Nothing has plagued the Churches of God more than the Chronology of the Passover and harmonizing the Gospel accounts.
The Seder of the Jews is NOT the biblical Passoer (Sic)
"You would think that the Jews need to learn to read their own Scriptures, for they seem to be illiterate in regard to the Passover. God tells us, in the clearest of language, that the Passover is to be held on the evening of Nisan 14. Nowhere in the Bible does it state otherwise. But they keep Nisan 15. Where did such a practice come from?"
Let Rabbi Singer explain to Bob how they don't need to learn how to read their own scriptures but that he might try reading his confused New Testament tales properly.
The rabbi. At about 10 minutes: "the night of the 14th is the 15th". Uh. Hmmmmmm. Say what? I'm so confused -- NOT. I'm now going to reveal an amazing truth: the night of the 14th is the night of the 14th !!!!
ReplyDeleteAnd. ""Until" in Exodus 12:6 does not extend past the beginning of Nisan 14, nor does "until" in Exodus 12:18 extend past the beginning of Nisan 22." - The Christian Passover, c 1993, 1999, p. 407. Nisan 22 ??? The verse doesn't mention Nisan 22. Another amazing truth: "until" does not extend past the beginning of Nisan 21 !!!!
Maybe the gospels are confused.
ReplyDeleteJesus kept the Passover the night before the official Passover
The next day he was killed at the same time as the Passover lambs which was observed that night after he died
Bob is just following a long history of confused preachers who don’t understand the Old Testament scriptures.
Bob has to be the worst writer I have ever seen in the COG. Not only is he a theological lightweight, but his sense of history is sadly at the bottom of the barrel. Does he even have a college degree?
ReplyDeleteHere we have a self-appointed and self-ordained fool who has no real theological education lecturing the Jewish people on how they keep their days. All Bob has to fall back on is Herbert Armstrong's crap, written by an unschooled Bible banger pretending to be a "Christianized Jew. That's all Bob is, a pretend Christianized Jew and he can't even get that right as he denies Judaism and Jesus Christ at the same time.
Jewish scholars and Jewish historians laugh out loud at Bob's insolence.
The chronology of the NT Passover has always been a hot issue in the Churches of God. Agonizing efforts are made to harmonize not only the NT accounts as in The Synoptics vs John, but also with the Exodus tale. I had many a controversy erupt between members and ministers and ministers and HQ over the years. One key to see there even is a problem is that the Gospel of John has Jesus living through three years in John's story by noting three Passovers in the book. The Synoptics only have a one year ministry of Jesus with one Passover. Both can't be right. John also has the driving out of the money changers right at the beginning Jesus first of three year ministry. The Synoptics use that story as a reason for Jesus arrest at the end of Jesus life just before crucifixion. Again, both can't be right.
ReplyDeleteThe original anonymous authors of the Gospels all wrote in high Greek. This is not the stuff of humble and illiterate fishermen. It might also be suspected that they did not understand the nuance of Jewish practice and belief and took liberties that added to the confusion.
This topic when I was a mere pup in the ministry almost got me arrested with the member who was marching up and down in services with his disagreements with the church on the topic. He forced me to call the police as I had no clue what to do. We had no "when this happens" class I can recall. The cop said he could arrest us both and then we could work it out. I just kept on with the sermon and let it pass the best I could. It was my introduction to "Hmmm, these folk aren't like the more calm Presbyterians I grew up with" lol. I don't miss it!
And too...
ReplyDeleteThe Apostle Paul also pulled this "the Jews don't even know how to read their own book" stunt in 2 Cor 3:14 where he turned the veil worn by Moses when he was not speaking to God to shield the people from God's glory etc, into a blindfold.
"…13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were closed. For to this day the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant. It has not been lifted, because only in Christ can it be removed. 15 And even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.…"
This is NOT how the original is told nor is it the reason Moses wore the veil. Paul is manipulating the original story to his advantage but is misrepresenting it.
The Radiant Face of Moses. There is NOTHING in the story about the fading of the glory on Moses face. That's a twist by Paul to make the updated and mistaken point about it all. Moses face was radiant because of the Law being given to him by God. The veil off when Moses spoke to the people. He put it on AFTER speaking to them about the glory of the Law. When Moses spoke with God, he took it off.
Paul, like so many in the NT, made the OT mean what it never meant with just a bit of a twist in his favor.
Exodus 34: 29 When Moses came down from Mount Sinai with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands, he was not aware that his face was radiant because he had spoken with the Lord. 30 When Aaron and all the Israelites saw Moses, his face was radiant, and they were afraid to come near him. 31 But Moses called to them; so Aaron and all the leaders of the community came back to him, and he spoke to them. 32 Afterward all the Israelites came near him, and he gave them all the commands the Lord had given him on Mount Sinai.
33 When Moses finished speaking to them, he put a veil over his face. 34 But whenever he entered the Lord’s presence to speak with him, he removed the veil until he came out. And when he came out and told the Israelites what he had been commanded, 35 they saw that his face was radiant. Then Moses would put the veil back over his face until he went in to speak with the Lord.
So in this one way, Paul and Bob are alike in their "the Jews don't even understand their own scriptures."
And one more thing.
ReplyDeleteDo you know what the last thing Jesus said at the meal/Passover Seder was?
"Ok, everyone over on this side of the table for one final picture" :)
This would mean that Christ ate the Last Supper with his disciples on the eve of the 14th, was crucified on the afternoon of the 14th when the lambs were offered, and the Passover supper was on the eve of the 15th after Christ died. I have not looked in the Bible to trace this through. Maybe I will one day. I honestly didn't know there was a conflict between John and the Synoptics on this point until I watched this video. A useful analysis of the context can be found here:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/story/john.html
I think Hoeh used the logistics of the Exodus to support the 14th version. But the logistics of the Exodus are so uncertain and complex, I don't know how they could be used to support anything. Your talking about the movement of a huge number of people in a tiny little period of time. This picture needs some interpretation.
I recall a small clash at a WCG Bible Study in Tyler, Texas back in the late Seventies. The idea was being circulated that the Passover was on he eve Nissan 15th (aka, NTBMR) instead of eve Nissan 14th. This I am really uncertain about but I think it had to do with the GTA's book "The Real Jesus" but it has been too long ago. The minister pronounced that the 14th was the day and he was not going to do any reading anywhere else except in the Bible which supported the 14th. At that time, that was good enough for me. But apparently the Biblical account is more complex than he thought.
The point that is easy to miss here, if you get your undies in a bundle over the dates and the sequence of events, is that if you are a Christian and Christ is your living Passover, the timing is only of historical interest.
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Dennis wrote "This is NOT how the original is told nor is it the reason Moses wore the veil. Paul is manipulating the original story to his advantage but is misrepresenting it."
ReplyDeleteWhat is causing your heartburn is something called christotelicity. It is a long story that I do not want to write it out and a summary can be found here:
https://peteenns.com/episode-117-reading-the-old-testament-christotelicly/
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I have written the timeline of Christ's last day/hours.
ReplyDeleteI thought of contributing to the above thread, but it's too long.
It's how the synopics and John could be reconciled!
It here - 24 pages but you can glance quickly:
THAT NIGHT COULDN’T BE THE FOURTEENTH!
https://wulfstein.org/2021/03/17/that-night-was-the-thirteenth/
JH
I have not researched this yet, but if this view turns out to have integrity, it does make sense at the symbolic/spiritual level. In the cycle that Christ was to give himself in sacrifice, why would he want to partake of the lamb that was a symbol for him by eating the Seder? There was no need to partake of the symbolic lamb when the real Lamb of God was to be sacrificed during this cycle replacing the symbolic lamb. This supercession of the symbols by Christ would then result in the New Testament magnification of the law pertaining to the Passover. Like it says in Isaiah (pardon my cristotelicity):
ReplyDelete"The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable."
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Mr. Rabbi Tovia singer is smarter than the church of God would ever be.
ReplyDeleteTwo calendars
ReplyDeleteMk 14:12a And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover,
Mk 114;12b Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?” (NIV).
Jn 18:28 Then the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness the Jews did not enter the palace; they wanted to be able to eat the Passover (NIV).
1 Cor 5:7bFor even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
“The synoptic Gospels present the last supper as a Passover meal that took place at the normal time, i.e., on 15 Nisan, which began at sundown on Thursday. (The lambs were sacrificed earlier that day, i.e., on 14 Nisan [cf. Mark 14:12].) The meal was eaten that night, and Jesus was arrested, given a mockery of a trial, and crucified on the same day, i.e., by Friday afternoon... In the Gospel of John, on the other hand, Jesus’ death takes place at the time of the sacrificing of the Passover lambs, before eating of the Passover meal (cf. John 18:28). On this reckoning, 15 Nisan began twenty-four hours later than in the Synoptics, i.e., on Friday at sundown...” (Donald A. Hagner, Matthew 14-28, WBC, p.763).
“The most natural reading of the Synoptists shows the Last Supper there to be the Passover. The most natural reading of John shows that Jesus was crucified at the very time the Passover victims were slain in the Temple. While it is undoubtedly possible to interpret the accounts in such a way that we make them tell the same story, it seems best to see them as the result of following different calendars. According to the calendar Jesus was following the meal was the Passover. But the Temple authorities followed another, according to which the sacrificial victims were slain the next day. John appears to make use of this to bring out the truth that Christ was slain as our Passover” (Leon Morris, The Gospel According to John, Revised, NICNT, pp.694-695).
"To relate John's passion chronology with that of the Synoptics, who clearly describe the Last Supper as a Passover meal, would require a separate excursus; suffice it to say here that while John times his passion narrative with references to the official temple date of the Passover, our Lord and his disciples, following (it may be) another calendar, observing the festival earlier" (F.F. Bruce, The Gospels & Epistles of John, p.279).
“So also I. H. Marshall, “Our conclusion, then, is that Jesus held a Passover meal earlier than the official Jewish date, and that he was able to do so as the result of calendar differences among the Jews” (Last Supper and Lord’s Supper [Exter, 1980], p.75)” (Leon Morris, The Gospel According to John, Revised, NICNT, p.695).
Passover in the Millennium
Eze 45:21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.
Eze 45:22 And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin offering.
“...the focus of the celebration has changed. On the day of the Passover, the prince is to provide for himself and the people a bull for a purification offering (hatta't).This shift parallels the change in the nature of the sacrificial victims. Whereas the function of the original Passover was apotropaic, to ward off Yahweh's lethal actions, and subsequent celebrations provided annual reminders of the original event, in the Ezekielian ordinance the memorial purposes of the Passover are overshadowed by the purgative concern. Thus, while the Passover, the most fundamental of all Israelite celebrations, is retained in Ezekiel's new religions order, its nature and significance has been changed” (Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel Chapters 25-28, NICOT, p.666).
John 13:29 For some of them thought, because Judas had the money bag, that Jesus had said unto him, “Buy those things that we have need of for the feast,” or that he should give something to the poor. — some of the other disciples thought Judas was taking the money to buy for the feast. This indicates that buying and selling were still going on, which demonstrates that Passover hadn’t arrived yet otherwise everyone would be keeping Passover at home and none would be engaging in commercial activities. Second, if that night were the Passover, the other disciples would be wondering why Judas didn’t wait until morning (boqer) before venturing out of the house (Ex 12:22; Num 9:12); but none did.
ReplyDeleteObviously Bob has stopped by Banned as he has now corrected his misspelling of Passoer in his article :)
ReplyDeleteBob is so pathetically predictable! He hates this blog and yet it turns him on so much that he checked us out numerous times a day.
ReplyDeleteBob is so pathetically predictable!
ReplyDeleteGood thing Bob is around to show everyone why they were wrong. [= has a different understanding than him]. If he does scan Banned (or gets updates from his minions) I wonder if he seriously considers he may be wrong about something but doesn't want to admit it. [The old "If I admit I'm wrong about this, my flock will think I could be wrong about other things".]
With John vs Synoptics, I always thought it was the Synoptics that were correct, and John's account looked out of place. The explanation had to do with the way terms were used, such as, Passover referring to the Passover night and the Days of Unleavened Bread together.
And that the Pharisees and Sadducees differed in 14th/15th, and the way to count Pentecost, and the Sadducees, by controlling the Temple, dictated how things ran.
Leon Morris writes:
ReplyDelete"The evidence is thus confusing, and it is in the least surprising that scholars have come to very different conclusions. I do not see how we can be dogmatic in our present state of knowledge. The most natural reading of the Synoptists shows the Last Supper there to be the Passover:
Mt 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
Mt 26:18 The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Mt 26:21 And as they did eat...
Mk 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
Mk 14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city ... and they made ready the passover.
Mk 14:18 And as they sat and did eat...
Lk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
Lk 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
Lk 22:11 The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Lk 22:13 and they made ready the passover.
Lk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Lk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
Mk 14:12 killed [thuo] the [to] passover [pascha]
Ex 12:21 slay [thuo] the [to] passover [pascha] (Brenton, LXX)
Dt 16:2 sacrifice [thuo] the [to] passover [pascha] (Brenton, LXX)
“The Greek ... "to slaughter the Passover lamb," is taken from the LXX (e.g., Exod 12:21; Deut 16:2; see G. B. Gray, Sacrifice in the Old Testament [Oxford: Clarendon, 1925] 376-82)” (Craig A. Evans, Mark 8:27-16:20, WBC, p.373).
"... "when they were slaughtering the Passover lamb." Casey (Aramaic Sources, 233) argues that the subject of the verb ... "they were slaughtering," refers not to the crowd in general (pace Taylor, 537, and Gundry, 820, who see it as a customary imperfect tense) but to Jesus and his disciples, who are depicted as having slaughtered the "Passover lamb" (which is the meaning of pascha) in the temple precincts. Given the meaning of the question that the disciples will shortly ask Jesus, Casey is probably correct. According to Jewish convention, Jesus would have slit the animal's throat, its blood would been drained into a silver of gold basin by a priest, and the priest would have taken the basin to the altar... Throughout the course of the day thousands of lambs would have been slaughtered in this fashion” (Craig A. Evans, Mark 8:27-16:20, WBC, p.373).
“While it is undoubtedly possible to interpret the accounts in such a way that we make them tell the same story, it seems best to see them as the result of following different calendars" (Leon Morris, The Gospel According to John, Revised, NICNT, pp.694-695).
one shouldn't look to the Jews for understanding...yes, they are the keepers of the oracles of God, but that doesn't mean they understand them.
ReplyDeletethe guy starts out by saying that Jesus was crucified on the first day of passover....that alone shows he doesn't understand.
not to worry, the day is coming when ALL will understand....
and....the seder was developed by the rabbis after the temple was destroyed in AD70...the seder was unknown in Jesus' day...
ReplyDeleteLeon Lamb Morris was an Australian New Testament scholar. Born in Lithgow, New South Wales, Morris was ordained to the Anglican ministry in 1938 (he don't even know what a Sabbath is, not to mention the Passover and others). He earned Bachelor of Divinity in 1943 and Master of Theology, both from University of London external system.
ReplyDeletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Morris
Are you not mad to quote him?
Some of the 14th/15th passover confusion may have its beginnings in Josiah's passover in 2 Chronicles 35. Each household was to sacrifice a lamb at the beginning of the 14th, at twilight, from sunset to full darkness, and eat it that night, on the 14th. Instead the job of sacrificing lambs were done by the Levites, and the job was so much for them the lambs were not ready to be eaten UNTIL NIGHT - verse 14 - which means an error was made in that the lambs were not killed until the daylight portion of the 14th - verse 1 - rather than the evening before, and the night in which they were eaten was the 15th. The tradition may then have developed that, yes, the lambs were killed on the 14th but the eating and accompanying service called the "passover" was on the 15th.
ReplyDeleteIt appears 1:47 that you can’t argue against Leon Morris’ interpretation, so you attack the man.
ReplyDeleteLk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.
Lk 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
Lk 22:11 The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Lk 22:13 and they made ready the passover.
Lk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Lk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
Prove that you can argue against Leon Morris’ argument, by answering these two question: Is Luke wrong in describing this as a Passover meal? And why? (Please don’t provide a counter without addressing these questions).
Ac 17:28b ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
Tit 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are always liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Was Paul “mad” to quote the Greek poets, Aratus and Ephemendes?
“By such maxims, Paul is not suggesting that God is to be thought of in terms of the Zeus of Greek polytheism or Stoci pantheism. He is rather arguing that the poets his hearers recognized as authorities have to some extent corroborated his message...” (Richard N. Longenecker, Acts, EBC, Vol.9, p.476).
I quote Leon Morris because I agree with him and he can express it more eloquently than me.
One of my favourite quotes is from an insightful gentile woman:
2Ch 9:8 Blessed be the LORD thy God, which delighted in thee to set thee on his throne, to be king for the LORD thy God: because thy God loved Israel, to establish them for ever, therefore made he thee king over them, to do judgment and justice.
If the COG’s really understood what this woman understood they would not be preaching that Jesus Christ will be on the earth, literally sitting on the throne of David, during the Millennium.
Somehow I knew this posting would go from the ignorant statements of Bob Thiel reminding the Jews that they don't even understand their own scriptures to everyone's idea on the true chronology of the Passover.
ReplyDeleteBut Dennis, I am supporting the Jewish understanding of the timing of the Passover, providing support that Bob Thiel is wrong.
ReplyDeleteEx 12:6 Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the people of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. (NIV).
Ex 12:6 and shall kill it the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel between the evenings (ben ha‘arbayim).
The question is whether the modern western definition of “twilight” is equivalent to the ancient Hebrew “ben ha‘arbayim”.
I don’t agree that it is.
Timing of Daily Burnt Offerings
Nu 28:3 And thou shalt say unto them, This is the offering made by fire which ye shall offer unto the LORD; two lambs of the first year without spot day by day, for a continual burnt offering.
Nu 28:4 The lamb one shalt thou offer in the morning, and the lamb second you shall offer between the evenings;
"In describing the morning and evening sacrifices, the evening sacrifice is listed and described second. The scriptures are quite consistent in this. In Exodus 29:38-42 and Numbers 28:3-8, the RSV, the NIV, and others, especially the various "literal" translations, often use the words "first lamb" to refer to the morning sacrifice, or "second lamb" to refer to the evening sacrifice. And this follows the wording of the original Hebrew. If the evening sacrifice was after sundown, it would not be the second of the two daily sacrifices, but the first" (Sanford Beattie, Resolving the Passover Controversy, p.5).
1 Cor 5:7b For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Jn 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
It can be argued back and forward, but for me Christ was killed between the evenings, [on Friday afternoon, April 7, AD30], and fulfilled the Scriptures as foreshadowed by the time of day the original passover was sacrificed.
6.18 That's why people of all trade and color come and visit your site regularly, even one who could preach with great confidence this and that; but couldn't spell passover!
ReplyDeleteAnon Mar 25 @3:56pm & Anon Mar 26 @6:48pm:
ReplyDeleteBein Ha’arabayim is the Hebrew expression translated twilight, evening, dusk, or between the two evenings. This is the period between actual sunset (first evening) and total darkness (second evening). This period was the overlapping boundary between the previous day and the following day in biblical times. In comparison, today we have an atomic clock that can inform us exactly when 12:00:00am is to signal the start of the new day.
Ba-erev is used interchangeably with Bein Ha'arabayim:
EXODUS 16:12-13 … “Speak to them, saying, ‘At twilight (Heb Bein Ha’arabayim) you shall eat meat, and in the morning you shall be filled with bread, And you shall know that I am YHVH your God.’” So it was that quail came up at evening (Heb Ba-erev) and covered the camp, and in the morning the dew lay all around the camp.
Note: Depending on context, ba-erev can either be referring to the beginning or ending part of the day.
Example where ba-erev is at the end of the day:
EXODUS 12:18 … In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening (Heb ba-erev), you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening (Heb ba-erev).
Note: If the first ba-erev was at the beginning of the 14th, the second must also be at the beginning of the 21st which would not make sense because no leaven is eaten until the end of the 21st day. Therefore, both ba-erev refer to the end of the 14th and 21st.
Example where ba-erev is at the beginning of the day:
DEUTERONOMY 16:4 … And no leaven shall be seen among you in all your territory for seven days, nor shall any of the meat which you sacrifice the first day at twilight (Heb ba-erev) remain overnight until morning.
Note: The ‘first day’ mentioned is the First Day of Unleavened Bread. The ba-erev is at the beginning of the 15th which is also the end of the 14th that’s why the passover sacrifice is mentioned. This is why the Rabbi said 'the night of the 14th is the 15th'.
Here is a video of the modern-day Samaritan Passover - <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeZnFTVr1BU>link</a>
ReplyDelete12:19 Here is a video of the modern-day Samaritan Passover
ReplyDeletecouldn't get to the link,
but CoGs and the Samaritans were having the same night?!
I hope this link works ...
ReplyDeleteIt's not the same night, last year it was about a month later. What's interesting is the time of day when they slaughter the lamb - after sunset.
Thyatira, Succession, and Jezebel. Great sermon choice for Passover/NTBMO/ULB, Bob!
ReplyDelete11:50 writes:
ReplyDeleteBein Ha’arabayim is the Hebrew expression translated twilight, evening, dusk, or between the two evenings. This is the period between actual sunset (first evening) and total darkness (second evening).
Looks like we will have to agree to disagree.
This is from Fred Coulter’s The Christian Passover:
ReplyDelete“At sunset,” or ba erev, is a very short period of time. It begins when the sun appears to touch the horizon, and ends when the sun drops below the horizon. The total duration of its setting is no more than 3-5 minutes” (Pg 35).
— in short, Fred Coulter is saying “phrase ba erev, or “at sunset,” designates the end of one day and the beginning of the next day — a period of no more than 3-5 minute.
Earlier, Fred defines ben ha arbayim as the time between sunset and dark.
“Between the two evenings’ is usually taken to mean between sundown and dark, a period of about an hour or so....” (Pg 31).
Also are the two periods ba·erev followed by ben ha arbayim? Fred Coulter answers this question in the affirmative in numerous places:
The chronological events that are recorded in Exodus 16 clearly define ben ha arbayim— “between the two evenings,” or “between the setting times”—as the time period that immediately FOLLOWS sunset, or ba erev (Pg 48).
We have examined the Scriptural evidence, and we have found irrefutable proof that ben ha arbayim— “between the two evenings,” or “between the setting-times”—begins immediately after the day has ended at sunset, or ba erev (Pg 50).
If so, then two lambs for Passover would be needed, MAGIC! one at ben ha arbayim to fulfil Exodus 12:6 and another at ba·erev to fulfil Deuteronomy 16:6.
https://wulfstein.org/2021/01/07/a-critique-of-fred-coulters-passover-b/
Also I disagree with this example:
ReplyDelete“Example where ba-erev is at the beginning of the day:
“DEUTERONOMY 16:4 … And no leaven shall be seen among you in all your territory for seven days, nor shall any of the meat which you sacrifice the first day at twilight (Heb ba-erev) remain overnight until morning.”
Dt 16:2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the LORD thy God...
Mk 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover...
Mk 14:12 killed [thuo] the [to] passover [pascha]
Dt 16:2 sacrifice [thuo] the [to] passover [pascha] (Brenton, LXX).
Dt 16:4b neither shall there any thing of the flesh, which thou sacrificedst the first day at even [ba‘ereb], remain all night until the morning.
“the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Ordinarily this would mean the 15th of Nisan, the day after Passover... However, the added phrase, “when it was customary [NIV] to sacrifice the Passover lamb,” makes it clear that the 14th of Nisan is meant because Passover lambs were killed on that day (Ex 12:6). The entire eight-day celebration was sometimes referred to as the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and there is evidence that the 14th of Nisan may have been loosely referred to as the “first day of Unleavened Bread” ” (Walter W. Wessel & William L. Lane, Mark, NIVSB, p.1522).
“The reference to the Passover as the “first day” (v.4) assumes the conjunction of Passover with the Festival of Unleavened Bread... In summarizing the Passover ritual, we have jumped ahead of the text, for the reference to “the first day” links this event with the festival of Unleavened Bread (massot, vv.3-4)” (Daniel I. Block, Deuteronomy, NIVAC, p.388).
I would suggest that the NT referring to the 14th as the first day of unleavened bread had its precedent in Deuteronomy 6:4. The “first day” of 14:12 & 6:4 is the 14th.
In regard to the Rabbi’s comment these Scriptures are appro:
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Ex 12:18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.
Millennial Passover - the Day and the Festival
Eze 45:21 In the first month on the fourteenth day you are to observe the Passover, a feast lasting seven days, during which you shall eat bread made without yeast.
Eze 45:22 On that day the prince is to provide a bull as a sin offering for himself and for all the people of the land.
Eze 45:23 Every day during the seven days of the Feast he is to provide seven bulls and seven rams without defect as a burnt offering to the LORD, and a male goat for a sin offering.
Eze 45:24 He is to provide as a grain offering an ephah for each bull and an ephah for each ram, along with a hin of oil for each ephah. (NIV).
Eze 45:21 On the fourteenth day of the first month you should hold the passover, after which unleavened bread is to be eaten for seven days. The head of state is to provide on that day a bull as a sin offering for himself and all the people in the land. During the seven days of the festival he is to provide as a holocaust to Yaweh seven bulls and seven rams, unblemished beasts, on each of the seven days; also a young goat as a sin offering each day... (Leslie C. Allen's translation, giving the sense).
"[In] the combined passover and festival of unleavened bread in the spring ... [the] ... sequencing ... [of the] ... two-part celebration in vv 21/22/23-24 represents an AB/A'/B' structure. In each case there is some emphasis upon the sin offering. In particular, the passover sin offering has no parallel in the Pentateuch. This emphasis aligns with v 17b and implies the regular need to purify the sanctuary and so protect its holiness from the people's sins" (Leslie C. Allen, Ezekiel 20-48, WBC, p.266).
Ba-erev example in Atonement:
ReplyDeleteLev 23:27 Also the tenth day of this seventh month shall be the Day of Atonement. It shall be a holy convocation for you; you shall afflict your souls, ...
Lev 23:32. It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict your souls; on the ninth day of the month at evening (ba-erev), from evening (ma-erev) to evening (erev), you shall celebrate your sabbath.
Note: The Atonement is on the 10th day. Lev 23:32 gives us the actual duration - from 9th at evening (ma-erev) to the following evening (erev). Thus, the ending period of the 9th is also the starting period of the 10th day. The period (bein ha'arabayim and ba-erev) is between sunset and total darkness. They did not have precise measurement of time. In contrast, today, we can tell that the 10th day of any month starts at 12:00:00am that day, not at 11:59:59pm of the 9th day.
Passover and First Day of Unleavened Bread:
Lev 23:5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight (bein ha'arabayim) is YHVH’s Passover.
Lev 23:6-7 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to YHVH; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.
Note: According to Lev 23, the 14th is the Passover and the 15th is the first Day of Unleavened Bread.
Deu 16:4 And no leaven shall be seen among you in all your territory for seven days, nor shall any of the meat which you sacrifice the first day at twilight (Heb ba-erev) remain overnight until morning.
Note: The verse is speaking of the DUB - seven days without leaven. The first day is referring to the 15th day (read Lev 23:6-7). The beginning period of the 15th day is also the ending period of the 14th (read Lev 23:27,32 again where the verses describe the 10th day of the 7th month as beginning from the ending period of the 9th). The Passover is sacrificed at the ending period of the 14th (after sunset, read Deu 16:6) which is also the beginning period of the 15th. Compare the last part of Deu 16:4 with Ex 12:10.
Deu 16:6 but at the place where YHVH your God chooses to make His name abide, there you shall sacrifice the Passover at twilight (ba-erev), at the going down of the sun, at the time you came out of Egypt.
Note: The time of the Passover sacrifice is described as 'between the two evenings' (Lev 23:5's bein ha'arabayim), 'at twilight/evening' (Deu 16:6's ba-erev) and 'at the going down of the sun' (Deu 16:6). This period is the ending period of the 14th which is also the beginning period of the 15th - the early evening shortly after sunset.
6:34 writes:
ReplyDelete"The period (bein ha'arabayim and ba-erev) is between sunset and total darkness."
As I said before we will have to agree to disagree. For me, Jesus Christ, as a Passover sacrifice, died between the evenings.
If that night was the Passover night, Jesus would had broken one of the ordinances according to Numbers 9:12: “They shall leave none of it [food remains] unto the morning (boqer), nor break any bone of it. According to all the ordinances of the Passover they shall keep it.”
ReplyDeleteThey left early and if Jesus had sinned, all the destinies of humanity would be flushed down the toilet.
https://wulfstein.org/2021/03/28/that-night-was-the-thirteenth/
Anon Mar 27 @9:50pm & @11:24pm,
ReplyDeleteMy first comment in this thread was to defend the Rabbi's statement of 'the night of the 14th is the 15th', and address the bein ha'arabayim. In deference to most people here during this time, I avoided discussing NT and concentrated only on the text of the original Passover. But it seems that we are the only ones reading this thread now, so let us discuss NT …
The gospel of John claims that since Jesus' legs were not broken, it fulfilled scriptures relating to the passover lamb's legs not being broken (Ex 12:46, Num 9:12). If one accepts this logic, what happened to the other requirement of 'without blemish'? According to gospel accounts, Jesus was badly beaten and bruised. Also, he was circumcised which is considered mutilation in the christian bible (Php 3:2). If the requirement that no bones to be broken was taken as a physical type, the 'without blemish' part should also be taken as a physical, not spiritual, type. It should be consistent.
What sin did the original Passover expunge? There was NONE. It was not an atoning sacrifice.
What sacrifice atones for intentional or presumptuous sin? There is NONE. The sin offering is only for unintentional sin (Num 15:27-29). There is NO sacrifice for presumptuous or intentional sin. The sinner is cut off and his guilt upon him (Num 15:30-31).
Examples in Tanakh where blood was/is not needed or required for the forgiveness of sins - 2 Chro 33:10-13 (Manasseh's repentance), 2 Sam 12:13-14 (David's repentance), Jonah 3:10 (Ninevah's repentance), Isa 55:6-9 (sinner's repentance), Deu 30:1-3 (Israel's repentance), Ps 51:15-17 (sinner's broken spirit and contrite heart, see also Isa 66:1-2)
Why would God now require, aside from repentance, a human sacrifice in order to forgive adultery or murder?
Was the original Passover blood for the protection of the entire household? NO. The firstborn was the only target of the death angel (Ex 12:12-13).
What was the lamb to the Ancient Egyptians? Lamb (or goat) was one of Ancient Egypt’s sacred animals which they venerated and worshiped as a deity. By killing the lamb, the Israelites renounced idolatry and demonstrated to God their faith. Read Ex 8:25-26.
11:24 asks:
ReplyDeleteIf that night was the Passover night
Lk 22:7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover MUST be killed.
Lk 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.
Lk 22:11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?
Lk 22:13 and they made ready the passover.
Lk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Lk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
In Luke’s account above passover is mentioned 5 times and implied once
(1) in verse 7 it was noted that it was the day when the passover MUST be killed...
(2) in verse 8 Jesus sent Peter and John to prepare the passover so that they could eat it
(3) in verse 11 Jesus instructs them to ask the goodman of the house where is the guestchamber where Jesus and the disciples would eat the pasover
(4) in verse 13 they made ready the passover
(5) in verse 15 Jesus told the disciples that he desired to eat this passover before he died
(6) in verse 16 it is implied that Jesus would not eat of a passover until the kingdom
to say that this was the 13th is a big ask, especially since Luke said it was the day the passover MUST be killed - was the day changed?
Mt 26:21 And as they did eat...
Mk 14:18 And as they sat and did eat...
To suggest a translation of 22:15-16 that may read:
“With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; but I’m saying to you now, I am forbidden and denied this privilege, and I will no longer eat with you until we’re all in the kingdom of God.”
is also a big ask.
Both Matthew and Mark said “they did eat”. Which would seem to imply that Christ and the disciples did eat the passover that Peter and John prepared, in the guestchamber of the goodman of the house;
or did only the disciples eat the prepared passover as suggested in the translation? but how do you arrive at that from the text.
Could the goodman of the house disposed of what remained?
Very confusing, please explain.
Sorry, I'm not going to play music to the cows!
ReplyDelete1:37 we have been through this argument last year, and you are still making a false claim concerning intentional sin:
ReplyDelete“What sacrifice atones for intentional or presumptuous sin? There is NONE.”
Lev 6:2 If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour;
Lev 6:3 Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein:
Lev 6:7 And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.
“The case describes four ways in which sinners could commit fraud against a neighbour (i.e., any person they dealt with in the course of their day; see 18:20):
1. taking something that had been entrusted to them, for example, wrongly keeping a ‘deposit or a pledge’ (NRSV) given to them for safekeeping (Exod 22:7, 10) or as collateral for a debt (Exod 22:26);
2. ‘robbery’ (NRSV): that is seizing another’s goods by force (cf. Mic 2:2);
3. withholding that which belongs to another, for example, cheating others by not giving them due wages (Deut 24:12-15); and
4. finding property and lying about it, effectively stealing the item from its rightful owner (cf. Deut 22:2-3).
“... significantly, sinners must first correct the wrong against their fellow countryman; repayment is made in full, along with a twenty per cent penalty (v.5). Only after this is done can they bring a reparation offering to the Lord for atonement and forgiveness (v.6 [&7])” (Jay Sklar, Leviticus, TOTC, pp.124-25.
This is my last post to this thread: Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet.
1:37 if you want to be the last person to comment please don’t, as you did last year, use it as a teaching moment to teach me something that I had already mentioned in my post.
Apologies.
ReplyDeleteI said that the last post would be my last post but I realized after sending it I had been misleading in what I presented. I need to make amends.
I should have highlighted 6:3b
Lev 6:3b and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein:
I should have noted that the sin here is “swearing falsely” about fraud.
“3. Intentional but not (necessarily) high-handed sin. The third category of sin may be called ‘intentional but not (necessarily high-handed’ sin. Leviticus provides at least two examples: choosing not to testify about a crime (Lev 5:1), and swearing a false oath (6:1-7). The very nature of these sins indicates that they were intentional; it is therefore not surprising that the ‘unintentional’ language that occurs throughout Leviticus 4-5 is absent in these two cases. But it is also evident that these sins were not ‘high-handed’: the language of Numbers 15:30-31 is also missing here, as is the penalty (being ‘cut off’). Most significantly, sacrificial atonement is prescribed to deal with the sin. In short, along with unintentional sins and high-handed sins, there exists this middle category... [see for more]” (Jay Sklar, Leviticus, TOTC, pp.43-44).
This is my last post to this thread:
ReplyDeleteMe, too!
This is my response to Anon Mar 28 @2:06pm. Even though he already said it's his last post for this thread, I'm still responding ...
ReplyDeleteAnon @2:06pm said, "1:37 we have been through this argument last year, and you are still making a false claim concerning intentional sin:"
Why are you accusing me of making a false claim/statement? I was just repeating what YHVH inspired in the Torah, specifically Num 15:22-31. Read it and pay attention to verses 30 and 31. Just because it did not agree with your beliefs/understanding, you labeled it as false and would rather believe the authors you've been quoting instead of the very word of YHVH.
If you remembered our discussion, you should have remembered what I said regarding Guilt Offering:
"Why would Jesus be the ultimate sacrifice when there's no sacrifice accepted for almost all the intentional/presumptuous sins (e.g. murder)? Only a handful minor intentional sins are allowed to offer guilt/trespass sacrifice Lev 5:1, 6:1-7."
If you have time, please read this short description of Guilt Offering - korban asham.
Notice that there are only six specific cases according to the korbanot website. The first group involves restitution or self-confession. I'm not aware Tanakh mentions anything similar to Islam's blood money as payment for murder.
Anon @2:06pm said, "1:37 if you want to be the last person to comment please don’t, as you did last year,..."
Is this the post you're referring to? If not, please tell me which one.
If yes, how dare you paint it as if you already left the thread and I sneakily made the last comment. The timestamp of my last post was Aug 24 @10:46am in response to your/someone's comment of Aug 24 @3:21am asking me - "Hopefully this question doesn’t offend too much, but it would be good to know where you officially stand.".
Anon @2:06pm said, "1:37 if you want to be the last person to comment please don’t, as you did last year,..."
ReplyDeleteIs this the post you're referring to?
If yes, let us check the timestamps of the last 10 comments (I placed a blank line before each new day's entry):
Aug 15 @2:12pm MINE
Aug 15 @3:44pm YOURS?
Aug 15 @7:05pm MINE
Aug 16 @12:15am someone else
Aug 16 @5:12am someone else
Aug 16 @5:51am someone else
Aug 17 @5:17am someone else
Aug 17 @5:17am someone else
----- 5 days later -----
Aug 22 @2:09am YOURS?
----- 2 days later -----
Aug 24 @8:33am MINE
Yes, my last comment was 2days 6hours 24minutes after your last comment. Why?
My prior comment was on Aug 15 @7:05pm. For the next 2 days after that, 5 comments were made by others discussing something else not related to what we had been discussing. Then, almost 5 days later you posted a comment. Actually, your Aug 22 @2:09am comment was 6days 7hours 4minutes AFTER my Aug 15 @7:05pm comment.
After Aug 17, I thought you were no longer interested in continuing our conversation and the thread had gone cold. I was checking the thread from time to time and saw your Aug 22 @2:09am comment probably only on Aug 23rd (5 days later!!!).
If you were not the one who I labeled as you, please let me know. Also, if this is not the thread you're talking about, please tell me which one. You need to provide proof that I did what you're accusing me of.
Chag HaMatzot