One thing most Americans can probably agree on, whether left or right on the political spectrum, is that the entire 20-year engagement in Afghanistan was a huge monumental failure, a waste of money with little to show for it but a 2 trillion dollar windfall for the military industry.
Nevertheless, it has ended, and while there's plenty of blame to be assigned, Gerald Flurry's Philadelphia Church of God has one of the more nutty interpretations, as usual, making wild guesses disguised as prophetic predictions in their flagship publication, The Trumpet:
You see, this ending of the war is likely going to provoke a "military uprising" by the US military against the Biden administration, leading to a military action that will reinstate Donald Trump as the rightful President, or possibly with him leading a secession of states from the union! ("President Trump could also lead some states to secede from the union. That would lead to some kind of warfare.") "How Afghanistan Could Help Donald Trump Return to the Presidency"
Yes, you read that correctly.
Now, this is not a political post, as I understand that Banned is not a political blog. And Flurry can have his political views as he likes, but he goes far into crazy land when he writes things like this. And, unbelievably, he goes digging for scriptures to somehow support his wide-eyed theories [as quoted in the article]:
“Verse 28 of 2 Kings 14 strongly indicates that Mr. Trump recovers his presidency by some kind of warring—not voting,” Mr. Flurry wrote. “It seems certain to me that this will happen before the next presidential election in 2024—unless there would be some kind of war and voting combined.”
Really, if he thinks the scribal writers of 2 Kings had the slightest interest in trying to guess, or even conceive of, what would happen over 2000 years after their time, he might as well read The Hobbit and try to map events in Middle Earth to modern world events.
The only thing that we can say for sure is that 2024 is definitely going to come along. So we expect a full retraction from the PCG and The Trumpet if (when) no such civil war takes place and Trump is NOT the president, because their private interpretation of scripture is just nutty and wishful thinking on their part.
“Now the rest of the acts of Jeroboam, and all that he did, and his might, how he warred, and how he recovered Damascus, and Hamath, which belonged to Judah, for Israel, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Israel?”
Are the writers not clear enough that this is what "Jeroboam ... did"? Not what Trump or any other celebrity "will do". The writers are explicitly saying that all that "Jeroboam" did, how he warred, recovered "Damascus", for "Israel", is what we wrote here and in the other chronicles. How silly do you have to be to think they're talking about Donald Trump? They clearly specified who they were talking about. Obviously, they were writing history (whether accurate or not is another issue), for purposes relating to their own time and their own issues and problems.
But no, Flurry breathlessly insists, this verse says that Mr. Trump will recover his presidency!
I hate to break it to him, but it doesn't indicate what anybody does in the future. Read it, Gerald - notice that it's written in the *past tense*.
"Jeroboam ... warred... recovered". NOT: "[Some end-time] Jeroboam ... will war .. will recover". Past history, not future prophecy.
In WCG circles you might be able to get away with this, but people who haven't been conditioned to read past tense passages in some sort of superimposed future tense way [why, he's a TYPE of Jeroboam!], can see how ridiculous you sound, Trumpet publishers. You're not going to grow your tithe base that way, at least not in today's world.
On second thought, keep it up, as it will help those all-important tithes to shrivel up...
Submitted by...Michael
A true prophet of God says simply, "thus says the Lord", and then it happens.
ReplyDeleteThis Mr Flurry sprinkles his writing with enough "likely", "could", "would", "it seems" to flag that he's no prophet, just a ringside commentator with some odd ideas that he is inexplicably pushing against his better judgement.
Well little old Joe Biden does not fill me with much confidence about the future.
ReplyDeleteAnd listening to little old Gerry 'whatshisname' even less so.
Gerry, the people have decided at the ballot box to replace Trump with Biden. You are unhappy with the result. Me too.
However, it is called freedom of choice, like it or not.
Now that is a dangerous concept and idea for you isn't it.
Prov 26:4-5 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit. Translation: GF is too far gone, too much out of it, to talk to or write to but he can be talked or written about, in a kind and nice way of course.
ReplyDeleteWe as a nation are most definitely divided and there is much animosity between the factions. I used to nearly vomit every day when I read of Trump's latest activities or his tweets. Now I nearly vomit when I read of Biden's. We have a leadership crisis, and so many citizens support their beliefs with fairy tales, and are immune to correcting them, because they bolster their agenda. Flurry and the other ACOGs are wrong, clueless, and ridiculous, but unless something or someone comes along to reunite us, 1) we've had it as a nation, and 2) it has nothing to do with HWA and the ACOGs.
ReplyDelete5:17 wrote: "This Mr Flurry sprinkles his writing with enough "likely", "could", "would", "it seems" to flag that he's no prophet, just a ringside commentator with some odd ideas that he is inexplicably pushing against his better judgement."
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly how Bob Thiel operates. He is a ringside commentator obsessed by odd ideas and odd theology. From deliberately lying about his elevation as a a church leader to his hundreds of failed prophecies, the man is a fraud.
He is either demon possesed or mentally ill.
He's drunk!
DeleteHe's just trying to salvage his failure earlier in the year. Soon he'll back it up to "the 2024 presidental election", not "sometime before". His ardent readers will happily ignore that he said Trump wouldnt lose at all.
ReplyDeleteAs with most of his other teachings, Herbert Armstrong twisted/perverted the use of typology in prophetic interpretation. Instead of confining its use to the Old Testament types of the work and person of Christ, Herbie applied the principle to himself and the Worldwide Church of God. Unfortunately, in light of the culture's strong attachment to Anglo-Israelism, it wasn't a big leap for Gerald Flurry to come along and mine those same scriptures for types of modern political figures like Trump. However, just as Herbie's perversions of typology didn't age well, Gerald Flurry's twists aren't likely to fair any better! Stay tuned, time will tell.
ReplyDeleteI do not know what will happen or why nor do I care anymore about the acog's or the gov. be they have an R or D for their parties name.
ReplyDeleteAnd no I do not vote nor do I want to slog through the slime pit that politics has become.
Besides I personally believe God's in charge... if u do cool if you do not cool cuz I've learned I do not have to make people believe the slag I do since I woke up to the con job I was being handed.
And now to go find either something boring to do or watch.
l8r
When God makes prophetic statements, they are very different to Gerry's interpretation of Jeroboams life. I suspect he's trying to slow down prophetic events in order to give his grand children time to grow up. Which is very un-Christian considering the suffering in today's world.
ReplyDeleteStill, there's some truth in his assertions. If physical Israel follows spiritual Israel, America will splinter just like the WWCG did on HWAs death. America will be a fragmented, near powerless, third world country.
America will be the DisUnited Banana republics of America.
God forbid that there be some kind of "Military Junta" taking over control of the government.
ReplyDeleteI speak as a conservative too. Should that happen, we would soon devolve into some kind of Argentina or Bolivia quickly. The economy would collapse and a civil war would ensue.
Fortunately, this rambling is a sad attempt for Flurry to "save face" from his wrong prediction, and further proof that "He Aint No Prophet".
I am by no means an expert on the writings of this splinter group. But I did scan an article sometime back and from it identified an hermeneutic that Flurry uses to dip into Kings for prophetic vision. The Books of Kings are classed as the Former Prophets in the section of the OT that in Judaism is referred to as the Nevi'im. For this reason Flurry regards the account of Jeroboam to be a predictive prophetic utterance.
ReplyDeleteThis is what the Jews say about this issue ("The Jewish Study Bible", 2nd edition, p. 429). Comments in parenthesis are mine:
"It is not clear why the first four books (including 1 and 2 Kings) were called "prophets" and how they came to be a part of a larger collection call Nevi'im. Perhaps, the name Nevi'im reflects an awareness that prophets and prophetic activity play important roles in each of the four books (Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings) as well."
Elsewhere Jewish Study Bible refers to the Former Prophets as history. Clearly, the account of Jeroboam is history. If someone wants to read Kings as if he were reading the predictive prophetic writing of Isaiah, for instance, I believe a firm hermenutical foundation must be provided for that - one that is based on more that an ancient scribal classification. Without a substantive and rational hemeneutic, using passages from Kings as predictive prophecy becomes an imposition of meaning rather than a discovery of meaning.
I know that apocalyptic Millerites do not see themselves as bound by the conventions of either Judaism and Christianity. They seem to always take the role of rogue and inspired truth seekers who are disruptors of the effete status quo. But it is simply the case that they are imprisoned by the spirit and conventions of Nineteenth Century Millerism.
******* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
Question for Miller Jones, but first a preface:
ReplyDeleteRegarding the image of Daniel 2:
“The two eastern kingdoms are marked by nobler metals; the two western, by baser; individualization and division appear in the latter, and it is they which produce the two Antichrists” (A. R. Fausset, Daniel, JFB, Vol.2, pt.2, p.420).
“It is helpful to remember that apocalyptic literature is a genre does not share our Western concern for orderly continuity... It is not uncommon for prophetic material to move between type and antitype without calling attention to exactly what is happening” (Robert H. Mounce, Matthew, NICNT, p.222).
1 Macc 1:30b ... he [Apollonius, captain of the Mysians (2 Macc 5:24)] suddenly fell upon the city, dealt a severe blow, and destroyed many people in Israel.
1 Macc 1:60 Women who had their children circumcised were put to death, in keeping with the decree,
1 Macc 1:61 with babies hung from their necks; their families also and those who had circumcised them were killed.
1 Macc 1:62 But many were determined and resolved in their hearts not to eat anything unclean;
1 Macc 1:63 they preferred to die rather than to be defiled with unclean food or to profane the sacred covenant; and they did die.
1 Macc 1:64 Great [megale] affliction was upon Israel.
The OT Antichrist, Antiochus Epiphanes, provides the type for the NT Antichrist, the Beast. The ‘great [megale] affliction’ under Antiochus provides the 'type’ for the ‘great [megales] tribulation’ (Rev 7:14) under the Beast.
Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Christ is most likely referring to Da 12:11 and 9:27.
Da 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
But Da 11:31 was fulfilled by Anticochus thus providing the ‘type’.
So the question regards this comment:
“Instead of confining its use to the Old Testament types of the work and person of Christ”
Are you saying that ‘typology’ only refers to what foreshadows Christ, or something similar?
Anonymous 9/7 @ 6:20,
ReplyDeleteThe prophetic interpretations which you quoted obviously assume typology - that Antiochus Epiphanes was a type of a future leader/actor. As I'm sure you know, there are a great many folks who do not subscribe to this view (I'm one of them). I believe that anyone who teaches or behaves contrary to the teachings and example of Jesus Christ could be considered an antichrist. Hence, I believe that there have been many such individuals down through the ages. Likewise, there are folks who currently fit this profile, and we are likely to have such individuals around until Christ returns.
As for Christ's remarks in the twenty-fourth chapter of Matthew, we must remember that Christ began with this statement about the physical compound that then occupied the temple mount in Jerusalem: "As Jesus was leaving the Temple grounds, his disciples pointed out to him the various Temple buildings. But he responded, “Do you see all these buildings? I tell you the truth, they will be completely demolished. Not one stone will be left on top of another!” In response, his disciples asked him TWO questions: When will this happen? (the destruction of the buildings) and "What sign will signal your return and the end of the world/age?
Of course, we know that the temple compound was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD, and that they did stand in the most Holy place. In trying to understand Christ's answers to their questions, we must remember that they were asking him about distinctly separate events (which they may have incorrectly assumed would happen simultaneously). Hence, I would ask you: Isn't it possible (even probable) that Christ's remarks in verses 15-22 are referring to the events of 70 AD? And, if that is what he was referring to, is it also possible that he was using Daniel's "abomination of desolation" as a frame of reference for a then not too distant desecration of the current temple? Moreover, I'm not the first to point out that many of the warnings and signs which Christ relates in this chapter are in the nature of general observations that could be applied to most of the two thousand years which have elapsed since he actually delivered them. In other words, the context makes clear that not all of these remarks were intended to answer the questions about his return or the end of the age.
So, in answer to your question about the use of typology in these instances, I would say that YES - I am saying that typology refers to those things which foreshadowed Christ and his work. This is the way that the authors of the New Testament used typology to interpret Old Testament prophecies, and I think it is probably prudent to follow their example in this matter. I think Herbert Armstrong and Gerald Flurry provide excellent examples of what can happen when it's used in any other way.
Thanks Miller Jones for your reply.
ReplyDeleteAt least I understand your position. It looks like we will have to agree to disagree.
As we are dealing with ANE culture it creates its own interpretative problems.
When Christ said that not one stone will be left upon another, did it apply to the Western Wailing Wall? if so then it would suggest that it is yet future, with AD 70 providing a ‘type’.
In regard to your question, my answer is only in ‘type’. By the time the Roman military standards stood in the Temple Complex it was too late to flee.
Putting the prophecies of Daniel, Revelation, 2 Thess 2 and the Olivet prophecy together, for me, the antitype is yet future - the time of “the Great Tribulation”:
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of the [tes] great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
The PCG believes the wailing wall is a Roman structure. (They get this from Ernest Martin) That’s is why all of a sudden the “prophecy” about not one stone being left on top of another, is NEVER mentioned anymore. And boy in the 90’s they never shut up about it.
DeleteWe thought we got rid of Hitler, but his replacement is just as bad due to his ineptness and slavish obedience to the radical lefties. It's possible that Hitler will make a comeback, to complete the hijacking and subversion of America, but just not the way Flurry fantasizes.
ReplyDeleteFor the PCG and other COG organizations to constantly talk and write about all of their prophetic ideas shows us at least one thing. They are not teaching the simplicity which is in Christ. Is this the nonsense He was teaching? Where is Trump mentioned in The Book of Revelation or Matthew? I've wasted too much of my life already, just writing this.
ReplyDeleteTo misquote a certain movie... Donald Trump's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy.
ReplyDeleteI've cringed every time United Church of God has published a fanboi piece of some church-approved government leader. Ronald Reagan, Margaret Thatcher, Winston Churchill, Queen Elizabeth. Now I'm seeing UCG members pledging their undying love for Donald Trump as though he's our hope and salvation. It strains my ability to do good manners.
Anonymous 9/8 @ 1:14,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the conversation. I'm certainly not dogmatic about prophetic interpretations. My experiences within Armstrongism have taught me to be more careful with this subject and to never assume that I have it all figured out. In other words, it's OK that we disagree about this - our salvation does NOT depend on our understanding of this stuff. Your comments appear to be thoughtful and reasoned - wish there was more of that!
As you know, the Western or "Wailing" Wall is thought to be a remnant of the retaining wall constructed by Herod to enlarge the surface on top of the Temple Mount - the area where the buildings which made up his temple complex actually stood. That complex of buildings and courtyards is long gone. Hence, for me, it is a bit of a stretch to suggest that Christ's remarks about one stone being left atop another is contradicted by its existence. And, if Christ's remarks in this regard are for some future time prior to his return, then a third/fourth (depending on your perspective) temple will have to be constructed at some point in the future (that's a lot of ifs). At any rate, I loved the imagery evoked by your citations of those verses from the seventh chapter of Revelation.
I don’t get it why Flurry thinks Trump is a type of Jeroboam. I thought Jeroboam was a bad guy who rejected the Davidic throne and then rejected the true God.
ReplyDeleteWell, that depends on which Jeroboam you're talking about. But don't feel bad. Flurry doesn't seem to be sure which one he means either.
DeleteVis-a-vis Pres. Trump coming back to power after being reinstated by a top brass military coup...I find that unlikely.
ReplyDeleteEven the most conservative generals have rolled over (Mattis for example). Like leaders everywhere they seem mostly concerned about prestige, keeping their pension and influence. The military has been all but stripped of good leadership at the highest levels (with exception of rank and file) and they are ardently pushing CRT, mandatory vaccinations etc. This doesn't sound like a military posed to stage a coup to put a former president power.
Anonymous September 9 at 6:54 AM said...
ReplyDelete"I don’t get it why Flurry thinks Trump is a type of Jeroboam. I thought Jeroboam was a bad guy who rejected the Davidic throne and then rejected the true God."
Maybe Flurry is onto somehing, Sounds like a pretty good match, actually.
And while I'm at it, I realize none of us can know the day and the hour and all that, so I'm not going to do any elaborate calculations, but then they aren't required for this prophecy:
Donald Trump will be reinstated as U.S. President at the same time Jesus Christ returns to the earth, whenever that may be.
In spite of Matthew 24:34, this generation may pass before these wonders take place.
Why on earth do you encourage that megalomaniac? If you believe that you belong right there with the rest of the PCG.
DeleteCivil war is probably the only way to save part of America from Communism.
ReplyDeleteRetired Prof.
ReplyDeleteThat is because of your and this blogs assumption that Flurry is PRO Trump.
In reality they are against EVERYTHING, especially humanity and all man has accomplished, yet profitting and freeriding it whenever it fits their purpose, which is sucking the weak dry......
Nck
ReplyDeleteSorry folks but Gerald Flurry is most likely DEMON POSSESSED!! If it quacks like a duck.....🐤
Holy prayer rock, Ole' Ger-bear is right!
ReplyDeleteAfter reading his enlightened prophecy about Trump, the roaring lion, I visited the Drudge Report.
Then, at that site, I mindlessly, yet miraculously, clicked on this headline:
"Venice Film Festival awards coveted Golden Lion after roaring back to life"
https://www.indiewire.com/2021/09/venice-film-festival-winners-2021-1234663899/
Chills ran down my spine when I read, "The Golden Lion went to Audrey Diwan’s abortion drama “Happening” in what jury president Bong Joon Ho deemed a unanimous decision.”
It can only mean that Biden will be aborted unanimously, and Trump, the roaring lion, will be reinstated, just as Prophet Gerry has proclaimed!