not comprehend that God is out of control with a lot of thing.

    Of course to the believer God knoweth all the datapoints, YET this does not mean he is in control, he doesn't know if I'm going to the toilet, NOW, or in a minute or maybe later and if I will aim at the fly or not.

    So to believers or atheists, the human DNA contains all the data, yet no one knows, not God or Nature what mutations will take place.

    HWA speculated based on his knowledge of farm animals that some special abilities might get lost, but by the same science we might speculate enhancement of our species.

    One thing we do know. Stone Age Farmers got their wives without exception from at least 200 miles away. I guess they knew something about population enhancement.

    As a homo sapiens I cannot get myself to think of mating with a Neanderthal lass. However I have not been hunting along the Danube for weeks walking from Anatolia to Munich. Also the maiden might have been stronger than me and assaulted me from behind a rock. Or perhaps a few berries and mushroom and some fermented oxen milk were persuasive for a bad shot.

    Nck

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  40. Nck

    Addendum: I should add that I cited the minister who believed that introverts would be burnt in Gehenna not as an example of WCG doctrine or policy. It was not policy, that I know of. It was to instead show that members of the WCG could sit in an audience, hear the most outrageous things, and never show a response. Nobody in the congregation seemed to be disturbed by what the Preaching Elder said or if they were they carefully concealed it as I did. I sat in my chair stunned. Maybe others in the audience may have been paralyzed as well. This is an observation on WCG sociology.

    I think I have spent too much time on this topic. Bye.

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  41. For the record.
    There is not a single letter, dot or yota in the april 1957 Hoeh article that I agree with.

    My response is aimed at the premisse by some lunatic folk here that WCG preached the subhumanity of some races and that ONLY the white race was not a mistake by "the evolutionary process." The Hoeh article TOTALLY debunks NEO, although modern science proves Hoeh wrong on all letters and sentences in the article too.

    nck

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  42. This is almost embarrassing watching Nck getting his ass handed to him by Neo and Concerned Sister. They have proven their points while Nck acts all blustery refusing to admit he was wrong. It is entertaining to watch though. Keep up the good work Neo and Concerned Sister!

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  43. "That fact that you personally never heard some things that I assert just demonstrates the inconsistency to be found among congregations in the WCG."

    I know.

    A lot of ministers had there pet theories. Some were into Ezechiels UFO's, others foodies, others lovers of sports, others plants and some heavily into BI. I visited many areas, many peoples, heard many speakers over a lot of years. German churches being quite nice and liberal, Richmond Virginia with Rednecks, Canadian Utopian, Australian BI -ísh jingoist, Californian lax and concerned with outward appearance, Mid West as dumb as a Rock.

    nck

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  44. 8:34

    I guess you didn't bother to read Hoeh's article too.

    Amusing.

    nck

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  45. "Hoeh states that all men/nations came from Adam, and quotes the passage in Acts 17:24-27." As you can see I pointed out earlier in the thread that Hoeh stated all men/nations came from Adam, thus technically making them still human.

    What Hoeh goes on to do later in the article though, is to try and equate the "image" and "likeness" Adam had with God to the tone of the skin, or facial features of a Jew.

    "Now notice how Christ made Adam: "And God said: Let us make man {Adam} in our image, after our likeness" (Gen. 1:26). What is the meaning of "likeness?" The facial expression! So Adam looked like Jesus Christ. Adam also looked like God the Father. God said, "Let US make man after OUR image." Both Jesus Christ and God the Father look alike.
    When Jesus was on earth 4000 years later, He looked exactly like the Father. Jesus was "the express image of His {the Father's} person" (Heb. 1:3). But Jesus also looked like the average Jew! Judas had to kiss Jesus in order to point Him out among His disciples who were also Jews (Luke 22:48).
    Since Adam looked like Christ and Christ looked like the average Jew, then Adam — the first man — must have resembled the Jew. Adam therefore was a white man as are the Jews! Jews are not Negroes, as a few colored people contend. The Jews are Whites."

    The above comments lay the groundwork for his explanation of mutation later in the article.

    "A mutation is a sudden change that occurs in the structure of reproductive cells of the parent stock. Such a change may give rise to a new variety. God planned it to be this way at creation.
    The Negro, as well as the Oriental, is a mutation from Adam's stock. Each is a distinct variety of man. The Negro reproduces after his own likeness, not after the likeness of Adam, who was white. The Negro is the result of a change in hereditary factors.
    Notice that mutations occur in hereditary units in reproductive cells. That explains why each distinct new variety — the Negro and the Oriental, for example — reproduces after its own likeness, rather than after the parent stock. The new variety has arisen from a change in hereditary factors."

    A few sentences later he says this,

    "Parent stock always reproduces after its own kind except when a mutation suddenly appears. That is why the white parent race of men always reproduces whites — after its own kind."

    He is engaging in a subtle form of double speak and manipulation of terminology here, because in asserting that "negros" and "orientals" were formed from mutations in the genes of the parent stock, he is contending that they become a "new variety" of human, and no longer bear the likeness of Adam, but instead reproduce after their own "kind" which obviously now is a separate "kind" from Adam, and by extension God, since God and Adam are both white. What he is essentially saying in so many words is that while these other races can still be considered human, they no longer bear the image or likeness of God because of their mutated state, which resulted in the new variety, or kind.

    I could use the same sort of reasoning to promote the idea that because Adam (man) was created in the image of God, and God is referred to in masculine terms in the Bible and came to earth as a man, that must mean that women aren't really made in God's image or "likeness", but are a subspecies of human(still human), created solely for the purpose of servitude and reproduction. This of course would be preposterous and contrary to scripture, as is the above argument.

    The truth is that all humans, male, female, black, white, Jew, Gentile, etc. were made in and bear the image of God. God reasserts this idea in Genesis when He blesses Noah, and his sons, all three of them. Genesis 9:6-7

    Concerned Sister

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  46. Well Concerned Sister.

    I guess in the 1960's the thousands of dumb black members missed your clever concoction of the 1957 article.

    Hoeh is just saying, a dove is a bird, a sparrow is a bird, an owl is a bird.

    Badly written and bad science I agree.

    Nck

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  47. Oh my God.

    WCG under HWA raised a subhuman mutation to evangelist "rank", not scoring brownie points with god there.

    Nck

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  48. Concerned Sister

    Once again I appreciate your incisive analysis of this. It is really too bad that the thousands or readers of this article in the history of Armstrongism could not have done as well as you have. My guess is that many of them found in this article exactly what they wanted to hear: God sides with them in their racist views.

    HWA and Hoeh apparently were never familiar with the concept of anthropomorphism. So the Imago Dei to them was nothing more than the way that god looked physically. At least this was their view in 1957. I have not researched whether their understanding every expanded. Based on the 1982 article posted, I doubt it. (Hoeh became a Christian much later in life but I think he no longer involved himself in history and human origins.)

    Two themes running through this discussion that I have observed:

    1. For Armstrongists, God is both gendered and racial. God is a White male. Hence, the Imago Dei is simply the appearance of a White male. The sociological impact of this profound mistake goes well beyond anything that Hoeh wrote in the article titled "The Race Question." I can understand HWA making this mistake but it seems like Hoeh would have known better.

    2. Another theme is that God of the Armstrongists is not as capable as the Christian God. The Christian God is a Spirit who is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipresent, immanent and transcendent for a start. The Armstrongist god is immanent only, looks like a White man which means he has a created appearance as a part of his essence and is limited by bodily functions (eyes, teeth, arms, etc.), had to make multiple experimental attempts at creating man and set up a mutational mechanism the spun off races without his control and endorsement. This latter point is why Blackwell stated, as a new understanding, that God had planned to create the races all along. This would not make sense unless at one time the WCG believe that Blacks and Asians emerged unplanned and by chance and probably undesired.

    David Bentley Hart in his book "The Experience of God" observed that many Christians and all materialistic atheists believe in a demiurgic god. A Demiurge is divine being who is a creative fabricator in Gnostic belief. It is especially the case that the Armstrongists believe in a Demiurge.

    I stated this in another thread but I think it is a great idea. For all the Armstrongist racists, I hope Christ will always appear to them as a middle-aged, rotund Black woman (maybe like Moms Mabley when she was in costume for her act) with a strong dialect. Permanently. Throughout eternity. Can you imagine what some of the Great Lights around Big Sandy would do. They would probably renounce Christianity and ask if they could go to hell.


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  49. I disagree NCK. What he seems to be saying is that a dove is a bird, who looks like or bears the image of the original bird, and while sparrows and owls are still birds, they no longer look like a dove, and thus no longer look like the original.

    At this point, I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

    Some might wonder why any of this is relevant, since this article was written in the 1950's and at least most of the larger COG groups have backed off of this sort of reasoning. While that's true, there are still many, particularly of the older generation who attend these groups, including some in leadership positions that still view interracial marriage as a sin, or if not exactly a sin, at least less than desired, or not God's preferred ideal. Some point to cultural differences, or God's desire to preserve the races by shunning interracial unions as was mentioned by someone in an earlier comment. Many still use the "Jew"/"Gentile" argument, even though examples such as the above mentioned article from our own historic literature shows this to be an excuse and not the true reason behind the original teaching. I have personally had conversations with people who see nothing wrong with HWA's above mentioned sermon, and have even tried to tell me his comments weren't racist.

    As has been reported before, there was a situation at a COG camp several years ago where the leaders tried to enforce a rule that white campers were not allowed to dance with campers of other ethnicities, or racial backgrounds. The campers in that case rose up and rejected such a notion, and the leadership backed down. Young people have access to the internet, and at least some of them have read examples like the article mentioned above, or come across sermons, like the transcript in the original post. The hypocrisy and lack of sound Biblical reasoning concerning this idea has not gone unnoticed, particularly in cases where leadership continues to try and make it an issue.

    Also, thanks NEO. I'm glad my analysis was helpful at least to someone. :)

    Concerned Sister

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  50. Dear Concerned Sister.

    I will have the Last Word on this. :-) :-) :-) LOL LOL

    For those interested I am adding 144 more responses from real former members, also from South Africa and the American South.

    http://ambassadorwatch.blogspot.com/2008/03/confronting-racist-hooey.html

    nck

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  51. * NEO wrote in a previous post (2018):

    “I do believe that racial intermarriage is a risky venture. Marriage itself is a dicey endeavor. Marrying across cultures, across societies, across geography and across race can put stress on a very fragile institution. Some people don't even smell right to each other...”.

    I worked with a white person who went and worked in South Africa. At lunch time the black South Africans wouldn’t sit with him because he was told that he smelt funny.

    Ge 5:3 And Adam ... begat a son in his own likeness, after his image;...

    Interracial intermarriage has its problem:

    “I soon found out that multiracial families have tensions I never expected.

    “One is that the kids themselves, who want to be just like parents who they don't resemble a whit. My younger daughter once tried to scratch off her brown skin with her fingernail so that she could be white like me. She didn't stop until she bled” (Diane Bartz, My mixed-race family, reuters.com, June 13, 2008).

    “...students who consider themselves of more than one race are more likely to feel depressed, have trouble sleeping, skip school, smoke and drink alcohol, a study says.

    “ "It did not matter what races the students identified with, the risks were higher for all of them if they did not identify with a single race," said J. Richard Udry, principal author of the study, published in the November issue of the American Journal of Public Health” (AP, Mixed-Race Teens Prone to Depression, Study Finds Higher Rate of Stress-Related Health Problems, washingtonpost.com, October 31, 2003). (Of course, studies are not the be all and end all).

    Ge 1:2a And the earth was without form, and void;
    Ge 1:6 And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water.”

    “The central conceptual element of the Priestly world view that is ... operative within the framework of the cosmological, societal, and cultic orders, is the idea that order is established through the careful observations of categorical divisions, through the recognition and maintenance of boundaries" (Frank H. Gorman. Jr., Ideology of Ritual Space, Time and Status in the Priestly Theology, JSOT Sup 91, (Sheffield: JSOT Press, 1990), p.45).

    My opinion, that can’t be proved, is that interracial marriage goes against the created order.

    Lk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

    Zacharias and Elizabeth are the ideal - marrying within your tribe.

    Guarding the sanctity of the holy community

    Eze 47:23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger [ger] sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

    “Ezekiel does not promise landholding rights to all foreigners. The ger’s identification with Israel must be demonstrated by residing, and fathering children while residing, among the Israelites. These qualifications are intended to distinguish between other foreigners residing temporary in Israel and proselytes, and to guard the sanctity of the holy community now resident in the holy land” (Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel Chapters 25-28, NICOT, p.718).

    So while I maybe considered, at a minimum by this world standards, a racist I can still appreciate insightful Gentile women:

    Confession

    Jos 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know [yada‘] that [ki] the LORD hath given you the land,
    Jos 2:11 And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt, neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth beneath.

    "Rahab spoke of the takeover of the land as if it were accomplished fact..." (David H. Madvig, Joshua, EBC, Vol.3, p.262).

    "She affirms that "the Lord your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below" (v.11b). The phrase is plainly deuteronomistic, occurring elsewhere only on the lips of Moses and Solomon (Deut 4:39; 1 Kings 8:23). (Cont).

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  52. “Not bad theological company for a Canaanite prostitute!" (Robert L. Hubbard Jr., Joshua, NIVAC, p.121).

    1Ki 17:24 And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know [yada‘] that [ki] thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.

    "The widow's response to this raising of her son from the dead is faith - but faith that is focused upon Elijah rather than upon God himself... She is the first to know what will soon be public knowledge when Elijah's credentials are put to the text in confrontation with hundred of others who claim to be "prophets" of a living god, but who are found wanting" (Iain W. Provan, 1 and 2 Kings, NIBC, p.134).

    "The woman's affirmation stands out. Elijah may have burst on the biblical stage addressing the king of Israel (v.1), but the first person to affirm that the word of the Lord from your mouth is the truth is a pagan woman from Phoenicia. A later comparison is that between the uncertain response of Nicodemus to Jesus and that of the Samaritan woman to whom Jesus spoke at the well: she was the first to share the good news of Jesus with non-Jews and ‘many believed' (John 4:39)" (John W. Olley, The Message of Kings, BST, p.168).

    The Gentile prostitute knows that the LORD has given the land to Israel before Israel takes the land; the Gentile widow knows that Elijah is a prophet of God before He establishes the fact in the encounter with the prophets of Baal. (For insightful women cp. Hannah's prophetic prayer and Abigail's prophetic words).

    A thought:

    The Roman Empire recognized only two tax and legal statuses: Roman and non-Roman. In the eyes of the Roman administration in Egypt, for instance, Greeks, Jews, Persians, Arabs, and Egyptians were all ‘Egyptians' unless they were ‘Romans'.

    If a Roman of Rome went to Alexandra Egypt and married an Egyptian and it was mentioned to a friend that he had married an Egyptian, and all that he was told that the wife was an Egyptian what then could that friend assume about the wife's ethnicity? If the Roman married a Ptolemy Greek would it be a Caucasian marrying a Caucasian?

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  53. 10:21
    Your examples may be real and truly concerning. I however am of the opinion that the little girl did not scratch herself because of her mother or all the other problems you mention are family related.

    Most of the problems these children experience is because of the racism in larger society. 3-4 year old kids KNOW it's "better" to be white, both white and brown. This is not because their parents are necessarily racist, it is because of what they have perceived in their environment.

    Children really don't see color, when they are raised in a racist free environment until someone or experiences point that out to them.

    It can be big and it can be the little old lady clasping her bag in the metro when you aproach. It can be the nice man who during a nice conversation suddenly says, "but you people". This is what is causing the scratching and itching, not the mothers skin.

    Nck

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  54. “I think I have spent too much time on this topic. Bye.”

    Why is it that NEO comes across as sort of a conversational narcissist some times?! smh

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  55. Anonymous (4:57)

    That isn't narcissism. It's irritation.

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  56. Anonymous (10:21)

    Since you have cited me only in part, I feel the need to clarify. I believe that interracial marriage is neither a sin nor a violation of the created order. I do believe that it is a high risk venture in a world of fallenness. I believe marriage between a Caucasian man and a Caucasian woman is risky as well but not as risky as an interracial marriage.

    There is nothing in the created order that prohibits interracial marriage. There is a lot in the fallen social order the impedes all kinds of things including interracial marriage. We are all genetically derived, via mutation, from sub-Saharan Africans. I believe God guided the racial differentiation of mankind for good purposes. We are a diversity of types rather than one single type and must learn to get along.

    Some people have a low tolerance for racial difference. I believe that behavior is a product of the tribalism that occurred in hominid evolution - what the Bible calls the carnal man. Other people can manage the stress of racial difference quite well. But the population of this latter category is small.

    Figuring out what a race is, is also an issue. The Genesis 10 model, even when given a Hoehist interpretation, is still rather inadequate. Races should be defined with reference to genetics rather than the misconstrual of the Clans of Noah. But that leads in some unexpected directions. For instance, the Ashkenazi Jews would be regarded as bi-racial. They are a combination of haplogroup J and other European haplogroups, particularly R. The genetic distance between these groups is significant. Hoeh states that Jews are White in his aforementioned article. But are they really? He no doubt is referring to Ashkenazi Jews who are in fact 30 to 60 percent European. For the most part, they do not look like Middle Eastern Jews. And they are White like Hoeh says. But it is because they are biracial. Yet they are some of the most talented people on earth. Europeans consist of early hunter/gatherers and later agriculturalists and later pastoralists. They all invaded and they all mixed together. There are differences among Whites just like there are differences among Asians. This could go on. It settles nothing. My guess is that on the day you die you will be just a racist as you are now.

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  57. Thanks NEO for your comment.

    I thought your comment was well articulated and that is why I retained it and then quoted it; as I do with others when someone articulates a point well; see quote below for example.

    I apologise if by quoting you and then expressing my view that it caused offence.

    I was honestly expressing my view and realized by doing so I was vulnerable to ridicule; but I can accept that.

    But here is no need to guess I will go to my death believing that interracial marriage is against the created order.

    Pr 15:1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.

    I could respond nastily to your last sentence but that is not me; though it takes some self-control at times.

    Thanks again for response, which gives me an opportunity to post something else that I also believe.

    Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

    “... The father inspires Malachi to write in Mal 4:5 Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. This is a figure of speech called an antonomasia, which Webster defines as the use of the name of some office, instead of the true name of the person. It is common in languages that when you want to show that one person is like another you call him by that name. You might see a kid jumping on a bed and say stop acting like tarzan or a basketball player makes a great shot and you say nice shot Michael. The Messiah is called David in Ezekiel 37:24. The kingdom of Judah is called Sodom and Gomorrah, not literally but it is acting like [them]. God said he would sent Elijah before the great day of the Lord. Not the Elijah who lived and died, but someone with his fiery spirit, like John the Baptist in Christ’s day...” (Mark Lee, post to a Biblical forum).

    I know that you don't believe that there is an end-time Elijah.

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  58. 10:14
    It is possible to agree to disagree on the term "created order" since it implies a social construct.

    If however you had used the term "natural order" you would have needed to answer many questions regarding Abrahams polygamy, the "race definition" of the northern Finnish blondes with asian genes and the many hundred year olds who ate pork only and all of their lives and many more social constructs and inventions, some decreed by "statutes" but not by nature.

    Nck

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  59. Anonymous (10:14) wrote: "But here is no need to guess I will go to my death believing that interracial marriage is against the created order."

    I hope Jesus will forever appear to you as a Moms Mabley look-alike.

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  60. NEO, that is hoping against hope;

    BTW this is the first time I have heard of Moms Mabley

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  61. Anonymous (10:53)

    No, that justice.

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  62. NEO wrote:

    No, that justice.

    What do you mean by that?

    NEO also wrote:

    "I hope Jesus will forever appear to you as a Moms Mabley look-alike."

    NEO are you a Christian?

    If so are you a new age Christian who believes that God is a woman?

    Are you are woman?

    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and HE shall reign for ever and ever.

    For a Christian to hope that someone would think of Jesus Christ as a woman is perverse.

    BTW, the reason I had not heard of Mons Marbley is that I do not live in typological Manassesh; I live in typological Ephraim.

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  63. NEO

    Regarding "greek unto greek" would you suppose god could appear like a "mexican to the mexican", "the great spirit to the cree" a tunesian to the tunesians.

    To have (One of) Samuel Jackson's (movie characters) as god unto the racists would be a dante scenario for hell.

    Nck

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  64. One of the sticking points of this racist theory is Genesis 6:9. There it says, "These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."

    Armstrong claimed that "perfect in his generations" meant pure white. Perfect was the same word translated "unblemished." Armstrongites also say "generations" is Strong's H8735--meaning ancestry. But don't take that at face value: the first word generations is H8735, but the second mention of generations in "perfect in his generations" is actually H1755. H8735 DOES mean ancestry, but H1755 simply means the age he lived in! VERY SUBTLE DECEIT, HERBERT.

    So this verse says nothing about Noah being "pure white", it simply means Noah was an upright man morally as opposed to everyone else who in the world during his time.

    The whole theory of Christ being pure white comes from Gen. 6:9, which is easily proven not to mean what Armstrong said it said.

    "Atheism is what happens when you read the Bible. Christianity is what happens when you let other people read the Bible for you."

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  65. One of the sticking points of this racist theory is Genesis 6:9. There it says, "These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God."

    Armstrong claimed that "perfect in his generations" meant pure white. Perfect was the same word translated "unblemished." Armstrongites also say "generations" is Strong's H8735--meaning ancestry. But don't take that at face value: the first word generations is H8735, but the second mention of generations in "perfect in his generations" is actually H1755. H8735 DOES mean ancestry, but H1755 simply means the age he lived in! VERY SUBTLE DECEIT, HERBERT.

    So this verse says nothing about Noah being "pure white", it simply means Noah was an upright man morally as opposed to everyone else who in the world during his time.

    The whole theory of Christ being pure white comes from Gen. 6:9, which is easily proven not to mean what Armstrong said it said.

    "Atheism is what happens when you read the Bible. Christianity is what happens when you let other people read the Bible for you."

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  66. “When Herbert Armstrong Said Interracial Marriage Would Be Satan's Next Attack”


    For some reason, advertisements these days seem to be pushing interracial marriages like crazy.

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  67. “When Herbert Armstrong Said Interracial Marriage Would Be Satan's Next Attack”


    It gets even worse.

    Satan's latest attack is to tell everyone's boys that they are girls and to tell everyone's girls that they are boys – or one or more of 57+ different genders.

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  68. What is sad by the leadership over the decades is that: they claim to be a "little flock" which makes the dating pool harder (since they want you to marry within the church), and since the churches of God now are in splinter groups, it becomes even harder to find a mate for younger people. Then they want to keep the anti interracial marriage stance, which makes it even more difficult, for say if a white man would like to marry an Asian woman who happens to be in the church. The older generation of leadership is lacking real understanding and love.

    A certain minister would put interracial marriage and homosexuality in the same sentence when discussing IR like it was abomination like the latter. They should have at least put their stance on Interracial Marriage in their booklets like "How to have a Happy Marriage". But you come into their organization, then they want to separate you from a possible mate. It's cruel. They kept those old WWCG ideologies without putting it into their new splinterred literature.

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