Why is Living Church of God and the broader Church of God movement so attuned to Old Testament stories, characters, and books instead of having their readers study the life of Christ and what he said and did? If one wants to grow as a Christian then one would assume they would want to follow the dude they claim they are following. As most LCG members or most COG members what grace, justification, and sanctification mean and they would be at a loss for words, but have the explain the law and they can wax poetic on how wonderful it is. Jesus, not so much. But why worry about Jesus when your time spent thinking makes your mind more like God's (which you will be one day soon and then you won't have to worry anymore about JC because you will be just like him).
Take Time to Think: For many today, the pace of life is frantic and filled with distractions. Yet, Daniel warned that at the end of the age, “many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase” (Daniel 12:4). Jesus also warned, “the cares of this world” can “choke the word” and cause us to miss out on the Kingdom of God (Matthew 13:22). One of the biggest challenges Christians face is the battle that goes on in our minds with thoughts that determine our actions. Solomon wrote, as a person “thinks in his heart, so is he” (Proverbs 23:7). David observed that a wicked person does not seek God and “God is in none of his thoughts” (Psalm 10:4). Yet, David was a man after God’s own heart (Acts 13:22) because he meditated on God’s law daily (Psalm 119:97). David wrote that green pastures and still waters were restful and restorative (Psalm 23). Such places are conducive to thinking and reflecting on God’s creation and his Great Plan for human beings. If we want to grow and prepare for the coming Kingdom of God, we need to take time to think and meditate on God’s word. Read a Psalm every morning or evening and meditate on the subjects mentioned in Philippians 4:8. We can develop the mind of God if we think on these things.
Have a profitable Sabbath,Douglas S. Winnail
I've heard it said by nonACOG theologians that you learn about the character of Jesus by reading the gospels, and about the character of Father God from reading the Psalms.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, advice given by the leaders of any of the splinters, even if is occasionally theologically sound, is tainted for most of us, because we have witnessed the systemic heavy-handedness and abuse inflicted upon the brethren. This tends to give the entire movement a bad or evil vibe. Members are not allowed to object to the abuse, or they are said to have a bad attitude.
ACOG's need to learn how to think period!
ReplyDelete3.39 AM
DeleteI recall a person who attended services for about a year in the 1980s commenting to me that the church was anti thinking. All totalitarianism churches are like that since it's reason that discerns and challenges all their moral compromises.
The anti-thinking ACOGs.
What makes you decree that LCG and the 'broader church of God movement' don't?
ReplyDeleteWho died and decreed NO2HWA as all knowing and all seeing ?
Rerun from March 2010. Maybe Doug should spend more time thinking of fresh and timely guidance for LCG members?
ReplyDeleteThis is a formula and a call to meditate on everything Church that will keep you in the box. No out of box meditating and inquiries allowed.
ReplyDeleteI have read many posts on this blog over the past two years. Many comments are about knowing the truth and what is the true church.. I just read Doug Winnail’s post entitled “members need to think more”. Often Doug writes about how a member needs to study and pray more.
ReplyDeleteDoes studying and praying make a person a Christian? If you study and pray an hour every day, is that person more of a Christian than some one who prays 30 minutes a day.
Does going to church 52 times a year make a person a Christian?
What is more important: studying, studying, studying your Bible or DOING what it says. Would a Christian go to a Baptist church to help a fund raiser for a family that lost their home in a fire. Would a Christian provide a ride to an AA meeting for an alcoholic? Would that Christian sit an offer encouragement to that person tying to overcome that addiction? Would it be a sin to take a Christmas meal to a homeless family? Would you stop and help a family who was having car trouble if it meant making you late for Sabbath services,
What defines a Christian? Asking for a friend.
Jim-AZ
Yes I think that last paragraph would be fruits of the Spirit indeed.
DeleteYes I think that last paragraph would be fruits of the Spirit indeed.
Delete6.33 AM
DeleteJim, you have created a false dichotomy between prayer/bible-study and good works. Both are possible.
Plus you ignore or downplay that prayer and bible study are tools of personal group. This is also downplayed by the ACOGs, probably out of competitive envy, and a hostility to self interest.
The reason why Splinterdom is immersed in the Old Testament is related to their belief that the Law of Moses is on the critical path to salvation. It is interesting that James Tabor noted that the Branch Davidians were also immersed in the Old Testament. I have never had time to investigate why these two cognate branches of Millerism developed in that direction. There seems to be something inapparent upstream of both organizations that resulted in this.
ReplyDeleteI would speculate that it stems from long-standing defense of the Sabbath as a New Covenant requirement but there are branches or Millerism that do not seem to be heavily OT oriented - for instance the SDAs. The OT does have a pedagogical value. And at one time it was on the critical path to the Abrahamic Promises for the Jews. So the OT is important for pedagogy and ethics but to incorporate it into New Covenant soteriology is heretical. And what precisely it is that causes one to think that the OT is not only important but must share the throne with the NC is a mystery.
Even the model for "the work" was always seen through and OT lens. HWA was Elijah and the three campuses of Ambassador College were seen to be like Elijah's schools for the "sons of the prophets." For many people this was an affirming and comfortable fit.
This immersion in the OT, I believe, has militated against the Pre-Eminency of Jesus and his message of the New Covenant. I do not believe this is intentional but is the natural tendency of the way the mind thinks. We move behaviorally in the direction of those things we think about.
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Jim-AZ I answer your questions
ReplyDeleteDoes studying and praying make a person a Christian? If you study and pray an hour every day, is that person more of a Christian than some one who prays 30 minutes a day?.
Luc 18:1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
Luc 18:2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:
Luc 18:3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
Luc 18:4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
Luc 18:5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
Luc 18:6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
Luc 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luc 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Praying and studying is always a sign of faith, today the world is so far from God and even what call themselves Cristians believe that prayer is not necessary ... this is a symptom that there is no faith left on earth .
Does going to church 52 times a year make a person a Christian?
Hacer esta pregunta es igualmente una señal de una fe que se debilita, puesto que Pablo dice que congregarse cada día de reposo es una costumbre de la verdadera iglesia de Dios.
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Good points Jim.
ReplyDeleteHere's a redo of part of Matt 25:
King:
When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?
ACOG member:
We were at home, praying and studying the Bible and COG literature!
King:
Which COG?
ACOG member:
Does it matter?
King:
Good point. Get out of here!
The LCG/Armstrongist come-on:
ReplyDelete*"Time is short!"
*"God's warning must go out"
*"God needs Money"
*"Send that Money to us"
*"This Money must come from working-class schmucks like You"
*"Don't ask how much Money us Leaders are paying ourselves"
Anonymous 12:49 you wrote,"I've heard it said by nonACOG theologians that you learn about the character of Jesus by reading the gospels, and about the character of Father God from reading the Psalms."
ReplyDeleteYou should look further into this. You have expressed in this statement the dualism that afflicts both Protestant Christianity and Armstrongism. It is the idea that the Father and the Son are different in spirit. This violates the principle of Homoousion mentioned in the Nicene Creed. The Father and the Son are of the same essence and same mind. The Gospel of John treats this extensively.
In Protestant Christianity, the common belief is that God is full of wrath towards mankind and would like the destroy mankind. And the Son is the deliverer who through his sacrifice shields us from the Father's wrath by grace. This putative division between Father and Son is mythological.
In Armstrongism, the dualism is confusing. The Father seems to be the God of the OT and Jesus is his Son in the NT. Even though Armstrongists believe that Jesus is the God of both the OT and the NT and published an article about this. In practice, when Armstrongists say "God" they are not talking about Jesus. They are talking about the Father. The don't mean Jesus unless they specifically say "Jesus." In any event, they believe that the Father and the Son are different to the point that they believe in bitheism, a form of polytheism. This was accentuated, I believe, by the continual exhibited distinction between HWA and GTA.
I believe you should learn about the character of Yahweh (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) by reading both the OT and the NT and recognizing that there are two social/cultural milieus, two theologies and two covenants that account for differences.
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ReplyDeleteJim said...
I have read many posts on this blog over the past two years. Many comments are about knowing the truth and what is the true church.. I just read Doug Winnail’s post entitled “members need to think more”. Often Doug writes about how a member needs to study and pray more.
Does studying and praying make a person a Christian? If you study and pray an hour every day, is that person more of a Christian than some one who prays 30 minutes a day.
Does going to church 52 times a year make a person a Christian?
"What is more important: studying, studying, studying your Bible or DOING what it says. Would a Christian go to a Baptist church to help a fund raiser for a family that lost their home in a fire. Would a Christian provide a ride to an AA meeting for an alcoholic? Would that Christian sit an offer encouragement to that person tying to overcome that addiction? Would it be a sin to take a Christmas meal to a homeless family? Would you stop and help a family who was having car trouble if it meant making you late for Sabbath services,"
What defines a Christian? Asking for a friend.
Jim-AZ
Jim-AZ,
Reading this, I thought Joe Tkach Sr. just came up out of grave. Very, very close to exactly what Joe Tkach said in a sermon in the early 90's.
We had one long time member of the church leave that day - she joined the Salvation Army.
As for me it was very convicting to hear that message, but I was restrained from acting upon it and not courageous enough to say no to 4 Deacons and one Elder who were delegation addicted and a minister who insisted my perfect example was to be 45 minutes early and be one of the last ones to leave.
I recall that the Mormons had an expression: When a decision has been made, the thinking has been done. In other words, shut up, sit down and write us a check. We (the leadership) don't need your input.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteNO2HWA posted, Why is Living Church of God and the broader Church of God movement so attuned to Old Testament stories, characters, and books instead of having their readers study the life of Christ and what he said and did?
It's not only the COG but even the Greek Testament writers. How often did they use phrases like 'as it is written', 'that it might be fulfilled which was spoken', etc?
What happens if you remove Hebrew Scripture stories, characters and books from the Christian Bible? Would you also delete the so-called great commandments which were really not original but quotes of the Hebrew Scripture:
Deu 6:4-5 “Hear, O Israel: YeHoVaH our God, YeHoVaH is one! You shall love YeHoVaH your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength."
Lev 19:18b but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am YeHoVaH.
Some of the Hebrew Scripture motifs/'things' found in the Greek Testament:
1. Ezekiel was given a scroll and told to eat it (Eze 2:9-3:3). <> John was given a little book to eat (Rev 10:8-10).
2. Lampstand and two olive trees (Zech 4). <> Two witnesses, lampstands, olive trees (Rev 11:4). Click here for the verses containing 'two olive trees'.
3. Four chariots/horses - red, black, white, dappled (Zech 6:1-7; see also Eze 5:12,17,6:11-12,14:21 'four severe judgments - sword, famine, wild beasts, pestilence'). <> Four horsemen (Rev 6:1-8).
4. Healing waters and trees (Eze 47:1-12). <> River of life and trees (Rev 22:1-2).
Note: Ezekiel has all kinds of trees along the banks of the river bearing fruit every month (v7,12). John has tree of life on either side of the river bearing 12 fruits. The problem with John's version is what happens when there is a 13th month? What would be the fruit? Same as the 12th month or the first month?
5. New heavens and new earth (Isa 65:17; 66:22). <> New heaven and new earth (Rev 21:1).
Note: There won't be a literal new heaven/earth. The word 'new' is not used with a meaning of 'replacement' but as a poetic word to signify renewal.
Isa 66:22-24 “For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before Me,” says YeHoVaH, “So shall your descendants and your name remain. And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says YeHoVaH. “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Click here for all the verses with 'worm not die'. Aside from Isa 66:24, it is only found in Mark 9 (v44, 46, 48).
Mk 9:43-44 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell (Gk geenna, G1067) , into the fire that shall never be quenched—‘Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
According to Strong's G1067, Geenna is a transliteration of the Hebrew term, Gehinnom, 'the valley of Hinnom', located west and south of Jerusalem.
Jesus was aware of the prophecy in Isaiah 66. A future time when men who have rebelled against YeHoVaH will be burned in an unquenchable fire where worms do not die. It is also a time when 'all flesh' will see their corpses burning after coming out of the Temple where they just had worshipped YeHoVaH on a Sabbath.
9:48, you are right if we assume that the prayer and Bible study are neutral, and guided by God. The problem in Armstrongism is that prayer and Bible study were totally guided, managed, and dominated by the organization, incorporating the "fact" that Herbert Armstrong was God's end time apostle, an end time Elijah sparing not in his message to the world. It was little more than daily brainwashing reenforcement. We were also actively taught to treat nonmembers very differently from the church brethren. Words like "deceived" were constantly used, or "people God is punishing", "non-Israelites" "Satan's people", etc.
ReplyDeleteI am sure that was the perspective from which Jim was writing. Thing is, for the sake of brevity, we can't always include every single pertinent fact in our posts.
Anon, October 22, 2021 at 5:43 AM wrote:
ReplyDeleteRerun from March 2010. Maybe Doug should spend more time thinking of fresh and timely guidance for LCG members?
******
If Doug could think about something what would be profitable for him to think about?
How about their Mickey mouse Millennium? Doug winnell and many of the former wcg hirelings expect Jesus Christ, another jesus, to return very soon and reign on Earth for 1,000 years with them, but where is their proof?
Think about it! If Jesus Christ is going to be at His Father's right hand until all the enemies of subdued, and the Last enemy is death, then how can Jesus Christ return "very soon?"
Doug, think about it!
There are over a dozen verses telling us exactly where Jesus Christ is going to be and that is going to be with His AFather for the thousand Year period, with the exception of meeting the rest of the firstfruits in the clouds, and then returning to His Father's right hand, b/c that last enemy has not been put down.
So Doug, think about it, and explain to us how the Mickey mouse Millennium, with Jesus Christ very soon reigning on Earth for 1,000 years, is true, because that is what you preach!
Will Doug take his own advice, and think about it, and perhaps write something new and not some repeated words from the past?
Time will tell...
John
A Chinese friend used to say to me, "Don't think too much" - but I think something was lost in the translation as to what she actually meant.
ReplyDeleteSomeone who does think too much (about is own importance) now traces "Apostolic Succession" from the Twelve apostles down to the Doubly Blessed Prophet.
Here we go with the spiritual KINDERGARTEN again!! Come to the LCG and check your brain at the door!! They will tell you how to think!! Do this, don’t do that!! Remember ladies, it is almost feast time no short skirts or low cut tops!! NO this and NO that!! SIMON SAYS DO THIS; SIMON SAYS DO THAT!! TH I N K!! They are WOLVES in sheep’s CLOTHING!! THINK!! USE the brain you were given at birth. They have INSERTED THEMSELVES between you and God!!… T H I N K on that!! Get a life Winnail!!
ReplyDeleteYo! Spazmodeus at 11:51. Dude, you need to get back on your meds. Ouch! Your keyboard made you look like you are channeling HWA.
ReplyDelete